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| Re: smoking ban in uk... [message #261083 is a reply to message #260906] |
Sat, 26 May 2007 20:10   |
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Jecht
Messages: 3156
Registered: September 2004
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General (3 Stars) |
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Right, but a health code to enforce good ventilation if they want to smoke would meet them half-way, and improve people's health slightly. Health is where I draw the line on business's rights. A resteraunt and pub should have clean dishes, unsoiled food and drink, and a healthy atmosphere.
The book "The Jungle" comes to mind if you give businesses too many rights without proper regulations. Although it was beef in that book and it's smoking here, people had the right not to eat beef then, but since all butchering plants were unsanitary, the choice was that you ate soiled beef or you weren't able to eat beef at all. I'm not an avid pub-goer, but from what I've seen, all pubs and bars allow smoking if they are able to. That kind of limits the choices for non-smokers to either go deal with the unhealthy atmosphere, or don't go to a bar at all.
Meeting a business half-way is the most fair way I can think about handling the situation.
Personally, I worked in a resteraunt for 2 years. The smoke was unbearable at times. Granted, I chose to work there, but better ventilation would have at least helped the situation.
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| Re: smoking ban in uk... [message #261084 is a reply to message #260906] |
Sat, 26 May 2007 20:14 |
fl00d3d
Messages: 1107
Registered: August 2003
Location: Iowa, USA
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General (1 Star)
Viva la Resistance! |
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Anyone in the UK have a "whites only" bar? I mean, it should be their right to run their bar how they want right? If you don't like that its white only because you're black or just find the idea offensive you could go somewhere else. And that doesn't even affect innocent bystanders health and well-being.
Just separate the sections or make a "smoke shack" where smokers can loiter with their cancer sticks and carbon monoxide poison. But you can't exactly let business owners do EVERYTHING they want or health code violations and even discrimination issues come to light.
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| Re: smoking ban in uk... [message #261085 is a reply to message #261084] |
Sat, 26 May 2007 20:21 |
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cheesesoda
Messages: 6507
Registered: March 2003
Location: Jackson, Michigan
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| fl00d3d wrote on Sat, 26 May 2007 23:14 |
Anyone in the UK have a "whites only" bar? I mean, it should be their right to run their bar how they want right? If you don't like that its white only because you're black or just find the idea offensive you could go somewhere else. And that doesn't even affect innocent bystanders health and well-being.
Just separate the sections or make a "smoke shack" where smokers can loiter with their cancer sticks and carbon monoxide poison. But you can't exactly let business owners do EVERYTHING they want or health code violations and even discrimination issues come to light.
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Actually, the discrimination against blacks was something that couldn't be controlled by the blacks. They didn't choose to be black. Though, I would say if a restaurant wanted to be racist, let them. Today their business would be out of business unless they shaped up, but it's their business, let them run it the way they see fit, as long as it meets health code regulations.
whoa.
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| Re: smoking ban in uk... [message #261121 is a reply to message #261084] |
Sun, 27 May 2007 03:32 |
puddle_splasher
Messages: 595
Registered: May 2006
Location: Scotland, UK
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| fl00d3d wrote on Sat, 26 May 2007 22:14 |
Just separate the sections or make a "smoke shack" where smokers can loiter with their cancer sticks and carbon monoxide poison.
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They have that in Scotland. The more up-market pubs are giving them mini beer gardens to sit in with overhead heating. The alternative is that they stand outside the pub on the street.
[Updated on: Sun, 27 May 2007 03:34] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: smoking ban in uk... [message #261159 is a reply to message #260906] |
Sun, 27 May 2007 07:37 |
FrAM
Messages: 131
Registered: May 2007
Location: England
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just to redirect the topic... this isnt about smoking in general, it is about the smoking ban.
I think that in eating environments, to right no smoking, but as for pub... i suppose if you wanna relax after long day and have a pint then you wanna be able to have a fag as well(this is from the perspective of non-smoker).
