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Re: Why did you vote for Obama? [message #362443 is a reply to message #362437]

Wed, 10 December 2008 13:11

Spoony
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Jecht wrote on Wed, 10 December 2008 20:20

I say "willpower" because from my viewpoint, resisting the urge to look at another woman lustfully (even if in an advertisement in say, Victoria's Secret while walking in the mall) takes willpower, discipline, self control, or whatever you'd like to call it. A small sacrifice in order to make my future wife happier, and an active demonstration in following the words of Christ. I don't claim to be perfect; I'm very far from perfect, but I do try my best.

Ah, the good old statement that a man who looks at a woman the wrong way has already committed adultery. While I will admit that some of Jesus' reported teachings were valid, some even being quite ahead of their time, some others - including this one - are just plain nonsense. As if there is no moral difference between thinking about doing something and actually doing it!

The Ten Commandments contains the same moral bewilderment.

Still, your "argument" against secularism (I'm stretching the term "argument", but you stretched the term "secularism" even further so let's not dwell on that) seems to mean that everyone has to follow your rules just so your faith doesn't find itself tested and your "willpower" faces no challenges. I can't help but be reminded of the Islamic demagogues who impose those oppressive veils on women; in countries like Saudi Arabia, men are so sexually repressed by their religion that a woman walking around wearing typical Western clothing is almost certainly going to be raped.

Jecht wrote on Wed, 10 December 2008 20:20

To answer your previous question, yes I did know what secularism meant, even if the use of the word was highly semantical and irrelevant to the point I was trying to make. A simple dictionary.com search affirms it:

If it was irrelevant to the point you were trying to make, it can only be because you were not answering my question; meaning what is wrong with you believing what you want to believe, me believing what I want to believe, and the town being big enough for the both of us? 'Cos according to you, it isn't.

You said: let's agree to disagree. That's what secularism IS - it means your religious beliefs are your own business, nobody else's and are not cause to interfere with other peoples' lives. It means you are free to believe what you want, and I am free to live my life without the poisoning effect of religious attempting to impose its own rules on every single aspect of society.

If only.

Jecht wrote on Wed, 10 December 2008 20:20

If you'd like to listen, and I mean really listen, I can address some of those points you made above against Christianity. The ones I don't know would have to be fielded by someone more learned in biblical teachings like a pastor.

If I didn't like to listen, and I mean really listen, I would not have bothered engaging in this debate in the first place. As for more learned than you, this is religion we're talking about, not science. Religion is the one subject where the teacher knows no more than the student. If this pastor of yours can make guesses based on unsupported ramblings, so can you. Your pastor is no more qualified to answer those questions than you are, or I am for that matter.

