Home » Tiberian Technologies / Blackhand Studios » Tiberian Technologies Forum » in regard to the points fix
| Re: in regard to the points fix [message #342167 is a reply to message #338417] |
Sun, 20 July 2008 23:39   |
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Crimson
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We should also have a modification for server owners that lets people get vehicles without a WF/AS and advanced infantry without a Hand/Bar.
My brain can't wrap around this "logic". The points fix forces players to help their team to get points instead of doing retarded things like mini-gunner vs harvester to get an illogical and disproportionate amount of credits.
And let's not forget to mention the mammy situation. On bugged servers, a new player buys a mammoth tank and his teammates jump on his shit about it. This is a HORRIBLE first experience for a new player. Getting yelled at for repairing a building, and then getting yelled at for buying an expensive, powerful tank... that makes NO sense. Not to mention the new player who gets yelled at for successfully destroying an enemy building (the WF) because it means Nod will probably lose.
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: in regard to the points fix [message #342176 is a reply to message #342167] |
Mon, 21 July 2008 00:07 |
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Spoony
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| Crimson wrote on Mon, 21 July 2008 01:39 |
And let's not forget to mention the mammy situation. On bugged servers, a new player buys a mammoth tank and his teammates jump on his shit about it. This is a HORRIBLE first experience for a new player. Getting yelled at for repairing a building, and then getting yelled at for buying an expensive, powerful tank... that makes NO sense. Not to mention the new player who gets yelled at for successfully destroying an enemy building (the WF) because it means Nod will probably lose.
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I've been saying exactly this for ages. You get the same people saying the pointsfix is bad for "new players" (absurd in itself) - so you point this ^^ out, and the only response is a rather embarrassed silence.
I do have a suggestion though - this post is both aimed at people like jelly and homey who've expressed the desire to have players able to get credits the same way as before, and to my TT colleagues.
How about this:
The pointsfix would be mandatory, but the credits side of it would be server-side optional. In other words you've got the following choices:
- Pointsfix, i.e. both points and credits are 'fixed'
- Half-pointsfix i.e. points are 'fixed', credits are still applied on the weird nonsensical bugged system
I would not overly object to 'half-pointsfix' games being laddered... for the same reason I don't object to !donate being used in laddered games in the later stages of the game, just not in the first few minutes.
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| Re: in regard to the points fix [message #342181 is a reply to message #342176] |
Mon, 21 July 2008 00:44 |
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Chuck Norris
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Sounds like the best idea so far. I actually think you're being overly generous by allowing them to count for the ladder, since even though points are the same, with more credits, you have a better chance of making more points. Too bad there's no way to have it run full pointsfix normally, and half for only marathon servers.
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| Re: in regard to the points fix [message #342186 is a reply to message #342184] |
Mon, 21 July 2008 01:28 |
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EvilWhiteDragon
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| liquidv2 wrote on Mon, 21 July 2008 10:01 |
that's a good idea
i also remember someone saying that on the jelly forums over half a year ago
it makes sense
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IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE, really, as you can still "win" a game with doing no damage to attacking vehicles. I mean, soldier & engi VS tank, engi doing more damage with C4 (thus with this idea, getting more points) soldier, being utterly useless against tanks, gets fewer points BUT GETS MORE CREDITS TO DO OTHER USELESS STUFF LIKE SBH WHORING....
Something that would make sense:
Changing the point credits ratio. This way, if you deal 100 damage to a med with a remote, you'll get 10 points, but for example 100 credits. If you do the same thing with a soldier, you'll get about 0,5? points thus giving you 5 credits.
Of course, it would mean htat you could get massive amounts of credits when attacking buildings, but at least new players understand it.
Also, it allows some vehicles to be actually useful. With a mammoth, you would give away loads of credits with this RIDICULOUS IDEA.
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| Re: in regard to the points fix [message #342193 is a reply to message #338417] |
Mon, 21 July 2008 02:34 |
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Ghostshaw
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Lets jsut allow increasing credits per points. It keeps the fairness introduced by the pointsfix (IE you get more for doing more damage) but you can get similar ot the same kinds of money flows as without the pointsfix (obviously that would be up to teh server owners).
