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| Re: Question for Christians [message #387768 is a reply to message #387613] |
Sun, 24 May 2009 20:40   |
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Altzan
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I agree with you, Razor. The only part I don't agree with (and I know you might not either) is:
| R315r4z0r wrote on Sat, 23 May 2009 20:27 |
Jesus: Do you want your sins renewed?
Person1: Yes
Jesus: Ok, then all you have to do is believe in me.
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The aspect of whether the debt is paid by your awareness or not is important, but in the big picture, it's only one step to being saved. If someone heard the story of Jesus, believes, and prays for forgiveness, asks for the debt to be paid, and that's all they do... they're going to hell. Why? There's more to it.
To those questioning the debt aspect... which do you believe: faith is all you need, or faith + works (5-step plan to salvation)?
I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire
[Updated on: Sun, 24 May 2009 20:42] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #387915 is a reply to message #387613] |
Mon, 25 May 2009 22:24 |
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Dover
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| R315r4z0r wrote on Sat, 23 May 2009 18:27 |
If you haven't noticed, religion isn't logical. It's believe or don't believe. That's it. There is no reasoning why, there is no connecting the dots between events. It simply is what it is.[/i]
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...And therein lies the problem, because things that fall into this category tend to be not true. Logic and truth are inseparable concepts. To have something deny logic is to deny it's validity (Assuming one has all available information).
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #387919 is a reply to message #385426] |
Mon, 25 May 2009 22:50 |
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Altzan
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The problem is that we live in a day and age where everyone wants hardcore proof before believing anything. It's good to be cautious, but this is one of the things you simply have to apply faith.
| Hebrews 11:1 |
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
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I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #388041 is a reply to message #387915] |
Tue, 26 May 2009 18:07 |
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R315r4z0r
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| Dover wrote on Tue, 26 May 2009 01:24 |
...And therein lies the problem, because things that fall into this category tend to be not true. Logic and truth are inseparable concepts. To have something deny logic is to deny it's validity (Assuming one has all available information).
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Two things:
Your statement is incorrect. To have something that denies or defies logic, doesn't mean it denies its validity. It just means that its validity is called into question.
That takes me into the second thing that I wanted to say.
You are still missing the point of what I'm trying to say. Just because something exists that says something else is what it is, doesn't make it an absolute truth. For example, scientific laws that were defined centuries ago are still, to this day, being proven incorrect and new theories and knowledge is taking their place. There is always at least one exception to every rule.
Denying the logic of something doesn't deny its validity, it only puts its validity into question. Or, it puts the logic behind it into question.
Now, moving onto what I was trying to imply. All "logic" isn't the same, like you seem to be implying. It depends on the situation and what you are taking into question. If you can logically figure out something one way, that doesn't mean that one way will work for every other problem out there.
Just like that parents paying your tuition example is different and uses different logic to this Jesus example. They are different situations, different rules to different games, if you will. If you have to role a 6 in order to start moving your chips in the game 'Trouble,' that doesn't mean you have to follow the same rule when you are playing a game like Monopoly. Even if the 'games' have similarities, that doesn't mean they follow the same ideals.
In one example, you are given the choice of what happens. In the other example, you aren't. Therefore, with that fact alone, the two are completely different and therefore are unrelated. You cannot relate them through logic because the logic used is different in each scenario.
You seem to be too tied down to life to understand. Take what my signature says to heart and use it to move ahead! 
[Updated on: Tue, 26 May 2009 18:11] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #388047 is a reply to message #385426] |
Tue, 26 May 2009 18:54 |
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Altzan
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I can't really add to Razor's post, but I'll say this: religion is one of the few things that doesn't follow [scientific] logic. If you firmly will not believe something unless there's proof and logic to back it up, you're a hopeless case.
I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #388057 is a reply to message #388047] |
Tue, 26 May 2009 20:23 |
Rocko
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| Altzan wrote on Tue, 26 May 2009 20:54 |
I can't really add to Razor's post, but I'll say this: religion is one of the few things that doesn't follow [scientific] logic. If you firmly will not believe something unless there's proof and logic to back it up, you're a hopeless case.
