Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » The Pointsfix, Tildeth's poll, Homey, and the Jelly community
| The Pointsfix, Tildeth's poll, Homey, and the Jelly community [message #405005] |
Fri, 02 October 2009 13:08  |
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Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
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General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
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what i'm about to reveal is certainly not the worst stain on the anti-pointsfix-crowd's pants, but it's probably the funniest.
quick summary of what happened.
- discussion took place on renegadeforums about whether each community should have the choice whether to use the pointsfix or not.
- spoony says they should. TT says they should. tildeth says they should. trouble is tildeth was lying through his teeth, he actually opposes the idea - he proved it in the case of clanwars.cc.
i shall be specific here. the rightful admin+league owner - that's me - decided i wanted to use the pointsfix in the clan ladder. i went to great lengths to encourage debate on the subject. unfortunately a few individuals had other ideas.
they couldn't debate the actual subject at all, so instead they resorted to character assassination, endlessly lying to everyone to try to influence opinion, outright disregarding and even subverting the wishes of the duly appointed renadmin, and most crucially, lying to the server hosts to try to get the pointsfix removed - because they knew honesty wouldn't get the job done. later, i tried again to get the pointsfix implemented, this time in its full incarnation - i.e. with the vehicle-alignment fix - and the community outright refused to even try it. later still, they lied about this saying they DID test it.
now, you can take one of two sides here. you can -a- side with the duly appointed renadmin and rightful owner of the league in his league decisions, or you can -b- support the people (all of whom had really shitty reputations when it comes to actually following the rules) who resorted to such despicable tactics to subvert the admin's wishes.
if it's -b-, and it was -b- in tildeth's case, well, that's your opinion. but it proves four things.
1. you don't place the slightest value on honesty or mature debate.
2. you don't place the slightest value on fair play (again, pretty much everyone involved in the above behaviour has some rap sheet or other)
3. you don't have the slightest respect for the authority of the only person who can be bothered hosting a league for you
4. you DON'T support an individual community's right to choose whether to use the pointsfix or not.
4 is the important one. people say: each community ought to choose for itself whether to use the pointsfix or not. i agree. TT agrees. BUT if you look at what happened at clanwars and you side with -b- instead of -a-, you DON'T agree. you just don't.
anyway, back to the present. this debate over whether the pointsfix should be mandatory or optional. clearly it should be optional (although it should replace the pointsbug as the default system).
- after losing this argument, tildeth changes the subject and says MORE PEOPLE LIKE THE POINTSBUG THAN THE POINTSFIX SPOONY!
- spoony says so what? we're giving servers a choice whether to use it. some will use the pointsfix, some will use the pointsbug, players can choose where to play, and everybody's happy. (the only problem here is the jelly community's unwarranted and unchallengeable 4-year-long chokehold on the game listings, ensuring that no new server has a hope of flourishing)
- tildeth says HAHA YOU'RE SCARED OF THE FACTS! MAKE THE POLL! WE WILL WIN BY AN OVERWHELMING MAJORITY!
- spoony again says: so what even if this IS true? but ok, go ahead and make a thread, but it must be a thread where people publicly reply to it, NOT an anonymous poll (otherwise people can use multiple accounts, and the anti-pointsfix crowd has already been caught doing this)
- the thread is created by tildeth. he boasts in two separate threads on the jelly forums boasting about the landslide that's about to happen and how spoony is about to be proven wrong (even though i didn't dispute what he was saying, i just said it was irrelevant since servers will have the choice)
- spoony feels a bit sorry for tildeth at this point and lowers the bar for him. i say: see if you can get a 1 in 5 minority of players in renegade to agree with you.
- the poll is crushingly defeated, tildeth is extremely embarrassed and deletes his posts on the subject. he then lies on the jelly forum, saying he deleted it due to "popular demand". no, he deleted it because he knew he couldn't possibly even achieve a 1 in 5 minority, let alone the overwhelming majority he said he would get.
now, jelly moderators (mostly homey, it seems) also systematically delete the relevant posts on the jelly-forum, and cover up the entire thing.
this is certainly not the worst stain on the anti-pointsfix crowd's pants, but it's probably the funniest.
homey tried to justify this coverup by saying it was all off topic. i must admit, i always respected homey, but this is indefensible.
this poll is INCREDIBLY relevant to the pointsfix debate, as far as the jelly community goes. why? because "most of us don't like the pointsfix" is the only argument they've presented which hadn't been conclusively debunked. for example, first they said: "we shouldn't use this because westwood didn't intend it, case closed." it was proven westwood DID intend this, and suddenly they change their argument to "it doesn't matter whether westwood intended it, that's not the point at all." (lol)
i will now explain exactly why we know homey was lying when he said why he deleted all this. i will simply give just one example of a far worse offender than tildeth's poll.
i posted some ideas about the official ladder on the jelly forum. i said we think we may implement a system whereby the more strategic server settings are worth more ladder. for example, 0 start credits is more strategic than 9999 start credits. and the pointsfix is more strategic than the pointsbug. i put this concept up for debate, and nobody could refute it, although there were some very odd attempts made. i will cite the most absurd.
clearshot is a jelly moderator, a long-time clanwars player, and ardent opponent of the pointsfix. he said nobody should use the TT ladder if spoony's running it, because he has a history of abusing admin power like he did at clanwars.cc.
he gave A LOT of examples, all of them very vague. i challenged him to be specific. i will list a few of his specific accusations.
- when spoony was the renadmin and the leader of the clan [TC], spoony allowed the [TC] player Soul to get away with pointpushing (pointpushing is a way of cheating on the clanwars ladder, basically refers to reporting fake games, stuff like that)
- spoony abused his admin powers to punish clans for breaking rules that didn't exist yet
- when SS and Whiskey both pointpushed on the same month, spoony let whiskey get away with it. and the reason it happened at all was because spoony was a terrible admin.
