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Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » RenegadeX-Pre-release --> "Is the GDI/Nod autorifle thing balanced?" debate
Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401230 is a reply to message #400864] Tue, 01 September 2009 18:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
R315r4z0r is currently offline  R315r4z0r
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There is one new ability for vehiclular combat that might change the way the game plays in a slight portion.

The MRLS turret does, in fact, rotate in Renegade X. That means you don't have to curve your shots to hit your targets. They did say that they are planning to make a button that locks the turret in a specific place, but I'm not sure if it will be in the build or not (I'm not a dev).

However, even if damage points are the same, the rotating turret does give the MRLS a much better chance at survival when in one on one combat with an artillery.
Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401239 is a reply to message #400864] Tue, 01 September 2009 19:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GEORGE ZIMMER is currently offline  GEORGE ZIMMER
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How the hell does making GDI soldiers more powerful compensate for artilleries being better than MRLS's?

Here's a better idea: Keep the changes made (Balancing Nod and GDI's rifles), then make the MRLS more capable.


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Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401272 is a reply to message #400864] Wed, 02 September 2009 02:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Goztow is currently offline  Goztow
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Goztoe
The answer is quite simple: harvesters. IF you play original renegade without starting credits (= clanwars settings), then you'll know that the first minutes of the game are crucial to the rest of the game.

With their rifles, GDI almost always have the upper hand on attacking the harvester, except of course on maps where the harv is behind the refinery. But then they still have the upperhand in tunnel fights most of the time.

If GDI has a better chance of killing the enemy harvester and saving theirs, they'll compensate the art : med difference, won't they?

Economy is very important in Renegade, but things like starting credits (to a lesser extend) and mostly the lack of pointfix (there we go again) already get in the way of this.

Making Nod's and GDI's soldiers doing equal damage will have a much bigger impact on this, though.

I'm not saying Westwood intended this or not, I'm not in their heads but by some small miracle Westwood managed to make this game about balanced. Every small "detail" counts in this.

You didn't yet answer my question about pointfix being implemented or not. Could you look into it?

Tbh you guys should check such things with Spoony or someone else from clanwars.cc. They're in a way better position than most people on this forum (including myself) to talk about balance issues.

It kind of frightens me to see this hasn't happened.


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[Updated on: Wed, 02 September 2009 02:07]

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Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401307 is a reply to message #400864] Wed, 02 September 2009 12:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Havoc 89 is currently offline  Havoc 89
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If you honestly think that the Arty is better then the MRLS by a long shot then I just have to laugh at you. You clearly dont know how to use an MRLS.

At close range where you can get behind the mrls I can understand, but honestly I've never managed to get an artillery get behind my MRLS. As per getting behind the MRLS, we have already taking care of that where the alt fire will allow you to unlock your turret, alt fire once (after you unlocked it) will lock in whatever position, and double tap alt fire will position it back to how it was in ren with the initial locked position. MRLS missiles are easier to lock on but still require a little bit of skill. All the damage values are still the same (Other then the Nod AR) so actually the MRLS and artillery balance out very nicely. So that leaves an imbalance in the soldier battles, which is easily fixed by making the damage the same. So your explanation on how the GDI soldier some how balances out the Arty no longer applies because the MRLS is already balanced out with the Arty.

Now with that being said, I am well aware that GDI is more powerful but slow, and Nod is Faster but weaker, but when it comes to infintry, the only difference is that Gunner can deal more punch in a shorter amount of time, but Nod in return has the Laser ChainGunner which is far more superior to Patch. The whole thing with GDI being stronger and slower, and Nod being faster but weaker only really applies to the vehicles.


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Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401308 is a reply to message #400864] Wed, 02 September 2009 12:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GEORGE ZIMMER is currently offline  GEORGE ZIMMER
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Oh, I don't think it's better than the MRLS by THAT much, but in ren, it is pretty inferior. While battle-wise, it's not that much worse, the fact that is costs more really comes into play.