It might need a little fine tweaking though. Like ahving separate multipliers for vehicles/infantry/buildings (getting alot more credits for shooting/repairing a building sounds like a bad plan IMO), and maybe even for groups like infantry vs vehicles, vehicles vs infantry, infantry vs infantry, vehicles vs vehicles and vehicles/infantry vs buildings.
But then again thats what a beta test is for.
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| Re: in regard to the points fix [message #342198 is a reply to message #342193] |
Mon, 21 July 2008 03:20 |
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EvilWhiteDragon
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| Ghostshaw wrote on Mon, 21 July 2008 11:34 |
Lets jsut allow increasing credits per points. It keeps the fairness introduced by the pointsfix (IE you get more for doing more damage) but you can get similar ot the same kinds of money flows as without the pointsfix (obviously that would be up to teh server owners).
It might need a little fine tweaking though. Like ahving separate multipliers for vehicles/infantry/buildings (getting alot more credits for shooting/repairing a building sounds like a bad plan IMO), and maybe even for groups like infantry vs vehicles, vehicles vs infantry, infantry vs infantry, vehicles vs vehicles and vehicles/infantry vs buildings.
But then again thats what a beta test is for.
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Well, indeed, but then at least certain people should listen to the idea, and be willing to try it. That seems to be most of the problem here.
Not having the will to even try something else will be impossible to fix.
BlackIntel admin/founder/PR dude (not a coder)
Please visit http://www.blackintel.org/
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Governments should be afraid of their people.
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| Re: in regard to the points fix [message #342293 is a reply to message #342186] |
Mon, 21 July 2008 12:07 |
Jellybe4n
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| EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 21 July 2008 04:28 |
| liquidv2 wrote on Mon, 21 July 2008 10:01 |
that's a good idea
i also remember someone saying that on the jelly forums over half a year ago
it makes sense
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IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE, really, as you can still "win" a game with doing no damage to attacking vehicles. I mean, soldier & engi VS tank, engi doing more damage with C4 (thus with this idea, getting more points) soldier, being utterly useless against tanks, gets fewer points BUT GETS MORE CREDITS TO DO OTHER USELESS STUFF LIKE SBH WHORING....
Something that would make sense:
Changing the point credits ratio. This way, if you deal 100 damage to a med with a remote, you'll get 10 points, but for example 100 credits. If you do the same thing with a soldier, you'll get about 0,5? points thus giving you 5 credits.
Of course, it would mean htat you could get massive amounts of credits when attacking buildings, but at least new players understand it.
Also, it allows some vehicles to be actually useful. With a mammoth, you would give away loads of credits with this RIDICULOUS IDEA.
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You do not own every server on Renegade, a suggestion has been put forward that plenty agree with. The majority should decide this. If you force this too much, you will feel far more resistance than when you agree to bend on things.
I didn't want anything to do with it, but I've relaxed that stand and have been willing to reason with the TT team and find a medium. If you refuse to budge, we won't get anywhere and end up back where we started.
[Updated on: Mon, 21 July 2008 12:10] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: in regard to the points fix [message #342294 is a reply to message #342198] |
Mon, 21 July 2008 12:12 |
Jellybe4n
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Registered: August 2004
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| EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 21 July 2008 06:20 |
| Ghostshaw wrote on Mon, 21 July 2008 11:34 |
Lets jsut allow increasing credits per points. It keeps the fairness introduced by the pointsfix (IE you get more for doing more damage) but you can get similar ot the same kinds of money flows as without the pointsfix (obviously that would be up to teh server owners).
It might need a little fine tweaking though. Like ahving separate multipliers for vehicles/infantry/buildings (getting alot more credits for shooting/repairing a building sounds like a bad plan IMO), and maybe even for groups like infantry vs vehicles, vehicles vs infantry, infantry vs infantry, vehicles vs vehicles and vehicles/infantry vs buildings.
But then again thats what a beta test is for.
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Well, indeed, but then at least certain people should listen to the idea, and be willing to try it. That seems to be most of the problem here.
Not having the will to even try something else will be impossible to fix.
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The half points fix is what we'd like to try, how about you listen to that idea and let us test that out?