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that sounds like a load of bullshit and what one would say who is desperately grabbing at anything that would validify their ignorance and waste of time with religion
black and proud
[Updated on: Tue, 26 May 2009 20:24] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #388063 is a reply to message #388041] |
Tue, 26 May 2009 23:04 |
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Dover
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| R315r4z0r wrote on Tue, 26 May 2009 18:07 |
Two things:
Your statement is incorrect. To have something that denies or defies logic, doesn't mean it denies its validity. It just means that its validity is called into question.
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That's what I meant.
| R315r4z0r wrote on Tue, 26 May 2009 18:07 |
[color=red]You are still missing the point of what I'm trying to say. Just because something exists that says something else is what it is, doesn't make it an absolute truth. For example, scientific laws that were defined centuries ago are still, to this day, being proven incorrect and new theories and knowledge is taking their place. There is always at least one exception to every rule.
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You misunderstand the term "law" when it comes to science. Things that have even the remotest possibility of being incorrect are not laws. That's why it's still called "Theory of Gravity", even though the concept of gravity is pretty basic.
| R315r4z0r wrote on Tue, 26 May 2009 18:07 |
Now, moving onto what I was trying to imply. All "logic" isn't the same, like you seem to be implying. It depends on the situation and what you are taking into question. If you can logically figure out something one way, that doesn't mean that one way will work for every other problem out there.
Just like that parents paying your tuition example is different and uses different logic to this Jesus example. They are different situations, different rules to different games, if you will. If you have to role a 6 in order to start moving your chips in the game 'Trouble,' that doesn't mean you have to follow the same rule when you are playing a game like Monopoly. Even if the 'games' have similarities, that doesn't mean they follow the same ideals.
In one example, you are given the choice of what happens. In the other example, you aren't. Therefore, with that fact alone, the two are completely different and therefore are unrelated. You cannot relate them through logic because the logic used is different in each scenario.
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TL;DRing these several paragraphs, and combining them with your "Religion isn't logical" comment from earlier, it seems like you're trying to create a protected, logic-proof status for religion(s). While it would be nice from a believer's perspective, the world simply doesn't work that way.
| R315r4z0r wrote on Tue, 26 May 2009 18:07 |
You seem to be too tied down to life to understand. Take what my signature says to heart and use it to move ahead!
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Kick logic to the curb? I'd rather get AIDS and die.
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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[Updated on: Tue, 26 May 2009 23:07] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #388194 is a reply to message #388057] |
Wed, 27 May 2009 18:40 |
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Altzan
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| Rocko wrote on Tue, 26 May 2009 22:23 |
| Altzan wrote on Tue, 26 May 2009 20:54 |
I can't really add to Razor's post, but I'll say this: religion is one of the few things that doesn't follow [scientific] logic. If you firmly will not believe something unless there's proof and logic to back it up, you're a hopeless case.
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that sounds like a load of bullshit and what one would say who is desperately grabbing at anything that would validify their ignorance and waste of time with religion
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Actually, the people wanting proof are those desperately looking for a reason not to believe something they don't want to believe because they want am easier path.
I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #388208 is a reply to message #388063] |
Wed, 27 May 2009 20:19 |
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Starbuzzz
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I thought I could ignore this thread but...
| Altzan wrote on Tue, 26 May 2009 20:54 |
If you firmly will not believe something unless there's proof and logic to back it up, you're a hopeless case.
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Most definitely not when it comes to religion.
With all due respect, the fact of the matter is that a thousand religions came before yours. The God of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam came into existence ONLY because of thousands of years of religious consolidation of ideologies in which the concept of polytheism grinded down into monotheism. We still have polytheism left over in a select few areas of the world while monotheistic religions today prominently fall into the category of major religions.
So how can ANY of the major religions impose their TRUTH (or their flavored versions) when they themselves owe their existence to dead pagan religions?
Once you sincerely realize that very important truth, you will see 100% of the credibility of your religion gone. But you probably still got some more steam left:
-fear of hell
-faith (either in desperation or a "my religion is still right!" tone)
Let me point out to you one very important thing and I challenge you to answer it. Where do you think the souls of the non-Christian humans go after they die? It's a very fair question to ask. I would really like to know where the souls of those who worshipped Ra, Zeus, Athena, and Buddah went. They can't possibly be in the Christian hell with them having never heard of it.
