Home » Tiberian Technologies / Blackhand Studios » Tiberian Technologies Forum » Fixing... Points?
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #348296 is a reply to message #348274] |
Mon, 25 August 2008 23:56   |
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Spoony
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| liquidv2 wrote on Mon, 25 August 2008 17:28 |
[color=skyblue]like i suggested, you should make a topic on the clanwars forum about the pointmod; each person can post once on their main account saying whether or not they want it to be used in clanwars
no one will be able to get with using other accounts since clanwar players have a pretty good of who people are and what names they use
you can stop using the "polls are flawed" excuse because you know what the outcome of this would be
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It's sad you keep ignoring the main reason I don't let polls determine league policy, even though I've repeated it about seven or eight times. But then, the anti-pointsfix crowd never did like to, you know, read what the person they're arguing with is saying.
The fact the anti-pointsfix crowd have been caught manipulating polls several times in ways that would make Robert Mugabe, if by some chance he happened to be watching, reach for a notepad... is really just an interesting aside.
| liquidv2 wrote on Mon, 25 August 2008 17:28 |
no one is going to make their own league or try to overthrow yours
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You are probably correct in the first part, probably nobody will go to the trouble of making another league. As for trying to overthrow mine, if you bothered to read my posts you'd have noted that one or two of the people currently bitching about the pointsfix tried that before, only last time it was because we banned a pointpusher.
| liquidv2 wrote on Mon, 25 August 2008 17:28 |
the fact that you didn't side with the vast majority of your league on the implementation of the pointmod makes you look like a real penis in the eyes of a lot of people
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I can live with that, considering that every other time I've gone against the majority of clanwars, it turned out that I was right and everyone else was wrong... sometimes with absolutely disastrous consequences if the 'majority' had been heeded. For starters, there are at least two situations when the league would've been completely closed, probably for good.
I pointed all this out to you before several times and you seemed strangely unmoved by it, which is why I frankly doubt your sincerity when you pretend you give a shit about the players of clanwars...
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Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #348379 is a reply to message #346858] |
Tue, 26 August 2008 22:01 |
Rocko
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everyone deserves de right t'complain and democracy should always be da damn most impo'tant
black and proud
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #348386 is a reply to message #348376] |
Wed, 27 August 2008 01:01 |
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Spoony
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| liquidv2 wrote on Tue, 26 August 2008 23:34 |
the point i'm making about having a topic where a single response from a clanwars player counts as a vote is that your league doesn't want the pointmod; nothing more, nothing less
even when that topic would reveal the truth it would make no difference
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That topic already exists; it's called the debate thread (which originally started as a reference to roni's petition). The beauty of that debate is you can see why people think what they think.
So, when you read the following:
Simpee: "I don't like the pointsfix because you don't get enough points for tankfighting"
Karmai: "I don't like the pointsfix because westwood didn't really intend it"
Anthrax: "I don't like the pointsfix because I should get points based on how much damage I'm doing"
Clearshot: "I don't like the pointsfix because spoony AR's buffer maps"
... you can make a note of the fact that every reason they've given for not liking the pointsfix has been complete bullshit. Perhaps you think that isn't important when an overall decision is made; perhaps you think that enough people say 2+2=5, even if some asshole called spoony is showing you a calculator showing otherwise, then the maths books should be rewritten accordingly.... I personally do not subscribe to this way of thinking.
| liquidv2 wrote on Tue, 26 August 2008 23:34 |
you've made it clear that their wants and opinions aren't the driving factor behind the decisions you make; in some cases they hold no weight whatsoever
which you say is with good reason, and i'll have to go with you on that since i have no reason not to
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Indeed, since I can just repeat what I've said to you over and over again and you never seem to take on board; the people you're so quick to defend are one cheater, one person who tried to kill the league, three people with a consistent history of disregarding rules, and one person who says clanwars is about to die, he can stop it, and he chooses not to.
If democracy means the opinion of someone like the above is worth the same amount as mine, even if the above-mentioned person has been categorically wrong about every single thing they've said without exception, then thank you but I don't want democracy.
