Renegade Public Forums
C&C: Renegade --> Dying since 2003™, resurrected in 2024!
Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » The Pointsfix and the Game Listings
Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406382 is a reply to message #406339] Fri, 09 October 2009 18:10 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Spoony is currently offline  Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
Karma:
General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator
Cunin wrote

Well that was said even when pointsfix was used in NS, but years passed and the ladder is still rewarding point-whorers, so let us have some doubts about that rebalancing work.
Also renegade isn't a deathmatch game, I don't think that a ladder for this game can be made, a ladder that takes account of what players are doing instead of how many points they earned.
Ladders can still be used for other modes, but for AOW I don't think that a really balanced ladder could ever be made.

I've been putting a great deal of thought into making the new ladder as good as it can be, we'll probably have some announcements about it fairly soon once we get a bit closer.

kadoosh wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 12:10

Are you willing to admit you knowingly bring it on yourself?

I will assert that I will say what I think even if a few retards are gonna freak out over it. I don't think the word "admit" is appropriate there... it's not an admission, it's an assertion.

kadoosh wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 12:10

You post, or visit, a place you aren't welcome for what ever reason. People there generally don't like you, or the way you conduct your opinion pieces. You know for a damn fact your opinion is going to start a flame war there.

None of this constitutes fault on my part.

Imagine you play on a particular server and the regulars hate you for nothing more than the fact you always win, and let's assume you don't play unfairly in any way; you don't cheat, you abide by the rules and you don't talk shit to anybody. But everyone despises you because they can't stand losing and it's what always happens to them when you join.

Should you be criticised for this? Just because it freaks them out, does this put you at fault?

kadoosh wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 12:10

As my example you chose to ignore, You walk into a Bar and try to tell them their lifestyles are wrong then wonder why you are on the verge of being barred from there.

Well, I don't think comparing the Jelly community to a gay bar is a particularly good analogy... a gay bar is probably friendlier.

kadoosh wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 12:10

You put yourself at fault for putting yourself in the situation. If you need me to elaborate I will later.

see above re: a renegade server

kadoosh wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 12:10

I'm starting to feel like a broken record here. You Entered an establishment you are not welcome in. They haven't banned you so you are able to do so. However you continuously post things that you know will agitate them. Pointsfix, something about CW.cc here or there that you know they don't care about or want to hear. This puts you at fault as you are the instigator.

Everyone else is always talking about the pointsfix. It's fairly rare I actually start the debate. I did start the recent thread about the ladder, but that's something that was totally new. As for talking about CW, clearshot started that - he wanted to make the ladder look bad somehow, so he made up a bunch of ridiculous lies about my history on clanwars.cc. I just caught him out.

Well, yes, I suppose if someone tries that kind of character assassination against you and you catch him red-handed, you probably will agitate him.

kadoosh wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 12:10

I know nothing of this so I won't even bother getting involved.

You kinda already did; "However you continuously post things that you know will agitate them. Pointsfix, something about CW.cc here or there that you know they don't care about or want to hear."

kadoosh wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 12:10

If you don't want to see him lynched then why bring it up?

The explanation is in the post you just quoted. I just find it very telling their lack of anger towards msgtpain... as prulez said, you complain about what you care about.

kadoosh wrote on Fri, 09 October 2009 12:10

As I said they will flame you there apparently for saying Hi. What makes you think the will read past title=Spoony and give 2 shits what you say? My best advise to you is stay away from there.

Thanks for the advice, I think I'll take it.

Roni wrote

The truth is that you don't have better judgment than Jelly or his community. He is still running a successful community that you or I are not. I am sure you will come up with some bs story about how the community didn't want pointfix so they sabotaged your CC league. Please stfu with your rants about being a failure as a leader.

Clanwars was doing OK when I left Renegade to look after a relative with cancer. If these priorities make me a "failure as a leader", I suppose I must accept that. But that's a low blow even by your standards, roni.

Roni wrote

You complain about having a pure server up on the top list but you fail to even pursuade Crimson(who happens to have a top listed name) to do this and she is part of TT. You can't even get that server owner on your own committee to agree with your opinions.

What a hopeless argument. N00bstories has been there since before I even bought the game.

Roni wrote

He has lied over and over about what people are stating as opinions

Must you further dismantle your already-shaky credibility on this forum with your false accusations?

Roni wrote

and he just can't fathome the thought that people actually enjoy the game the way it was designed and rolled out to the Renegade community.

Um yes I can, that's why I support your right to play without pointsfix.

Roni wrote

No one is stopping Spoony from having a pure server. No one stopping Spoony from anything.

