Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plead guilty :(
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414371 is a reply to message #413512] |
Thu, 17 December 2009 18:06   |
KobraOps
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Apparently. Does anyone read the essays spoony writes?
I give u a B+ for the last one, i didnt read it but it appears you cited your sources well, because you have many quotes. And probably some strong refuting arguments.
And how are smoking and renegade related? Renegade isnt real and smoking is. However studies do show that both Renegade and smoking will cause cancer, so if thats ur angle then u have a good point.
[Updated on: Thu, 17 December 2009 18:06] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414372 is a reply to message #414371] |
Thu, 17 December 2009 18:21 |
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EvilWhiteDragon
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| KobraOps wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 02:06 |
Apparently. Does anyone read the essays spoony writes?
I give u a B+ for the last one, i didnt read it but it appears you cited your sources well, because you have many quotes. And probably some strong refuting arguments.
And how are smoking and renegade related? Renegade isnt real and smoking is. However studies do show that both Renegade and smoking will cause cancer, so if thats ur angle then u have a good point.
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Well actually my point was that smoking and Renegade without pointfix causes brain tumors to evolve rapidly. Although at the moment scientists are researching the possibility the opposite is true: Those who are anti-pointfix already have a brain tumor and therefore their intelligence is already dropping. It's not yet official, but the first clues hint in this direction.
Btw, this discussion ended about where the first faggot remark was made, pretty much right at the start.
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[Updated on: Thu, 17 December 2009 18:22] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414377 is a reply to message #414372] |
Thu, 17 December 2009 19:24 |
KobraOps
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| EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Thu, 17 December 2009 19:21 |
| KobraOps wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 02:06 |
Apparently. Does anyone read the essays spoony writes?
I give u a B+ for the last one, i didnt read it but it appears you cited your sources well, because you have many quotes. And probably some strong refuting arguments.
And how are smoking and renegade related? Renegade isnt real and smoking is. However studies do show that both Renegade and smoking will cause cancer, so if thats ur angle then u have a good point.
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Well actually my point was that smoking and Renegade without pointfix causes brain tumors to evolve rapidly. Although at the moment scientists are researching the possibility the opposite is true: Those who are anti-pointfix already have a brain tumor and therefore their intelligence is already dropping. It's not yet official, but the first clues hint in this direction.
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I beg to differ. Having brain tumors does not necessarily mean a loss in intelligence. Faggot.
But I dont think the pointsfix actually matters cause if people stop playing it isnt going to be because of it.
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414378 is a reply to message #413512] |
Thu, 17 December 2009 19:49 |
ELiT3FLyR
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bla bla, mr i ruined two maps better than field to fix field, which only works because of an extra rule i had to add to make sure nod didnt dominate easy. so how bout that vechile allignment bla bla mod, the one that completes pointfix but only goes to create another glitch that u then dont even tell people about until they find out themselves and try to blow their tank up 5 seconds after they get out only realise its indestructable?
u really didnt need to jump all over this, i cant resist the urge to post when the people patching the game are like, "wtf, changing the pointsystem doesnt change balence" but f00k this argument, the changes are almost all negative but theyre not worth the 4000 pages spent arguing over it.
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414380 is a reply to message #414363] |
Thu, 17 December 2009 20:01 |
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Spoony
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| HaTe wrote on Thu, 17 December 2009 17:49 |
Well, about the infantry shooting tanks thing, usually a heavy armored tank will easily kill an infantry unit, so the infantry unit needs something to get out of defending himself from the tank, points will work.
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that's just downright stupid.
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I suppose maybe that is what EA and Westwood were thinking?
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it's been proven again and again and again that westwood did not intend the point mod to exist.
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It's more logic that what your fake logs with Simpee have at least 
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actually no. they're not intended to be "logs", it's a fictional depiction of how the argument would have happened had the situation been the other way around. as it happens, the arguments within it are pretty good summations of the actual debates that have happened, i.e. absolutely nobody on the anti-pointsfix crowd coming up with even a poor answer to some pretty basic and important questions.
and no, it's not more logical.
| BlueThen wrote |
You can't really instantly conclude that it'll help or worsen clanwars and gameplay. Can't we just take a logical approach here, skip all the politics, and just put it to some testing?