- later, spoony and whiskey were the admins and both of them pointpushed in the same month. also in the same month, clearshot was wrongly suspended for pointpushing when he didn't do anything wrong
these are a few examples, there were plenty more (there were about a dozen, in total). ALL of them have one thing in common - they were all completely fabricated. every single one was conclusively disproven. most of them were so stupid that most of the clanwars community shouldn't even NEED evidence to see through them. for example, he accused me of abusing admin powers at a period in time OVER A YEAR BEFORE I BECAME THE ADMIN.
what's more, clearshot actually IS a convicted pointpusher on the clanwars ladder (which does somewhat invalidate his credibility to criticise the way i want to run any ladder). he lied about this over and over and over again (he made over ten public denials, saying he didn't pointpush) - this was disproven too.
so, his endless stream of lies were very easy to blow out of the water, whereas the one accusation i make against clearshot - which he denies again and again - is proven correct. but what happens then? does ANYBODY at jelly condemn clearshot for this ridiculous pile of concocted slander? does ANYBODY support me, pointing out that i'm the only person who could be bothered hosting a clan ladder for them at all and I actually did it pretty damn fairly? no, not a peep. nobody minds at all. (imagine the OUTRAGE if I did what clearshot tried to get away with here... after all, i get treated with contempt just for using the quote function effectively). what's more, there are a few people who were involved in the thread who KNEW clearshot was lying and that i was innocent, but intentionally kept quiet and flamed me instead - most obviously simpee and tildeth.
now, why do i mention this? simple. homey. homey is an old clan mate of mine, and a previous clanwars league admin himself. of all the people on the jelly community who ought to know that what clearshot was trying to feed everybody was a steaming sack of horseshit, homey is right at the top of the list. if he had any of the honesty or any decency i used to respect in him, he would've AT LEAST made a brief post supporting me and pointing out clearshot was lying, either before he was caught, or after he was caught. he did neither, although he still involved himself in the threads.
and yet when tildeth's poll horribly loses, he systematically purges it from existence and says "it's all off topic". i don't know how anybody can seriously believe this.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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| Re: The Pointsfix, Tildeth's poll, Homey, and the Jelly community [message #405029 is a reply to message #405005] |
Fri, 02 October 2009 14:33  |
kadoosh
Messages: 90
Registered: April 2004
Karma: 0
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Here's something to think about spoony. I'm not against you either so don't take this wrong.
He doesn't like the pointfix/patch. Apparently he goes out of the way to not use it. You give him 2 options. Either it's mandatory or it's an option to be turned on. What would you pick? As you see, "leave it out it sucks" isn't an option, so for his preferences he choses make it an option witch he then has to support since it's the only option that goes toward his personal gain. So it's not that he wants the server owners to have the choice. It's the only option given that has his goal involved. So in his opinion it would be the lesser of the 2 evils.
Hope this translation of someone hopelessly defending his anti poinfix stance to english makes sense.
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| Re: The Pointsfix, Tildeth's poll, Homey, and the Jelly community [message #405033 is a reply to message #405029] |
Fri, 02 October 2009 15:14 |
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Starbuzzz
Messages: 1637
Registered: June 2008
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General (1 Star) |
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I really like the idea of servers counting their worth on the ladder based on how pure they are. Will make more sense in the chaotic types of servers available now.
I played in a popular modded server which counts in the current ladder but it has a crapload of bots. You basically cannot sneak without some fag bot headshoting you. Plus you are allowed to call in 3 refill crates by paradrops anytime. Even when you are standing in front of the enemy building's MCT! Easy building kill...takes no skill whatsoever.
Many elements of "normal" C&C Mode is missing here yet people get the same ladder points for playing there just as they would in a pure server.
Now I think it's a bit unfair considering sneaking is totally ruled out (thanks to aforementioned bots) and refill crates by paradrops are absurd! And yet to play there and get same ladder points seems wrong to me.
I mean a player sneaking in a pure server on Canyon and beaconing the Ref counts more than a player in such modded servers able to sneak in, lay the beacon, and call in paradropped Ramjet bots for reinforcement to cover that beacon!
So this ladder idea based on "strategic" servers is really really quite nice.
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| Re: The Pointsfix, Tildeth's poll, Homey, and the Jelly community [message #405037 is a reply to message #405005] |
Fri, 02 October 2009 15:52 |
Homey
Messages: 1084
Registered: February 2003
Location: Canada
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General (1 Star) |
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Spoony, you and tildeth we're talking in a topic that didn't pertain to anything relevant to pointsfix. I don't know why you two posted in there randomly, and I don't care. I just deleted the posts by both of you and you think I'm covering something up. Yes, I'm covering up something that's posted publicly here on renforums. I don't even read your posts, it's pretty clear what they are and I don't care to waste 10 minutes of my life reading more of your junk.
BTW for anyone who needs a link.
http://www.jelly-server.com/nuke/modules.php?name=FUDForums&file=index&t =msg&th=13498&prevloaded=1&S=5f678a15a0ba9c55dbccd78461dee2ea&st art=30
| Prul3z wrote on Tue, 23 June 2009 14:23 |
Just throwing in a simple question here:
How much longer do you expect Renegade, as a whole, to survive?
This means, howmuch longer do you think the amount of players will be high enough to keep playing this game?
Discuss.
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The topic was about Renegade's survival. And Spoony, I wasn't around or don't remember anything about clear cheating. The last person I remember was JR or one of his buddies using BH against me. After that I didn't really play much in the way of CW's or didn't pay much attention to shit going on. I may have been told at one point or read something, but I don't remember.