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| Re: in regard to the points fix [message #342306 is a reply to message #338417] |
Mon, 21 July 2008 13:23 |
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Goztow
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7 pages of the same arguments is enough. I'll close this topic here and if someone has valid arguments to re-open it, then PM me.
Edit: reopened on Jellybean's request.
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[Updated on: Tue, 22 July 2008 04:22] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: in regard to the points fix [message #342410 is a reply to message #338417] |
Tue, 22 July 2008 03:27 |
Jamie or NuneGa
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A GDI soldier shooting the harv will keep it from self healing, so if there are 3 timed c4 on the harv this soldier is helping his team... therefore in smaller games this soldier is helping his team by shooting the harv.
Jamie is a guys name in Europe...
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| Re: in regard to the points fix [message #342426 is a reply to message #338417] |
Tue, 22 July 2008 06:58 |
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GoTWhisKéY
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imo, either implement the pointfix, or don't. Don't give server owners the choice... all thats going to do is split the community. The people who are against the pointfix, just don't know any better and like many people have stated, are stubborn and afraid of change. The pointsfix is all positive - please implement it in the patch and force it on to all clients and servers. Thanks.
Old School Renny
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| Re: in regard to the points fix [message #342429 is a reply to message #342410] |
Tue, 22 July 2008 07:12 |
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| NuneGa wrote on Tue, 22 July 2008 11:27 |
A GDI soldier shooting the harv will keep it from self healing, so if there are 3 timed c4 on the harv this soldier is helping his team... therefore in smaller games this soldier is helping his team by shooting the harv.
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"POINTS, NOT DAMAGE, ARE THE ONLY THINGS AFFECTED BY THIS PATCH" - therefore, you're still helping your team, but, the soldier doesn't get stupid amounts of money for dealing tiny amounts of damage.
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| halokid wrote on Mon, 11 October 2010 08:46 |
| R315r4z0r wrote on Mon, 11 October 2010 15:35 |
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the hell is that?
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| Re: in regard to the points fix [message #342437 is a reply to message #342294] |
Tue, 22 July 2008 08:35 |
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EvilWhiteDragon
Messages: 3751
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Location: The Netherlands
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| Jellybe4n wrote on Mon, 21 July 2008 21:12 |
| EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 21 July 2008 06:20 |
| Ghostshaw wrote on Mon, 21 July 2008 11:34 |
Lets jsut allow increasing credits per points. It keeps the fairness introduced by the pointsfix (IE you get more for doing more damage) but you can get similar ot the same kinds of money flows as without the pointsfix (obviously that would be up to teh server owners).
It might need a little fine tweaking though. Like ahving separate multipliers for vehicles/infantry/buildings (getting alot more credits for shooting/repairing a building sounds like a bad plan IMO), and maybe even for groups like infantry vs vehicles, vehicles vs infantry, infantry vs infantry, vehicles vs vehicles and vehicles/infantry vs buildings.
But then again thats what a beta test is for.
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Well, indeed, but then at least certain people should listen to the idea, and be willing to try it. That seems to be most of the problem here.
Not having the will to even try something else will be impossible to fix.
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The half points fix is what we'd like to try, how about you listen to that idea and let us test that out?
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I'm not stating that it can't be tried, I'm just saying that it just doesn't fix the imbalance. For exactly that reason I suggest something else, of which I would appreciate you to give comments on.
Of course, we're already bending, as we are actively trying to find a solution that works for everyone, and at least I am trying to NOT unbalance the game.
With your idea, in al respect, you will indeed fix the point problem, but still people will get the shotgunner to attack the harv to get credits. While it is good that they try to get credits, but they could also do so with an engi, and get credits and points. With the engi they have a bigger chance of actually killing the harvester than with the shotgunner, right?
For exactly that reason I think that a half point fix is not good, as for an other example, mammoths still won't work as supposed. This still causes newb player to be shouted on, because now they are not giving away points, but credits.
So, because of the aforementions reasons, could you please tell me what you do and don't like of my previously posted ideas? As I have a feeling you're just totally ignoring them. And since you're not commenting on them, I can't bend it to suit your needs.
I'm not trying to make your life harder, but you do need to cooperate.
