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| Re: question to christians about jesus [message #316791 is a reply to message #316781] |
Tue, 12 February 2008 18:42   |
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IronWarrior
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| warranto wrote on Tue, 12 February 2008 18:05 |
Sorry, but that is faulty logic.
Suicide by cop is NOT simply knowing the police will kill you, and allowing it to happen. This is where you deliberately take actions in which you know the police will respond by killing you.
The suicide part comes in because of the ACTION you take, not in "waiting around to let it happen", because there is no waiting, there is a forced response by the individual to the police.
With what Jesus did (and anyone else who simply waits around and wait for the inevitable to happen) is not suicide, but rather allowing himself to be sacrificed for a greater cause (whether people believe in the cause or not, this is what it was done for).
Socrates did the same thing. He preached against the state, the state captured him and sentenced him to death. He accepted that sentence without attempting to escape (and according to Plato, he was given the chance to escape but chose to stay behind and face his captors).
I don't know ANYONE who said that Socrates committed suicide by doing that.
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You are wrong, using fancy words as "he sacrificed for a greater cause" is just a xtains way of blinding the pure fact of allowing himself to be killed. therefore suicide.
If you know what is gonna happen to you, then that is a level of suicide as you take your own life in your hands knowing the full facts of what you are doing and what is gonna happen to you.
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| Re: question to christians about jesus [message #316823 is a reply to message #314167] |
Tue, 12 February 2008 22:08 |
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warranto
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Sorry, it's not "fancy words".
Actually, by your definition, you are committing suicide right now. You know you will eventually dying and you are just sitting around waiting for it to happen. In fact, everyone in the world is doing just that.
Knowing you are going to die, but not taking means to prevent it IS NOT suicide.
Taking actions that ensure your death, IS suicide.
It is the ACTION that determines the suicide status. Suicide by cop is just that. Taking an action you know will result in your death.
Inaction, such as waiting around to die, has no basis in suicide. I highly doubt prisoners on death row are being "suicidal" by sitting around in a cell knowing they are going to die.
The "dying for a cause" is just circumstantial (ie. particular to their circumstance). Debating that is not important, which is probably why you are concentrating on it. Whether or not the person is delusional is not important. The action/inaction of ensuring the death is what is important.
I surly hope you don't have a personal directive (living will) asking that the plug be pulled in a particular circumstance or a do-not-resuscitate order. Because, by your very own definition, those people are committing suicide.
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| Re: question to christians about jesus [message #316865 is a reply to message #316823] |
Wed, 13 February 2008 05:49 |
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IronWarrior
Messages: 2460
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| warranto wrote on Tue, 12 February 2008 23:08 |
Sorry, it's not "fancy words".
Actually, by your definition, you are committing suicide right now. You know you will eventually dying and you are just sitting around waiting for it to happen. In fact, everyone in the world is doing just that.
Knowing you are going to die, but not taking means to prevent it IS NOT suicide.
Taking actions that your death, IS suicide.
It is the ACTION that determines the suicide status. Suicide by cop is just that. Taking an action you know will result in your death.
Inaction, such as waiting around to die, has no basis in suicide. I highly doubt prisoners on death row are being "suicidal" by sitting around in a cell knowing they are going to die.
The "dying for a cause" is just circumst
antial (ie. particular to their circumstance). Debating that is not important, which is probably why you are concentrating on it. Whether or not the person is delusional is not important. The action/inaction of ensuring the death is what is important.
I surly hope you don't have a personal directive (living will) asking that the plug be pulled in a particular circumstance or a do-not-resuscitate order. Because, by your very own definition, those people are committing suicide.
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As Jesus know he was gonna be killed the next day, he took no action to stop it, therefore in your own words, he ensured his death.
It's true, everyone is dying right now as we grow older, but as we don't know when we are going to die, could be tomorrow could be 100 years later, this is not in the same group as suicide.
I wouldn't say prisoners are on a level of suicide, I prefer to call it homicide with premeditation by the state.  but I do think they should make a greater effort in prolonging their death, the whole idea of going willing to it, is just wrong.
[Updated on: Wed, 13 February 2008 05:55] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: question to christians about jesus [message #316883 is a reply to message #314167] |
Wed, 13 February 2008 08:27 |
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warranto
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Once again, inaction is not the same as action.
Not preventing something is not the same as taking action to ensure an event. Despite what the president of the US said, the only two options are not being either for something, or if not for something automatically against something.