Homey
[Updated on: Fri, 02 October 2009 16:10] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: The Pointsfix, Tildeth's poll, Homey, and the Jelly community [message #405074 is a reply to message #405029] |
Fri, 02 October 2009 19:30 |
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Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
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| kadoosh wrote on Fri, 02 October 2009 16:33 |
Here's something to think about spoony. I'm not against you either so don't take this wrong.
He doesn't like the pointfix/patch. Apparently he goes out of the way to not use it. You give him 2 options. Either it's mandatory or it's an option to be turned on. What would you pick? As you see, "leave it out it sucks" isn't an option, so for his preferences he choses make it an option witch he then has to support since it's the only option that goes toward his personal gain. So it's not that he wants the server owners to have the choice. It's the only option given that has his goal involved. So in his opinion it would be the lesser of the 2 evils.
Hope this translation of someone hopelessly defending his anti poinfix stance to english makes sense.
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there's no defending him here.
if he wants the pointsfix to simply not exist and for communities to NOT be able to use it, let him be uncharacteristically honest and just say so. he showed a rare flash of honesty when he said he wanted the TT ladder to be less fair, shame that didn't last.
if he wants the pointsfix utterly destroyed, well, that's his opinion. but instead he says: i support the idea of each community choosing whether to use it. trouble is he's lying through his teeth when he says this. he is fundamentally opposed to the idea.
| Homey wrote |
Spoony, you and tildeth we're talking in a topic that didn't pertain to anything relevant to pointsfix. I don't know why you two posted in there randomly, and I don't care.
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| spoony wrote |
homey tried to justify this coverup by saying it was all off topic. i must admit, i always respected homey, but this is indefensible.
this poll is INCREDIBLY relevant to the pointsfix debate, as far as the jelly community goes. why? because "most of us don't like the pointsfix" is the only argument they've presented which hadn't been conclusively debunked.
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excuse me, but if "most of us don't like the pointsfix" is "random" and "not relevant to the pointsfix", then you have an awful lot more deleting to do.
| Homey wrote |
I just deleted the posts by both of you and you think I'm covering something up. Yes, I'm covering up something that's posted publicly here on renforums.
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actually, i didn't post it here to begin with. i only did because you went on a delete rampage, lol. and it's very very obvious why - because tildeth's poll is incredibly embarrassing and threatening to the anti-pointsfix crowd.
I don't even read your posts, it's pretty clear what they are and I don't care to waste 10 minutes of my life reading more of your junk.
| Homey wrote |
And Spoony, I wasn't around or don't remember anything about clear cheating. The last person I remember was JR or one of his buddies using BH against me. After that I didn't really play much in the way of CW's or didn't pay much attention to shit going on. I may have been told at one point or read something, but I don't remember.
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you dodge my question. i didn't ask you if you remembered whether clear cheated. quite a few people don't remember it, and a few who do remember it found it politically convenient not to admit it (simpee being the best example).
why the conspicuous silence when he made the huge list of bullshit accusations against me? about a dozen ridiculous lies, all of them so stupid that it's impossible to even take them seriously, even before they were disproven, which they were. and why not a word of condemnation after he's caught lying about every single thing he said?
is running the league honestly and fairly for longer than anyone else suddenly rendered worthless just because i like the pointsfix? it certainly seems that way.
| raven wrote |
No one at Jelly cares what happened at cw.cc or what clearsh0t has to say on the issue.. why should ANYONE at Jelly condemn him if they don't care?
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i don't expect you to care about what happened at clanwars. what i do find surprising, however, is your apparent indifference to one of your moderators lying to everybody AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN to try to make me look bad, just because that's the only way he can try to sabotage the TT ladder. we don't all value honesty, eh... these "debates" prove only one thing: you can get away with the most extraordinary bullshit just so long as you're vocal in your opposition to the pointsfix. i can scarcely imagine the outrage if *i* did what clearshot just did.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
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1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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| Re: The Pointsfix, Tildeth's poll, Homey, and the Jelly community [message #405075 is a reply to message #405005] |
Fri, 02 October 2009 19:47 |
raven
Messages: 595
Registered: January 2007
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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He doesn't speak on behalf of Jelly. He speaks for himself.. why should I care if he lies or not? I don't care if you lie.
It's not like he does anything as a moderator anyhow, and shouldn't even be on the modlist (but that's just my opinion)
For the record, I personally support the points fix. My community, however, does not, therefore I have to advocate on behalf of my community's want and make sure that there is an option to switch the fix on/off (at the very least).
-Jelly Administrator
-Exodus Administrator
[Updated on: Fri, 02 October 2009 19:49] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: The Pointsfix, Tildeth's poll, Homey, and the Jelly community [message #405076 is a reply to message #405075] |
Fri, 02 October 2009 19:55 |
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Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
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General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
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| raven wrote on Fri, 02 October 2009 22:47 |
He doesn't speak on behalf of Jelly. He speaks for himself.. why should I care if he lies or not? I don't care if you lie.
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I don't believe you. I simply do not believe you. I think the roof would be raised if I did what clearshot did. Look how hostile people in your community - including many moderators and admins - are towards me because I use the fucking QUOTE FUNCTION. Now imagine their murderous rage if I pulled a clearshot...
...if you really wouldn't care, you're in the extreme minority.
| raven wrote on Fri, 02 October 2009 22:47 |
For the record, I personally support the points fix. My community, however, does not, therefore I have to advocate on behalf of my community's want and make sure that there is an option to switch the fix on/off (at the very least).
