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| Question for Christians [message #385426] |
Sun, 10 May 2009 12:24  |
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cheesesoda
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| Quote: |
If Christians believe Jesus died for our "sins" then they should logically believe no one is going to "Hell." If the incredible story must be believed in order to have the necessary effect, then the story thus becomes nothing more than a subtle psychological ploy instead of a debt actually paid. Jesus either died for us or he didn't. The debt was either paid or it wasn't. The rest is nonsense.
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So... answer the question, if Jesus died for our sins, why must we believe that he did for our debt to be paid? If someone paid my debt off, I wouldn't HAVE to acknowledge that the debt was paid for that to be true, right? I mean, this especially being so if I don't even know I HAD a debt to begin with.
whoa.
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #385437 is a reply to message #385431] |
Sun, 10 May 2009 14:16  |
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cheesesoda
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| cnc95fan wrote on Sun, 10 May 2009 16:54 |
I'm getting sick of all these "questions for Christians"
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Why? They're legitimate topics, and nobody's pigeon-holding any questions for us deists and atheists.
I'll even play the devil's advocate for my own question, too...
Nobody said that debts pay-offs can't have conditions to them, though. In order to reap the benefits of Jesus' death paying off my debt, I have to recognize that he paid off my debt. It's a simple requirement for such a huge debt to be paid.
HOWEVER, it's not "if you accept my payment for your debt, your debt will be paid." There's no condition spoken of in the Bible (that I'm aware of). It's just that the debt is paid. I wasn't given any chance to reject the debt pay-off. I can only reject that my debt was paid, but rejecting my debt being paid doesn't change that the debt is paid.
Also, again, if I don't even recognize that I HAVE (or had) a debt, HOW can I recognize and accept that a debt was paid? You can't have the latter without the former.
whoa.
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #385444 is a reply to message #385442] |
Sun, 10 May 2009 15:04 |
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futura83
Messages: 1285
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Location: England
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Viva la Resistance! |
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| cheesesoda wrote on Sun, 10 May 2009 22:35 |
| DAUGHTER DIVER wrote on Sun, 10 May 2009 17:33 |
jesus is fiction right?
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Jesus was an actual person, but he was either a liar or a lunatic.
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Who's is more insane though?
The man who is being insane or the people that are actually following him?
This is a signature. Reading this is wasting your time.
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #385454 is a reply to message #385426] |
Sun, 10 May 2009 19:10 |
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R315r4z0r
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You can lie for a good cause. That may have been his reasoning.
As for the topic, I can't understand what you are trying to say.. (or I am, but it just doesn't hold any real 'discussion value') 
Are you trying to say simply 'why can't you just say he died because he died and not for the sake of anyone else?' Because if you are then the answer is yes.. obviously. But what exactly are you trying to get at with that? So you deny that he died for your sins.. what's your point?
[Updated on: Sun, 10 May 2009 19:17] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #385459 is a reply to message #385426] |
Sun, 10 May 2009 19:27 |
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cheesesoda
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You are WAY off.
The question is why must we believe in Christ dying for our sins in order to get into Heaven? Jesus' dying (apparently) paid off the debt of our sins, right? The fact that we believe it or not would not change the fact that our debt has been paid. BUT if we MUST believe that our sins have been paid, then Christ could NOT have died for our sins. It would be the BELIEF that he died for our sins (though, he couldn't possibly have in this scenario) for us to get into Heaven.
whoa.
[Updated on: Sun, 10 May 2009 19:28] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #385464 is a reply to message #385426] |
Sun, 10 May 2009 21:41 |
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R315r4z0r
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Edit:
OHH I get what you are trying to say. But I think you're stopping your reasoning a bit short.
It's not simply that we are forgiven because he died for our sins. We are only forgiven if we believe he did.
Think of it sort of like a two part objective for each individual person's debt to be payed off. Him dying would meet the first objective, us believing would be the second objective.
It's not a question of whether or not it is reasonable or not, it's simply the rules of the game.
I mean, do you question why you collect $100 every time you pass 'Go' in Monopoly? It's the same situation here.
[Updated on: Sun, 10 May 2009 21:45] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #385469 is a reply to message #385464] |
Sun, 10 May 2009 22:11 |
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cheesesoda
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| R315r4z0r wrote on Mon, 11 May 2009 00:41 |
Edit:
OHH I get what you are trying to say. But I think you're stopping your reasoning a bit short.
It's not simply that we are forgiven because he died for our sins. We are only forgiven if we believe he did.
Think of it sort of like a two part objective for each individual person's debt to be payed off. Him dying would meet the first objective, us believing would be the second objective.
