Home » Tiberian Technologies / Blackhand Studios » Tiberian Technologies Forum » in regard to the points fix
| in regard to the points fix [message #338417] |
Tue, 01 July 2008 17:29  |
i0ncl0ud9
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Registered: April 2004
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"Points Fix - fixes an error in the way points are calculated when attacking vehicles with green health. Against all other targets, points are directly proportionate to damage, but not green-health vehicles due to a coding mistake. This is why, for example, snipers could get illogically high points for attacking heavy vehicles they did very little damage to."
a coding mistake?
Was there not any testing done on this game before it came out? Yes, there was, just like there is with any other game
Do you think while the testing going on everyone testing (or the majority, because there are some pretty unobservant people), noticed what was going on regarding the point fix? Yes
Do you think westwood if they had intended it to be so, would have fixed this issue prior to releasing the game to the public? Of course.
The implementation of this points fix, which the majority of the renegade community does not promote, is just a way for a few people to get what they want... Spoony and everyone else supporting it can say whatever they want but the point fix does more bad than good. Hopefully they will do the right thing and abandon it before forcing it onto everyone. I don't think even Spoony can deny that the majority of people don't like the pointsfix, which is why he goes to his argument of Westwoods' intentions. Leave the game alone how it was obviously meant to be (the way it was released) and even if the small chance appears that westwood did intend for the points fix to be put in, Spoony should try something that sometimes can be hard for him to do. Listen. Westwood has nothing to do with this game anymore other that they made it, so why not listen to the people that really matter. The ones that play it.
for those who may have just heard about the points fix, it is pretty easy to see that the majority of the community doesn't support it. I'm not positive but I believe clanwars uses it, although reluctantly. I'm absolutely sure that Jelly, the most popular community in Renegade, doesn't support it.
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| Re: in regard to the points fix [message #338421 is a reply to message #338417] |
Tue, 01 July 2008 17:45  |
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Spoony
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I'll copypaste the reply on jelly.
| i0ncl0ud9 wrote on Tue, 01 July 2008 19:26 |
"Points Fix - fixes an error in the way points are calculated when attacking vehicles with green health. Against all other targets, points are directly proportionate to damage, but not green-health vehicles due to a coding mistake. This is why, for example, snipers could get illogically high points for attacking heavy vehicles they did very little damage to."
a coding mistake?
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yes.
| i0ncl0ud9 wrote on Tue, 01 July 2008 19:26 |
Was there not any testing done on this game before it came out? Yes, there was, just like there is with any other game
Do you think while the testing going on everyone testing (or the majority, because there are some pretty unobservant people), noticed what was going on regarding the point fix? Yes
Do you think westwood if they had intended it to be so, would have fixed this issue prior to releasing the game to the public? Of course.
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every time someone brings this up, I point out the terrible flaw, which is this:
- by your logic, backwalking the ob is intended.
- by your logic, base to base - even the most unfair example, i.e. a MRLS behind the barracks on Islands - is intended.
- by your logic, bluescreening is intended.
| i0ncl0ud9 wrote on Tue, 01 July 2008 19:26 |
Spoony and everyone else supporting it can say whatever they want but the point fix does more bad than good.
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I hear this a lot, and I always make a point of asking the person to elaborate. More often than not I get either an embarrassed silence or an insult in response. Please feel free to do better than that; Why does it do more bad than good? I can make a long, long list of the good it does. I've still yet to hear a single convincing "bad" thing it does.
| i0ncl0ud9 wrote on Tue, 01 July 2008 19:26 |
I don't think even Spoony can deny that the majority of people don't like the pointsfix, which is why he goes to his argument of Westwoods' intentions.
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I'm afraid the flaw here is the argument of Westwood's intentions was one of the several core arguments for the pointsfix before any debate on the subject even started.
| i0ncl0ud9 wrote on Tue, 01 July 2008 19:26 |
Leave the game alone how it was obviously meant to be (the way it was released)
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"how it was obviously meant to be" = pointsfix. NOT the pointsbug. you only need to play a while on a pointsfix server with an open mind to see that. Westwood weren't stupid, they wouldn't have intentionally put in a balance disaster whereby shooting something you don't damage awards your team massive points, which promotes defensive gameplay.
| i0ncl0ud9 wrote on Tue, 01 July 2008 19:26 |
and even if the small chance appears that westwood did intend for the points fix to be put in, Spoony should try something that sometimes can be hard for him to do. Listen. Westwood has nothing to do with this game anymore other that they made it, so why not listen to the people that really matter. The ones that play it.