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um, TT and myself have said over and over and over again that we think this option should be there too, no matter how disgusting the tactics of the anti-pointsfix crowd in getting what they want, and no matter how many of them DON'T want this choice to exist at all.
it's amazing how often i get told at jelly to "stop trying to force the pointsfix onto us". this is a conclusion that can only be reached if you simply don't read a damn word i say. and yet when PLENTY of your community try to force the pointsbug onto people, there's not a damn word of condemnation. so don't act like there's anything wrong with someone trying to force the pointsfix onto you, because your silence in the opposite situation says more than you want it to.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
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1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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| Re: The Pointsfix, Tildeth's poll, Homey, and the Jelly community [message #405078 is a reply to message #405005] |
Fri, 02 October 2009 20:01 |
Homey
Messages: 1084
Registered: February 2003
Location: Canada
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I still haven't even seen this poll, nor do I care. We had one 3 months ago here, did we not? Wasn't it 50-50 ish? That's enough for me.
I didn't say anything because I wasn't reading it because I haven't been involved in the CW community in several years. It really wasn't interesting to me.
I still don't see how I was covering anything up, from what I could tell you two were arguing on some other topic, which I assume was here in one of the sections, and some of if spilled over into the topic on Jelly. All I did was delete it because it was in the wrong place, it's not some conspiracy.
Homey
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| Re: The Pointsfix, Tildeth's poll, Homey, and the Jelly community [message #405079 is a reply to message #405078] |
Fri, 02 October 2009 20:07 |
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Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
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General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
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| Homey wrote on Fri, 02 October 2009 22:01 |
I still haven't even seen this poll, nor do I care.
I still don't see how I was covering anything up, from what I could tell you two were arguing on some other topic, which I assume was here in one of the sections, and some of if spilled over into the topic on Jelly. All I did was delete it because it was in the wrong place, it's not some conspiracy.
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and yet it clearly wasn't in the wrong place at all. how do you explain the absolutely staggering number of truly worthless posts on those debate threads that you DIDN'T delete? i shouldn't have to spell this out. go read the original ladder thread; there was a grand total of one person on the anti-pointsfix side who actually debated the issue maturely. everyone else just resorted to the usual insults and character assassination your community subjects me to every time they're furious at losing an argument and want to shift the humiliation somehow.
and if clearshot's nonsense was sufficiently irrelevant that it wasn't interesting to you and raven didn't care either, this begs the question why didn't you delete any of THAT? (the answer's obvious - he's on the anti-pointsfix side, and the person he was attacking was pro-pointsfix. so it doesn't matter if he cheats, doesn't matter if he lies again and again and again to make the other person look bad. like i said, you can get away with any bullshit you lie if you're on the anti-pointsfix crowd, but if you're pro-pointsfix you get treated with contempt despite doing absolutely nothing wrong.)
but oh no. when there's a vote about the pointsfix and your side CATASTROPHICALLY loses, it is immediately - IMMEDIATELY, homey - deleted. and when i explain what actually happened, that's IMMEDIATELY deleted too.
you're either up to your neck in this or you're pathetically incompetent at what you're trying to do.
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[Updated on: Fri, 02 October 2009 20:08] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: The Pointsfix, Tildeth's poll, Homey, and the Jelly community [message #405080 is a reply to message #405076] |
Fri, 02 October 2009 20:24 |
raven
Messages: 595
Registered: January 2007
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Spoony wrote on Fri, 02 October 2009 21:55 |
I don't believe you. I simply do not believe you. I think the roof would be raised if I did what clearshot did. Look how hostile people in your community - including many moderators and admins - are towards me because I use the fucking QUOTE FUNCTION. Now imagine their murderous rage if I pulled a clearshot...
...if you really wouldn't care, you're in the extreme minority.
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Spoony, I can honestly say that I wouldn't care. I don't get wrapped up too much in a game  I'm not into that whole lynch Spoony because he is Spoony deal.
| Spoony wrote on Fri, 02 October 2009 21:55 |
um, TT and myself have said over and over and over again that we think this option should be there too, no matter how disgusting the tactics of the anti-pointsfix crowd in getting what they want, and no matter how many of them DON'T want this choice to exist at all.
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Yep, I know. I'm happy to see there will be a choice as it should put an end to all this arguing bullshit. Keyword there is *should*
| Spoony wrote on Fri, 02 October 2009 21:55 |
it's amazing how often i get told at jelly to "stop trying to force the pointsfix onto us". this is a conclusion that can only be reached if you simply don't read a damn word i say.
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To be honest, I was anti-pointsfix BEFORE I took the time to actually read the arguments for it. It convinced me that the pointsfix does actually make sense.
-Jelly Administrator
-Exodus Administrator
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| Re: The Pointsfix, Tildeth's poll, Homey, and the Jelly community [message #405082 is a reply to message #405080] |
Fri, 02 October 2009 20:49 |
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Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
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General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
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| raven wrote on Fri, 02 October 2009 22:24 |
Spoony, I can honestly say that I wouldn't care. I don't get wrapped up too much in a game I'm not into that whole lynch Spoony because he is Spoony deal.
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like i said, you're in the extreme minority if this is the case.
| raven wrote on Fri, 02 October 2009 22:24 |
| Spoony wrote on Fri, 02 October 2009 21:55 |
um, TT and myself have said over and over and over again that we think this option should be there too, no matter how disgusting the tactics of the anti-pointsfix crowd in getting what they want, and no matter how many of them DON'T want this choice to exist at all.
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Yep, I know. I'm happy to see there will be a choice as it should put an end to all this arguing bullshit. Keyword there is *should*
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actually, if you remember, i predicted that it wouldn't, and i turned out to be absolutely 100% accurate. it doesn't matter how many concessions you make to the anti-pointsfix crowd... they're the most unappeasable group since the late 30's
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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| Re: The Pointsfix, Tildeth's poll, Homey, and the Jelly community [message #405089 is a reply to message #405005] |
Fri, 02 October 2009 23:16 |
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BLûεl4βêL
Messages: 178
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Location: Netherlands
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ahh so this is where the topic continues.. pretty good
...bow to your #1 ranked warrior
| Quote: |
by Whiskey @ clanwars.cc
Legend has it, that long long ago before the tiberum wars, Havoc and Sakura conceived a love child in the backseat of a GDI Hum-vee. 9 months later, IsItInYou popped out and headshot them both, then nuked their refinery.
how did the baby get a gun?! rgGh probably
so the baby spectated both his parents and drove home from the C&C_Hospital.mix in the humvee parked outside?!