Democracy's a bit like the pointsfix,. Some people don't want the pointsfix in their servers. I'm fine with that, no matter how highly I think of the pointsfix itself. I don't want democracy in my league, and that's something you can either be fine with or you can carry on ranting... whichever makes you feel better.
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #348463 is a reply to message #346858] |
Wed, 27 August 2008 19:19 |
kong009
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kong009: "I don't like the pointsfix because it drops player count in servers."
My data suggest that the server settings are not at fault for the initial player count drop. The only change we made (until recently) was to add the pointsfix. Turn that around all you want to and say this doesn't explain the increase in players recently, but the fact remains, we suffered a player loss due to the pointsfix.
Again, I want to stress that my issue with the pointsfix is I very much worry about MY servers, the ones I moderate, losing players due to a points system we had NOTHING to do with but given NO CHOICE whether to use it or not. The fact that n00bstories has not lost its players gives me some hope, but I am not convinced.
So you are going to give servers the chance to run without the fix, but that isn't free, is it? Essentially now the choice I have to give to my regulars is "Would you rather have more credits and sacrifice being ranked on a global ladder or would you suffer through limited credits and be globally ranked?"
When I step back and look at that question and the circumstances surrounding it, I realize that only reason for this is this mandatory pointsfix I had no hand in creating or agree with.
What I'm trying to understand is where you come off thinking that it's okay for you to throw this controversial pointsfix on a game that has been around for many years, make it mandatory, and then wonder where all the opposition is coming from. You're not surprised that people are resisting this change... are you?
Furthermore, please don't tell me, or anybody else for that matter, that you are interested in fixing everything you can possibly fix and then host a poll at the top of this section of the forums asking if you should fix the outside pt-bug or not (or make it mandatory, to be more specific). Clearly that bug has the potential to change the outcome of games as well, but there is some inconsistency there with how you are approaching the pointsfix vs. outside pt-bug, wouldn't you agree?
[Updated on: Wed, 27 August 2008 19:26] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #348473 is a reply to message #348463] |
Thu, 28 August 2008 00:20 |
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Crimson
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| kong009 wrote on Wed, 27 August 2008 19:19 |
kong009: "I don't like the pointsfix because it drops player count in servers."
My data suggest that the server settings are not at fault for the initial player count drop. The only change we made (until recently) was to add the pointsfix. Turn that around all you want to and say this doesn't explain the increase in players recently, but the fact remains, we suffered a player loss due to the pointsfix.
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Jelly has been running the points fix on the AOW1 server for over a year, as have I. There are plenty of other factors that are much more likely to have caused the drop in players, such as RenGuard being less effective, new games coming out, compilations like TFD not coming out, and people of Renegade age being on summer break. There should be a boost as kids get back in school and the weather gets colder, kids getting $5 Renegade in their stockings, and hopefully the TT patch.
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Again, I want to stress that my issue with the pointsfix is I very much worry about MY servers, the ones I moderate, losing players due to a points system we had NOTHING to do with but given NO CHOICE whether to use it or not. The fact that n00bstories has not lost its players gives me some hope, but I am not convinced.
So you are going to give servers the chance to run without the fix, but that isn't free, is it? Essentially now the choice I have to give to my regulars is "Would you rather have more credits and sacrifice being ranked on a global ladder or would you suffer through limited credits and be globally ranked?"
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The ladder is only a price to pay if you want it to be. I believe the players have wanted a working ladder ever since Renegade came out and it's not a stretch to agree that the current formula is a long way from being a good indicator of skill. But, we simply can't allow knowingly-unbalanced servers to contribute their data when you're trying to calculate skill. It doesn't make any sense to do so.
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When I step back and look at that question and the circumstances surrounding it, I realize that only reason for this is this mandatory pointsfix I had no hand in creating or agree with.
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Absolute proof has been provided as to why this fix was both intended by Westwood and balances the game. Over a year of gameplay testing has shown that the only players who are negatively affected by the fix are the ones who use bullshit tactics, and the players who are positively affected are the ones who play seriously and contribute to their teams.