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		Why did you vote for Obama? By: DarkKnight on Thu, 06 November 2008 05:24
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Starbuzzz on Thu, 06 November 2008 07:31
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: DarkKnight on Thu, 06 November 2008 15:48
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Ma1kel on Thu, 06 November 2008 07:34
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: z310 on Thu, 06 November 2008 09:05
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: AmunRa on Fri, 07 November 2008 15:38
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Ryan3k on Sun, 09 November 2008 09:57
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Starbuzzz on Sun, 09 November 2008 13:35
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: cheesesoda on Sun, 09 November 2008 10:18
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Herr Surth on Sun, 09 November 2008 11:16
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: cheesesoda on Sun, 09 November 2008 11:20
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Herr Surth on Sun, 09 November 2008 12:13
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: cheesesoda on Sun, 09 November 2008 12:49
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Herr Surth on Sun, 09 November 2008 14:05
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Dover on Tue, 09 December 2008 15:16
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: GEORGE ZIMMER on Sun, 09 November 2008 12:27
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: liquidv2 on Sun, 09 November 2008 13:19
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: cheesesoda on Sun, 09 November 2008 14:56
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Rocko on Sun, 09 November 2008 15:04
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: DarkKnight on Mon, 10 November 2008 22:03
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: TD on Mon, 10 November 2008 22:26
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: DarkKnight on Tue, 11 November 2008 06:09
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Starbuzzz on Tue, 11 November 2008 19:31
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Herr Surth on Wed, 12 November 2008 03:26
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Starbuzzz on Wed, 12 November 2008 06:46
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: MGamer on Wed, 12 November 2008 13:32
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: DarkKnight on Tue, 11 November 2008 22:44
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: liquidv2 on Thu, 13 November 2008 01:49
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: DarkKnight on Thu, 13 November 2008 05:26
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: [NE]Fobby[GEN] on Sun, 09 November 2008 18:24
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Starbuzzz on Sun, 09 November 2008 18:48
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: u6795 on Sun, 09 November 2008 19:48
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: _SSnipe_ on Tue, 11 November 2008 21:54
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Ethenal on Sun, 09 November 2008 19:53
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: u6795 on Sun, 09 November 2008 19:57
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Herr Surth on Mon, 10 November 2008 05:51
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Barack Obama on Mon, 10 November 2008 11:49
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: MGamer on Mon, 10 November 2008 12:42
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: GEORGE ZIMMER on Mon, 10 November 2008 12:24
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: u6795 on Mon, 10 November 2008 12:39
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Barack Obama on Mon, 10 November 2008 20:26
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: JPNOD on Sat, 15 November 2008 02:37
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: DarkKnight on Sat, 15 November 2008 08:18
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Rocko on Sun, 16 November 2008 22:31
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: bisen11 on Mon, 17 November 2008 00:55
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Ryan3k on Tue, 18 November 2008 20:58
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Berkut on Wed, 19 November 2008 10:14
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: u6795 on Wed, 19 November 2008 12:42
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: MGamer on Wed, 19 November 2008 19:52
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: CarrierII on Thu, 20 November 2008 14:49
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: DarkKnight on Sun, 23 November 2008 10:23
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: u6795 on Sun, 23 November 2008 10:27
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: DarkKnight on Sun, 23 November 2008 10:33
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Ma1kel on Wed, 19 November 2008 05:30
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: luv2pb on Thu, 20 November 2008 14:23
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Herr Surth on Sun, 23 November 2008 11:18
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: cheesesoda on Sun, 23 November 2008 11:38
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: DarkKnight on Sun, 23 November 2008 11:51
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: [NE]Fobby[GEN] on Sun, 23 November 2008 12:04
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Ma1kel on Mon, 24 November 2008 06:05
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: NukeIt15 on Mon, 24 November 2008 08:41
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Ma1kel on Mon, 24 November 2008 11:25
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Berkut on Tue, 25 November 2008 20:46
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: DarkKnight on Wed, 26 November 2008 07:52
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Ryan3k on Wed, 26 November 2008 13:22
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Ryan3k on Mon, 24 November 2008 14:49
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: DarkKnight on Mon, 24 November 2008 15:07
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Starbuzzz on Tue, 25 November 2008 06:57
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: DarkKnight on Tue, 25 November 2008 10:59
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: cheesesoda on Wed, 26 November 2008 08:24
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: DarkKnight on Wed, 26 November 2008 10:24
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: DarkKnight on Wed, 26 November 2008 14:27
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: [NE]Fobby[GEN] on Wed, 26 November 2008 16:30
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: DarkKnight on Wed, 26 November 2008 16:45