3 wisemen came bearing gifts: credits, tiberium, and murr, whatever the FUCK that is. IsItInYou was nailed to the obelisk, but respawned 3 days later and performed miracles.
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| Re: The Pointsfix, Tildeth's poll, Homey, and the Jelly community [message #405148 is a reply to message #405005] |
Sat, 03 October 2009 09:48 |
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archerman
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Location: Istanbul / Turkey
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| Spoony wrote on Fri, 02 October 2009 23:08 |
what i'm about to reveal is certainly not the worst stain on the anti-pointsfix-crowd's pants, but it's probably the funniest.
quick summary of what happened.
- discussion took place on renegadeforums about whether each community should have the choice whether to use the pointsfix or not.
- spoony says they should. TT says they should. tildeth says they should. trouble is tildeth was lying through his teeth, he actually opposes the idea - he proved it in the case of clanwars.cc.
i shall be specific here. the rightful admin+league owner - that's me - decided i wanted to use the pointsfix in the clan ladder. i went to great lengths to encourage debate on the subject. unfortunately a few individuals had other ideas.
they couldn't debate the actual subject at all, so instead they resorted to character assassination, endlessly lying to everyone to try to influence opinion, outright disregarding and even subverting the wishes of the duly appointed renadmin, and most crucially, lying to the server hosts to try to get the pointsfix removed - because they knew honesty wouldn't get the job done. later, i tried again to get the pointsfix implemented, this time in its full incarnation - i.e. with the vehicle-alignment fix - and the community outright refused to even try it. later still, they lied about this saying they DID test it.
now, you can take one of two sides here. you can -a- side with the duly appointed renadmin and rightful owner of the league in his league decisions, or you can -b- support the people (all of whom had really shitty reputations when it comes to actually following the rules) who resorted to such despicable tactics to subvert the admin's wishes.
if it's -b-, and it was -b- in tildeth's case, well, that's your opinion. but it proves four things.
1. you don't place the slightest value on honesty or mature debate.
2. you don't place the slightest value on fair play (again, pretty much everyone involved in the above behaviour has some rap sheet or other)
3. you don't have the slightest respect for the authority of the only person who can be bothered hosting a league for you
4. you DON'T support an individual community's right to choose whether to use the pointsfix or not.
4 is the important one. people say: each community ought to choose for itself whether to use the pointsfix or not. i agree. TT agrees. BUT if you look at what happened at clanwars and you side with -b- instead of -a-, you DON'T agree. you just don't.
anyway, back to the present. this debate over whether the pointsfix should be mandatory or optional. clearly it should be optional (although it should replace the pointsbug as the default system).
- after losing this argument, tildeth changes the subject and says MORE PEOPLE LIKE THE POINTSBUG THAN THE POINTSFIX SPOONY!
- spoony says so what? we're giving servers a choice whether to use it. some will use the pointsfix, some will use the pointsbug, players can choose where to play, and everybody's happy. (the only problem here is the jelly community's unwarranted and unchallengeable 4-year-long chokehold on the game listings, ensuring that no new server has a hope of flourishing)
- tildeth says HAHA YOU'RE SCARED OF THE FACTS! MAKE THE POLL! WE WILL WIN BY AN OVERWHELMING MAJORITY!
- spoony again says: so what even if this IS true? but ok, go ahead and make a thread, but it must be a thread where people publicly reply to it, NOT an anonymous poll (otherwise people can use multiple accounts, and the anti-pointsfix crowd has already been caught doing this)
- the thread is created by tildeth. he boasts in two separate threads on the jelly forums boasting about the landslide that's about to happen and how spoony is about to be proven wrong (even though i didn't dispute what he was saying, i just said it was irrelevant since servers will have the choice)
- spoony feels a bit sorry for tildeth at this point and lowers the bar for him. i say: see if you can get a 1 in 5 minority of players in renegade to agree with you.
- the poll is crushingly defeated, tildeth is extremely embarrassed and deletes his posts on the subject. he then lies on the jelly forum, saying he deleted it due to "popular demand". no, he deleted it because he knew he couldn't possibly even achieve a 1 in 5 minority, let alone the overwhelming majority he said he would get.
now, jelly moderators (mostly homey, it seems) also systematically delete the relevant posts on the jelly-forum, and cover up the entire thing.
this is certainly not the worst stain on the anti-pointsfix crowd's pants, but it's probably the funniest.
homey tried to justify this coverup by saying it was all off topic. i must admit, i always respected homey, but this is indefensible.
this poll is INCREDIBLY relevant to the pointsfix debate, as far as the jelly community goes. why? because "most of us don't like the pointsfix" is the only argument they've presented which hadn't been conclusively debunked. for example, first they said: "we shouldn't use this because westwood didn't intend it, case closed." it was proven westwood DID intend this, and suddenly they change their argument to "it doesn't matter whether westwood intended it, that's not the point at all." (lol)
i will now explain exactly why we know homey was lying when he said why he deleted all this. i will simply give just one example of a far worse offender than tildeth's poll.
i posted some ideas about the official ladder on the jelly forum. i said we think we may implement a system whereby the more strategic server settings are worth more ladder. for example, 0 start credits is more strategic than 9999 start credits. and the pointsfix is more strategic than the pointsbug. i put this concept up for debate, and nobody could refute it, although there were some very odd attempts made. i will cite the most absurd.
clearshot is a jelly moderator, a long-time clanwars player, and ardent opponent of the pointsfix. he said nobody should use the TT ladder if spoony's running it, because he has a history of abusing admin power like he did at clanwars.cc.
he gave A LOT of examples, all of them very vague. i challenged him to be specific. i will list a few of his specific accusations.
