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| Re: question to christians about jesus [message #323309 is a reply to message #314167] |
Sat, 22 March 2008 04:21   |
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jnz
Messages: 3396
Registered: July 2006
Location: 30th century
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General (3 Stars) |
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I'm going to post some questions, just to see what answer i get. Nothing will be proved or disproved.
1) Jesus was sent down to earth to see how humans behaved, to make God be more lenient on who comes to heaven. Before this time, God would of sent everyone down to hell for petty crimes. Jesus was made in God's image, this cannot be a mental image since Jesus was supposedly a "wonderful" man. So I assume it was in physical image. If this is true, how can God exist outside of time and space? Time and space are both needed for matter to exist.
2) God has supposedly created all of us, if we don't believe in him we're going to be tortured for the rest of our lives. So why does he make it so difficult for us to believe?
3) Every living creature has been crafted by God, so how is it that 99% of them are now extinct?
4) There have been many missing links to the evolution chain. Some have been found, how can you explain a monkey that walks on 2 legs?
5) How can a loving God specifically create a human being with a disease that tortured them until they die?
6) How can a loving God send a man to hell for not being able to believe in him? after all, God was the one who made it so hard.
7) How can a loving God drown millions of humans and animals?
8 ) God created our planet, so why is there harsh conditions? Such as drought? Millions of people are facing a horrible life of famine and disease, how could such an intelligent being do that?
9) God exists outside time, so this means he can see into the future and past as he sees fit. Why didn't he just look into the future to see his son get tortured? Then he wouldn't have to send him down there in the first place.
10) How do you explain the fact that scientists have created new life in a laboratory?
11) God created each and everyone of us, so why are some people gay and lesbian? Doesn't this contradict the bible?
12) With God's infinite wisdom, why are us humans (made in his image) so stupid (in relation)?
13) happy easter.
[Updated on: Sat, 22 March 2008 04:22] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: question to christians about jesus [message #323326 is a reply to message #314167] |
Sat, 22 March 2008 06:50 |
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warranto
Messages: 2584
Registered: February 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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It does not matter if it is God or the Bible...both are the same. This is your faulty logic I have been trying to point out. Unlike other religions, in Christianity, you cannot escape with trying to seperate the Bible and God. Both are the same as the Bible is "God's Word" and the Bible is an insight into God.
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Just because you seem to lack the ability to separate the two doesn't mean it can't be done. I've done it many times.
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See, your whole useless arguments and your questions are all begging me for evidence! You keep basing your argument on the fact that I have this "evidence" and that I am obliged to provide it. My "evidence" is to have a open mind and look at other theories to our existence that explain things way better.
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Sorry, this doesn't work. We hare having a philosophical argument, meaning you have to be able to justify your claims. "Having an open mind" does not qualify as justifying anything.
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Rather than argue that, you keep asking for evidence on God (you enjoy that don't you?). The point of the whole thread is the validity of a mystical man who lived some 2000 years ago and some error-filled texts.
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Perhaps that is how it started, but then the idea of God came into the topic, so made the claim that it can not be proven whether or not God can exist, nor does proving a religion wrong prove that God does not exist. You decided to dispute this, which is where we are now.
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You simply came to a conclusion about "God" that's all. You never said anything about proof
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Go back and read what I said when this argument started. I said that God can be neither proven nor disproven.
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Looks pretty rigid to me. You seem to imply that even if religious practices/religious texts were proven false, there would always be "God."
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Read what I said again. Proving a religion wrong does not affect the existence of God. All this is "rigid" about is saying that you need to find another source to attack if you want to disprove the existence of God.
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That is the whole point of the argument you enjoy missing out. As I mentioned above, the validity of "God", the god with the capital G, is DIRECTLY tied to the error-filled texts known as the Bible. If it weren't for the Bible, "God" would not be so famous. Some other higher being to explain everything would be.
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Right from the Dictionary:
God
–noun 1. the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe.
"God" talks about a supreme being that, in some way, created the universe. It does not specify ONE type of God. Any religion can lay claim to use of the capital G.
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It is you who likes to drag the conversion to COMPLETELY useless areas of discussion.
What you have done so far is what typical Christians who defend their faith do: spin it. Let's cut to the crap shall we?
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Actually, I have done nothing to drag the conversation to useless areas of discussion. You insist on answering made-up arguments rather than the questions asked. I have done nothing to defend my faith. All I have done is say that the existence of God can not be proven or disproven, and that attacking religion and proving it wrong does not affect the idea of a God's existence.