BlackIntel admin/founder/PR dude (not a coder)
Please visit http://www.blackintel.org/
| V, V for Vendetta |
People should not be afraid of their governments.
Governments should be afraid of their people.
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| Re: in regard to the points fix [message #342486 is a reply to message #342437] |
Tue, 22 July 2008 13:59 |
Jellybe4n
Messages: 409
Registered: August 2004
Karma: 0
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Commander |
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| EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Tue, 22 July 2008 11:35 |
| Jellybe4n wrote on Mon, 21 July 2008 21:12 |
| EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 21 July 2008 06:20 |
| Ghostshaw wrote on Mon, 21 July 2008 11:34 |
Lets jsut allow increasing credits per points. It keeps the fairness introduced by the pointsfix (IE you get more for doing more damage) but you can get similar ot the same kinds of money flows as without the pointsfix (obviously that would be up to teh server owners).
It might need a little fine tweaking though. Like ahving separate multipliers for vehicles/infantry/buildings (getting alot more credits for shooting/repairing a building sounds like a bad plan IMO), and maybe even for groups like infantry vs vehicles, vehicles vs infantry, infantry vs infantry, vehicles vs vehicles and vehicles/infantry vs buildings.
But then again thats what a beta test is for.
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Well, indeed, but then at least certain people should listen to the idea, and be willing to try it. That seems to be most of the problem here.
Not having the will to even try something else will be impossible to fix.
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The half points fix is what we'd like to try, how about you listen to that idea and let us test that out?
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I'm not stating that it can't be tried, I'm just saying that it just doesn't fix the imbalance. For exactly that reason I suggest something else, of which I would appreciate you to give comments on.
Of course, we're already bending, as we are actively trying to find a solution that works for everyone, and at least I am trying to NOT unbalance the game.
With your idea, in al respect, you will indeed fix the point problem, but still people will get the shotgunner to attack the harv to get credits. While it is good that they try to get credits, but they could also do so with an engi, and get credits and points. With the engi they have a bigger chance of actually killing the harvester than with the shotgunner, right?
For exactly that reason I think that a half point fix is not good, as for an other example, mammoths still won't work as supposed. This still causes newb player to be shouted on, because now they are not giving away points, but credits.
So, because of the aforementions reasons, could you please tell me what you do and don't like of my previously posted ideas? As I have a feeling you're just totally ignoring them. And since you're not commenting on them, I can't bend it to suit your needs.
I'm not trying to make your life harder, but you do need to cooperate.
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Nobody is forcing you or anyone to play on the server, the players that play regular will voice whether they think it is fair or not.
OK, we like the marathon server as it is. 100%, defintly, completely. We want to keep it how it is. That is our number 1 choice.
Right, we can not do that if we want to stay on the ladder. So, what can change? You want the points fix on all servers, we want the way we gain credits to stay the same. Simple answer, do both, as has been suggested. There's no need to come up with alternatives like you have done. The answer has been suggested, that is what we want to try.
You need to quit forcing ideas that YOU think of, and let someone else's idea, which we very much like be trialed on the server.
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| Re: in regard to the points fix [message #342522 is a reply to message #338417] |
Tue, 22 July 2008 20:01 |
Rocko
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comparing the 2 versions of the game is like comparing pancakes and shit, i would not like to be forced to eat shit
if the glove doesnt fit you must equit
black and proud
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| Re: in regard to the points fix [message #342536 is a reply to message #342520] |
Tue, 22 July 2008 23:20 |
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Goztow
Messages: 9738
Registered: March 2005
Location: Belgium
Karma: 13
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Goztoe |
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| liquidv2 wrote on Wed, 23 July 2008 04:53 |
it seems to me that the TT team wants the pointmod in place everywhere to accurately test it out
they're trying to make renegade better with it, but for that server type specifically i know people like it how it is; it's the most populated server, and whatever it's doing is apparently working
putting the pointmod on it could ruin whatever it is that makes people keep coming back for more
are we working on a compromise for when the patch comes out or after the beta testing is complete?