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What I'm trying to understand is where you come off thinking that it's okay for you to throw this controversial pointsfix on a game that has been around for many years, make it mandatory, and then wonder where all the opposition is coming from. You're not surprised that people are resisting this change... are you?
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Actually I was and am stunned. I have had so much more fun in the game since I added the fix to my servers that I can not fathom why anyone is resisting it at all.
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Furthermore, please don't tell me, or anybody else for that matter, that you are interested in fixing everything you can possibly fix and then host a poll at the top of this section of the forums asking if you should fix the outside pt-bug or not (or make it mandatory, to be more specific). Clearly that bug has the potential to change the outcome of games as well, but there is some inconsistency there with how you are approaching the pointsfix vs. outside pt-bug, wouldn't you agree?
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I didn't create the poll. I doubt we ever intended to let the fake majority here decide the issue anyway. I believe it was more a forum for feedback so that we could figure out if there was any good reason not to fix it. I use outside PTs myself but I'm willing to work with my teammates to create new tactics if we lose that option that never should have been there in the first place.
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #348485 is a reply to message #348463] |
Thu, 28 August 2008 04:07 |
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Spoony
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| liquidv2 wrote |
i just wanted you to come out and say Hey, I'm siding with myself and doing what I want
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What was wrong with the last dozen or so times when I very carefully explained why policy is determined by admins instead of democratically? When has this ever been a secret?
| liquidv2 wrote |
a simple "Post Yes or No" topic would demonstrate my point that they don't want it; an open debate is not even remotely close to a poll
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and you'd prefer a yes or no topic, presumably because it makes you feel better about the fact that every single thing everyone on your side has said about the pointsfix has been wrong, without exception... it beggars belief why you think that's not worth pointing out.
| kong009 wrote on Wed, 27 August 2008 21:19 |
Again, I want to stress that my issue with the pointsfix is I very much worry about MY servers, the ones I moderate, losing players due to a points system we had NOTHING to do with but given NO CHOICE whether to use it or not.
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You'd need to talk to Jelly about that, surely?
| kong009 wrote on Wed, 27 August 2008 21:19 |
So you are going to give servers the chance to run without the fix, but that isn't free, is it? Essentially now the choice I have to give to my regulars is "Would you rather have more credits and sacrifice being ranked on a global ladder or would you suffer through limited credits and be globally ranked?"
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uh, I seem to recall you already decided that getting credits for no reason was more important than being on TT's ladder. now it seems you want it both ways, at the expense of the ladder's fairness.
no. just no.
| kong009 wrote on Wed, 27 August 2008 21:19 |
Furthermore, please don't tell me, or anybody else for that matter, that you are interested in fixing everything you can possibly fix and then host a poll at the top of this section of the forums asking if you should fix the outside pt-bug or not (or make it mandatory, to be more specific). Clearly that bug has the potential to change the outcome of games as well, but there is some inconsistency there with how you are approaching the pointsfix vs. outside pt-bug, wouldn't you agree?
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As we've already explained... the pointsbug makes the game less fair. That's a cast-iron fact, and even most of the anti-pointsfix crowd have acknowledged it in their own way... just look at bllybobb talking about how 'exhilariting' it is when the wrong team wins because they spent more time shooting stuff they don't damage.
(it is quite funny when the next day he rants at a teammate for getting a higher score than him and asks for the points system to be changed because of it...)
Individual points are a crucial part of how ladder points are determined; they always have been. Admittedly I do have some ideas on redressing that a bit but they still will be paramount. No, we are not going to give ladder points to people who did NO DAMAGE just because they shot tanks with a ramjet. If you want that bullshit to go on in your server, go right ahead for all I care. We are not going to give them ladder for it.
The outside-PT bug isn't even remotely comparable.
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #348504 is a reply to message #348492] |
Thu, 28 August 2008 07:41 |
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Spoony
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| RoShamBo wrote on Thu, 28 August 2008 07:32 |
If the ladder is about "skill", then why does the pointsfix, starting credits or all other things have anything to do with it? If a player is skilled, he will work with his team, he will try to get credits the honest way. Your ladder code could pick up on that.