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this is technically known as "moving the goalposts". first your argument is "westwood DIDN'T intend the pointsfix, end of story, and we need to take heed of that fact" - which is, of course, absolutely false. then it becomes "but if I'm wrong, it doesn't matter that I'm wrong because when I said we need to take heed of that fact, I didn't really mean it, it's not westwood we need to listen to after all"
| i0ncl0ud9 wrote |
I'm absolutely sure that Jelly, the most popular community in Renegade, doesn't support it.
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not at all, plenty of people either like the idea or don't mind it. It's simply the fact that the people who don't like it are usually very vocal, often going to quite extraordinary lengths. Where the rest of the debate is civilised discussion, you can always rely on a small minority to flame the living shit out of anyone who disagrees with them, lie to everyone to make their 'opponents' look bad, etc. You should see the thread in the moderator section about kong... it's pure gold.
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Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
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| Re: in regard to the points fix [message #338423 is a reply to message #338417] |
Tue, 01 July 2008 17:51 |
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nikki6ixx
Messages: 2545
Registered: August 2007
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It'd be fairest if there was a way to switch the 'fix' on or off, then everybody wins.
To be honest, I'm happy to see people's habits change in-game. Fewer idiots with ramjets shooting at tanks for the points, means more people buying PIC's/Railgun's to actually put the tanks out of commission.
Renegade:
| Aircraftkiller wrote on Fri, 10 January 2014 16:56 |
The only game where everyone competes to be an e-janitor.
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| Re: in regard to the points fix [message #338425 is a reply to message #338417] |
Tue, 01 July 2008 18:15 |
i0ncl0ud9
Messages: 74
Registered: April 2004
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I don't know how to do all this quoting stuff, so ill reply to each of your responses by separating them into different paragraphs.
If yes is the best response you have to this, then I win this argument by logic. Unless you have proof to back up what you say, it can't be considered true. It should be assumed by default that if Westwood intended anything then they would have done it themselves.
I doubt westwood knew about any of those things at the time, and if they did, probably just hoped nobody would exploit them. To say that Westwood left a coding error in the game that could have easily been fixed before its release is just stupid Spoony, come on.
Sorry, I was already writing a long post and didn't want to make it any longer than it needed to be. Here's how I explained it in my other post:
[Why is this point fix so important. Basically the only thing that will happen now is 1) people will get even more bored from lack of money, 2) people who want to use infantry will be at a huge disadvantage to get points, which I actually find more of a pointsbug than what we currently have now...
This is basically forcing people who want to get points to use tanks.]
Sorry, I didn't give you credit that you would be able to create a backup plan in advance of the community not accepting the pointsfix idea.
Thats your opinion Spoony, which for some reason you think trumps everyone else's. Your not making much sense. A balance disaster? It is the thing that balances out the game itself Spoony, not that hard to see.
Actually, I'm just trying to show that there are multiple reasons why not to put in the points fix, but call it whatever you want. Im sorry Im able to backup my reasoning better than yours.
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| Re: in regard to the points fix [message #338430 is a reply to message #338425] |
Tue, 01 July 2008 18:38 |
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cmatt42
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Registered: July 2004
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In fact, you only "backed up" your reasonings by your own opinions. I don't see how that suddenly validates your own arguments and invalidates Spoony's when he tries to present "his opinions".
People get bored with no money? Here's something they could try: defend their Refinery and make sure it doesn't get destroyed. They could also make themselves useful by attacking the enemy base. You shouldn't win by losing buildings.
Of course tanks should get more points. They do more damage against buildings than small arms and thus should get a bigger reward.
Westwood didn't fix it probably because they were broken up before they had the chance to fix it. That's why it's called a bug, and hasn't been fixed.
GunKataGaming.net
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| Re: in regard to the points fix [message #338432 is a reply to message #338423] |
Tue, 01 July 2008 19:09 |
Homey
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| nikki6ixx wrote on Tue, 01 July 2008 20:51 |
It'd be fairest if there was a way to switch the 'fix' on or off, then everybody wins.