Glad to hear how the MRLS will work though, that gives it the versatility it needed.

I hope to see in the future though, you guys introduce the other 2 Nod vehicles that were left out of Renegade, and have the SSM and MRLS compete- rather than Artillery and MRLS.


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Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401309 is a reply to message #400864] Wed, 02 September 2009 12:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Havoc 89 is currently offline  Havoc 89
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MRLS and Arty both cost 450. Never did one cost more then the other in ren. And its the same in RenX, they both cost 450.

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Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401315 is a reply to message #401307] Wed, 02 September 2009 13:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dover is currently offline  Dover
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Havoc 89 wrote on Wed, 02 September 2009 12:02

If you honestly think that the Arty is better then the MRLS by a long shot then I just have to laugh at you. You clearly dont know how to use an MRLS.

At close range where you can get behind the mrls I can understand, but honestly I've never managed to get an artillery get behind my MRLS. As per getting behind the MRLS, we have already taking care of that where the alt fire will allow you to unlock your turret, alt fire once (after you unlocked it) will lock in whatever position, and double tap alt fire will position it back to how it was in ren with the initial locked position. MRLS missiles are easier to lock on but still require a little bit of skill. All the damage values are still the same (Other then the Nod AR) so actually the MRLS and artillery balance out very nicely. So that leaves an imbalance in the soldier battles, which is easily fixed by making the damage the same. So your explanation on how the GDI soldier some how balances out the Arty no longer applies because the MRLS is already balanced out with the Arty.


In any proper vehicle fight (Proper, meaning with proper repairs, of course), the arty has a huge advantage because of the absurd splash radius which makes it that much more difficult for supporting hotwires to stay out of the crossfire and still be in the tank's cover and protection. By comparison, the MLRS's splash is really pathetic. The only vehicle weapon that comes close is the Mammoth Tank's Tusk Missiles. Of course, what self-respecting artillery driver would let a mammy get so close?


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Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401316 is a reply to message #400864] Wed, 02 September 2009 13:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RTsa is currently offline  RTsa
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The MRLS having a rotating turret (that can still be locked in place) really does sound like a pretty big upgrade and hopefully, it'll mostly balance the things if you don't nerf the Nod AR back to Ren settings.

Will be interesting to see how it goes. I do really hope that the points are fixed and not bugged like in vanilla Renegade, though.

Keep up the good work! Smile


Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401319 is a reply to message #401149] Wed, 02 September 2009 14:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
EvilWhiteDragon is currently offline  EvilWhiteDragon
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[NE

Fobby[GEN] wrote on Tue, 01 September 2009 18:27]I understand your explanation, but I don't really see how a slightly stronger rifle magically balances with Nod's artillery advantage - especially since the damage difference between the rifles is so small, and the GDI soldier is something that is used very early on. Nod's advantage with the artillery sounds like something that needs to balanced between vehicles (like a better MRLS for example?), rather than nerfing the damage of basic infantry.

Anyways we'll be sure to test it out before release. Thanks for voicing your concerns.

And for the record, the main reason for open betas is to get little things like this right before an official release. With the difference in engine and physics, you're bound to run into at least a few differences; some of which could be fixed early on.


The Rifle grants GDI an (small) advantage right at the start, when everyone is going for the harvs. As said GDI needs meds to counter the arts. GDI needs 2 surviving harvs for this, with the better rifle they can protect thiers better and attack the Nod one better. For the art/med battle to be "fair" the harv score needs to be 2-1 for GDI (harvs that unloaded).


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Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401329 is a reply to message #400864] Wed, 02 September 2009 17:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JeepRubi is currently offline  JeepRubi
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If you guys don't like how our game is balanced, you can always make a balance mod in the form of a mutator! Now, stop whining about all the little details and let us finish the fucking mod before getting all up in arms about such a SMALL FUCKING DETAIL.