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of course you can't "instantly conclude" that, that's why i've insisted on a great deal of balance testing. as far as clanwars go, the results have been better than i'd hoped; all of my theories turned out to be absolutely right. every game on the new system has gone to the right clan; that was definitely NOT the case before. incidentally, quite a few people on the anti-pointsfix side have took their usual approach. during the initial testing they embarked on a campaign of lies, manipulation and sabotage to try to get it removed from the clanwar servers, then later lied to everybody and said they did test the full pointsfix (untrue).
i'd have loved to "skip all the politics" there, but the anti-pointsfix crowd had other ideas. still, they utterly failed, the pointsfix is where it should be and the clanwars league just had the best month it's had in years. result. still, if people still want to talk about the pointsfix being applied "democratically", then you're not entitled to forget what its opponents did during the testing period.
| KobraOps wrote |
Apparently. Does anyone read the essays spoony writes?
I give u a B+ for the last one, i didnt read it but it appears you cited your sources well, because you have many quotes. And probably some strong refuting arguments.
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as i said, lots of people on the anti-pointsfix crowd have a long history of completely ignoring what the person they're arguing with is saying, often following that up by calling me the ignorant one.
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414381 is a reply to message #414378] |
Thu, 17 December 2009 20:09 |
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Spoony
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| ELiT3FLyR wrote on Thu, 17 December 2009 20:49 |
bla bla, mr i ruined two maps better than field to fix field, which only works because of an extra rule i had to add to make sure nod didnt dominate easy.
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which two maps are you talking about, and which "extra rule"? i think i know, but i'd like to hear it.
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so how bout that vechile allignment bla bla mod, the one that completes pointfix but only goes to create another glitch that u then dont even tell people about until they find out themselves and try to blow their tank up 5 seconds after they get out only realise its indestructable?
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that very briefly used to be the case, but it was tweaked as soon as we found that out, at my behest.
even with the 5-second situation (which isn't the case anymore), it's far better than the previous situation. when i first came back to clanwars, you might remember i joined you and clear and some others in a few funwars using your point mod. the way you guys played was just laughable - getting loads of sakuras in the last minute of cityfly, jumping out of your tank before it dies every single time. you wanna go back to that ridiculous bullshit, you're welcome to it. i'd rather play the original renegade, as we currently are at clanwars.
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but theyre not worth the 4000 pages spent arguing over it.
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i certainly prefer this position to your previous position, which is that any clanwars league using the original points and economy system must be sabotaged, and that no public server must be allowed to use it either because then there'd be less servers with your point mod for you to play on. that old position of yours was perhaps going a little too far, hmmm?
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414401 is a reply to message #414347] |
Fri, 18 December 2009 00:59 |
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Goztow
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Fact is most people against it haven't even tried it. The only real objective and circumstanced argument I ever saw in a pointsfix debate came from Jelly (I think) who said the pointfix made marathon games less enjoyable because there's less money in the game. Spoony then launched a topic with multiple alternative solutions to bring more money into the game in an objective way but this was utterly ignored by all anti pointfix people.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414402 is a reply to message #413512] |
Fri, 18 December 2009 01:51 |
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JohnDoe
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The Pointsfix makes the game more balanced, it just took some of the speed out of clanwars...granted, I haven't played a clanwars in 2 years, but I guess the game is still pretty much over if i.e. your sniper gets shot in the face right away. Renegade is already rather predictable, the pointsfix simply makes it even easier to guess the opponents' cash supply. In a way, it made the game worse by making it better in theory. I can't comment on the harv blocking and jumping out of vehicles stuff...just out of curiosity, does that include blocking your opponent's harv?
lol
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414408 is a reply to message #414402] |
Fri, 18 December 2009 03:49 |
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Spoony
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| JohnDoe wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 02:51 |
The Pointsfix makes the game more balanced, it just took some of the speed out of clanwars...granted, I haven't played a clanwars in 2 years, but I guess the game is still pretty much over if i.e. your sniper gets shot in the face right away. Renegade is already rather predictable, the pointsfix simply makes it even easier to guess the opponents' cash supply.
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oddly enough, the opposite is true. a lot of new strats have opened up. you speak of cityfly and wallsfly - you see more early rushes now, remote rush gambits, multiple lights, the odd MRLS etc etc etc. there's more than one way of playing the map now than just saving for an orca and a havoc...
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I can't comment on the harv blocking and jumping out of vehicles stuff...just out of curiosity, does that include blocking your opponent's harv?