As far as faith goes, it is nothing but the one-word stunner to make one console themselves (or make themselves comfortable in times of adversity) to be correct while in fact they are usually dead wrong. Faith amounts to nothing...absolutely nothing but a form of self-conviction that a certain view is correct no matter how many times it has been proved wrong.
I left Christianity when I discovered that it is indeed full of violence and that I have been lied to all these years by ministers and my parents.
As Spoony pointed out earlier, God forbids not to kill yet he wiped out most humans in a massive flood. He then makes a covenant in which he regrets his actions and promises never to use water to kill again (creates the rainbow as well in the process). And over and over again he uses men like Joshua and King Saul to invade enemy cities and kill "every man, woman, child, and cattle." In fact, he punishes King Saul for sparing the livestock of one of the cities he wanted destroyed.
^ When the dumbfuck in me realized that, I quit Christianity FOR GOOD. I REFUSE to worship such a god who I was fooled into thinking was actually merciful.
For over 2000 years the Church and it's ministers have conveniently ignored the bloodythirstiness and the violence of the Christian religion. Ask anyone on the morning train to work and they will all say how Christianity is the peaceful one of all the three major religions! Once you see through this veil and inform yourself, you will see how absolutely disgusting it is. But I doubt you will be disgusted just yet as you still think that Jesus dying on a cross painfully was well worth it, right?
I will refer back to what Spoony posted earlier:
| Spoony wrote on Mon, 11 May 2009 05:22 |
the irony is, the people who've been telling us this tripe for two thousand years... CLEARLY view the whole crucifixion business as a good thing. i can just imagine their inner joy if they were there, whereas if i was there i'd do what i could to stop it.
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Jesus seems to be the grandest of all blackmail ploys. Absurd is how contrary the teachings of Jesus is compared to his murderous Father;
This was the God who became so angry that Israeli men were sleeping with Moabite women during their Exodus from Egypt that his anger was "not lifted" till a faithful Israeli stuck a spear through the bodies of the Israeli man and the Moabite woman while they were making love in a tent. How absurd and unfair is that? Cruelly killed for heeding to the law of nature! And God becomes happier after that!
And you check back to Jesus and what does Jesus do to the woman who committed adultery? He says to the accusers that she can only be stoned if they [accusers] are clean themselves! Nice attitude change all of a sudden. And let's not forget that Jesus WAS God in human form. 
It's pretty obvious Jesus physically died on the cross. The fairy tale about his return was most probably written by unknown authors decades later.
During my 2nd year in college a few years ago, during the exams, I went down to my favorite spot in the library to study. It was the perfect spot to study in, no traffic, no noise. But on that day, two girls came to that same exact spot. How dare they intrude upon my secluded study spot! But I was pleased that they were quiet.
Many hours passed and finally one of them got up to leave. She said quietly to her friend, "we will do well, I will pray to Allah." The other responded "I will pray to Allah too and we will pass." She left.
I was a Christian at that point (the devout type that prays before taking exams, food, etc). And I sat there like an absolute douche as the enormity of what I just heard went through my mind. I could not study from that point onwards; my brain went hyper. Wait a minute! I prayed to Jesus for help in the exams. And I know Jesus never fails me! But these girls...these girls are praying to Allah! He is not real...he is fake! How can he help them pass! He is a warmongering criminal! He orders the suicide bombers! A killer!
The thoughts that went through my head that day always haunted me.
That incident kickstarted my quest to uncover the truths about religion. Which religion is right? Which one is wrong? Is religion just made up by isolated groups of humans to help them go thru their everday life? Is that why there were and are so many religions on our planet?
I concluded recently that all of them must be right; they are all correct in their tiny little worlds that they create for themselves.
I asked myself, those girls don't know Jesus so they must be going to hell to be tortured. Pastors will always sing to you and tell how if you accept Jesus you get everlasting life but what they forcefully ignore is that those who don't accept Jesus will go to hell. They never tell you this. I refuse to belong to such sadistic hypocrisy. When will you face the hard facts and answer the difficult questions, Altzan? Or will you sink back to your protected religious cocoon and condemn those who don't belong in your group as "worldy" people?
Though I don't have to do this and hate to reveal personal stuff, let me write about my belief chronology. Just so you know that I humbly and truly mean what I have said so far.