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Starbuzzz on Wed, 26 November 2008 16:51
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Berkut on Wed, 26 November 2008 22:01
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: GEORGE ZIMMER on Fri, 28 November 2008 07:56
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Rocko on Fri, 28 November 2008 21:32
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: DarkKnight on Sat, 29 November 2008 00:23
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Spoony on Sat, 29 November 2008 05:32
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: GoArmy44 on Sat, 29 November 2008 13:16
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Ma1kel on Sat, 29 November 2008 07:21
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Spoony on Sat, 29 November 2008 11:39
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Ma1kel on Sat, 29 November 2008 11:43
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Spoony on Sat, 29 November 2008 11:48
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: cheesesoda on Sat, 29 November 2008 13:11
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Spoony on Sun, 30 November 2008 08:18
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: GoArmy44 on Tue, 02 December 2008 21:43
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Herr Surth on Wed, 03 December 2008 06:27
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: GoArmy44 on Wed, 03 December 2008 22:00
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: u6795 on Sat, 29 November 2008 20:35
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: cheesesoda on Sun, 30 November 2008 09:57
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: u6795 on Sun, 30 November 2008 14:24
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Spoony on Mon, 01 December 2008 05:40
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: cheesesoda on Mon, 01 December 2008 07:33
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Spoony on Wed, 03 December 2008 05:55
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: cheesesoda on Wed, 03 December 2008 06:59
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Spoony on Wed, 03 December 2008 09:42
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: cheesesoda on Sun, 30 November 2008 15:22
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Ryan3k on Sun, 30 November 2008 16:47
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Nunya on Tue, 02 December 2008 12:15
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Ryan3k on Tue, 02 December 2008 20:04
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Nunya on Tue, 02 December 2008 12:24
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: cheesesoda on Tue, 02 December 2008 13:15
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Herr Surth on Wed, 03 December 2008 07:00
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: cheesesoda on Wed, 03 December 2008 07:02
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Herr Surth on Wed, 03 December 2008 07:23
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Ma1kel on Wed, 03 December 2008 08:02
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Herr Surth on Wed, 03 December 2008 08:15
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: cheesesoda on Wed, 03 December 2008 08:54
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Herr Surth on Wed, 03 December 2008 09:25
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: cheesesoda on Wed, 03 December 2008 09:49
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: u6795 on Wed, 03 December 2008 12:41
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Ma1kel on Fri, 05 December 2008 07:47
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: u6795 on Fri, 05 December 2008 12:38
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Ma1kel on Sat, 06 December 2008 08:08
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: DarkKnight on Sat, 06 December 2008 09:00
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Ma1kel on Sat, 06 December 2008 23:18
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: DarkKnight on Sun, 07 December 2008 08:26
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Spoony on Sat, 06 December 2008 15:55
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Spoony on Thu, 04 December 2008 06:40
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: cheesesoda on Wed, 03 December 2008 12:58
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: GEORGE ZIMMER on Thu, 04 December 2008 11:15
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Spoony on Fri, 05 December 2008 01:21
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: GEORGE ZIMMER on Sun, 07 December 2008 13:31
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Spoony on Sun, 07 December 2008 13:53
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Ryan3k on Thu, 04 December 2008 14:21
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Ma1kel on Fri, 05 December 2008 08:14
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Ma1kel on Fri, 05 December 2008 10:03
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: cheesesoda on Fri, 05 December 2008 14:08
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Herr Surth on Sat, 06 December 2008 09:54
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: cheesesoda on Sun, 07 December 2008 08:31
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Starbuzzz on Sun, 07 December 2008 08:35
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Spoony on Sun, 07 December 2008 12:03
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: DarkKnight on Sun, 07 December 2008 18:25
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Starbuzzz on Sun, 07 December 2008 23:27
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Spoony on Mon, 08 December 2008 03:48
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Ma1kel on Mon, 08 December 2008 06:18
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: DarkKnight on Sun, 07 December 2008 09:17
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: cheesesoda on Sun, 07 December 2008 09:24
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: DarkKnight on Sun, 07 December 2008 09:49
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: cheesesoda on Sun, 07 December 2008 09:55
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Ryan3k on Sun, 07 December 2008 10:40
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Spoony on Sun, 07 December 2008 12:52
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: u6795 on Mon, 08 December 2008 04:41
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Spoony on Mon, 08 December 2008 04:51
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Jecht on Mon, 08 December 2008 06:16
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Spoony on Mon, 08 December 2008 18:17
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: cheesesoda on Mon, 08 December 2008 06:44