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Exactly, then there's no need to have 10 page flame wars about it.
Homey
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| Re: in regard to the points fix [message #338433 is a reply to message #338432] |
Tue, 01 July 2008 19:11 |
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Spoony
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| i0ncl0ud9 wrote on Tue, 01 July 2008 20:54 |
If yes is the best response you have to this, then I win this argument by logic.
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I'm afraid you don't. It's already been proven that the error in the points calculation formula is exactly that - an error.
| i0ncl0ud9 wrote on Tue, 01 July 2008 20:54 |
It should be assumed by default that if Westwood intended anything then they would have done it themselves.
I doubt westwood knew about any of those things at the time, and if they did, probably just hoped nobody would exploit them.
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Oh dear... they hoped that just because there's a place inside the GDI base where the most powerful GDI long-range tank can completely safely hit the Nod base for the entire game, doesn't mean anybody would.
They hoped that just because a GDI player can walk right into the Nod base, doesn't mean anybody would.
As for bluescreening, you can't even pretend to claim Westwood hoped nobody would exploit that, since it isn't even a tactic in itself.
| i0ncl0ud9 wrote on Tue, 01 July 2008 20:54 |
Sorry, I didn't give you credit that you would be able to create a backup plan in advance of the community not accepting the pointsfix idea.
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I don't understand - could you clarify what the "backup plan" is?
| i0ncl0ud9 wrote on Tue, 01 July 2008 20:54 |
Thats your opinion Spoony, which for some reason you think trumps everyone else's.
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hmmm. that's an odd statement. I do always go to the trouble of asking people to justify their opinions. contrary to what you seem to think, that's not actually a bad thing.
| i0ncl0ud9 wrote on Tue, 01 July 2008 20:54 |
A balance disaster? It is the thing that balances out the game itself Spoony, not that hard to see.
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oh, wow. I can't believe you just said that. The game is completely fair with the pointsfix. With the pointsbug, quite a few maps are horribly one-sided. That's not even mentioning the absurdity of defensive gameplay trumping offensive gameplay, the sheer nonsense of killing the WF being a disadvantage on some maps, etc etc etc.
| i0ncl0ud9 wrote on Tue, 01 July 2008 20:54 |
Actually, I'm just trying to show that there are multiple reasons why not to put in the points fix, but call it whatever you want. Im sorry Im able to backup my reasoning better than yours.
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how indescribably ignorant of you. I'm STILL WAITING for these "multiple reasons".
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Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
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| Re: in regard to the points fix [message #338468 is a reply to message #338417] |
Tue, 01 July 2008 23:48 |
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Goztow
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Westwood probably didn't know about it, otherwise they would have fixed it. This all comes down to a coding error in an alorythm, which was discovered by Stealtheye. Maybe he should show the code so people can understand what happened.
Or do you think it's normal that without the point fix, Under is won on points by GDI only using APC's versus anything Nod can throw at them?
I don't understand how people can actually argue against the point fix: havocs getting 10 points for every shot on a tank, wtf?
Every character's points are always related to the damage they do, except for the characters that were fixed by the points fix. Strange stuff, isn't it?
If many people say that they're against it, it's probably because it's new and people like to keep things they know. I haven't heard any real argument against the point fix, really, other than "it sucks". Yes, you need to slightly change some tactics, no it doesn't change the game a lot.
I'm personally not against an option to turn it off server side, though: a server owner should be able to do whatever he wants to do.
Edit: can't read the jelly topic either.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
[Updated on: Tue, 01 July 2008 23:52] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: in regard to the points fix [message #338474 is a reply to message #338417] |
Wed, 02 July 2008 02:19 |
Jamie or NuneGa
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the fact is error or not pointfix is something which imo most ren'rs do not want.
Back walking the ob, c4 glitching are things that are just lame, but point fix is something not that many people have a problem with.
I don't see why point fix can't just stay server side and therefore be able to be turned on or off by the server owner. As far as I can see the point fix is being forced upon us.
TT team is giving us the choice between *cheat name removed*and pointfix. Which is a no brainer.
| 'Gozy wrote' |
I'm personally not against an option to turn it off server side, though: a server owner should be able to do whatever he wants to do.
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This is what I think should be done.
Jamie is a guys name in Europe...