-born into a conservative Christian family
-finished reading the Bible around 12
-wanted to be a pastor when I was 15-16
-for next 5 years, my resolve weakened and I became a normal Christian (sin during weekdays, repent on Sundays)
-living with my parents throughout high school, they protected me well against non-Christian ideals:
Taken to Church every Sunday, taken to group prayer meetings in people's homes, went to churches around the country for monthly meetings, did Church related volunteering work (all are deadly effective control ploys to keep you from challenging your beliefs and going off course). Why do you think Muslims are commanded to pray 5 times a day? Not to appease Allah but to keep their minds in line and not stray off.
We are talking SERIOUS thoughtcrime here...
If today you were dragged to a Mosque and told to worship Allah, will you do it? Of course not. That's how I felt when I was literally screamed at and told to shut the fuck up and get in the car to church. You probably have not faced such a situation so my words are just garbage to you but I am being absolutely honest here. When I think back to those horrible days, it sends a shiver down my spine...I feel sick and nightmarish when I think back to those days.
I have been a Christian every step of the way; I read the Bible, wanted to be a minister, was a devout follower at one point, then became a casual Christian, then a Christian who just did not care, then some form of anti-religious freak, then back for some reason to Christianity with great zealous force (even despising homosexuals to a point I never reached before) but that did not last long, then finally to who I am now and who I will be.
Why all these changes? It difficult to ignore the facts all the time. I tried very very hard to be Christian and my Christian friends here in this forum know it too well. But ultimately the steel door of religion that I was imprisoned behind failed to hide it's cracks and at one point the cracks became so obvious I was just able to kick the fucker down and run out. Without the help of a few good people who stood up for what is truly right, I would not have been able to do so.
I am not a self-righteous intellectual prick; I WAS. I am not arrogant but I WAS. The moment I stopped to fear hell was the moment I can claim I truly reclaimed my mind. All the belief system I had been ingrained with were flushed out. The Christian insurance system of hell (to hold on to your mind) is something I casually laugh at today without fear. I would hope you think about all these things.
For the first time in my life, I feel like a massive weight has been lifted off my mind. Like as if somebody just erased everything from a board. I have a fresh slate to work on. Damn it's a good feeling to not be a slave. I feel like I don't belong to any group and that is tremendously satisfying to me.
I did not make this wall post to stamp anything on you or anyone. I did not make this post to show off any superiority. I did not make this post to show how better off I am.
I had been honest with the writing of this post and revealed some personal information and shared real experiences; all to try to get across the point that I am NOT the "hopeless case" here as you imply of all those who choose to think freely with their minds outside corrupt religious thought control. That I have chosen to be what I am; NOT because I found religion too hard to follow or because I found an easier path (as you conveniently mention in your last post) but because the very foundations of Christianity and EVERY religion is false as explained above (refer to polytheism to monotheism) and that I want no part in the immoral bloodmongerism.
In fact, I feel very very sorry for those still living behind the bars. I really really do.
In the end, you can fearlessly dismiss the content of religions and thereby dismiss religion itself.
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #388216 is a reply to message #388208] |
Wed, 27 May 2009 21:43 |
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Spoony
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ljbh... you must feel better saying that, right?
i've a question... that stuff you PM'd me about earlier and told me to keep quiet about (I have done so) - am I the only person you said that stuff to until now?
| Starbuck wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 22:19 |
| Altzan wrote on Tue, 26 May 2009 20:54 |
If you firmly will not believe something unless there's proof and logic to back it up, you're a hopeless case.
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Most definitely not when it comes to religion.
With all due respect, the fact of the matter is that a thousand religions came before yours.
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no shit. there have been thousands of gods throughout recorded history (well, of course, there have thought to have been...). When I hear a Christian/Muslim/whatever ask me why I don't believe in Yahweh or Allah, I just fail to see why I'm the one with any explaining to do. I don't think any of them are real - he thinks 4999 of them are not real but 1 of them is. Like I said... am I the one with any explaining to do here?
| Starbuck wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 22:19 |
I left Christianity when I discovered that it is indeed full of violence and that I have been lied to all these years by ministers and my parents.