Except for that little episode when I wanted to use the pointsfix in the clanwars league, and a small group of cheaters actively sabotaged it... and you supported them over me. You can say you support a community's choice of pointsfix or not, but you've already proven you don't.

PapaElbo wrote

Quote:

You can tell a sentence is gonna be bullshit when this is how it starts.


Or, i could have just been tired at 4am and that is why the response didnt match the quote. Again you have invented a fiction in your head just to make me look stupid and posted that instead of responding to what i actually wrote.

So once again it's my fault your posts don't make sense? Jeez.

PapaElbo wrote

Why should i have to go back and pull specific quotes out? I dont keep copies of everthing or links to specific posts. If anyone is even still bothered with reading this thread then they will know what i am referring to. I certainly shouldnt have to point it out to you Spoony.

I didn't ask for links, just examples. Thankfully you're about to give them.

PapaElbo wrote

Random incidents - your clanwars baggage, mgstpain, your assertion that the jelly community are all bullies.

Seemingly unrelated issues - clanwars, TT patches, the pointsfix, pure servers, your new ladder vs the Jelly Community and Jelly's A00 nicks.

ok.

clanwars? this could mean one of two things.
1. clearshot (jelly moderator) lying to the community again and again and again to try to make me look bad because this is the only way he could think of to criticise the ladder.
^^ since he brought this up, i fail to see why i'm at fault here. all i did was prove that every single word he said was a lie.
2. what happened when i wanted to use the pointsfix in clanwars. this is not irrelevant at all, because i mention it in reply to people saying "we just want to use the pointsfix in our community spoony, why cant you accept that?" to which the answer is: i do accept it, it's fine with me, but when i wanted to use the pointsfix in MY community and a bunch of cheaters sabotaged it, you were on their side instead of mine. That's not irrelevant, that's an incredibly damning rebuttal to someone else's bullshit.

msgtpain is irrelevant. yes, indeed... most of jelly thinks the same. nobody really minded what happened there, compared to the outrage at my having differing opinions on the pointsfix and whatnot

new ladder? is that irrelevant? we're trying to revamp the official ladder and i'm just telling people my ideas. obviously a lot of people cared about the ladder, otherwise they wouldn't have gotten so angry at it not being the way they wanted. to them, it's not irrelevant.

PapaElbo wrote

Drawing your own conclusions - see your original post for that one. It is not an objective assessment of the situation, it is a diatribe of false invention, one sided opinionation and conclusions based upon fiction stated as fact.

if that were the case, one would think you wouldn't have such a hard time refuting it.

PapaElbo wrote

If you want to do it right, then get someone who is independant, get them to post the problem (if there even is one) without prejudice or favor and then discuss it properly - preferably in private with the other server owners but certainly in public if that is the preference.

ah, the jelly community tries to think of another way to avoid answering the criticism. "get someone else to say it."

PapaElbo wrote

Quote:

Besides, plenty of the Jelly community do this to me all the time, they've done it several times in this thread, and they usually get caught lying in the attempt. You don't seem to mind that.


So its an eye for an eye then Spoony? Nice responsible and mature attitude.

no, because i don't accept that i'm doing it.

you said: spoony does X.
i said: no i'm not, but the jelly community are.
you then say: HAH! SO YOU'RE DOING IT OUT OF REVENGE!
me (very slowly): no, i'm not doing it at all, but your friends are and you don't seem to mind.

PapaElbo wrote

Plus a little invention again. How do you know what i mind or dont mind.

I only see one person you're currently furious at.

PapaElbo wrote

Quote:

Oh, so you admit it's NOT justified then?

Oh, so you admit you DO jump to conclusions then?

Sidestepping the question yet again.

PapaElbo wrote

Let me go through it again. I said you bring it on yourself becasue you know the attitudes of most people at Jelly. You are intelligent enough to know what response you will receive whether it is on the pointsfix, about clanwar issues or just general chat or catching cheats. I didnt say it was justified. I also didnt say it was unjustified.

You provoke people to be extreme in their opinions (probably deliberately) becasue if they were not 100% absolutely sure, you would pick them apart. So, i believe, you reap what you sow. That is all.

So in a nutshell your argument is: people treat you like shit even though you don't do anything wrong, but this still means it's your fault because you still post there knowing what a bunch of twats they are, no matter how mature and civilised your posts are by comparison?

Well, I suppose that does make a wild flailing kind of sense (though you really need to go out of your way to see it), but one would think there are far better targets for criticism here?

See my response to kadoosh re: renegade server.

PapaElbo wrote

If you come to a community and start a thread about something you know will cause problems then you are deliberately asking for trouble and therefore, you are by definition a disruptive influence to that community.

So to take the most obvious example, would you rather I didn't tell them my plans for the ladder at all?