[Updated on: Wed, 02 July 2008 02:22] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: in regard to the points fix [message #338484 is a reply to message #338417] |
Wed, 02 July 2008 04:20 |
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Goztow
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TruYuri, I think these kind of discussions DO matter: this must be a patch by and for the community. So it's not a matter of TT forcing things on people.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: in regard to the points fix [message #338486 is a reply to message #338484] |
Wed, 02 July 2008 04:31 |
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TruYuri
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| Goztow wrote on Wed, 02 July 2008 06:20 |
TruYuri, I think these kind of discussions DO matter: this must be a patch by and for the community. So it's not a matter of TT forcing things on people.
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I know that they matter, and personally I think they should (and probably will) create a switch for the points fix. I want these discussions, I want a Renegade (and any W3D projects) that is (as much as we can do) bug-free and exploit-less. I just want him and his, as I said, "poorly written, poorly executed" posts to come to a stop.
He STILL hasn't given these "reasons" that he claimed he has and Spoony has asked for.
[Updated on: Wed, 02 July 2008 04:32] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: in regard to the points fix [message #338487 is a reply to message #338484] |
Wed, 02 July 2008 04:37 |
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EvilWhiteDragon
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The announcement, which states WHY it is obviously a coding error. Unless you can prove otherwise Ion...
I would recommend reading hte long version too, if you decide to not do that, you should perhapss choose a simpler game to play, pinball perhaps?
| Crimson wrote on Mon, 27 August 2007 17:47 |
I am presenting this in two versions. The short version for those of you with ADD, and the long version for those of you who want to debate about the subject and/or know all the gory details.
SHORT VERSION
BlackIntel discovered a bug in the points calculation code while doing research for BIATCH. Fixing this bug results in a better-balanced gameplay by (most noticeably) removing the disproportionate point gains you would get from doing negligible damage to heavy-armored units.
This points fix has been running on a few servers, such as Jelly (AOW1), n00bstories, SpoonyServ, and BlackIntel for roughly 2 months. The Ladder Team is confident that this fix provides a more balanced and more fun game experience for the majority of players. We also feel that this is a crucial component to balancing the ladder calculations and will therefore be requiring the use of this fix for servers that wish to participate in the ladder.
LONG VERSION (under spoiler)
(if you wish to debate this subject, we INSIST that you become familiar with these facts and figures)
Click here to read the LONG VERSION
| StealthEye of BlackIntel (emphasis added) |
It definitely is a bug, notice how it behaves differently on health than on armor as well. (You don't get many points for shooting health with those weapons). The bug affects all damage on armor with a warhead multiplier of != 1, because it is the warhead multiplier that is missing.
Actually, it calculates points like this:
vehicledamagemultiplier * rawdamage * warheadmultiplier / warheadmultiplier
It should be:
vehicledamagemultiplier * rawdamage * warheadmultiplier
Because the warheadmultiplier is low for ramjets, and rawdamage (see the tables on http://www.blackintel.org/?page=projects/biatch/weaponinfo) is high, the effect of the missing multiplier is highest. Repair guns have a warheadmultiplier of 1, so those are not affected. C4 2 -> will do half of the points it should do. All other weapons are <1, therefore all those will give more points than they were supposed to. Because the multipliers are closer to 1 it will be less visible though.
With the bug fixed, you always get half of the points for repairing than for damaging a vehicle, and you always (regardless of the weapon you used) get the same amount for damaging or killing a vehicle (assuming it was not repaired ofcourse).
Without the bugfix, it mostly depends on the weapon you use to damage something with. More than it matters which thing you are damaging or the amount of damage you actually do.
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Spoony has made the following observations:
- Letting the WF die isn't valid anymore. On some maps - notably Field, but to a lesser extent Walls Flying and Islands, GDI could turn a losing situation into an advantage by purposely letting their Weapons Factory die. It then became an uphill struggle for Nod, to the point where Nod would still lose despite having a better team. The only reason this worked at all was the points ramjets gained against tanks, something which has always been a bug and something nobody has been able to logically justify why it should happen at all.
- The points fix means that letting certain buildings die is no longer the clear advantage it used to be, which helps balance these maps. Gaining an advantage by letting buildings die is clearly wrong, and the fact it only worked because of a bug Westwood didn't intend goes to show it's better off fixed.