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Ofcourse, noone actually knows if people come to that server because you can get lots of points or infantry from shooting tanks with basic infantry. Might be actually worth testing that. My guess would be that it attracts many people because there's no time limit and some people assume this provides with better games.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: in regard to the points fix [message #342568 is a reply to message #338417] |
Wed, 23 July 2008 04:57 |
Orca
Messages: 31
Registered: July 2006
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Nooo trying to look cool Surth, you know nothing about this game and you are all about hopping on the "Let's suck known people's asses" bandwagon.
Every other fix in this patch is good and it's about time most of them got fixed but the points fix just doesn't work in some cases, for example Marathon, what are you supposed to do in a situation when both teams have no Ref and you have like 20 people repairing a building getting hit by 1-2 tanks, you get like 10 credits every 5 minutes.
Of course Spoony will say something like you aren't helping your team or go rush their tanks with a flametrooper or some stupid shit like that, he can't help it he's British/gay but I still love him.
The points fix should really be an option and that will stop all the flaming and solve everyone's problem. I don't see how making it an option can be so difficult.
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| Re: in regard to the points fix [message #342603 is a reply to message #338417] |
Wed, 23 July 2008 09:17 |
=HT=T-Bird
Messages: 712
Registered: June 2005
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Why not try to kill the tanks? Beats me  especially as the credits equation looks remarkably good if you do get one (you gain about a hundred credits+pts for the kill + the other team loses the 450/800/... credits they invested). Sounds a lot better than shooting the same tank with an autorifle for that same hundred credits+pts to me...
Anyhow, we'll need to beta-test the pointsfix on a marathon server and actually see who's right and wrong. Until then, this argument is over.
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| Re: in regard to the points fix [message #342618 is a reply to message #342520] |
Wed, 23 July 2008 10:33 |
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cmatt42
Messages: 2057
Registered: July 2004
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General (2 Stars) |
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| liquidv2 wrote on Tue, 22 July 2008 21:53 |
it seems to me that the TT team wants the pointmod in place everywhere to accurately test it out
they're trying to make renegade better with it, but for that server type specifically i know people like it how it is; it's the most populated server, and whatever it's doing is apparently working
putting the pointmod on it could ruin whatever it is that makes people keep coming back for more
are we working on a compromise for when the patch comes out or after the beta testing is complete?
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Why would they test something that's already been in place for several years? I'm pretty sure they'd rather test the points fix because that's what they've been working on.
GunKataGaming.net
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| Re: in regard to the points fix [message #342629 is a reply to message #342618] |
Wed, 23 July 2008 12:56 |
Rocko
Messages: 833
Registered: January 2007
Location: Long Beach, California
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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| cmatt42 wrote on Wed, 23 July 2008 12:33 |
| liquidv2 wrote on Tue, 22 July 2008 21:53 |
it seems to me that the TT team wants the pointmod in place everywhere to accurately test it out
they're trying to make renegade better with it, but for that server type specifically i know people like it how it is; it's the most populated server, and whatever it's doing is apparently working
putting the pointmod on it could ruin whatever it is that makes people keep coming back for more
are we working on a compromise for when the patch comes out or after the beta testing is complete?
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Why would they test something that's already been in place for several years? I'm pretty sure they'd rather test the points fix because that's what they've been working on.
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if playing without the points fix has been so bad for the past few years that it needs to be changed, why didn't you quit and go back to sukin dik 24/7. obviously it isn't that big of a deal that it requires any serious change.
black and proud
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| Re: in regard to the points fix [message #342630 is a reply to message #342629] |
Wed, 23 July 2008 13:08 |
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Goztow
Messages: 9738
Registered: March 2005
Location: Belgium
Karma: 13
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General (5 Stars)
Goztoe |
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| Rocko wrote on Wed, 23 July 2008 21:56 |
Why would they test something that's already been in place for several years? I'm pretty sure they'd rather test the points fix because that's what they've been working on.
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if playing without the points fix has been so bad for the past few years that it needs to be changed, why didn't you quit and go back to sukin dik 24/7. obviously it isn't that big of a deal that it requires any serious change.[/quote]
30 days ban: you'd think your first 2 weeks ban ws enough of a warning, still you keep on insulting everyone in every topic. You had enough of my patience, tbh. Bypass this ban and it'll become a permanent one.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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