PapaElbo wrote

Quote:

Quote:

Who is treating you with contempt and why is the level astonishing?


Are you blind?


No. Do you tend to over-exaggerate? Quite possibly! Also, please keep this greivance in perspective. When you say "the Jelly Community" you probably mean the handful of clanwars players who frequent the jelly servers. Not the ENTIRE community.


I see various people coming in here and trying to respond to your claims regarding the Jelly community. If you feel like you are being treated with contempt then i would refer you to the second part of the above quote. Why would this be astonishing considering the magnitude of what you are proposing to do to us?[/quote]
I wasn't talking about this forum, I was talking about the jelly forum. As for trying to excuse it by this current topic, perhaps you can then explain the fact that it's been happening for a year or more.

PapaElbo wrote

Quote:

No, I didn't say I would particularly enjoy a lynch-mob aimed at msgtpain.

I said I'm rather surprised at the Jelly community's apparently total indifference to a moderator cheating while being a moderator, and continually lying to everyone to cover himself while doing so. But when they see someone with different opinions on the pointsfix, or someone daring to speak out about their control of the gamelistings, grab a stick and get in line, eh?

So, you are surprised at the lack of a lynch-mob aimed at msgtpain? Nice mature and responsible attitude.

You turned that post - a very telling statement about the true priorities of the Jelly community - into an argument against me?

I almost feel like commending you on the extraordinary amount of logic you must've had to suppress to do that.

PapaElbo wrote

You cant compare a reaction to say a mod who was caught cheating to a mod who has just advocated the forced removal of our server's nicks for the benefit of this mods "other" community of which he is also a senior member.

So let's ignore all posts that were made after I started this topic and just focus on the ones before it. It's not like this thread turned the Jelly community from courteous towards me into frothing lunatics. The mouths have been foaming for some time.

PapaElbo wrote

I became aware of you Spoony when i first came to Jelly and admired your level of commitment to the job and how you would calmly and objectively put your point across in each case. But, lately you have been losing it and in this thread particularly your calm objective attitude has gone completely out the window with the first post.

No, it hasn't. My method of argument has not changed in the slightest.

PapaElbo wrote

And here you are, stabbing our community in the back

No? Just criticising the a00 monopoly.

PapaElbo wrote

I just think if you had been more objective and had not made up your own conclusions in your original post, then we wouldnt be here 13 pages later talking more about you rather than your issues.

It was as objective as any other post of mine, including the ones you "admired". Since you now feel you're on the receiving end and this is the only thing that's changed, let's not have you telling me to be objective again, eh?

PapaElbo wrote

Quote:

That's not the impression I get.

Well, it is the impression i get. Its not really that hard to understand.

Roni can't be that bright, then.

PapaElbo wrote

Quote:

Read what I said to Roni. He couldn't think of a response and was too humiliated to try... see if you can do better.
I have no clue what you mean by this? Is it this?

It's what i said to Roni about what happened when I decided to use the pointsfix. it was sabotaged by a group of cheaters through a campaign of lies, manipulation and rigged polls. Roni supported the saboteurs instead of the admin. He was not alone in this view; quite a few others did too.

People say they want each community to have a choice, pointsfix or no. But when people support the cheaters who subvert a community's decision, they instantly destroy their own credibility to say this.

PapaElbo wrote

Quote:

Has it ever occurred to you that there isn't actually anything wrong with me disagreeing with you on something?

Under normal circumstances, there wouldnt be anything wrong with you disagreeing with me or anyone else for that matter.

Whoops. What a crippling blow to your earlier argument.

PapaElbo wrote

Quote:

I personally couldn't care less about how Jelly servers are run


Untrue. Jelly is supposedly irresponsible with their servers and their "monopoly" must be halted!! No?

No, because my arguments to support the position I expressed in this thread don't need to include Jelly servers being run poorly.

PapaElbo wrote

Quote:

or even how the forums were run (it really doesn't bother me that the community's full of bullies who treat people like shit when you've done nothing wrong to them).


Untrue. Gross exaggeration. One or two idiots does not consitute a community of bullies.

I'm starting to think you have a huge blindspot. Go look at the Jelly forums.

PapaElbo wrote

Quote:

I only care about their strangehold on the game listings and their fanatical inability to even maturely debate the issue at all.


I think everyone has a fanatical inability to debate with you Spoony. Did i not try to maturely debate with you?

Since you used the word "try", I suppose I have to say yes. To the best of your abilities, I've no doubt.

PapaElbo wrote

Quote:

"I only care about your threats to steal Jelly's server nicks for your own purposes"
Untrue.


How so? Please enlighten me on what i care about.