Show me where I once defended the Catholic religion.
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| Re: question to christians about jesus [message #323334 is a reply to message #323309] |
Sat, 22 March 2008 07:23 |
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warranto
Messages: 2584
Registered: February 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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Since Starbuzz will probably make it a point to respond with some sort of claim regarding me defending Christianity, I am doing no such thing. I am just attempting to answer the questions based on my personal beliefs. They may be wrong, but it in no way is a reflection of my attempt to defend any particular religion. Heck, even an Atheist could attempt to answer these.
1) Jesus was sent down to earth to see how humans behaved, to make God be more lenient on who comes to heaven. Before this time, God would of sent everyone down to hell for petty crimes. Jesus was made in God's image, this cannot be a mental image since Jesus was supposedly a "wonderful" man. So I assume it was in physical image. If this is true, how can God exist outside of time and space? Time and space are both needed for matter to exist.
This is where the idea of the Trinity comes into play. Three separate and distinct beings, but all the same. Jesus was God, but not God. Or, rather it may be understood as "God in human form" ( a bit misleading, I know). I use that description only to explain. "God" (as God) may or may not exist outside of time and space, but Jesus did not as he was very much human. If you separate the two, but know they are the same it makes sense.
2) God has supposedly created all of us, if we don't believe in him we're going to be tortured for the rest of our lives. So why does he make it so difficult for us to believe?
The ideas of free will and human cognition. None of us as children believed what our parents said would happen if we did a particular thing, only to have them turn out right. If we can't even trust our own parents, I don't see how the idea of God would be any different.
3) Every living creature has been crafted by God, so how is it that 99% of them are now extinct?
Things die out by various means (Of course, "created by God" is ambiguous itself, so that leaves it open to interpretation as to how the creation happened). Humans are no different and could very well become extinct at some point.
4) There have been many missing links to the evolution chain. Some have been found, how can you explain a monkey that walks on 2 legs?
Evolution is real. It just depends on whether or not it had a "guiding hand" to accelerate the process.
5) How can a loving God specifically create a human being with a disease that tortured them until they die?
Genetics. Purely bad luck. The system which creates life is perfect (it does what it is supposed to do perfectly), but that does not mean that everything is finishes correctly. I don't know the genetic process well enough to go into detail, so I'll have to leave this attempt to answer as an incomplete one.
6) How can a loving God send a man to hell for not being able to believe in him? after all, God was the one who made it so hard.
It does make you wonder, though, why so many people DO believe when it is supposedly so hard. (Doesn't answer the question directly, I know. Think about it though, and perhaps you'll see what I am getting on about - and no, it is not attempting to get atheist to change their mind)
7) How can a loving God drown millions of humans and animals?
Can't answer this other than to say that I do not believe that every story in the old testament dictates specific events. Rather they are used to establish points - to what ends, I do not know. (Kind of like Aesop's fables, though in a religious context)
8 ) God created our planet, so why is there harsh conditions? Such as drought? Millions of people are facing a horrible life of famine and disease, how could such an intelligent being do that?
Again, simple chance. We live in a "perfect" world speaking in ecological terms. It has everything we could need to survive, but the weather patterns that bring us the good also bring us the bad. It would be physically (as in in the realm of physics) to have 100% good weather all of the time.
9) God exists outside time, so this means he can see into the future and past as he sees fit. Why didn't he just look into the future to see his son get tortured? Then he wouldn't have to send him down there in the first place.
This is just a personal viewpoint here (as are most of these answers, but this one in particular). God can see ALL possible futures, however the "human condition" (ambiguous term, I know) prevents the one future from being known (ie. free will). Only when a choice is made does it negate the other possible futures.
Even then, it may simply have been that it "had to happen" for us to get our acts together. A sort of self-sacrifice. Heh, another oddity here is that when we hear about self-sacrifice on the news or in movies, we cheer the hero who was willing to sacrifice himself to save humanity.
10) How do you explain the fact that scientists have created new life in a laboratory?
Don't really have to. Again, claiming that God created "all of us" does not necessarily deem that it was a direct 1-1 ratio of creation. Simply by creating the universe and allowing evolution to happen he created us. Whether life happens in the womb or in a test tube, it is still life happening.
11) God created each and everyone of us, so why are some people gay and lesbian? Doesn't this contradict the bible?
Psychological or Genetic issues (personal belief) is what may cause something like this to happen. That, in and of itself does not contradict the bible. Only the aspect of having sex with someone who is not of the opposite sex contradicts the bible.
