Home » Tiberian Technologies / Blackhand Studios » Tiberian Technologies Forum » Ideas to help newcomers/people joining a serv mid-game
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| Re: Ideas to help newcomers/people joining a serv mid-game [message #405265 is a reply to message #405251] |
Sun, 04 October 2009 11:15   |
Homey
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| liquidv2 wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 13:15 |
Elit3flyr has a point - by implementing the pointmod you are making it harder for players to earn credits, but instead you are trying to change the original settings to compensate for it
which is fine, but his point remains that you're changing other things in an attempt to make it work better
i'm assuming that servers using a modified credits to points ratio will be earning a penalty on the official ladder? 
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That's pretty much what I'm getting at. IE best of both worlds. I like being able to buy stuff constantly and trying all sorts of rushes and being aggressive overall. Like on field sometimes Nod gets a chance to take it, but half the team is too wimpy to move out. If I move out people tend to follow, granted since I'm the first one out I'll probably die fairly quickly because of no support, but the general idea I was after was to get my team going.
It's not about being able to earn credits for me, it's about how quickly. I think a lot of new players probably find they don't have enough credits anyways, which is fine...they're new. Changing the points/credit ratio is a good idea imo. Dunno why anyone didn't think of it sooner. Seems to be a fair compromise between two sides. At least in my eyes anyways.
Homey
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| Re: Ideas to help newcomers/people joining a serv mid-game [message #405268 is a reply to message #404700] |
Sun, 04 October 2009 11:20 |
ELiT3FLyR
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why are u even trying to come up with solutions to the pontfix problems? fix the bugs in the game, leave pointfix optional and dont try to change anything that will effect gameplay. If a server wants to use pointfix but wants players to have more credits, then they can do the same thing storm has done to their own servers.
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| Re: Ideas to help newcomers/people joining a serv mid-game [message #405270 is a reply to message #404700] |
Sun, 04 October 2009 11:27 |
ELiT3FLyR
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the problem is that most TT people have not played this game at a high level and dont understand that 3 credits a second and pointfix will change the game for people like me who prefer to play smaller organised games. to be honest i dont care what u do with the patch as long as im not forced to play with changes in the gameplay that u have decided to make in the name of "balance". This is why pointfix has to be optional.
ps spoony last time we had a whos better argument u lost. im better than u with or without pointfix
[Updated on: Sun, 04 October 2009 11:32] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Ideas to help newcomers/people joining a serv mid-game [message #405276 is a reply to message #404700] |
Sun, 04 October 2009 12:15 |
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Dover
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Anyone who calls it "pointmod" instead of "pointfix" (Because it's quite clearly a fix, since it fixes what's quite clearly a bug) is a huge throbbing faggot.
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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| Re: Ideas to help newcomers/people joining a serv mid-game [message #405284 is a reply to message #404700] |
Sun, 04 October 2009 12:45 |
Homey
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I think double is far too high. This would need some testing, but I guess a way to go about it would be looking at average end game scores with and without pointsfix. Say the average with, is 50k, without is 60k. Therefore you'd want a 1:1.2 ratio to make it the same.
Homey
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| Re: Ideas to help newcomers/people joining a serv mid-game [message #405311 is a reply to message #405276] |
Sun, 04 October 2009 14:16 |
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Spoony
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| Dover wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 14:15 |
Anyone who calls it "pointmod" instead of "pointfix" (Because it's quite clearly a fix, since it fixes what's quite clearly a bug) is a huge throbbing faggot.
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i've often thought so, it's basically a politicised inaccuracy.
| Homey wrote |
It's not about being able to earn credits for me, it's about how quickly. I think a lot of new players probably find they don't have enough credits anyways, which is fine...they're new. Changing the points/credit ratio is a good idea imo. Dunno why anyone didn't think of it sooner. Seems to be a fair compromise between two sides. At least in my eyes anyways.