It's not a question of whether or not it is reasonable or not, it's simply the rules of the game.
I mean, do you question why you collect $100 every time you pass 'Go' in Monopoly? It's the same situation here.
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If a debt is forgiven, then a debt is forgiven. It's that debt that separates us from God and Heaven, and that was paid by Christ's death on the cross. Nothing else keeps us from God but our sinfulness. Which, again, is overtaken by Christ's death.
Besides, you just lead me back into my second point. If we have to BELIEVE that Christ died on the cross for our sins, then it wasn't the dying that clears our debt, but our acknowledgment of the falsified payment (that are are to believe is truth!).
Also, we're not capable of earning our way into Heaven. It's through Christ ONLY that we are able to achieve salvation. Having a 'second objective' negates Christ being the ONLY way.
whoa.
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #385486 is a reply to message #385442] |
Mon, 11 May 2009 02:32 |
DAUGHTER DIVER
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Recruit |
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| cheesesoda wrote on Sun, 10 May 2009 16:35 |
| DAUGHTER DIVER wrote on Sun, 10 May 2009 17:33 |
jesus is fiction right?
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Jesus was an actual person, but he was either a liar or a lunatic.
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jesus is liar or lunatic?
i think founder of Christianity is bouncer
he make jesus for prosperity
priest of christianity use ferrari
drink romane gonti
devour caviar+cracker+cheese, lobster,foie gras,matsuzaka beef[sirloin],king crab,matsutake mushroom,truffle
use rolex
ีwatch plasma or lcd tv
http://glamorousdaughter.blogspot.com
http://liberationarmyhqpartiii.blogspot.com/
http://riffraffland.blogspot.com/
WANTED
PERISH ONLY
Thaksin Shinawatra
2250 BATH
MARINE
if you hunger vast but don't have money steal rice for live
[Updated on: Mon, 11 May 2009 07:19] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #385489 is a reply to message #385437] |
Mon, 11 May 2009 02:51 |
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Dover
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| cheesesoda wrote on Sun, 10 May 2009 14:16 |
Nobody said that debts pay-offs can't have conditions to them, though. In order to reap the benefits of Jesus' death paying off my debt, I have to recognize that he paid off my debt. It's a simple requirement for such a huge debt to be paid.
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But that leaves you with the question of "why", which means if you buy into this you're left scratching your balls. Or using some generic cop-out answer like "It's FAITH LOL!" or "God moves in MYSTERIOUS WAYS LOL!".
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #385491 is a reply to message #385489] |
Mon, 11 May 2009 03:22 |
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Spoony
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i've already expressed my revulsion at the whole "christ died for my sins" business in the first place (in a nutshell, if the price for my 'forgiveness' is the torture and execution of somebody else, i'd rather be unforgiven)... but one supposedly has to accept jesus into your life to reap the benefits, and by refusing to do so (i.e. not being a christian) one is increasing jesus' suffering.
the irony is, the people who've been telling us this tripe for two thousand years... CLEARLY view the whole crucifixion business as a good thing. i can just imagine their inner joy if they were there, whereas if i was there i'd do what i could to stop it.
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Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #385492 is a reply to message #385491] |
Mon, 11 May 2009 03:37 |
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u6795
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| Spoony wrote on Mon, 11 May 2009 06:22 |
i've already expressed my revulsion at the whole "christ died for my sins" business in the first place (in a nutshell, if the price for my 'forgiveness' is the torture and execution of somebody else, i'd rather be unforgiven)... but one supposedly has to accept jesus into your life to reap the benefits, and by refusing to do so (i.e. not being a christian) one is increasing jesus' suffering.
the irony is, the people who've been telling us this tripe for two thousand years... CLEARLY view the whole crucifixion business as a good thing. i can just imagine their inner joy if they were there, whereas if i was there i'd do what i could to stop it.
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I'm not exactly 100% Christian, but I've been raised around Christians and am still sort of forced to go to Church and a Christian Youth Group, but from what I've seen people view Jesus's crucifixion with a sort of sad appreciation. I understand completely your point about how terrible it is to live at someones expense, but the way Catholics particularly view it is that albeit horrible the way he was killed, and sad the loss of the messiah etc, it was a display of love by God for us by sacrificing his only child etc. I do find that a little disturbing, but most Christians look beyond that and at the overall purpose of the act for inspiration/faith.
yeah
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #385499 is a reply to message #385492] |
Mon, 11 May 2009 07:54 |
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Spoony
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it's completely absurd and totally violates basic morality...
firstly how can anyone be guilty of a sin committed by Adam? even if the adam story is true (and it takes a pretty dumb fuck to think it is) how can anyone who wasn't even alive at the time bear responsibility for it? (the same goes to the two thousand years of Christian anti-semitism, thanks to one single line in one of the four gospels which claims that ALL jews are responsible for the crucifixion, not just those jews who happened to be there at the time and place and involved in the situation)
secondly, if god wanted to forgive our sins (legitimate ones or bullshit ones committed by someone else) why not just forgive them? why must someone else be tortured and killed as the price? if one decides to accept this "forgiveness", isn't one basically accepting some level of responsibility for the crucifixion?