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the main gist of the rule is that you're not allowed to block your own harv. this has done wonders for field and under, works well on cityfly too.
you can hinder the enemy harv, but i did disallow that crap on complex/islands where you wedge the enemy harv next to the door.
| Goztow wrote |
Fact is most people against it haven't even tried it. The only real objective and circumstanced argument I ever saw in a pointsfix debate came from Jelly (I think) who said the pointfix made marathon games less enjoyable because there's less money in the game. Spoony then launched a topic with multiple alternative solutions to bring more money into the game in an objective way but this was utterly ignored by all anti pointfix people.
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mmhmm.
what's sad is it's perfectly possible to keep your economy stable so long as you play it smart. most people have learned so many bad habits thanks to the points bug that they don't play smart. they say odd things like: if your base is under siege and you can't shoot the meds with a nod soldier, how are you supposed to get money? stop and think about that for a second, these people have been playing this game for years, but you wouldn't think so. i mean, they spend half the game shooting stuff they don't damage, and then they wonder why their harv never gets back and why they lose buildings all the time.
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| Re: beta test TT patch [message #414409 is a reply to message #414259] |
Fri, 18 December 2009 03:55 |
Sean
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Why not play Rene the way we're supposed to?
It might be 'unfair' in some people's opinions, but that's how the game as made.
No need for any addon pointfixs imo.
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[Updated on: Fri, 18 December 2009 03:55] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: beta test TT patch [message #414411 is a reply to message #414409] |
Fri, 18 December 2009 04:28 |
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Spoony
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| Azazel wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 04:55 |
Why not play Rene the way we're supposed to?
It might be 'unfair' in some people's opinions, but that's how the game as made.
No need for any addon pointfixs imo.
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the pointsfix IS how the game was made, it IS the way we were "supposed" to play. the bug that allows you to get points and money for absolutely no reason, that is the addon, that is the mod. it does not even have the benefit of being there on purpose, nobody chose to put it there.
check my semi-hypothetical conversation near the bottom of page two; if that does not convince you of how ridiculous the points mod is, i do not think you are capable of being convinced.
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Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414416 is a reply to message #414407] |
Fri, 18 December 2009 06:06 |
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JohnDoe
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| Goztow wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 03:40 |
Those special crates also make the game less predictable, that doesn't mean they make the games any better...
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Are you really this stupid? Unpredictable and random aren't the same thing...I don't think you're in a position to argue about clanwars, anyway.
lol
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414420 is a reply to message #414416] |
Fri, 18 December 2009 06:26 |
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Goztow
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| JohnDoe wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 14:06 |
| Goztow wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 03:40 |
Those special crates also make the game less predictable, that doesn't mean they make the games any better...
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Are you really this stupid? Unpredictable and random aren't the same thing...I don't think you're in a position to argue about clanwars, anyway.
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Those crates aren't less random than the points you get for shooting a med tank with a rifle soldier, tbh.
Seeing as i played clanwars with both points bug and points fix and that I've played them both more recently than 2 years ago, I'd say I'm actually in a much better position to talk about it than you are...
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414421 is a reply to message #414415] |
Fri, 18 December 2009 06:27 |
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Spoony
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| JohnDoe wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 07:02 |
I guess I'll just have to play a clanwar to see if things have changed for the better.
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aye, and there's never been a better time to play clanwars. i can say with utmost candour that i enjoyed last month's league more than any other league month ever... (this is going back to nov/dec 2003?) great competition between the top clans, everyone played fairly, no dodging at all, nobody tried pushing, were barely even any AR's, and almost nobody worth mentioning was suspected of cheating. and like i said, every single clan game has gone to the team that deserved it. i've never seen an undeserved win since the new system was put there. i saw plenty of them over the years before that.
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Wouldn't the no harv block rule make it much more difficult to camp in base with ramjets regardless of the pointsfix?
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well, the reasoning behind the no-harvblock rule is along the same lines as some of the arguments in favour of the pointsfix - promotion of aggressive play rather than defensive play, which we know was supposed to be the game's general gist anyway.
on maps like field and under, it's not enough anymore for gdi to just take the field early on (usually a given unless they really fuck up the harv fight), kill the harv a few times then fall back and camp for the rest of the game with the harv blocked. previously nod had a bugger of a time just breaking even because they'd have to move all the way up instead of just MRLS at the back hills etc from gdi. now you've actually got to hold the field, and moving further up to hit buildings is much more worthwhile then staying further back to kill the harv every time - as it should be, given the greater risk and the more skill required to stay alive.