- One person in a vehicle isn't teamhampering. Often, many players would dissuade their teammates from using tanks because they'd feed huge points to enemy ramjets (again, something that shouldn't happen). The points fix wipes this problem clean - one new player buying a mammoth or stank or flame tank is no longer a hindrance to their team, even if they don't achieve much with it.
- People have to use ramjets for stuff they're meant to do (light vehicles and infantry) instead of getting massive points doing something they're meant to useless for.
- More aggressive play is generally more beneficial. For example, on Field, tanks can attack enemy tanks from relative safety close to their base entrance, as opposed to moving all the way up to attack enemy buildings. Taking this higher risk is now worth relatively higher rewards.
- Spoony has noted no detrimental effects whatsoever to clan games or 1v1's.
On the following chart, "Previous points per shot" value is based on shots on the armour wth a PIC/Rave/havoc/sakura. "Current points per shot" is based on PIC/RAVE doing 80 real damage on a vehicle. For vehicles with light armour it might deal more damage and thus get more points.
Object name Damage points Previous points per shot Current points per shot
CnC_GDI_Mammoth_Tank 0.06 12 4.8
CnC_Nod_Harvester 0.04 8 3.2
CnC_GDI_Harvester 0.04 8 3.2
CnC_Nod_Apache 0.15 30 12
CnC_GDI_Orca 0.15 30 12
CnC_Nod_Stealth_Tank 0.11 22 8.8
CnC_GDI_Medium_Tank 0.05 10 4
CnC_Nod_Flame_Tank 0.05 10 4
CnC_Nod_Transport 0.09 18 7.2
CnC_GDI_Transport 0.09 18 7.2
CnC_Nod_Light_Tank 0.05 10 4
CnC_Nod_APC 0.04 8 3.2
CnC_GDI_APC 0.04 8 3.2
CnC_GDI_MRLS 0.06 12 4.8
CnC_Nod_Mobile_Artillery 0.06 12 4.8
CnC_GDI_Humm-vee 0.06 12 4.8
CnC_Nod_Buggy 0.06 12 4.8
The following chart details "Damage points" (point gain per 1 damage dealt), "Death points" (bonus for causing the final death), "Total death points" (points gained for causing damage from start to finish):
Object name Damage points Death points Total death points
CnC_GDI_Mammoth_Tank 0.06 75 147
CnC_Nod_Harvester 0.04 50 98
CnC_GDI_Harvester 0.04 50 98
CnC_Nod_Apache 0.15 45 90
CnC_GDI_Orca 0.15 45 90
CnC_Nod_Stealth_Tank 0.11 45 89
CnC_GDI_Medium_Tank 0.05 40 80
CnC_Nod_Flame_Tank 0.05 40 80
CnC_Nod_Transport 0.09 35 71
CnC_GDI_Transport 0.09 35 71
CnC_Nod_Light_Tank 0.05 30 60
CnC_Nod_APC 0.04 25 49
CnC_GDI_APC 0.04 25 49
CnC_GDI_MRLS 0.06 23 46.5
CnC_Nod_Mobile_Artillery 0.06 23 46.5
CnC_GDI_Humm-vee 0.06 18 35.5
CnC_Nod_Buggy 0.06 15 30
Some people will come back and say that you get "no points" for shooting tanks. These charts prove that is NOT the case.
Spoony has also discovered that if you look at the "Total Death Points" for vehicles and round them to the nearest multiple of 5, then compare them to the cost of the vehicle, you get this:
| Quote: |
syntax: vehicle/total points/cost
Mammoth Tank: 150/1500
Harvester: 100/not applicable
Apache/Orca: 90/900
Stealth Tank: 90/900
Medium Tank: 80/800
Flame Tank: 80/800
Chinook: 70/700
Light Tank: 60/600
APC: 50/500
MRLS: 45/450
Artillery: 45/450
Hummvee: 35/350
Buggy: 30/300
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Many people are already aware that for infantry, the total points gained for start-to-finish death is 10% of the cost of the unit. (exception: free infantry = 3 points) This also proves that the previous point calculation was definitely a bug.
What happens on a server with the fix installed?
Actual damage is not affected at all. What changes is points.
Points gained by attacking green-health vehicles are calculated the way Westwood intended them to be, the way they currently are against yellow/red health vehicles. Therefore, all weapons gain points which are directly proportional to the amount of damage they're doing.