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it was a display of love by God for us by sacrificing his only child etc
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yeah, we hear that sort of thing a lot, like how god's genocide of nearly the entire planet by a flood was anything other than evil, like how abraham's attempted murder of his innocent son was a noble act, etc etc etc
finally, here's a question... what will be the price for god's forgiveness for all the crimes he's allegedly committed? we could go through the bible and rack up a quite staggering death toll. in one of these threads i made the suggestion that if jesus IS god (as we're told, for all the sense it makes...) then maybe the crucifixion was god's punishment for all the evil he did, albeit an extremely lenient one, relatively speaking. certainly not an eye for an eye.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #385501 is a reply to message #385499] |
Mon, 11 May 2009 07:59 |
DAUGHTER DIVER
Messages: 40
Registered: March 2009
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| Spoony wrote on Mon, 11 May 2009 09:54 |
it's completely absurd and totally violates basic morality...
firstly how can anyone be guilty of a sin committed by Adam? even if the adam story is true (and it takes a pretty dumb fuck to think it is) how can anyone who wasn't even alive at the time bear responsibility for it? (the same goes to the two thousand years of Christian anti-semitism, thanks to one single line in one of the four gospels which claims that ALL jews are responsible for the crucifixion, not just those jews who happened to be there at the time and place and involved in the situation)
secondly, if god wanted to forgive our sins (legitimate ones or bullshit ones committed by someone else) why not just forgive them? why must someone else be tortured and killed as the price? if one decides to accept this "forgiveness", isn't one basically accepting some level of responsibility for the crucifixion?
| Quote: |
it was a display of love by God for us by sacrificing his only child etc
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yeah, we hear that sort of thing a lot, like how god's genocide of nearly the entire planet by a flood was anything other than evil, like how abraham's attempted murder of his innocent son was a noble act, etc etc etc
finally, here's a question... what will be the price for god's forgiveness for all the crimes he's allegedly committed? we could go through the bible and rack up a quite staggering death toll. in one of these threads i made the suggestion that if jesus IS god (as we're told, for all the sense it makes...) then maybe the crucifixion was god's punishment for all the evil he did, albeit an extremely lenient one, relatively speaking. certainly not an eye for an eye.
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you know shepherd boy?
http://glamorousdaughter.blogspot.com
http://liberationarmyhqpartiii.blogspot.com/
http://riffraffland.blogspot.com/
WANTED
PERISH ONLY
Thaksin Shinawatra
2250 BATH
MARINE
if you hunger vast but don't have money steal rice for live
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #385507 is a reply to message #385426] |
Mon, 11 May 2009 08:16 |
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Altzan
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Most of this discussion seems to me that, for those who do believe, they think that just simply believing in the fact that he died for our sins is ALL you have to do to be saved.
In Christianity, if you believe Jesus died for our sins, but you do not follow the Bible (5-step plan, live a faithful life, ask forgiveness for your own sins), then you're still condemned. Faith is not enough to save you.
Apologies if this is off-subject, but it seems like most of this discussion is about the debt being paid. That debt-being-paid aspect alone won't save anyone.
| cheesesoda wrote on Sun, 10 May 2009 14:24 |
So... answer the question, if Jesus died for our sins, why must we believe that he did for our debt to be paid? If someone paid my debt off, I wouldn't HAVE to acknowledge that the debt was paid for that to be true, right? I mean, this especially being so if I don't even know I HAD a debt to begin with.
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I'd say that if you don't believe a debt was paid, you also don't believe in the person who paid it, IE Jesus, and I don't think there will be anyone in Heaven who doesn't believe in Jesus (unless they don't have the mental capacity to understand the story, IE children who die at a very young age or those born mentally handicapped).
I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire
[Updated on: Mon, 11 May 2009 08:19] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Question for Christians [message #385530 is a reply to message #385426] |
Mon, 11 May 2009 11:13 |
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Altzan
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It doesn't. I'm trying to say that the debt being paid is not the only requirement for being saved.
I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire
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