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Both the pointsfix and high starting credits misbalance the game, which devalues the ladder.
| RoShamBo wrote on Thu, 28 August 2008 07:32 |
If you're just going off score then it's not about skill at all, it's just how long can we pointwhore for.
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Elaborate, please... tell me exactly what you're trying to say, in real practical terms. No rhetoric allowed.
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #348530 is a reply to message #348512] |
Thu, 28 August 2008 12:35 |
gkl21
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That ladder works basically the same way WOL Ladder does...
Infact, for that ladder to be more correct, teamwork would be required in which the pointfix does promote.
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #348533 is a reply to message #348532] |
Thu, 28 August 2008 13:06 |
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sadukar09
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| RoShamBo wrote on Thu, 28 August 2008 21:05 |
| Spoony wrote on Thu, 28 August 2008 15:41 |
| RoShamBo wrote on Thu, 28 August 2008 07:32 |
If you're just going off score then it's not about skill at all, it's just how long can we pointwhore for.
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Elaborate, please... tell me exactly what you're trying to say, in real practical terms. No rhetoric allowed.
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It's not hard to sit with an artilery pounding at a building to get MVP.
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Other team must be retarded to let you sit very long.
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[19:16:48] <APBBR> @ryan3k: THE ENFIELD DEFIES THE LAWS OF PHYSICS BECAUSE THE BULLETS INSTANTLY HIT THEIR TARGETS LOL
[19:16:52] <APBBR> @ryan3k: CHRONO TECHNOLOGY IN TEH BULLETS
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[22:48]<APBBR> @V0LK0V: AOL COMING UR WAI K
[22:48] <APBBR> Host: Quitting due to Westwood Online connection loss.
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #348538 is a reply to message #346858] |
Thu, 28 August 2008 13:23 |
Roni
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Hello,
Is there anyway to get an update on one post from Mac as to where the progress of the patch is at and where and when will be tested? There are alot of threads and getting bits and pieces here and there and reading threw every page is quite cumbersome. Can we just get a simple updated recap somewhere? I want to make sure I understand clearly that TT will be making an pointunfix.dll with the patch for server owners?
Just to clarify I proposed the anti-point fix petition because initially it sounded like it was going to be a mandatory part of the patch. I aimed to collect signatures from active gameplayers to send to EA legal department and their Operations department to let them know that there are alot of players who would like to have the option of playing with the original point system. This was my intent because I felt as though the voice of alot of players were not being heard so I created this petition.
http://www.mcd-server.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=3067
Putting that aside, as I understand now there will be a server side option and I feel our voice has been heard. I am not here to debate on whether one view is right or wrong. There are literally 50 pages plus of debate on multiple sites on the point fix option of the patch. I have simply from the beginning just asked for the option to choose what to have on my server.
I really don't care much for the ladder. I have my own ladder system and prizes I give out each month so being part of this new ladder system doesn't mean much to me but that is simply my opinion and it is clear that some players don't agree that they should be opted out of the new ladder system. I appreciate TT taking the time to listen to all perspectives.
If you truly want to get the most out of the beta test may I suggest the following;
-Try having servers test with the pointfix and pointunfix for a period of time.
-Try to test in smaller and larger servers be part of the test
If the pointunfix is truly ready to be tested I would like to offer my server as test server. We are a smaller community with around 260 registered members with only a few months under our belt but we host generally between 15-30 players most of the time in AOW. We have a 50 player AOW and a 30 player Sniper Server Up.
Thanks
Roni
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #348543 is a reply to message #348532] |
Thu, 28 August 2008 13:35 |
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Spoony
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| RoShamBo wrote on Thu, 28 August 2008 16:05 |
It's not hard to sit with an artilery pounding at a building to get MVP.
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Without skill and teamwork, the enemy will easily stop you.
| Cabal8616 wrote |
Yeah, I've seen pointwhores/killwhores a-plenty who have the highest score/kill count, yet their team still loses.
I feel like taking a wrench and shoving it into parts that should not be described on this forum when people do that.