- when spoony was the renadmin and the leader of the clan [TC], spoony allowed the [TC] player Soul to get away with pointpushing (pointpushing is a way of cheating on the clanwars ladder, basically refers to reporting fake games, stuff like that)
- spoony abused his admin powers to punish clans for breaking rules that didn't exist yet
- when SS and Whiskey both pointpushed on the same month, spoony let whiskey get away with it. and the reason it happened at all was because spoony was a terrible admin.
- later, spoony and whiskey were the admins and both of them pointpushed in the same month. also in the same month, clearshot was wrongly suspended for pointpushing when he didn't do anything wrong
these are a few examples, there were plenty more (there were about a dozen, in total). ALL of them have one thing in common - they were all completely fabricated. every single one was conclusively disproven. most of them were so stupid that most of the clanwars community shouldn't even NEED evidence to see through them. for example, he accused me of abusing admin powers at a period in time OVER A YEAR BEFORE I BECAME THE ADMIN.
what's more, clearshot actually IS a convicted pointpusher on the clanwars ladder (which does somewhat invalidate his credibility to criticise the way i want to run any ladder). he lied about this over and over and over again (he made over ten public denials, saying he didn't pointpush) - this was disproven too.
so, his endless stream of lies were very easy to blow out of the water, whereas the one accusation i make against clearshot - which he denies again and again - is proven correct. but what happens then? does ANYBODY at jelly condemn clearshot for this ridiculous pile of concocted slander? does ANYBODY support me, pointing out that i'm the only person who could be bothered hosting a clan ladder for them at all and I actually did it pretty damn fairly? no, not a peep. nobody minds at all. (imagine the OUTRAGE if I did what clearshot tried to get away with here... after all, i get treated with contempt just for using the quote function effectively). what's more, there are a few people who were involved in the thread who KNEW clearshot was lying and that i was innocent, but intentionally kept quiet and flamed me instead - most obviously simpee and tildeth.
now, why do i mention this? simple. homey. homey is an old clan mate of mine, and a previous clanwars league admin himself. of all the people on the jelly community who ought to know that what clearshot was trying to feed everybody was a steaming sack of horseshit, homey is right at the top of the list. if he had any of the honesty or any decency i used to respect in him, he would've AT LEAST made a brief post supporting me and pointing out clearshot was lying, either before he was caught, or after he was caught. he did neither, although he still involved himself in the threads.
and yet when tildeth's poll horribly loses, he systematically purges it from existence and says "it's all off topic". i don't know how anybody can seriously believe this.
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wtf ru talking about
sorry for my English
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| Re: The Pointsfix, Tildeth's poll, Homey, and the Jelly community [message #405359 is a reply to message #405005] |
Mon, 05 October 2009 00:07 |
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Goztow
Messages: 9737
Registered: March 2005
Location: Belgium
Karma: 13
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General (5 Stars)
Goztoe |
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As it's highly unfair towards Spoony that his topic gets send to the spam forum because people post spam images in it, I split the ontopic part back to the heated discussion subforum.
I'd like to ask all of the image spammers to GTFO.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: The Pointsfix, Tildeth's poll, Homey, and the Jelly community [message #405378 is a reply to message #405148] |
Mon, 05 October 2009 05:46 |
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Altzan
Messages: 1586
Registered: September 2008
Location: Tennessee
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| archerman wrote on Sat, 03 October 2009 11:48 |
| Spoony wrote on Fri, 02 October 2009 23:08 |
what i'm about to reveal is certainly not the worst stain on the anti-pointsfix-crowd's pants, but it's probably the funniest.
quick summary of what happened.
- discussion took place on renegadeforums about whether each community should have the choice whether to use the pointsfix or not.
- spoony says they should. TT says they should. tildeth says they should. trouble is tildeth was lying through his teeth, he actually opposes the idea - he proved it in the case of clanwars.cc.
i shall be specific here. the rightful admin+league owner - that's me - decided i wanted to use the pointsfix in the clan ladder. i went to great lengths to encourage debate on the subject. unfortunately a few individuals had other ideas.
they couldn't debate the actual subject at all, so instead they resorted to character assassination, endlessly lying to everyone to try to influence opinion, outright disregarding and even subverting the wishes of the duly appointed renadmin, and most crucially, lying to the server hosts to try to get the pointsfix removed - because they knew honesty wouldn't get the job done. later, i tried again to get the pointsfix implemented, this time in its full incarnation - i.e. with the vehicle-alignment fix - and the community outright refused to even try it. later still, they lied about this saying they DID test it.
now, you can take one of two sides here. you can -a- side with the duly appointed renadmin and rightful owner of the league in his league decisions, or you can -b- support the people (all of whom had really shitty reputations when it comes to actually following the rules) who resorted to such despicable tactics to subvert the admin's wishes.
if it's -b-, and it was -b- in tildeth's case, well, that's your opinion. but it proves four things.
1. you don't place the slightest value on honesty or mature debate.
2. you don't place the slightest value on fair play (again, pretty much everyone involved in the above behaviour has some rap sheet or other)
3. you don't have the slightest respect for the authority of the only person who can be bothered hosting a league for you
4. you DON'T support an individual community's right to choose whether to use the pointsfix or not.