I think double is far too high. This would need some testing, but I guess a way to go about it would be looking at average end game scores with and without pointsfix. Say the average with, is 50k, without is 60k. Therefore you'd want a 1:1.2 ratio to make it the same.
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i suggested 50%, what say you to that?
i.e. if you do 50 points' worth of damage you'll get 75 credits for it
| simpee wrote |
why are u even trying to come up with solutions to the pontfix problems?
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I don't think it is a problem. I think you actually can keep your economy going just fine with the pointsfix if you know what you're doing. However I'm making yet another compromise towards the anti-pointsfix crowd, even though they've never been willing to budge an inch on their part, and have always treated me with extraordinary contempt for no justification. It's just being the better man, I guess.
| simpee wrote |
to be honest i dont care what u do with the patch as long as im not forced to play with changes in the gameplay that u have decided to make in the name of "balance". This is why pointfix has to be optional.
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You dodged my statement that you actually DON'T want the pointsfix to be optional. Not surprising, considering how damning it is, and how hypocritical it proves your every statement to be.
| simpee wrote |
ps spoony last time we had a whos better argument u lost. im better than u with or without pointfix
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You won an argument against me? I think you probably dreamt that? Three times out of ten you get caught lying through your teeth (but usually aren't put off and try again soon enough), and the other seven you simply have no fucking clue what you're talking about (but usually pretend you do)
| simpee wrote |
well aslong as its optional then its fine. i just got the idea from the last pointfix topic and the way that this topic was opened that u guys wanted to make it mandatory
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Again, read my statements about who's making things mandatory. The more you talk about how the pointsfix ought to be optional, the bigger a liar you look. You've already proven you want no such thing, would get in its way if you could, and have actually tried to twice.
| liquidv2 wrote |
Elit3flyr has a point - by implementing the pointmod you are making it harder for players to earn credits, but instead you are trying to change the original settings to compensate for it
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Again, I don't think credits need increasing. I'm just willing to make compromises for lesser-skilled players like simpee, even though he's never been willing to return the favour and indeed has actively sabotaged my choice of whether to use the pointsfix in my own community (hence proving, exactly like tildeth before him, that he's lying through his teeth when he says he wants the pointsfix to be optional)
| liquidv2 wrote |
i'm assuming that servers using a modified credits to points ratio will be earning a penalty on the official ladder?
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VERY good question. I don't think I made myself clear. I've been rather vocal on the fact that most modifications to the game (donate, weapon drops, stuff like that) make gameplay worse. There are a couple of modifications I think are actually ok - such as character refunds - and if we end up making an idea like this, then I think it'd be fine (i.e. no penalty)
| liquidv2 wrote |
clanwars servers won't have to use it if they don't want to unless spoony wants it
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read my posts to simpee and tildeth. these people are COMPLETELY opposed to the whole idea of the pointsfix being optional for each community. they might tell you they want the choice to be there, but newsflash, they're lying. (again)
| liquidv2 wrote |
they're thinking up ideas to make the pointmod easier for new players, and their thought is that giving more credits per points gained would be good
(and this would probably be an option as well, a server wouldn't have to use it if they did not want to)
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Of course. We haven't even reached a consensus yet, just talking about it.
| liquidv2 wrote |
so a grenadier shooting the ref on volcano would get like 16 points per shot instead of 8 or 7 or whatever, or maybe 10 points per shot if they don't have it doubled
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I think an extra 50% is good.
| liquidv2 wrote |
i think this will help better players more than newer players because they're generally doing more as a whole so they're going to be earning the extra income more than newer players
so it helps everyone but it helps who's doing the most more, and it could help new players learn (which is always a good thing)
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It'll help everybody learn, and in my view a lot of the "better" players have a lot more learning to do. Read my post on page one.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
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| Re: Ideas to help newcomers/people joining a serv mid-game [message #405317 is a reply to message #404700] |
Sun, 04 October 2009 16:05 |
Homey
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50% isn't a bad place to start. Really there's no point in choosing another number until we could actually test it and see. I imagine it'd be somewhere between 20% and 50%. But, it'd be hard to judge. I play pretty aggressively, but do kill lots of stuff and tend to have the money for stuff, but not much extra. Like complex for example in J1 I'll grab a med and be pretty aggressive and end up dieing a fair bit. Generally I have enough creds by the time I die for another.