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[Updated on: Fri, 18 December 2009 06:30] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: beta test TT patch [message #414431 is a reply to message #414419] |
Fri, 18 December 2009 09:15 |
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ChewML
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| EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 07:12 |
| Azazel wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 11:55 |
Why not play Rene the way we're supposed to?
It might be 'unfair' in some people's opinions, but that's how the game as made.
No need for any addon pointfixs imo.
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Yea, let's go back to v1.00 of ren, and abandon those stupid planes and what not.
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And keep the PT bug (which may be a good rule to implement against into CW, idk how big of a problem it may or may not be). And keep blue hell, taunt falling, the bug that shows Nod new vehicles in the middle of most maps, and invisible C4... and any other stupid bug in Renegade that is known of... Just because it was made that way does not mean it was supposed to be that way.
| GoldDrag wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 05:15 |
Lol the game is already shit with the graphics,
making it nicer with skins is the only way to
make it a cooler game imo, and skill ofc.
Anyway, I use skins to give Renegade a new look
every month. So it doesn't bore me out.
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This topic is about gameplay balance, not about how it looks. I use skins aswell, but that doesn't mean I don't agree with pointfix...
| Spoony wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 08:27 |
| John Doe: |
Wouldn't the no harv block rule make it much more difficult to camp in base with ramjets regardless of the pointsfix?
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well, the reasoning behind the no-harvblock rule is along the same lines as some of the arguments in favour of the pointsfix - promotion of aggressive play rather than defensive play, which we know was supposed to be the game's general gist anyway.
on maps like field and under, it's not enough anymore for gdi to just take the field early on (usually a given unless they really fuck up the harv fight), kill the harv a few times then fall back and camp for the rest of the game with the harv blocked. previously nod had a bugger of a time just breaking even because they'd have to move all the way up instead of just MRLS at the back hills etc from gdi. now you've actually got to hold the field, and moving further up to hit buildings is much more worthwhile then staying further back to kill the harv every time - as it should be, given the greater risk and the more skill required to stay alive.
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^ C&C = Command and Conquer, not Command and Camp. In the old C&C games you didn't just build a base and defend it, you didn't win till you killed the other base. The only time there were timelimits was in the story mode, but in the skirmish mode which is basically what we play in Renegade you played till one or the other was dead. Now I don't much like to play marathon, but I hate the fact that some people would rather let their base die to camp and win by points.
The only problem with turning the RTS game into a FPS is all the units have minds of their own now. So instead of one person deciding a certain tank rush, you got different people doing whatever they want. So if you say stank rush on hourglass, you may get 6 stanks together, but a lot of times 2 of them will go off to hill or other side and show themselves.
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| Re: beta test TT patch [message #414433 is a reply to message #414431] |
Fri, 18 December 2009 10:19 |
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Spoony
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| Chew wrote on Fri, 18 December 2009 10:15 |
And keep the PT bug (which may be a good rule to implement against into CW, idk how big of a problem it may or may not be)
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i'm not yet decided on that, probably best to just try it.
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^ C&C = Command and Conquer, not Command and Camp. In the old C&C games you didn't just build a base and defend it, you didn't win till you killed the other base. The only time there were timelimits was in the story mode, but in the skirmish mode which is basically what we play in Renegade you played till one or the other was dead. Now I don't much like to play marathon, but I hate the fact that some people would rather let their base die to camp and win by points.
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i do like the system of timed games and the possibility of point victories (indeed i prefer timed over marathon), but it only works so long as offensive play trumps defensive play and you can't get points for no reason... *cough*
it literally amazes me that more people can't see the points bug for the huge balance problem it is. getting points for absolutely no reason - < that sentence alone ought to ring alarm bells for anyone who truly cares about the game being balanced.
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 Re: Pointsfix debate - cleared - I plaid guilty :( [message #414435 is a reply to message #413512] |
Fri, 18 December 2009 10:41 |
Hitman
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ss u better come back or ELSE
"aye, and there's never been a better time to play clanwars. i can say with utmost candour that i enjoyed last month's league more than any other league month ever..."
that's because u played with me!
ps: if u want to keep playing with me, i suggest u give me a valid renegade serial 
[Updated on: Fri, 18 December 2009 12:28] Report message to a moderator |
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