HORQWER wrote on Tue, 18 September 2007 20:47

this is not a real renegade forums ,some one made it up

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Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401330 is a reply to message #401329] Wed, 02 September 2009 18:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LeeumDee is currently offline  LeeumDee
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JeepRubi wrote on Wed, 02 September 2009 19:58

If you guys don't like how our game is balanced, you can always make a balance mod in the form of a mutator! Now, stop whining about all the little details and let us finish the fucking mod before getting all up in arms about such a SMALL FUCKING DETAIL.


You should leave the PR to fobby Thumbs Up


Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401332 is a reply to message #401330] Wed, 02 September 2009 18:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dover is currently offline  Dover
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LeeumDee wrote on Wed, 02 September 2009 18:07

JeepRubi wrote on Wed, 02 September 2009 19:58

If you guys don't like how our game is balanced, you can always make a balance mod in the form of a mutator! Now, stop whining about all the little details and let us finish the fucking mod before getting all up in arms about such a SMALL FUCKING DETAIL.


You should leave the PR to fobby Thumbs Up


Nah, JeepRubi is doing some fine PR. Sometimes nerds need a firm talking to. Thumbs Up


DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19

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Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401337 is a reply to message #401329] Wed, 02 September 2009 19:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ethenal is currently offline  Ethenal
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JeepRubi wrote on Wed, 02 September 2009 19:58

If you guys don't like how our game is balanced, you can always make a balance mod in the form of a mutator! Now, stop whining about all the little details and let us finish the fucking mod before getting all up in arms about such a SMALL FUCKING DETAIL.

QFT Big Ups


-TLS-DJ-EYE-K wrote on Mon, 18 March 2013 07:29

Instead of showing us that u aren't more inteligent than a Toast, maybe you should start becomming good in renegade Thumbs Up

Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401338 is a reply to message #400864] Wed, 02 September 2009 19:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
R315r4z0r is currently offline  R315r4z0r
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I don't think it's a complaint about balance in Renegade X, but rather a discussion as to why the damage differences existed in Renegade in the first place.

Also, I want to go back to a post Goz made about referencing the damage differences to the early game harvester rushes. I have to disagree with that point. This isn't APB. If infantry are forced to rush the enemy harvesters, then they aren't going to use their autorifles to do so. C4 would be the weapon of choice. And even if they do decide to use their autorifles to gain some extra points before it dies, at the end of the day, the harvesters were still destroyed and/or heavily damaged due to the C4.

[Updated on: Wed, 02 September 2009 19:38]

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Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401340 is a reply to message #401329] Wed, 02 September 2009 19:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dr3w2 is currently offline  dr3w2
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JeepRubi wrote on Wed, 02 September 2009 19:58

If you guys don't like how our game is balanced, you can always make a balance mod in the form of a mutator! Now, stop whining about all the little details and let us finish the fucking mod before getting all up in arms about such a SMALL FUCKING DETAIL.

Like a boss.

I agree with JeepRubi by far. No matter what some motherfuckers are going to be so picky about every little detail even if the overall result is absolutely amazing. Can't wait for this!


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Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401341 is a reply to message #401338] Wed, 02 September 2009 19:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ethenal is currently offline  Ethenal
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R315r4z0r wrote on Wed, 02 September 2009 21:37


Also, I want to go back to a post Goz made about referencing the damage differences to the early game harvester rushes. I have to disagree with that point. This isn't APB. If infantry are forced to rush the enemy harvesters, then they aren't going to use their autorifles to do so. C4 would be the weapon of choice. And even if they do decide to use their autorifles to gain some extra points before it dies, at the end of the day, the harvesters were still destroyed and/or heavily damaged due to the C4.[/color]

Okay, you've definitely never played in a server with no starting credits.

He does not mean GDI gains the advantage so they can destroy the harvester faster, he means that they gain the advantage in PREVENTING NOD from destroying their harvester and allowing them to destroy Nod's own. The GDI soldier has a more powerful rifle and the Nod soldier's head is bigger because it gives GDI an advantage in defending the harvester.

I guess it's true: nobody on renforums plays renegade.