We'd need a server to test this on to see if it works. Another option is still changing the refinery trickle to a bit higher number (2.5?). I still prefer the points/credits ratio as it promotes good team play like spoony has mentioned, and keeps your cash higher which is what I like.
Oh and if there's no penalty for this sort of thing (obviously the ratio would have to be within reason right?) then I'd be more than happy to play on a pointsfix server.
Homey
[Updated on: Sun, 04 October 2009 16:09] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Ideas to help newcomers/people joining a serv mid-game [message #405325 is a reply to message #405321] |
Sun, 04 October 2009 16:32 |
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Spoony
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| liquidv2 wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 18:24 |
you go out of your way to say that simpee is a terrible player when he's actually better than you at the game, and you're actually quite a good player
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actually, he used to try to use this argument all the time against me. trouble is, -a- even if it were true, he's still been wrong so many times it boggles the mind, and been caught lying about nearly as many things as clearshot, and -b- there's a lot of evidence that he is not better than me, and when you point it out he goes all quiet.
| liquidv2 wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 18:24 |
you continuously point out that some players feel that the pointmod should not be used anywhere and that everyone should be forced to use the original points; you can say the exact same thing about pro-pointmod players, but by all means keep trying to spin it around 
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sorry, what? when i see someone say the pointsfix should be a compulsory thing, i take a moment to disagree and point out that TT's policy is that it will be optional.
i remind you of my reproach to jonwil.
| liquidv2 wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 18:24 |
there is absolutely no way that servers modifying the credits gained while gaining points should be worth the same as servers using the pointmod and no weapons drop and no weapons spawn and no donate (and also no refunds or other outside mods)
it's clearly not intended and in implementing it you're lessening the worth of said server in comparison to a clean one; either apply a ladder penalty or don't do it at all 
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read my posts. modifications aren't always bad for gameplay. i certainly think that MOST of them are. but if it's a "TT-approved" thing, something which I think does NOT have a downward effect on balance, then there's no reason for the ladder penalty.
| liquidv2 wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 18:24 |
it's a modification made by renegade fans to fix the bugs in the original points system, so i call it exactly what it is
whether it's what was intended or not is irrelevant because it was not released as the default point system and modifies the current one; don't lose too much sleep over it dover!111
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like i said, politicised inaccuracy.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
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| Re: Ideas to help newcomers/people joining a serv mid-game [message #405327 is a reply to message #405325] |
Sun, 04 October 2009 16:38 |
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liquidv2
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| Spoony wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 18:32 |
read my posts. modifications aren't always bad for gameplay. i certainly think that MOST of them are. but if it's a "TT-approved" thing, something which I think does NOT have a downward effect on balance, then there's no reason for the ladder penalty.
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well if it's what TT wants then they can do it, seeing as how it's their ladder after all, but don't call those servers pure if they run mods on credit income
| Spoony wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 18:32 |
| liquidv2 wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 18:24 |
it's a modification made by renegade fans to fix the bugs in the original points system, so i call it exactly what it is
whether it's what was intended or not is irrelevant because it was not released as the default point system and modifies the current one; don't lose too much sleep over it dover!111
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like i said, politicised inaccuracy.
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nope 
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| Re: Ideas to help newcomers/people joining a serv mid-game [message #405330 is a reply to message #405326] |
Sun, 04 October 2009 16:43 |
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Spoony
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| liquidv2 wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 18:34 |
if it's not what we believe to be original intended renegade then it should be worth less on the overall ladder
it doesn't seem that hard to understand
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...you're ignoring my explanation.
| liquidv2 wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 18:34 |
; the reasons why it could be or is a good thing are not at all relevant because the fact remains...it's not what we believe to be original, intended renegade
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well, westwood actually made some glaring oversights on the official ladder which i plan on correcting.
| liquidv2 wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 18:34 |
well if it's what TT wants then they can do it, seeing as how it's their ladder after all, but don't call those servers pure if they run mods on credit income
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i don't plan on calling them "pure".