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^^ mmhmm.
long ago you asked me what's wrong with bringing kids up to be christians?
the answer is: there's nothing wrong with teaching kids about religion so long as it's done fairly. this means pointing out the bad sides of it as well as the good, it means pointing out the fact there's no proof for much of it, pointing out that we now have much better explanations for the creation of the world and the universe and ourselves, pointing out the fact the bible contradicts itself over and over and over etc etc etc...
but of course, when people want to bring kids up to be christians, they don't do any of the above, and that is brainwashing.
| Starbuck wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 22:19 |
As Spoony pointed out earlier, God forbids not to kill yet he wiped out most humans in a massive flood. He then makes a covenant in which he regrets his actions and promises never to use water to kill again (creates the rainbow as well in the process). And over and over again he uses men like Joshua and King Saul to invade enemy cities and kill "every man, woman, child, and cattle." In fact, he punishes King Saul for sparing the livestock of one of the cities he wanted destroyed.
^ When the dumbfuck in me realized that, I quit Christianity FOR GOOD. I REFUSE to worship such a god who I was fooled into thinking was actually merciful.
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yep. in almost every religious debate i come across a christian or a muslim who claims to be devout - i find myself asking them if they've read the bible properly? they invariably haven't. i once made a challenge to a christian who was ranting about the devil. i said: go through your bible, every page, and make a note of everything bad Satan does. i'll go through mine and make a note of everything bad God does, or orders to be done, then we'll come back in a week's time and compare the lists.
| Starbuck wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 22:19 |
It's pretty obvious Jesus physically died on the cross. The fairy tale about his return was most probably written by unknown authors decades later.
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i don't have much of a problem accepting that a man called Jesus existed, or that he may have been a moral teacher and philosopher... or even that he was crucified. these are, after all, not extraordinary claims. anything supernatural is another matter entirely...
| Starbuck wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 22:19 |
But these girls...these girls are praying to Allah! He is not real...he is fake! How can he help them pass! He is a warmongering criminal! He orders the suicide bombers! A killer!
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here we have another irony. Allah purports to be the same god as Yahweh, simply a more recent revelation. Earlier I asked why someone would be convinced of one god's existence but sneers at the other thousands. well, if someone is convinced that Christianity is a genuine revelation from a genuine god (on no evidence)... why dismiss a more recent update from that god?
surely islam supercedes christianity in the same way that christianity claims to supercede judaism. by extension, mormonism supercedes islam...
| Starbuck wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 22:19 |
I asked myself, those girls don't know Jesus so they must be going to hell to be tortured.
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yep. and most people just don't seem to realise the sheer evil of this concept. we quite rightly condemn the likes of stalin, who would kill you simply for disagreeing with him. but at least when you were dead he was more or less finished with you... with god, the real fun's just about to start.
| Starbuck wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 22:19 |
Pastors will always sing to you and tell how if you accept Jesus you get everlasting life but what they forcefully ignore is that those who don't accept Jesus will go to hell. They never tell you this.
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I'm honestly surprised by this, I hear it all the time.
| Starbuck wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 22:19 |
If today you were dragged to a Mosque and told to worship Allah, will you do it? Of course not. That's how I felt when I was literally screamed at and told to shut the fuck up and get in the car to church. You probably have not faced such a situation so my words are just garbage to you but I am being absolutely honest here.
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Yes, I know this stuff really happens, and I am fortunate to have parents who have always let me make my own mind up religion-wise. I actually thanked them for this exact thing a few months back.
Perhaps you're now beginning to understand why I involve myself in these debates. I don't wanna ridicule people's religious ideas just to make them look stupid or because it's funny (although it sometimes is) - this is a moral point. Freedom of belief is a basic human right. And I define freedom of belief as the following: "everyone's allowed to make their own completely free, completely informed choice of belief, or non-belief". We simply do not have this, and I firmly believe we ought to... hence trying to raise awareness, for the sake of people like you.
But you do have it better than some; the penalty for leaving Christianity isn't actually death...
| Starbuck wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 22:19 |
Why all these changes? It difficult to ignore the facts all the time. I tried very very hard to be Christian and my Christian friends here in this forum know it too well. But ultimately the steel door of religion that I was imprisoned behind failed to hide it's cracks and at one point the cracks became so obvious I was just able to kick the fucker down and run out. Without the help of a few good people who stood up for what is truly right, I would not have been able to do so.