4 is the important one. people say: each community ought to choose for itself whether to use the pointsfix or not. i agree. TT agrees. BUT if you look at what happened at clanwars and you side with -b- instead of -a-, you DON'T agree. you just don't.
anyway, back to the present. this debate over whether the pointsfix should be mandatory or optional. clearly it should be optional (although it should replace the pointsbug as the default system).
- after losing this argument, tildeth changes the subject and says MORE PEOPLE LIKE THE POINTSBUG THAN THE POINTSFIX SPOONY!
- spoony says so what? we're giving servers a choice whether to use it. some will use the pointsfix, some will use the pointsbug, players can choose where to play, and everybody's happy. (the only problem here is the jelly community's unwarranted and unchallengeable 4-year-long chokehold on the game listings, ensuring that no new server has a hope of flourishing)
- tildeth says HAHA YOU'RE SCARED OF THE FACTS! MAKE THE POLL! WE WILL WIN BY AN OVERWHELMING MAJORITY!
- spoony again says: so what even if this IS true? but ok, go ahead and make a thread, but it must be a thread where people publicly reply to it, NOT an anonymous poll (otherwise people can use multiple accounts, and the anti-pointsfix crowd has already been caught doing this)
- the thread is created by tildeth. he boasts in two separate threads on the jelly forums boasting about the landslide that's about to happen and how spoony is about to be proven wrong (even though i didn't dispute what he was saying, i just said it was irrelevant since servers will have the choice)
- spoony feels a bit sorry for tildeth at this point and lowers the bar for him. i say: see if you can get a 1 in 5 minority of players in renegade to agree with you.
- the poll is crushingly defeated, tildeth is extremely embarrassed and deletes his posts on the subject. he then lies on the jelly forum, saying he deleted it due to "popular demand". no, he deleted it because he knew he couldn't possibly even achieve a 1 in 5 minority, let alone the overwhelming majority he said he would get.
now, jelly moderators (mostly homey, it seems) also systematically delete the relevant posts on the jelly-forum, and cover up the entire thing.
this is certainly not the worst stain on the anti-pointsfix crowd's pants, but it's probably the funniest.
homey tried to justify this coverup by saying it was all off topic. i must admit, i always respected homey, but this is indefensible.
this poll is INCREDIBLY relevant to the pointsfix debate, as far as the jelly community goes. why? because "most of us don't like the pointsfix" is the only argument they've presented which hadn't been conclusively debunked. for example, first they said: "we shouldn't use this because westwood didn't intend it, case closed." it was proven westwood DID intend this, and suddenly they change their argument to "it doesn't matter whether westwood intended it, that's not the point at all." (lol)
i will now explain exactly why we know homey was lying when he said why he deleted all this. i will simply give just one example of a far worse offender than tildeth's poll.
i posted some ideas about the official ladder on the jelly forum. i said we think we may implement a system whereby the more strategic server settings are worth more ladder. for example, 0 start credits is more strategic than 9999 start credits. and the pointsfix is more strategic than the pointsbug. i put this concept up for debate, and nobody could refute it, although there were some very odd attempts made. i will cite the most absurd.
clearshot is a jelly moderator, a long-time clanwars player, and ardent opponent of the pointsfix. he said nobody should use the TT ladder if spoony's running it, because he has a history of abusing admin power like he did at clanwars.cc.
he gave A LOT of examples, all of them very vague. i challenged him to be specific. i will list a few of his specific accusations.
- when spoony was the renadmin and the leader of the clan [TC], spoony allowed the [TC] player Soul to get away with pointpushing (pointpushing is a way of cheating on the clanwars ladder, basically refers to reporting fake games, stuff like that)
- spoony abused his admin powers to punish clans for breaking rules that didn't exist yet
- when SS and Whiskey both pointpushed on the same month, spoony let whiskey get away with it. and the reason it happened at all was because spoony was a terrible admin.
- later, spoony and whiskey were the admins and both of them pointpushed in the same month. also in the same month, clearshot was wrongly suspended for pointpushing when he didn't do anything wrong
these are a few examples, there were plenty more (there were about a dozen, in total). ALL of them have one thing in common - they were all completely fabricated. every single one was conclusively disproven. most of them were so stupid that most of the clanwars community shouldn't even NEED evidence to see through them. for example, he accused me of abusing admin powers at a period in time OVER A YEAR BEFORE I BECAME THE ADMIN.
what's more, clearshot actually IS a convicted pointpusher on the clanwars ladder (which does somewhat invalidate his credibility to criticise the way i want to run any ladder). he lied about this over and over and over again (he made over ten public denials, saying he didn't pointpush) - this was disproven too.
so, his endless stream of lies were very easy to blow out of the water, whereas the one accusation i make against clearshot - which he denies again and again - is proven correct. but what happens then? does ANYBODY at jelly condemn clearshot for this ridiculous pile of concocted slander? does ANYBODY support me, pointing out that i'm the only person who could be bothered hosting a clan ladder for them at all and I actually did it pretty damn fairly? no, not a peep. nobody minds at all. (imagine the OUTRAGE if I did what clearshot tried to get away with here... after all, i get treated with contempt just for using the quote function effectively). what's more, there are a few people who were involved in the thread who KNEW clearshot was lying and that i was innocent, but intentionally kept quiet and flamed me instead - most obviously simpee and tildeth.
now, why do i mention this? simple. homey. homey is an old clan mate of mine, and a previous clanwars league admin himself. of all the people on the jelly community who ought to know that what clearshot was trying to feed everybody was a steaming sack of horseshit, homey is right at the top of the list. if he had any of the honesty or any decency i used to respect in him, he would've AT LEAST made a brief post supporting me and pointing out clearshot was lying, either before he was caught, or after he was caught. he did neither, although he still involved himself in the threads.
and yet when tildeth's poll horribly loses, he systematically purges it from existence and says "it's all off topic". i don't know how anybody can seriously believe this.