Examples of how this will fix the game:
- Ramjets, 500 snipers, Auto rifles, shotguns and pistols will get practically nothing for attacking vehicles they don't damage (i.e. heavy armoured tanks)
- Ramjets, 500 snipers, Auto rifles, shotguns, pistols, APCs, humvees/buggies, and orca/apache machineguns get the right points for attacking light armoured vehicles - in other words, the same points a tank would get for doing the same amount of damage
- APCs, humvees/buggies, and orca/apache machineguns get the right points for attacking heavy armoured vehicles - in other words, an apache or an APC gets the same points for killing a harvester that a tank would get for killing a harvester
- C4 gets somewhat more points for attacking vehicles than they do now, roughly double.
- Tanks get somewhat less points for attacking green-health vehicles than they do now - they get what they're supposed to get, which is what they currently get against yellow/red health vehicles.
In a nutshell, it no longer matters what weapon is used to kill, for example, a harvester - the total points gain is constant whether it is destroyed by infantry C4, a tank, an APC or an Apache.
Other observations seen:
[list type=square]
[*]A team who loses the field early has a much better chance of getting it back, whereas before the team who took the field early almost always held it. Also, in most cases, the points difference is not as vast as it was before, meaning the team that got the field back has a real chance of coming back to win.
[*]Mammoths are actually worth 1500 points and people who are new to the game can buy one without hurting their team as much
[*]Failed Stealth Tank rushes don't give GDI nearly as many points as it used to. The result of this is that you aren't stuck trying these rushes all game because you are so behind on points that base destruction is your only chance to win.
[*]Closer scores overall make for more exciting and fun games rather than 30+ minutes of domination and boredom for the losing team.
New players will find that:
- If they save up for a mammoth, stank, or flamer thinking they'll devastate the enemy team single-handedly, or if they fix the Weapons Factory in the belief that keeping it alive will help the team, they don't get barraged with insults by their teammates anymore.
- They're no longer fooled by the points bug into thinking that shooting heavy tanks with an automatic rifle is helping their team's situation
Remember, POINTS, NOT DAMAGE, are the only thing affected by this fix!
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BlackIntel admin/founder/PR dude (not a coder)
Please visit http://www.blackintel.org/
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Governments should be afraid of their people.
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[Updated on: Wed, 02 July 2008 04:46] by Moderator Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: in regard to the points fix [message #338514 is a reply to message #338417] |
Wed, 02 July 2008 08:20 |
=HT=T-Bird
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Registered: June 2005
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Colonel |
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i0ncl0ud9: go play on BI1 or TK2 AOW for a few weeks. Then tell me what your opinion of the pointsfix is.
Also: C4 not getting enough points really hurts the opening of clan games. Now that this is fixed, Engi rushing the harvester on Field and Walls has taken its rightful place as an early-game staple.
Finally, what's so great about buying a Havoc/Sakura on non-Flying maps?
HTT-Bird (IRC)
HTTBird (WOL)
Proud HazTeam Lieutenant.
BlackIntel Coder & Moderator.
If you have trouble running BIATCH on your FDS, have some questions about a BIATCH message or log entry, or think that BIATCH spit out a false positive, PLEASE contact the BlackIntel coding team and avoid wasting the time of others.
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| Re: in regard to the points fix [message #338519 is a reply to message #338518] |
Wed, 02 July 2008 08:47 |
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EvilWhiteDragon
Messages: 3751
Registered: October 2005
Location: The Netherlands
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars) |
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| Baker wrote on Wed, 02 July 2008 17:39 |
What about the marathon servers? Have you ever tried joining into a game with no refinery(which is a very common thing). That's unbearable enough, but when pointsfix is on, there'll be no way to get credits in an effective way. Sure the points fix makes sense, but it makes the game so much duller. I'd rather have an extremely fun game over one that makes sense. 
This is just an opinion I don't want to get my post dismantled commented on and then flamed, because it won't change my opinion. 
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Why even bother to post in an discussion when you already state that your opinion is not going to change? That's just stupid.
Though I can see your point, there should be better and more logical ways to fix this. For example just give everyone, always twice the points (and credits) for what he/she does.
