Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » If a tree falls in the forest...
| If a tree falls in the forest... [message #288357] |
Thu, 04 October 2007 18:36  |
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R315r4z0r
Messages: 3836
Registered: March 2005
Location: New York
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General (3 Stars) |
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If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is around to hear it... does it make a sound?
I been having a pretty heated discussion about this on another forum. The person I am arguing says that it has to make sound waves, so it has to make sound.
But my opinion is that just because there are sound waves doesn't mean there is a sound. A sound wave is how a sound travels, the sound is made when someone is there to receive the sound. So with nothing there to receive the sound, I say it doesn't make a sound.
But what do you guys think?
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| Re: If a tree falls in the forest... [message #288360 is a reply to message #288357] |
Thu, 04 October 2007 18:51  |
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NukeIt15
Messages: 987
Registered: February 2003
Location: Out to lunch
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Colonel |
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Just because no person is around does not mean that a sound is not heard. Unless the tree falls also in a forest that lacks any form of animal life, the sound is still heard by something.
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived of the use of them." - Thomas Paine
Remember, kids: illiteracy is cool. If you took the time to read this, you are clearly a loser who will never get laid. You've been warned.
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| Re: If a tree falls in the forest... [message #288386 is a reply to message #288373] |
Thu, 04 October 2007 19:39 |
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BlueThen
Messages: 2402
Registered: February 2006
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General (2 Stars) |
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| Renerage wrote on Thu, 04 October 2007 21:21 |
Put up something that is a non-animate object.
Like a microphone.
Let the tree fall, while your 20394803924 miles away,
Go back a few weeks later, make sure your not anywhere near it,
Re-listen to the recording-
ZOMGS, IT MADE A SOUND!!!!
HIERACY!
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You'd be listening to a duplicate of the sound, but not the sound itself.
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It still makes a sound, but no one can hear it.
There, topic over.
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Did you read my first post in the topic?
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| Re: If a tree falls in the forest... [message #288389 is a reply to message #288386] |
Thu, 04 October 2007 19:56 |
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cheesesoda
Messages: 6507
Registered: March 2003
Location: Jackson, Michigan
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General (5 Stars) |
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| BlueThen wrote on Thu, 04 October 2007 22:39 |
You'd be listening to a duplicate of the sound, but not the sound itself.
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If it's a duplication, isn't that proof that an original exists?
If I make a copy of an image, the duplication is proof that an original existed. You can't duplicate something if it never existed.
If you create a new MP3, it's not a duplication. It's the original MP3 that you created. If someone else has a COPY (or 'duplication') of your MP3, then it proves there was an original, else it wouldn't exist.
The question isn't whether someone HEARS the sound that it makes, but DOES it make a sound? If we have a duplication, then deductive reasoning proves that it does, indeed, make a sound.
whoa.
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| Re: If a tree falls in the forest... [message #288394 is a reply to message #288389] |
Thu, 04 October 2007 20:01 |
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Renerage
Messages: 1223
Registered: May 2005
Location: Hamilton ON, Canada
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General (1 Star) |
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| cheesesoda wrote on Thu, 04 October 2007 22:56 |
| BlueThen wrote on Thu, 04 October 2007 22:39 |
You'd be listening to a duplicate of the sound, but not the sound itself.
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If it's a duplication, isn't that proof that an original exists?
If I make a copy of an image, the duplication is proof that an original existed. You can't duplicate something if it never existed.
If you create a new MP3, it's not a duplication. It's the original MP3 that you created. If someone else has a COPY (or 'duplication') of your MP3, then it proves there was an original, else it wouldn't exist.
The question isn't whether someone HEARS the sound that it makes, but DOES it make a sound? If we have a duplication, then deductive reasoning proves that it does, indeed, make a sound.
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Not by bluethen's logic.
How about this one smarty pants-
If you have a DEAF guy in the room, and you scream in his face.
Do you still make a sound?
A pissed off noob Once said:
I DESLIKE YOU!
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| Re: If a tree falls in the forest... [message #288397 is a reply to message #288394] |
Thu, 04 October 2007 20:05 |
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cheesesoda
Messages: 6507
Registered: March 2003
Location: Jackson, Michigan
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars) |
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| Renerage wrote on Thu, 04 October 2007 23:01 |
| cheesesoda wrote on Thu, 04 October 2007 22:56 |
| BlueThen wrote on Thu, 04 October 2007 22:39 |
You'd be listening to a duplicate of the sound, but not the sound itself.
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If it's a duplication, isn't that proof that an original exists?
If I make a copy of an image, the duplication is proof that an original existed. You can't duplicate something if it never existed.
If you create a new MP3, it's not a duplication. It's the original MP3 that you created. If someone else has a COPY (or 'duplication') of your MP3, then it proves there was an original, else it wouldn't exist.