12) With God's infinite wisdom, why are us humans (made in his image) so stupid (in relation)?
Again, image is far too ambiguous to answer this to any satisfying standard. Image has nothing to do with the simple fact of our lack of intellectual capacity. A brain can only handle so much information in proportion to its size.
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| Re: question to christians about jesus [message #323339 is a reply to message #314167] |
Sat, 22 March 2008 07:56 |
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jnz
Messages: 3396
Registered: July 2006
Location: 30th century
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars) |
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I have another, maybe a bit too far in depth.
Einstein's theory of relativity states that time relative to us, is different to everyone else. If we travel at the speed of light, we are not affected at all. If i traveled at the speed of light around the earth 1 million times, which would take a few minutes. When we get out of our space ship, we would see ourselves just leaving. This is because time around us has completely stopped. Note that everyone else would feel unaffected.
It is possible to also travel back in time. This would require us to travel faster than the speed of light, which is impossible. Einstein's theory of relativity provides an answer. If you imagine space as a bowl of water and your space ship as a grain of sand in the water. If you stir the water the grain of sand will move round with the water. Now the space ship can speed up to the speed of light, and because it's also moving with space. It's not going faster than the speed of light, but to anyone watching, you would disappear as you go back in time.
This is all true, by the way.
If you went back in time, 2008 years. What would you expect to see? A miracle maker at work?
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| Re: question to christians about jesus [message #323344 is a reply to message #314167] |
Sat, 22 March 2008 08:15 |
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warranto
Messages: 2584
Registered: February 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
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General (2 Stars) |
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I have no idea. There would be one of 3 things, though (I forget which philosopher came up with this). Interestingly enough, there is more and more evidence in support of the existence of a man named "Jesus" as the bible describes (edit: The description of the man, not necessarily the miracles attributed to him). I can't find it, but one or two of TIME magazine's articles mentioned it.
Anyway:
1) A man who thought he was God, but is not. (A crazy man)
2) A man who claimed he was God knowing he wasn't. (A con man)
3) A man who was as he claimed to be.
Either one is an equally valid claim. If he were a con man, he could easily have been a visitor from somewhere or sometime else, using technology to make these miracles happen (Think the Ori from Stargate:SG1).
Quite simply this is the purest form of belief. We do not know what actually happened, but believe it anyway.
[Updated on: Sat, 22 March 2008 08:16] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: question to christians about jesus [message #323531 is a reply to message #314167] |
Sun, 23 March 2008 16:18 |
Rocko
Messages: 833
Registered: January 2007
Location: Long Beach, California
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warranto how can you place so much faith in a magic man that existed 2 thousand years ago in the age of ignorance.
sure god can possibly exist, but how do you know he exists as you see him?
having faith in just anything is silly to me
black and proud
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| Re: question to christians about jesus [message #323541 is a reply to message #323540] |
Sun, 23 March 2008 16:40 |
Rocko
Messages: 833
Registered: January 2007
Location: Long Beach, California
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| Originally Blue wrote on Mon, 24 March 2008 00:37 |
| Rocko wrote on Sun, 23 March 2008 18:18 |
warranto how can you place so much faith in a magic man that existed 2 thousand years ago in the age of ignorance.
sure god can possibly exist, but how do you know he exists as you see him?
having faith in just anything is silly to me
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So, he MUST be fake since his story is old?
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the mayans or aztecs, i forget which, believed that a man came to them who was god many years ago.
why is that man not your god?
People have been fooled in to believing in crazy religions and illogical beliefs for a long time, and even more back then.
black and proud
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| Re: question to christians about jesus [message #323542 is a reply to message #323541] |
Sun, 23 March 2008 16:45 |
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BlueThen
Messages: 2402
Registered: February 2006
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General (2 Stars) |
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| Rocko wrote on Sun, 23 March 2008 18:40 |
| Originally Blue wrote on Mon, 24 March 2008 00:37 |
| Rocko wrote on Sun, 23 March 2008 18:18 |
warranto how can you place so much faith in a magic man that existed 2 thousand years ago in the age of ignorance.
sure god can possibly exist, but how do you know he exists as you see him?
having faith in just anything is silly to me
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So, he MUST be fake since his story is old?
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the mayans or aztecs, i forget which, believed that a man came to them who was god many years ago.
why is that man not your god?
People have been fooled in to believing in crazy religions and illogical beliefs for a long time, and even more back then.
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Well, you can't expect us to believe EVERYTHING from back then. Christianity is just the most passed on and believable to me.
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