No, I said it was untrue that I threatened to steal Jelly's server nicks for my own purposes. That's a sentence which contains almost as many errors as it does actual words, which is almost praiseworthy in its limited way.

PapaElbo wrote

"and the bad mouthing of my community on these forums"
Not only untrue but grossly hypocritical.

How so? Please enlighten me on what i care about.

Once again, the thing I said was untrue was "the bad mouthing of my community", not "you care about this".

PapaElbo wrote

The Jelly Community, in your view, holds too much "power".

Yes.

PapaElbo wrote

They have committed no crime to justify your criticism of this "power".

Read what you just said.

A crime is not necessary to justify criticism of power. It is legitimate to say "one single community shouldn't have this authority" even if they aren't abusing it.

PapaElbo wrote

You just think that this "power" would be better of in the hands of the group you represent. TT.

Yes, and the evidence supports it.

Once again... when TT is criticised about the pointsfix, we went to extraordinary lengths to accommodate different viewpoints, and eventually gave the community everything they wanted.
When Jelly is criticised about their game listing monopoly, they say: fuck off, we don't have to explain ourselves to you.

This alone says a great deal about who's in a better position to handle this power.

PapaElbo wrote

The server nicks were farily obtained through the established procedure of the time.

Frankly, I don't believe the established procedure of the time bore the Renegade game listings in mind.

PapaElbo wrote

You have a problem with a small number of the community - mostly clanwars or anti pointsfix people who you provoke specifically to create disruption within the community. That is neither responsible nor mature.

I don't provoke anybody specifically. I will certainly defend myself when I'm attacked, though, as I continually have been at Jelly for a year or so.

PapaElbo wrote

You also forgot:

3. you could be doing this because you want to promote your own style of gameplay, have your own servers with the pointsfix at the top of the listings.
4. you could be doing this becasue you are pissed at Jelly or the community at large and want some kind of revenge.
5. you could be doing this becasue you want TT to have a more visible role in the community considering the lack of updates over the last two years.

That's right. I certainly could have mentioned these other false accusations the Jelly community made as an excuse for not facing the actual criticism.

PapaElbo wrote

Quote:

TT considers itself answerable to the community. We proved that with the pointsfix. Jelly has made no secret at all of the fact they DON'T consider themselves answerable to the community.


Well, maybe because Jelly are a member OF the community so with your logic, TT should be answerable to Jelly. No?

Um, we actually DID prove we are answerable to the wider community, including jelly. jelly's proven they don't consider themselves answerable to anybody. i don't think you're acknowledging this extremely important point.

PapaElbo wrote

TT is an organisation in charge of XWIS, the TT patch and the community forums and probably a ton of other stuff i have no idea about. Since TT is a merger of several teams, projects and companies then sure, ill accept TT as the impartial community leader. The second they start up their own servers, then they become competitors and therefore no longer impartial.

Ah, right, so impartiality is the issue. Therefore the names are better in the hands of the Jelly servers, who use as many as they like and give them out based on their own personal preferences.

Sigh...

[quote title=PapaElbo wrote]
Quote:

Precisely because we're better than the Jelly community.

Opinion is not fact and "better" is a subjective term. Better how?

see above re: far better track record in terms of accountability, approachability, maturity, unbias...

PapaElbo wrote

Oh, this arrogance is really annoying me. You claimed responsibility over something that required none for your own personal gain.

If this is your honest viewpoint, go back to the very start of this thread and start again.

PapaElbo wrote

You stired up tensions in the Jelly Community right before coming here, possibly deliberately.

Is this another case of "you post there where you know the community's full of twats who'll flame you even though you do nothing wrong, which in fact means you're doing something wrong by saying anything at all no matter how civilised"?

PapaElbo wrote

You have proven nothing except how we can expect TT to deal with the community in future.

Indeed.

After it's been made perfectly apparent how utterly unqualified Jelly is to handle this power, and how much better TT would be, we still probably aren't going to act upon it even though we seem to have the power to do so.

For the second time in a row, I'm the "better man". And yes, you can continue to expect this level of reasonableness and maturity from me in the future, no matter how contemptibly your community treats me.

Unleash the Renerageâ„¢

Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful

[Updated on: Fri, 09 October 2009 18:50]

Report message to a moderator

[Message index]
 
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Read Message
Previous Topic: Most of the users are from Russia?
Next Topic: Is it really Michael Jackson?
Goto Forum:
  

[ Syndicate this forum (XML) ] [ RSS ] [ PDF ]

Current Time: Sun Jun 29 14:09:28 MST 2025

Total time taken to generate the page: 0.07412 seconds
.:: Contact :: Home ::.

Powered by: FUDforum 420.69.
Copyright ©2001-2023 FUDforum Bulletin Board Software