The question isn't whether someone HEARS the sound that it makes, but DOES it make a sound? If we have a duplication, then deductive reasoning proves that it does, indeed, make a sound.
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Not by bluethen's logic.
How about this one smarty pants-
If you have a DEAF guy in the room, and you scream in his face.
Do you still make a sound?
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Pfft, even by his logic I win.
The "organs of hearing" can be what receives the soundwaves on the recorder.
As for your question... yes, it makes a sound. Just because the brain doesn't receive any signals from the ears doesn't mean that the ears aren't receiving the sound.
whoa.
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| Re: If a tree falls in the forest... [message #288402 is a reply to message #288397] |
Thu, 04 October 2007 20:09 |
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BlueThen
Messages: 2402
Registered: February 2006
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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| cheesesoda wrote on Thu, 04 October 2007 22:05 |
| Renerage wrote on Thu, 04 October 2007 23:01 |
| cheesesoda wrote on Thu, 04 October 2007 22:56 |
| BlueThen wrote on Thu, 04 October 2007 22:39 |
You'd be listening to a duplicate of the sound, but not the sound itself.
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If it's a duplication, isn't that proof that an original exists?
If I make a copy of an image, the duplication is proof that an original existed. You can't duplicate something if it never existed.
If you create a new MP3, it's not a duplication. It's the original MP3 that you created. If someone else has a COPY (or 'duplication') of your MP3, then it proves there was an original, else it wouldn't exist.
The question isn't whether someone HEARS the sound that it makes, but DOES it make a sound? If we have a duplication, then deductive reasoning proves that it does, indeed, make a sound.
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Not by bluethen's logic.
How about this one smarty pants-
If you have a DEAF guy in the room, and you scream in his face.
Do you still make a sound?
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Pfft, even by his logic I win.
The "organs of hearing" can be what receives the soundwaves on the recorder.
As for your question... yes, it makes a sound. Just because the brain doesn't receive any signals from the ears doesn't mean that the ears aren't receiving the sound.
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But you are not listening to the tree itself. You are listening to the recorder.
An addition to that, you just messed up the whole question, the question was:
If a tree falls in a forest, and no one hears it, does it make a sound?
You basically ignored the part of "no one hears it" by saying that you record it and hear it later.
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| Re: If a tree falls in the forest... [message #288404 is a reply to message #288402] |
Thu, 04 October 2007 20:16 |
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cheesesoda
Messages: 6507
Registered: March 2003
Location: Jackson, Michigan
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars) |
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| BlueThen wrote on Thu, 04 October 2007 23:09 |
| cheesesoda wrote on Thu, 04 October 2007 22:05 |
| Renerage wrote on Thu, 04 October 2007 23:01 |
| cheesesoda wrote on Thu, 04 October 2007 22:56 |
| BlueThen wrote on Thu, 04 October 2007 22:39 |
You'd be listening to a duplicate of the sound, but not the sound itself.
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If it's a duplication, isn't that proof that an original exists?
If I make a copy of an image, the duplication is proof that an original existed. You can't duplicate something if it never existed.
If you create a new MP3, it's not a duplication. It's the original MP3 that you created. If someone else has a COPY (or 'duplication') of your MP3, then it proves there was an original, else it wouldn't exist.
The question isn't whether someone HEARS the sound that it makes, but DOES it make a sound? If we have a duplication, then deductive reasoning proves that it does, indeed, make a sound.
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Not by bluethen's logic.
How about this one smarty pants-
If you have a DEAF guy in the room, and you scream in his face.
Do you still make a sound?
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Pfft, even by his logic I win.
The "organs of hearing" can be what receives the soundwaves on the recorder.
As for your question... yes, it makes a sound. Just because the brain doesn't receive any signals from the ears doesn't mean that the ears aren't receiving the sound.
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But you are not listening to the tree itself. You are listening to the recorder.
An addition to that, you just messed up the whole question, the question was:
If a tree falls in a forest, and no one hears it, does it make a sound?
You basically ignored the part of "no one hears it" by saying that you record it and hear it later.
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I'm sorry, but it's stupid to think that sound is defined correctly as that first definition you gave. Sound is energy, whether or not it's received by hearing organs.
As the MythBusters proved, sound CAN break glass. Glass does not have any organs, especially organs for hearing. Yet, if everybody left the building, the glass would still be broken because of the energy given off by the speakers. That energy is sound.
whoa.
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| Re: If a tree falls in the forest... [message #288405 is a reply to message #288404] |
Thu, 04 October 2007 20:20 |
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BlueThen
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General (2 Stars) |
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Off topic a bit but...