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you almost certainly aren't finished making your mind up, but then as an atheist or agnostic, you've got time on your side.
| Starbuck wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 22:19 |
For the first time in my life, I feel like a massive weight has been lifted off my mind. Like as if somebody just erased everything from a board. I have a fresh slate to work on. Damn it's a good feeling to not be a slave. I feel like I don't belong to any group and that is tremendously satisfying to me.
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i am genuinely, genuinely happy to hear this.
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #388278 is a reply to message #385426] |
Thu, 28 May 2009 06:50 |
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Altzan
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| Quote: |
Let me point out to you one very important thing and I challenge you to answer it. Where do you think the souls of the non-Christian humans go after they die? It's a very fair question to ask. I would really like to know where the souls of those who worshipped Ra, Zeus, Athena, and Buddah went. They can't possibly be in the Christian hell with them having never heard of it.
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Why not? Why would they not go to hell simply because they never heard about it?
| Quote: |
As far as faith goes, it is nothing but the one-word stunner to make one console themselves (or make themselves comfortable in times of adversity) to be correct while in fact they are usually dead wrong. Faith amounts to nothing...absolutely nothing but a form of self-conviction that a certain view is correct no matter how many times it has been proved wrong.
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Incorrect. Especially the last statement. "No matter how many times it has been proved wrong"? I don't see how Christianity has been proven false even once. Most people find it hard to accept faith because it is belief in something you can't see clearly. People convince themselves that there's no way any of this could be true, they refuse to believe it, but they'll know in the end.
And when it comes down to debate over a person's faith, it's really down to one word against another. Throwing "proofs" around won't change someone else's opinion.
I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #388292 is a reply to message #388278] |
Thu, 28 May 2009 08:40 |
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Spoony
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| Altzan wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 08:50 |
Why not? Why would they not go to hell simply because they never heard about it?
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well, if they did, it would just be yet another example of how appallingly cruel and unjust this Yahweh character is... as if we needed another.
he's also staggeringly incompetent; if he's gonna have a revelation which all humans must heed or suffer horrific punishments, he could at least have done it a little better. firstly it was centuries before some parts of the world heard about christianity (the whole jesus business, if it happened at all, happened in an illiterate hellhole... wouldn't it have made more sense to stage the whole thing in, say, China, where people can actually read and write?), secondly he shouldn't have made the whole thing so shaky and hard to believe in the first place. the only evidence we have is a book which contradicts itself at every turn, has signs of being tampered with, and doesn't even have a single consistent style of writing.
do you suppose yourself to be a Christian? if so, answer the question i asked earlier. why aren't you a Muslim instead, since that revelation claims to come from the same god.
| Altzan wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 08:50 |
Incorrect. Especially the last statement. "No matter how many times it has been proved wrong"? I don't see how Christianity has been proven false even once.
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see above re: the bible continually contradicting itself. also see almost anywhere you see a religious person saying "no, it's a metaphor!"
| Altzan wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 08:50 |
Most people find it hard to accept faith because it is belief in something you can't see clearly. People convince themselves that there's no way any of this could be true, they refuse to believe it, but they'll know in the end.
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The Emperor Hirohito was the physical incarnation of a god.
Kim Jong-Il and Kim Il-Sung are two incarnations of the same divine being, descended from heaven.
Frozen yoghurt can make a man invisible.
Do you believe these claims? If not, why not?
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
[Updated on: Thu, 28 May 2009 08:41] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #388295 is a reply to message #385426] |
Thu, 28 May 2009 08:54 |
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Altzan
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The Bible doesn't cotradict itself.
I've listened to a lot of discussions about so-called contradictions, and why they're incorrect.
And if he made the revelation easier to believe, many more would believe it...maybe. Maybe not. It's not hard to understand that the majority won't. "The path to heaven is staright and narrow, and few there be that find it." Not because God engineered it that way. It's because of people's choices.
And the only people who will go to heaven without following God's plan of salvation are those who are physically incapable of understanding it.
I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #388301 is a reply to message #388295] |
Thu, 28 May 2009 09:18 |
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jnz
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| Altzan wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 16:54 |
The Bible doesn't cotradict itself.
I've listened to a lot of discussions about so-called contradictions, and why they're incorrect.