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Then you may be interested to know one of my plans for the ladder, which is that all players on the losing team lose the same amount of ladder points regardless of their individual score. (though there is a concession to players who only just joined)
It means personal score only counts for anything if your team wins, and it also means winratio plays a far higher role in determining who's top of the ladder.
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #348594 is a reply to message #348575] |
Thu, 28 August 2008 23:04 |
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jnz
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| Crimson wrote on Fri, 29 August 2008 01:50 |
| RoShamBo wrote on Thu, 28 August 2008 05:32 |
If the ladder is about "skill", then why does the pointsfix, starting credits or all other things have anything to do with it? If a player is skilled, he will work with his team, he will try to get credits the honest way. Your ladder code could pick up on that. If you're just going off score then it's not about skill at all, it's just how long can we pointwhore for.
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Apparently there is a "skill" metric hidden in the code for Renegade that only RoShamBo knows about. 
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Since when did WW/EA hand over the source to you?
[Updated on: Thu, 28 August 2008 23:05] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #348597 is a reply to message #348538] |
Thu, 28 August 2008 23:33 |
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Goztow
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| Roni wrote on Thu, 28 August 2008 22:23 |
Hello,
Is there anyway to get an update on one post from Mac as to where the progress of the patch is at and where and when will be tested? There are alot of threads and getting bits and pieces here and there and reading threw every page is quite cumbersome. Can we just get a simple updated recap somewhere? I want to make sure I understand clearly that TT will be making an pointunfix.dll with the patch for server owners?
Just to clarify I proposed the anti-point fix petition because initially it sounded like it was going to be a mandatory part of the patch. I aimed to collect signatures from active gameplayers to send to EA legal department and their Operations department to let them know that there are alot of players who would like to have the option of playing with the original point system. This was my intent because I felt as though the voice of alot of players were not being heard so I created this petition.
http://www.mcd-server.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=3067
Putting that aside, as I understand now there will be a server side option and I feel our voice has been heard. I am not here to debate on whether one view is right or wrong. There are literally 50 pages plus of debate on multiple sites on the point fix option of the patch. I have simply from the beginning just asked for the option to choose what to have on my server.
I really don't care much for the ladder. I have my own ladder system and prizes I give out each month so being part of this new ladder system doesn't mean much to me but that is simply my opinion and it is clear that some players don't agree that they should be opted out of the new ladder system. I appreciate TT taking the time to listen to all perspectives.
If you truly want to get the most out of the beta test may I suggest the following;
-Try having servers test with the pointfix and pointunfix for a period of time.
-Try to test in smaller and larger servers be part of the test
If the pointunfix is truly ready to be tested I would like to offer my server as test server. We are a smaller community with around 260 registered members with only a few months under our belt but we host generally between 15-30 players most of the time in AOW. We have a 50 player AOW and a 30 player Sniper Server Up.
Thanks
Roni
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Dear God, I spotted intelligence! Thank you!
This is the latest "official" statement:
| "mac" |
Hey guys,
Let me say a few words of the TT team leader, and about this issue.
It's not set in stone that we'll be fixing the ladder for this first patch. We're really focussing on the game and fixing issues, and we think this is m Rocked Over ore important than the ladder, at this point. Everything that is being discussed are ideas. They're not final.
The truth is also that one can never satisfy everyone. Fixing the pointsfix will make one side go mad, not fixing it will make the other side go mad. That is why we're giving server owners the chance to disable it, because we're very well aware that it is a very controversial issue. That's also what testing is for. There will be extensive organized tests on the weekends for several months..
For those people who say noone has elected us to make a patch. I question you - if we're not doing it, who else is? It took me about 2 months to get this team together, and another few months to actually work out on where we're heading. All the best coders of this community are working together now towards one common goal. That's a first. If you really think we're heading in the wrong direction, then please come join us. I'm serious. If someone wants to contribute he's welcome.
There have been extensive talks with Electronic Arts about various things, including Source Code and Support. I'm not allowed to speak about details, but let's just say we're very happy with EA currently.
Regards,
mac
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You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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