Sound creates waves, and that's because the molecules bounce off of each other. If they are bouncing off of each other and rubbing in on each other as they go along... wouldn't sound create heat? 
and heat can be turned into electricity... thus, if we have some loudmouths like trooprm02, then we could power a lightbulb!
[Updated on: Thu, 04 October 2007 20:21] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: If a tree falls in the forest... [message #288408 is a reply to message #288405] |
Thu, 04 October 2007 20:39 |
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R315r4z0r
Messages: 3836
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Location: New York
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General (3 Stars) |
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I agree with a lot of things here, but something that most of you aren't realizing...
A sound wave itself is how a sound travels from one point to another.
However, if nothing hears the sound, there IS no sound. Your not thinking outside of the box here. Your all to busy thinking of what a tree would in fact sound like if it fell. But the thing is, you wouldn't be hearing any tree fall because you nor anything else is there to hear it.
So therefore, the sound wave is going out so far that it dissipates before anyone can hear it, and thus there is no sound to be heard!
Just because the sound wave is there doesn't mean that is going to make a sound. It all depends on if something is there to hear it or not.
Think of it this way: A sound can't exist if it cannot be heard.
For example, say your def. To you, sound doesn't exist. It may be all around, but specifically to you, sound doesn't exist.
[Updated on: Thu, 04 October 2007 20:41] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: If a tree falls in the forest... [message #288415 is a reply to message #288357] |
Thu, 04 October 2007 21:12 |
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Blazer
Messages: 3322
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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General (3 Stars)
Administrator/General |
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Almost the oldest argument ever. There are two schools of thought:
1. A sound is not a sound unless it is heard by something. Sound waves themselves are not a sound. Once the waves strike something that vibrates and is converted to electrical signals to a brain, then there is a "sound". If there is nobody there to convert the soundwaves, there was no sound. The tree fell, there was cause, but no effect.
2. Sound waves do not require physical/electrical conversion to be classified as a sound. The tree falling definitely disturbs the air, creating sound waves. It does not matter that there was nobody there to say "hey I hear I sound", the sound waves are still generated and propogate outward. Sound waves do not operate on the quantum level, the tree fell, it made a sound, there was nobody to hear it, simple as that.
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| Re: If a tree falls in the forest... [message #288418 is a reply to message #288408] |
Thu, 04 October 2007 21:54 |
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cheesesoda
Messages: 6507
Registered: March 2003
Location: Jackson, Michigan
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General (5 Stars) |
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| razorblade001 wrote on Thu, 04 October 2007 23:39 |
So therefore, the sound wave is going out so far that it dissipates before anyone can hear it, and thus there is no sound to be heard!
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Saying that means you admit to there being sound... just not one heard by human ears.
| razorblade001 |
Just because the sound wave is there doesn't mean that is going to make a sound.
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Just because it can't be heard by humans doesn't mean it doesn't make a sound. Dogs can hear higher frequencies than humans can, but would you dare say that it's not a sound because WE can't hear it?
| razorblade001 |
Think of it this way: A sound can't exist if it cannot be heard.
For example, say your def. To you, sound doesn't exist. It may be all around, but specifically to you, sound doesn't exist.
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So a spirit can't exist because it cannot be seen? So atoms didn't exist until they were seen microscopically? Other galaxies didn't exist until they were seen telescopically?
Just because circumstantial situations prevent the said object to be seen/heard doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
Just because, to you, seeing is believing doesn't mean that a god or gods cannot exist. It's a ludicrous assumption.
whoa.
[Updated on: Thu, 04 October 2007 21:55] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: If a tree falls in the forest... [message #288453 is a reply to message #288438] |
Fri, 05 October 2007 04:09 |
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R315r4z0r
Messages: 3836
Registered: March 2005
Location: New York
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General (3 Stars) |
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Cheesesoda, your not getting what I said... of course all that other stuff would still exist (according to most logic anyway)
But a sound is different. I'm talking about using the information in the question, you don't hear the sound, the sound doesn't happen.
I'm betting most people here are probably thinking "Ok, so since no one was around to hear it, if I just imagine what it was like to be there and relate it to the sound of a tree falling, of course it made a sound"
If anyone is thinking like that, your wrong. Your not there, you can't hear it if your not there.
The tree falls down, causing soundwaves to spread out. However, nothing is within the range of the sound waves that are going to hear the sound before it dissipates. If your not in range, you don't here it. There is nothing there to convert the actual wave into a readable sound.
Think of it like an empty bus. The bus still goes to the destination, but without anyone on the bus, no one gets to that destination.
Edit: Why do people keep bringing up "well animals live in a forest"
Cause if your bringing that up, then you don't understand the question. The question says "if NO ONE IS AROUND to hear it"
"No one" means any being that can hear a sound. Since when does "No one" specifically mean "No human?"
[Updated on: Fri, 05 October 2007 04:12] Report message to a moderator |
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