Or create a base income of (for ex.) 0.5 creds/s,even when ref is dead, that would imply 1 credit every 2 seconds, besides of what you get for doing damage.
Also, you shouldn't loose your refinery, and if you do it would be fair for it to make you loose the game. Else you can say the same thing for the WF and barracks. If those 2 are already destroyed when you get ingame you're also fucked...
Or just 1 of the 2 and you are reasonably fucked.
BlackIntel admin/founder/PR dude (not a coder)
Please visit http://www.blackintel.org/
| V, V for Vendetta |
People should not be afraid of their governments.
Governments should be afraid of their people.
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| Re: in regard to the points fix [message #338520 is a reply to message #338518] |
Wed, 02 July 2008 08:50 |
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Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
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| Baker wrote on Wed, 02 July 2008 17:39 |
What about the marathon servers? Have you ever tried joining into a game with no refinery(which is a very common thing). That's unbearable enough, but when pointsfix is on, there'll be no way to get credits in an effective way.
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I'll simply ask: You join a game halfway through, after your refinery has died, and you think the pointsfix is why you've got cashflow problems?
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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| Re: in regard to the points fix [message #338532 is a reply to message #338417] |
Wed, 02 July 2008 10:31 |
=HT=T-Bird
Messages: 712
Registered: June 2005
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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If your Ref is dead and you need credits, GET AN ENGI AND RUN AROUND, FIXING YOUR TEAM'S JUNK. Is that easier said than done? 
HTT-Bird (IRC)
HTTBird (WOL)
Proud HazTeam Lieutenant.
BlackIntel Coder & Moderator.
If you have trouble running BIATCH on your FDS, have some questions about a BIATCH message or log entry, or think that BIATCH spit out a false positive, PLEASE contact the BlackIntel coding team and avoid wasting the time of others.
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| Re: in regard to the points fix [message #338537 is a reply to message #338417] |
Wed, 02 July 2008 10:42 |
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Goztow
Messages: 9737
Registered: March 2005
Location: Belgium
Karma: 13
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General (5 Stars)
Goztoe |
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In Dutch we have an expression that, translated, would say:
"there's no man more deaf than the one that doesn't want to hear".
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: in regard to the points fix [message #338550 is a reply to message #338522] |
Wed, 02 July 2008 11:35 |
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Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
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| Baker wrote on Wed, 02 July 2008 11:35 |
In part, yes. With points fix it's much harder to get credits. But without you can get shooters and hit enemy tanks etc.
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It makes no sense whatsoever that you should get credits shooting something you do no damage to, nor was it intended to be in the game, and the fact you also get points for it clearly misbalances the game.
As for the case of not having enough money, there are two points to be made here.
Firstly, joining a game halfway through, when half your base might already be dead, is strategically stupid. If you want to do join at that time, by all means do so. But don't complain if you can't buy a tank because your WF's dead, if you can't buy advanced infantry because your barracks is dead, or if you are strapped for money because your refinery is dead.
Secondly, here are some things you can do if you don't have money:
- Get an engineer and heal your teammates. You do get some credits for this, but more importantly, you are very much helping your team.
- GDI soldier, and to a lesser extent Nod soldier. These are deceptively useful against light vehicles and infantry. Sure you'll die quite a lot, but that's a small price to pay for helping your team kill them. This won't help much if the entire attacking enemies are heavy vehicles, in which case it's very likely they'll be shelling your base, in which case you can just fix the building for money.
- Try sneaking, even with an engineer. On most maps this is at least plausible, if not easy; on other maps you can grenade buildings.
All of the above have something in common which the idea of shooting heavy tanks with a soldier does not; they all help your team, and they all make sense.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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| Re: in regard to the points fix [message #338551 is a reply to message #338417] |
Wed, 02 July 2008 11:37 |
Jellybe4n
Messages: 409
Registered: August 2004
Karma: 0
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Commander |
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As a server owner, with a community with very mixed vies on the fix, and servers where game play is very different, I'd like the option of the points fix.
I do not think this should be forced on anyone.
As I stated in a topic I made earlier, I do not want to install the patch on our marathon server if it involves the points fix being mandatory. Every other thing in the patch is excellent.
I've asked for it to be optional, to which I have had neither a yes or a no. If the answer is no, then why? Surely having run a community for over 4 years I have some idea on what's best for the people that play in our servers?
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