Allowing an event to take place (whatever the circumstances) is not the same thing as doing the event yourself.
Since you keep relaying this back to Jesus, he was the same thing as the death row prisoner and Socrates. Both simply sat around waiting for the state to kill them. You, yourself said that isn't suicide. That's all that happened with Jesus. He was captured, put on a "trial" and sentenced to death.
Actually, like your prisoner analogy, his death was intentionally prolonged by the state, and only hastened when those guarding him took pity and stabbed him.
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| Re: question to christians about jesus [message #316887 is a reply to message #316883] |
Wed, 13 February 2008 09:04 |
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IronWarrior
Messages: 2460
Registered: November 2004
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| warranto wrote on Wed, 13 February 2008 09:27 |
Once again, inaction is not the same as action.
Not preventing something is not the same as taking action to ensure an event. Despite what the president of the US said, the only two options are not being either for something, or if not for something automatically against something.
Allowing an event to take place (whatever the circumstances) is not the same thing as doing the event yourself.
Since you keep relaying this back to Jesus, he was the same thing as the death row prisoner and Socrates. Both simply sat around waiting for the state to kill them. You, yourself said that isn't suicide. That's all that happened with Jesus. He was captured, put on a "trial" and sentenced to death.
Actually, like your prisoner analogy, his death was intentionally prolonged by the state, and only hastened when those guarding him took pity and stabbed him.
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An inaction is the same as a action, don't see how you can't see that, if you ask any military tacticition, he would explain that an inaction is a action in itself.
Jesus and Socrates are different, as one know he was gonna die and one didn't, though the later might had known, but Jesus know he had to die for "our" sins, so know 100% without douth.
Socrates communitted a pure act of suicide as he drank the poison to kill himself.
Jesus didn't, Jesus own actions in letting himself get caught when he could had got away, was suicide in nature and infact, it was a early act of the modern problem known as suicide by cop, explained eailer.
Jesus know that the Romans was coming for him in the morning, he know what was they would do to him, he know he was gonna die, he let it all happen, he died for our sins, but he committed a sin himself, I can even dare say that Jesus is on the same terms as a modern day islamtic suicide bomber, both know they are gonna die, both died for a "greater good" and both took no action to stop it.
You can't not defeat my pure hard cold logic with anything you say.
Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated, we are the Borg.
[Updated on: Wed, 13 February 2008 09:11] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: question to christians about jesus [message #316929 is a reply to message #316887] |
Wed, 13 February 2008 12:45 |
bisen11
Messages: 797
Registered: December 2004
Karma: 0
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| IronWarrior wrote on Wed, 13 February 2008 11:04 |
| warranto wrote on Wed, 13 February 2008 09:27 |
Once again, inaction is not the same as action.
Not preventing something is not the same as taking action to ensure an event. Despite what the president of the US said, the only two options are not being either for something, or if not for something automatically against something.
Allowing an event to take place (whatever the circumstances) is not the same thing as doing the event yourself.
Since you keep relaying this back to Jesus, he was the same thing as the death row prisoner and Socrates. Both simply sat around waiting for the state to kill them. You, yourself said that isn't suicide. That's all that happened with Jesus. He was captured, put on a "trial" and sentenced to death.
Actually, like your prisoner analogy, his death was intentionally prolonged by the state, and only hastened when those guarding him took pity and stabbed him.
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An inaction is the same as a action, don't see how you can't see that, if you ask any military tacticition, he would explain that an inaction is a action in itself.
Jesus and Socrates are different, as one know he was gonna die and one didn't, though the later might had known, but Jesus know he had to die for "our" sins, so know 100% without douth.
Socrates communitted a pure act of suicide as he drank the poison to kill himself.
Jesus didn't, Jesus own actions in letting himself get caught when he could had got away, was suicide in nature and infact, it was a early act of the modern problem known as suicide by cop, explained eailer.
Jesus know that the Romans was coming for him in the morning, he know what was they would do to him, he know he was gonna die, he let it all happen, he died for our sins, but he committed a sin himself, I can even dare say that Jesus is on the same terms as a modern day islamtic suicide bomber, both know they are gonna die, both died for a "greater good" and both took no action to stop it.
You can't not defeat my pure hard cold logic with anything you say.
Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated, we are the Borg.
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How can you say there is no such thing as god and then say that he knew they were coming for him that morning. No one gave him that information, in fact he was the one who told his disciples that one of them would betray him. An islamic suiced bomber is a brain washed idiot. Jesus was a genuis. Great Philosophers tried to trick him many times and failed. Jesus did not kill anyone through his death but rather "washed away the sins of the earth".