-TLS-DJ-EYE-K wrote on Mon, 18 March 2013 07:29

Instead of showing us that u aren't more inteligent than a Toast, maybe you should start becomming good in renegade Thumbs Up

Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401344 is a reply to message #400864] Wed, 02 September 2009 20:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Homey is currently offline  Homey
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Really when it comes down to balancing the game, let's not follow renegade step by step as it's a different engine and may have different gameplay. As long as the guys at RenX balance it so nod and gdi have an equal chance at winning that's what matters. That's also why this is a BETA to see how these things turn out.

Homey
Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401346 is a reply to message #400864] Wed, 02 September 2009 21:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
infusi0n
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1)arty>MRLS every single time unless you're terrible

2)rotatable MRLS turret means another huge balance issue

3)im guessing renx is based off non-points fix points system?
Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401363 is a reply to message #401346] Thu, 03 September 2009 02:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
EvilWhiteDragon is currently offline  EvilWhiteDragon
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infusi0n wrote on Thu, 03 September 2009 06:11

1)arty>MRLS every single time unless you're terrible

2)rotatable MRLS turret means another huge balance issue

3)im guessing renx is based off non-points fix points system?

LOLOLOLL
It would probably be harder to give RenX a non point fix way of distributing points than a normal pointfix way.
With the pointfix you get points for the damage you do (like in most games) without it you get points because you shoot with a weapon that basically has the capability to do a lot of damage, but doesn't do that because it's bad against the armortype, but that does get the points as if it did the lot of damage.

For ex:
Without pointfix:
The ramjet has a basic damage of 200. This means that whatever it hits, it gets 20 points (even if it does just 5 damage on a vehicle or so). Also it depends on whether the vehicle you hit has green or red/orange health.

With pointfix:
The ramjet applies 200*armourmultiplier. This means that it does say 5 damage. It then gets 0,5 points because it only did 5 damage.


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Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401365 is a reply to message #400864] Thu, 03 September 2009 03:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RTsa is currently offline  RTsa
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EWD, I think they still haven't said anything about how the points will be done in RenX. But yeh, it's most likely the right way - aka pointsfix on.

Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401368 is a reply to message #400864] Thu, 03 September 2009 04:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ErroR is currently offline  ErroR
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1-2 buggyes still come and kill half/all of the soldiers
Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401369 is a reply to message #401368] Thu, 03 September 2009 04:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Goztow is currently offline  Goztow
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ErroR wrote on Thu, 03 September 2009 13:05

1-2 buggyes still come and kill half/all of the soldiers

2-3 rifles own a buggy in a few seconds... So there go your 300 credits...


You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401372 is a reply to message #400864] Thu, 03 September 2009 04:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ErroR is currently offline  ErroR
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yeah but it does make a difference, killing some engies or soldiers once it comes out Huh and if it's not a 20v20 server it can pretty much whore the harv
Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401386 is a reply to message #400864] Thu, 03 September 2009 07:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dommafia is currently offline  dommafia
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can't wait for this, hopefully those that don't have ut3 will buy it. I bought on Steam for like 5$ just for this mod Smile

everyone should try their best to spread the word to their old renegade gaming buddies that may have moved on to other games. At least to give it a try so we can have a somewhat populated game.

shoutout to my renegade demo buddies that remember me and St0rm servers Smile


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[Updated on: Thu, 03 September 2009 07:08]

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Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401391 is a reply to message #401369] Thu, 03 September 2009 07:50 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
DutchNeon is currently offline  DutchNeon
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Goztow wrote on Thu, 03 September 2009 13:14

ErroR wrote on Thu, 03 September 2009 13:05

1-2 buggyes still come and kill half/all of the soldiers

2-3 rifles own a buggy in a few seconds... So there go your 300 credits...


I often use a Buggy/Humvee at the start, and 3 rifles can't really kill me. The only way I often get killed is due GDI/NOD gaining the field, and having their entire team shooting me.

A lot of (good) people can easily kill 2-3 soldiers in seconds with a Buggy/Humvee.
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