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wtf ru talking about
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Good question
I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire
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| Re: The Pointsfix, Tildeth's poll, Homey, and the Jelly community [message #405413 is a reply to message #405074] |
Mon, 05 October 2009 11:09 |
kadoosh
Messages: 90
Registered: April 2004
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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| Spoony wrote on Fri, 02 October 2009 22:30 |
| kadoosh wrote on Fri, 02 October 2009 16:33 |
Here's something to think about spoony. I'm not against you either so don't take this wrong.
He doesn't like the pointfix/patch. Apparently he goes out of the way to not use it. You give him 2 options. Either it's mandatory or it's an option to be turned on. What would you pick? As you see, "leave it out it sucks" isn't an option, so for his preferences he choses make it an option witch he then has to support since it's the only option that goes toward his personal gain. So it's not that he wants the server owners to have the choice. It's the only option given that has his goal involved. So in his opinion it would be the lesser of the 2 evils.
Hope this translation of someone hopelessly defending his anti poinfix stance to english makes sense.
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there's no defending him here.
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I wasn't intentionally defending him here. Just as I did for you when you expressed your lack of motivation to translate German to English in 5 seconds, I translated a Hopeless Person Trying to Defend his anti Pointfix stance to English.
| Spoony wrote |
if he wants the pointsfix to simply not exist and for communities to NOT be able to use it, let him be uncharacteristically honest and just say so. he showed a rare flash of honesty when he said he wanted the TT ladder to be less fair, shame that didn't last.
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In the thread that was, for some reason, started in a Public part of the forums instead of the Server owners part of the forum there were only 2 options. Make it Mandatory or Make it an option. He hates Pointsfix with a passion. If you had the option of "Fuck it, it sucks" he probably would have gone with that. Since it was in a public part of the forum he chose to support a side that had what he wants in it. Make it an option. This way he can go to the servers that he plays in and request they turn it off.
| Spoony wrote |
if he wants the pointsfix utterly destroyed, well, that's his opinion. but instead he says: i support the idea of each community choosing whether to use it. trouble is he's lying through his teeth when he says this. he is fundamentally opposed to the idea.
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It's the only option you, meaning someone from TT who made a thread, gave him that still had the ability to not use the pointfix that he hates more than a fat kid hating exercise.
I feel I have clarified this as best I can. This guy seems like a giant doucher and I'm really not sure why you are giving him attention he doesn't deserve.
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| Re: The Pointsfix, Tildeth's poll, Homey, and the Jelly community [message #405839 is a reply to message #405413] |
Tue, 06 October 2009 19:42 |
Tildeth
Messages: 25
Registered: April 2008
Location: Canada, British Columbia.
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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| kadoosh wrote on Mon, 05 October 2009 13:09 |
| Spoony wrote on Fri, 02 October 2009 22:30 |
| kadoosh wrote on Fri, 02 October 2009 16:33 |
Here's something to think about spoony. I'm not against you either so don't take this wrong.
He doesn't like the pointfix/patch. Apparently he goes out of the way to not use it. You give him 2 options. Either it's mandatory or it's an option to be turned on. What would you pick? As you see, "leave it out it sucks" isn't an option, so for his preferences he choses make it an option witch he then has to support since it's the only option that goes toward his personal gain. So it's not that he wants the server owners to have the choice. It's the only option given that has his goal involved. So in his opinion it would be the lesser of the 2 evils.
Hope this translation of someone hopelessly defending his anti poinfix stance to english makes sense.
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there's no defending him here.
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I wasn't intentionally defending him here. Just as I did for you when you expressed your lack of motivation to translate German to English in 5 seconds, I translated a Hopeless Person Trying to Defend his anti Pointfix stance to English.
| Spoony wrote |
if he wants the pointsfix to simply not exist and for communities to NOT be able to use it, let him be uncharacteristically honest and just say so. he showed a rare flash of honesty when he said he wanted the TT ladder to be less fair, shame that didn't last.
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In the thread that was, for some reason, started in a Public part of the forums instead of the Server owners part of the forum there were only 2 options. Make it Mandatory or Make it an option. He hates Pointsfix with a passion. If you had the option of "Fuck it, it sucks" he probably would have gone with that. Since it was in a public part of the forum he chose to support a side that had what he wants in it. Make it an option. This way he can go to the servers that he plays in and request they turn it off.
| Spoony wrote |
if he wants the pointsfix utterly destroyed, well, that's his opinion. but instead he says: i support the idea of each community choosing whether to use it. trouble is he's lying through his teeth when he says this. he is fundamentally opposed to the idea.
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It's the only option you, meaning someone from TT who made a thread, gave him that still had the ability to not use the pointfix that he hates more than a fat kid hating exercise.
I feel I have clarified this as best I can. This guy seems like a giant doucher and I'm really not sure why you are giving him attention he doesn't deserve.
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You clearly haven't been reading what I've been posting; you're just posting random assumptions to try and suck on spoony's dick, lets keep it real.
I've stated MULTIPLE times now that I don't "hate pointfix with a passion". Why? simple. I'll rip you apart with or without it. The reason I feel strongly against pointfix is because of what I think it will do to the communities NOT running the fix. We've already stated that there will be a ladder penalty to the servers not running the fix. This is what I was disagreeing with, NOT the pointfix itself.
EDIT: Additionally, Spoony is now trying to take away some of Jelly's control to make things "more fair". Wouldn't a penalty for the servers running the fix be enough? Apparently not, because everybody knows that Spoony wants renegade to be points"bug" free, so he just has to keep prying for more and more power and control for pointfix supporters.
[Updated on: Tue, 06 October 2009 19:44] Report message to a moderator |
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