Q pwns the borg.
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| Re: question to christians about jesus [message #316931 is a reply to message #316887] |
Wed, 13 February 2008 12:48 |
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warranto
Messages: 2584
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| IronWarrior wrote on Wed, 13 February 2008 09:04 |
| warranto wrote on Wed, 13 February 2008 09:27 |
Once again, inaction is not the same as action.
Not preventing something is not the same as taking action to ensure an event. Despite what the president of the US said, the only two options are not being either for something, or if not for something automatically against something.
Allowing an event to take place (whatever the circumstances) is not the same thing as doing the event yourself.
Since you keep relaying this back to Jesus, he was the same thing as the death row prisoner and Socrates. Both simply sat around waiting for the state to kill them. You, yourself said that isn't suicide. That's all that happened with Jesus. He was captured, put on a "trial" and sentenced to death.
Actually, like your prisoner analogy, his death was intentionally prolonged by the state, and only hastened when those guarding him took pity and stabbed him.
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An inaction is the same as a action, don't see how you can't see that, if you ask any military tacticition, he would explain that an inaction is a action in itself.
Jesus and Socrates are different, as one know he was gonna die and one didn't, though the later might had known, but Jesus know he had to die for "our" sins, so know 100% without douth.
Socrates communitted a pure act of suicide as he drank the poison to kill himself.
Jesus didn't, Jesus own actions in letting himself get caught when he could had got away, was suicide in nature and infact, it was a early act of the modern problem known as suicide by cop, explained eailer.
Jesus know that the Romans was coming for him in the morning, he know what was they would do to him, he know he was gonna die, he let it all happen, he died for our sins, but he committed a sin himself, I can even dare say that Jesus is on the same terms as a modern day islamtic suicide bomber, both know they are gonna die, both died for a "greater good" and both took no action to stop it.
You can't not defeat my pure hard cold logic with anything you say.
Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated, we are the Borg.
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When you start demonstrating that cold hard logic, perhaps you will be right.
An inaction is NOT an action, I don't see how you can't see that. They may both result in an act, but they are not the same thing. Its not really that hard to grasp.
The act of drinking the poison was suicide, perhaps - a state enforced action, but an ACTION nonetheless. The idea of him waiting around for it to happen, and not take the means of escape available to him are not an act of suicide, regardless of the knowledge of the outcome or not.
As for the comparision to the "modern-day suicide bomber", I have to outright laugh at you.
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both know they are gonna die
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right
| Quote: |
both died for a "greater good"
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right
| Quote: |
both took no action to stop it.
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Wrong. And this is where that "cold hard logic" of yours is perhaps flawed the most. the suicide bombers TAKES ACTION to ensure his death. He travels to the destination and detonates the bomb. He does not simply sit around waiting for the destination to come to him, and the explosion to happen on its own.
If that is what you qualify as "cold hard logic", then no wonder you have no grasp of what is being said here.
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| Re: question to christians about jesus [message #316936 is a reply to message #316931] |
Wed, 13 February 2008 13:07 |
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IronWarrior
Messages: 2460
Registered: November 2004
Location: England UK
Karma: 0
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| warranto wrote on Wed, 13 February 2008 13:48 |
| IronWarrior wrote on Wed, 13 February 2008 09:04 |
| warranto wrote on Wed, 13 February 2008 09:27 |
Once again, inaction is not the same as action.
Not preventing something is not the same as taking action to ensure an event. Despite what the president of the US said, the only two options are not being either for something, or if not for something automatically against something.
Allowing an event to take place (whatever the circumstances) is not the same thing as doing the event yourself.
Since you keep relaying this back to Jesus, he was the same thing as the death row prisoner and Socrates. Both simply sat around waiting for the state to kill them. You, yourself said that isn't suicide. That's all that happened with Jesus. He was captured, put on a "trial" and sentenced to death.
Actually, like your prisoner analogy, his death was intentionally prolonged by the state, and only hastened when those guarding him took pity and stabbed him.
|
An inaction is the same as a action, don't see how you can't see that, if you ask any military tacticition, he would explain that an inaction is a action in itself.
Jesus and Socrates are different, as one know he was gonna die and one didn't, though the later might had known, but Jesus know he had to die for "our" sins, so know 100% without douth.
Socrates communitted a pure act of suicide as he drank the poison to kill himself.