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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| Re: Ideas to help newcomers/people joining a serv mid-game [message #405336 is a reply to message #405334] |
Sun, 04 October 2009 17:39 |
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Spoony
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| liquidv2 wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 19:22 |
your explanation is completely irrelevant to the point
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...the fact you think it's irrelevant simply proves you didn't read it.
| liquidv2 wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 19:22 |
| Spoony wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 18:43 |
well, westwood actually made some glaring oversights on the official ladder which i plan on correcting.
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like?
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the biggest mistake they made is having it so that the highest scoring players on the team barely lose any ladder. this is a terrible blunder; it means ladder is all about gamespam, and a player can get to the top simply by getting a high individual score even if the team loses.
my solution: all players on the losing team lose the same amount of ladder regardless of individual score (although there may be a concession if the player has only just joined). winratio will become massively more important, gamespam less so, and your score will only matter if your team wins.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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| Re: Ideas to help newcomers/people joining a serv mid-game [message #405356 is a reply to message #404700] |
Sun, 04 October 2009 23:33 |
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Goztow
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To be frank, I've been playing with pointfix for about 2 years now on TK2 server and as surprising as it may seem to many of you, I adapted to it quite nicely. When I'm low on money, which doesn't happen an awful lot of times, I run out with basic infantry to do something useful (beit repairing a vehicle, sneaking through tunnels / field, attacking the harvester, using a GDI rifle against arts, sneaking behind camping vehicles to remote c4 them) and my money trickles up without me noticing it. We also have donate and my teammates do tend to donate me from time to time because I donate to them myself when possible.
And I'm one of the people who tends to die quite often because I usually am the first one in a group of players to rush / take the field.
It actually makes sens to me to not get my vehicle killed and retreat to repair it from time to time. Economy is an important part of the gameplay since we added the pointfix. Just like it has been in all C&C RTS games.
The only reason why this topic was made, was because some people fear that newer players will get discouraged if they fail to handle their economy, which honestly seems like a fair possibility. Noone ever said that anyone would be forced to use this "newcomer friendly" option, nor the pointfix in the first place.
And a big LOL to the guy who claims that he needs the points bug at high level games. If you cannot adapt to a change that actually makes sens then you suck quite hard.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: Ideas to help newcomers/people joining a serv mid-game [message #405361 is a reply to message #405321] |
Mon, 05 October 2009 01:46 |
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Dover
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Location: Monterey, California
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| liquidv2 wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 16:24 |
| Spoony wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 16:16 |
| Dover wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 14:15 |
Anyone who calls it "pointmod" instead of "pointfix" (Because it's quite clearly a fix, since it fixes what's quite clearly a bug) is a huge throbbing faggot.
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i've often thought so, it's basically a politicised inaccuracy.
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it's a modification made by renegade fans to fix the bugs in the original points system, so i call it exactly what it is
whether it's what was intended or not is irrelevant because it was not released as the default point system and modifies the current one; don't lose too much sleep over it dover!111
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It's a modification in the same sense that any patch is a modification. The only reason it's done by fans is because Westwood is long dead and EA doesn't give two shits about us. This is the only way bugs (Especially the glaringly obvious ones like the pointbug) are ever going to be fixed. Stop politicizing the issue when it's open and shut. It's a bug, therefore it should be fixed. Your mental gymnastics on whether it being intended or not is irrelevant. The bug is going to be fixed, and either you're going to learn to like it or go cry in a corner. That's the choice set before you.
Also, I'd like to formally request a mod give liquidv2 the custom title "Huge Throbbing Faggot". He walked into it.
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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