And if he made the revelation easier to believe, many more would believe it...maybe. Maybe not. It's not hard to understand that the majority won't. "The path to heaven is staright and narrow, and few there be that find it." Not because God engineered it that way. It's because of people's choices.
And the only people who will go to heaven without following God's plan of salvation are those who are physically incapable of understanding it.
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Well 'god' controls every single atom of our existence. So he controls our choices and our actions. Even if he does not control them now, he knew what would happen in his 'inifite' wisdom. He also set off a massive chain of events when he 'created' the earth which would lead to people doing these actions.
So this implies that god is infact just as evil as satan. So it's either one or the other. Either god doesn't know everything or he didn't create anything or he doesn't exist.
[Updated on: Thu, 28 May 2009 09:20] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #388304 is a reply to message #385426] |
Thu, 28 May 2009 09:55 |
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Altzan
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No, he does NOT control our actions. Even if he knows where we'll end up, it's still our choices that lead us there.
I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #388349 is a reply to message #388278] |
Thu, 28 May 2009 14:31 |
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Dover
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| Altzan wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 06:50 |
Most people find it hard to accept faith because it is belief in something you can't see clearly. People convince themselves that there's no way any of this could be true, they refuse to believe it, but they'll know in the end.
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Then you should have no trouble accepting the faith of my new religion, the Invisible Purple Flying Unicorn? (She's invisible, so we don't know that she's purple, but we believe it to be so). I know your God forbids the worship of any other God, but in a hypothetical situation where the Invisible Purple Flying Unicorn got to you first, would you have a problem with worshiping her?
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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[Updated on: Thu, 28 May 2009 14:31] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #388350 is a reply to message #388306] |
Thu, 28 May 2009 14:40 |
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Altzan
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| jnz wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 12:05 |
| Altzan wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 17:55 |
No, he does NOT control our actions. Even if he knows where we'll end up, it's still our choices that lead us there.
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but if he started the long chain of events that eventually led to us then yes, he does control our actions. If you could map every single atom in the universe you could predict the future and see into the past. Although I realize this goes very deep into quantum mechanics and it doesn't work quite like that. god is supposed to have created everything, remember. Even the shockwaves from the "non-existant" big bang, and fossils from "non-existant" links in the chain of our evolution. If he created every single atom in existance, every single law of the universe. Every single dimension. He certainly well "programmed" the universe to act exactly as it is now, and that includes us.
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But that doesn't mean he controls our CHOICES. We all can freely make a decision on what we believe.
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Then you should have no trouble accepting the faith of my new religion, the Invisible Purple Flying Unicorn? (She's invisible, so we don't know that she's purple, but we believe it to be so). I know your God forbids the worship of any other God, but in a hypothetical situation where the Invisible Purple Flying Unicorn got to you first, would you have a problem with worshiping her?
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The only way she could have "got to me first" would be through my parents, so I possibly might have. I doubt that would hold up over time, though.
I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #388379 is a reply to message #388350] |
Thu, 28 May 2009 19:35 |
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Dover
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| Altzan wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 14:40 |
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Then you should have no trouble accepting the faith of my new religion, the Invisible Purple Flying Unicorn? (She's invisible, so we don't know that she's purple, but we believe it to be so). I know your God forbids the worship of any other God, but in a hypothetical situation where the Invisible Purple Flying Unicorn got to you first, would you have a problem with worshiping her?
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I doubt that would hold up over time, though.
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Why not? With the exception of the minute details, it would probably be pretty similar to the faith you hold now. Change "Jesus" and "God" to "Unicorn", and you have an equally-valid relgion. You can even make smug, holier-than-thou comments about it, like| Altzan wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 06:50 |
Most people find it hard to accept faith because it is belief in something you can't see clearly. People convince themselves that there's no way any of this could be true, they refuse to believe it, but they'll know in the end.
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| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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[Updated on: Thu, 28 May 2009 19:36] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #388388 is a reply to message #388381] |
Thu, 28 May 2009 20:09 |
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AADude7
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| Altzan wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 18:39 |
You should actually try to start this religion and spread it. I'd like to see how far it goes 
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Considering how many people actually believe in religions, I'm guessing it would go far (if you create a nice plot, of course.)
[Updated on: Thu, 28 May 2009 20:10] Report message to a moderator |
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