Jesus didn't, Jesus own actions in letting himself get caught when he could had got away, was suicide in nature and infact, it was a early act of the modern problem known as suicide by cop, explained eailer.
Jesus know that the Romans was coming for him in the morning, he know what was they would do to him, he know he was gonna die, he let it all happen, he died for our sins, but he committed a sin himself, I can even dare say that Jesus is on the same terms as a modern day islamtic suicide bomber, both know they are gonna die, both died for a "greater good" and both took no action to stop it.
You can't not defeat my pure hard cold logic with anything you say.
Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated, we are the Borg.
|
When you start demonstrating that cold hard logic, perhaps you will be right.
An inaction is NOT an action, I don't see how you can't see that. They may both result in an act, but they are not the same thing. Its not really that hard to grasp.
The act of drinking the poison was suicide, perhaps - a state enforced action, but an ACTION nonetheless. The idea of him waiting around for it to happen, and not take the means of escape available to him are not an act of suicide, regardless of the knowledge of the outcome or not.
As for the comparision to the "modern-day suicide bomber", I have to outright laugh at you.
| Quote: |
both know they are gonna die
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right
| Quote: |
both died for a "greater good"
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right
| Quote: |
both took no action to stop it.
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Wrong. And this is where that "cold hard logic" of yours is perhaps flawed the most. the suicide bombers TAKES ACTION to ensure his death. He travels to the destination and detonates the bomb. He does not simply sit around waiting for the destination to come to him, and the explosion to happen on its own.
If that is what you qualify as "cold hard logic", then no wonder you have no grasp of what is being said here.
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An inaction is a action, as you took no other action then do nothing.
[Updated on: Wed, 13 February 2008 13:59] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: question to christians about jesus [message #316991 is a reply to message #316936] |
Wed, 13 February 2008 17:46 |
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Dover
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Registered: March 2006
Location: Monterey, California
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| IronWarrior wrote on Wed, 13 February 2008 12:07 |
An inaction is a action, as you took no other action then do nothing.
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You're talking sillly.
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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| Re: question to christians about jesus [message #316997 is a reply to message #316991] |
Wed, 13 February 2008 18:24 |
Rocko
Messages: 833
Registered: January 2007
Location: Long Beach, California
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| Dover wrote on Wed, 13 February 2008 18:46 |
| IronWarrior wrote on Wed, 13 February 2008 12:07 |
An inaction is a action, as you took no other action then do nothing.
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You're talking sillly.
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not as silly as religion itself looooooooooool!!!!!!!!!!
black and proud
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| Re: question to christians about jesus [message #317011 is a reply to message #316936] |
Wed, 13 February 2008 19:58 |
bisen11
Messages: 797
Registered: December 2004
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| IronWarrior wrote on Wed, 13 February 2008 15:07 |
| warranto wrote on Wed, 13 February 2008 13:48 |
| IronWarrior wrote on Wed, 13 February 2008 09:04 |
| warranto wrote on Wed, 13 February 2008 09:27 |
Once again, inaction is not the same as action.
Not preventing something is not the same as taking action to ensure an event. Despite what the president of the US said, the only two options are not being either for something, or if not for something automatically against something.
Allowing an event to take place (whatever the circumstances) is not the same thing as doing the event yourself.
Since you keep relaying this back to Jesus, he was the same thing as the death row prisoner and Socrates. Both simply sat around waiting for the state to kill them. You, yourself said that isn't suicide. That's all that happened with Jesus. He was captured, put on a "trial" and sentenced to death.
Actually, like your prisoner analogy, his death was intentionally prolonged by the state, and only hastened when those guarding him took pity and stabbed him.
|
An inaction is the same as a action, don't see how you can't see that, if you ask any military tacticition, he would explain that an inaction is a action in itself.
Jesus and Socrates are different, as one know he was gonna die and one didn't, though the later might had known, but Jesus know he had to die for "our" sins, so know 100% without douth.
Socrates communitted a pure act of suicide as he drank the poison to kill himself.
Jesus didn't, Jesus own actions in letting himself get caught when he could had got away, was suicide in nature and infact, it was a early act of the modern problem known as suicide by cop, explained eailer.
Jesus know that the Romans was coming for him in the morning, he know what was they would do to him, he know he was gonna die, he let it all happen, he died for our sins, but he committed a sin himself, I can even dare say that Jesus is on the same terms as a modern day islamtic suicide bomber, both know they are gonna die, both died for a "greater good" and both took no action to stop it.