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Jecht on Mon, 08 December 2008 06:51
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: cheesesoda on Mon, 08 December 2008 08:08
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Jecht on Mon, 08 December 2008 08:28
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: cheesesoda on Mon, 08 December 2008 08:45
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Jecht on Mon, 08 December 2008 08:55
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Jecht on Mon, 08 December 2008 19:04
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Spoony on Mon, 08 December 2008 19:27
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: DarkKnight on Mon, 08 December 2008 19:41
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Spoony on Tue, 09 December 2008 07:41
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Jecht on Tue, 09 December 2008 15:07
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Spoony on Wed, 10 December 2008 06:02
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: DarkKnight on Wed, 10 December 2008 06:24
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Spoony on Wed, 10 December 2008 07:35
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: DarkKnight on Wed, 10 December 2008 18:59
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Dover on Wed, 10 December 2008 22:25
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: DarkKnight on Wed, 10 December 2008 22:44
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Dover on Thu, 11 December 2008 01:06
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: DarkKnight on Thu, 11 December 2008 06:15
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Spoony on Thu, 11 December 2008 08:15
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Jecht on Wed, 10 December 2008 12:20
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Spoony on Wed, 10 December 2008 13:11
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: DarkKnight on Wed, 10 December 2008 18:21
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Dover on Wed, 10 December 2008 18:41
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Jecht on Wed, 10 December 2008 20:36
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Jecht on Tue, 09 December 2008 04:09
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: cheesesoda on Mon, 08 December 2008 19:53
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: DarkKnight on Tue, 09 December 2008 07:11
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Spoony on Tue, 09 December 2008 07:58
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: cheesesoda on Tue, 09 December 2008 09:11
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Spoony on Tue, 09 December 2008 09:57
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: cheesesoda on Tue, 09 December 2008 10:40
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Spoony on Tue, 09 December 2008 11:14
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: DarkKnight on Mon, 08 December 2008 20:52
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Herr Surth on Tue, 09 December 2008 04:56
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: DarkKnight on Tue, 09 December 2008 06:04
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: cheesesoda on Mon, 08 December 2008 21:15
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: DarkKnight on Mon, 08 December 2008 21:44
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: cheesesoda on Mon, 08 December 2008 22:01
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: DarkKnight on Mon, 08 December 2008 22:03
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: NukeIt15 on Mon, 08 December 2008 21:31
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: nikki6ixx on Mon, 08 December 2008 21:54
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: cheesesoda on Mon, 08 December 2008 22:16
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: DarkKnight on Tue, 09 December 2008 00:09
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: cheesesoda on Tue, 09 December 2008 06:35
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: DarkKnight on Tue, 09 December 2008 06:38
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Herr Surth on Tue, 09 December 2008 06:20
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Herr Surth on Tue, 09 December 2008 06:45
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Herr Surth on Tue, 09 December 2008 09:59
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Herr Surth on Tue, 09 December 2008 11:47
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: cheesesoda on Tue, 09 December 2008 16:09
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Dover on Tue, 09 December 2008 16:16
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: cheesesoda on Wed, 10 December 2008 07:10
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: cheesesoda on Wed, 10 December 2008 18:34
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: u6795 on Wed, 10 December 2008 18:43
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: cheesesoda on Wed, 10 December 2008 20:48
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: liquidv2 on Wed, 10 December 2008 21:08
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: cheesesoda on Wed, 10 December 2008 21:34
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Ma1kel on Wed, 17 December 2008 08:21
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: liquidv2 on Wed, 10 December 2008 21:43
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Jecht on Thu, 11 December 2008 11:56
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Fabian on Tue, 16 December 2008 17:13
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: NukeIt15 on Tue, 16 December 2008 18:21
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Fabian on Tue, 16 December 2008 23:58
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Dover on Wed, 17 December 2008 00:28
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: cheesesoda on Wed, 17 December 2008 08:03
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: cheesesoda on Wed, 17 December 2008 08:24
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Ma1kel on Wed, 17 December 2008 10:45
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: u6795 on Wed, 17 December 2008 13:21
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: cheesesoda on Wed, 17 December 2008 13:26
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: nikki6ixx on Wed, 17 December 2008 13:27
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Ma1kel on Wed, 17 December 2008 13:28
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: u6795 on Wed, 17 December 2008 14:01
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: cheesesoda on Wed, 17 December 2008 13:39
		Re: Why did you vote for Obama? By: Ma1kel on Wed, 17 December 2008 14:03

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