You can't not defeat my pure hard cold logic with anything you say.
Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated, we are the Borg.
|
When you start demonstrating that cold hard logic, perhaps you will be right.
An inaction is NOT an action, I don't see how you can't see that. They may both result in an act, but they are not the same thing. Its not really that hard to grasp.
The act of drinking the poison was suicide, perhaps - a state enforced action, but an ACTION nonetheless. The idea of him waiting around for it to happen, and not take the means of escape available to him are not an act of suicide, regardless of the knowledge of the outcome or not.
As for the comparision to the "modern-day suicide bomber", I have to outright laugh at you.
| Quote: |
both know they are gonna die
|
right
| Quote: |
both died for a "greater good"
|
right
| Quote: |
both took no action to stop it.
|
Wrong. And this is where that "cold hard logic" of yours is perhaps flawed the most. the suicide bombers TAKES ACTION to ensure his death. He travels to the destination and detonates the bomb. He does not simply sit around waiting for the destination to come to him, and the explosion to happen on its own.
If that is what you qualify as "cold hard logic", then no wonder you have no grasp of what is being said here.
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An inaction is a action, as you took no other action then do nothing.
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0 = 1 ?
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| Re: question to christians about jesus [message #317013 is a reply to message #316997] |
Wed, 13 February 2008 20:04 |
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Dover
Messages: 2547
Registered: March 2006
Location: Monterey, California
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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| Rocko wrote on Wed, 13 February 2008 17:24 |
| Dover wrote on Wed, 13 February 2008 18:46 |
| IronWarrior wrote on Wed, 13 February 2008 12:07 |
An inaction is a action, as you took no other action then do nothing.
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You're talking sillly.
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not as silly as religion itself looooooooooool!!!!!!!!!!
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Almost as silly. It's up there.
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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| Re: question to christians about jesus [message #317220 is a reply to message #317184] |
Fri, 15 February 2008 06:50 |
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Starbuzz
Messages: 2500
Registered: May 2007
Karma: 2
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| bisen11 wrote on Thu, 14 February 2008 22:30 |
Many scientists believe in a higher power.
"Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian Spring" I think this quote fits some of you pretty well...
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Oh I am so scared now...
An ambiguous statement that ignores what religion is at the core is surely a good point to make. 
[Updated on: Fri, 15 February 2008 06:50] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: question to christians about jesus [message #320458 is a reply to message #320369] |
Tue, 04 March 2008 17:59 |
Rocko
Messages: 833
Registered: January 2007
Location: Long Beach, California
Karma: 0
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| Originally Blue wrote on Tue, 04 March 2008 14:02 |
Ok, which is more logical:
Universe is a explosion
Universe is a creation
Maybe the universe is a explosion created by God.
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k even if it is logical to that God exists, that in no way proves that Christianity or any other religion is true, which is the main point i ever have in these discussions. It all comes down to faith, but that's garbage as one can have faith in anything.
perhaps i am jesus II.
black and proud
[Updated on: Tue, 04 March 2008 17:59] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: question to christians about jesus [message #320464 is a reply to message #320458] |
Tue, 04 March 2008 19:01 |
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nikki6ixx
Messages: 2545
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General (2 Stars) |
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| Rocko wrote on Tue, 04 March 2008 18:59 |
perhaps i am jesus II.
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You have some stiff competition there, especially from the hobo on my way to work who bites people.
Renegade:
| Aircraftkiller wrote on Fri, 10 January 2014 16:56 |
The only game where everyone competes to be an e-janitor.
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| Re: question to christians about jesus [message #320467 is a reply to message #320458] |
Tue, 04 March 2008 19:40 |
Muad Dib15
Messages: 839
Registered: July 2007
Location: behind a computer screen,...
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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| Rocko wrote on Tue, 04 March 2008 18:59 |
| Originally Blue wrote on Tue, 04 March 2008 14:02 |
Ok, which is more logical:
Universe is a explosion
Universe is a creation
Maybe the universe is a explosion created by God.
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k even if it is logical to that God exists, that in no way proves that Christianity or any other religion is true, which is the main point i ever have in these discussions. It all comes down to faith, but that's garbage as one can have faith in anything.
perhaps i am jesus II.
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First thing I've ever seen you post that didn't make shake my head and say. "OMG another Rocko post."
But their isn't proof that God doesn't exist. Nor is their proof that he does exist. It is just a question of faith.
The manliest post on the internet
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