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| Re: smoking ban in uk... [message #261207 is a reply to message #261181] |
Sun, 27 May 2007 11:10 |
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Memphis
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Registered: January 2005
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| j_ball430 wrote on Sun, 27 May 2007 11:21 |
It's funny how you idiots want freedoms unless it's something that you don't like. Hypocritical much? If you don't like what someone does... tough shit. Unless people harm others, they should be able to do whatever the fuck they please. I know the US and UK are different, but I still feel that people should have the right to do what they want with their bodies and wherever they want so as long as it's permitted there by the owners. If a company wants to allows smokers to smoke in their building, who should stop them? Certainly not the government.
Get off of your high horses and realize that just because you don't like it doesn't mean that it shouldn't be allowed. Afterall, think about what would happen if someone who disagreed with you had their way about some of your favorite activities? What if alcohol was banned like it was here during the 1920s? Alcohol is bad for the body, and drunks are nasty, so it'd be a good thing for the government to ban it, right? Wrong. STFU or GTFO.
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Once again it is nice to see your acceptance for something different j_ball. I'm not sure if you understood that this concept was tested on a much smaller scale before it branched out. Scotland may not be a really small place but even so the reaction of the general public was positive. At the end of the day they have tried many different ways to warm people of the dangers of smoking for decades now and it has come to little or no affect. As it stands now before the smoking ban it surprises me that people smoke if you know the costs of the habbit. Let us say that someone smokes about 20 cigarettes a day, this will cost them about £5.50 every day. When you look at the tax on those products you already see that they are very overpriced which I personally see as one method of the Government putting people off. I agree with the ban in public places such as bars and restaurants as it really is horrible for a non smoker to be breathing in the smoke and also to eat food around smoke. I think banning it in public work places is a step too far as people are often in high stress situations where it will make a bit of a difference. There is no reason for people to smoke so why should others have to put up with people damaging their health and sometimes yours for no purpose.
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| Re: smoking ban in uk... [message #261208 is a reply to message #260906] |
Sun, 27 May 2007 11:24 |
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cheesesoda
Messages: 6507
Registered: March 2003
Location: Jackson, Michigan
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You don't get it, do you? It's not about the health ramifications of smoking. It's about the freedoms of the individual and the businesses. It's not the job of the government to tell people that they can't do something that could be detrimental to their health. That's the decision of the individual to make, and if a business wants to allow that activity, then they have every right.
The point that this works in Scotland doesn't mean shit to me. Everybody would be better off abstaining from sex until marriage to prevent over-population and underage pregnancies. Everybody would be better off sober. There's a lot of things that the government could do to make sure the people stay safe and healthy. Like, for instance, banning fast food restaurants, and regulating restaurants to limited amounts of calories per portion for each meal. Just because it'd have a positive impact on the health of the country doesn't mean it should be enforced by the government. The government is supposed to protect the people from outside threats, but not from themselves.
It just boggles my mind how people can allow for the blatant disregard for peoples' freedoms under the blanket idea of "common good". What about personal freedom? Doesn't that mean anything, anymore?
whoa.
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| Re: smoking ban in uk... [message #261214 is a reply to message #261211] |
Sun, 27 May 2007 11:55 |
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cheesesoda
Messages: 6507
Registered: March 2003
Location: Jackson, Michigan
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| Memphis wrote on Sun, 27 May 2007 14:43 |
I know what you are looking at which is the principle of what they have done and yes you do have a point. My point is that although they do infringe some peoples freedoms to a certain degree the policy will save thousands of lives a year which I deem to be worth it.
If that is the price (minuscule in my opinion)to pay for a healthier nation I'm fine with it. As you can tell I am biased as I am a non smoker however I did live with someone that smoked and if it wasn't for their premature death due to something unrelated I am absolutely certain they would have died of something directly connected to smoke. This person always said they regretted taking up the habbit (at this time they actually didn't know better unlike now). I feel this attitude is reflected in a large proportion of smokers today.
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Again, it's not the government's job to decide that we have to live healthier lives. It can support the idea and support progressive movements, but no outright prohibitions and bannings.
Do you know how many lives would be saved from heart disease related deaths or illnesses if we banned McDonald's, Burger King, etc...? Certainly you support banning of this then if it saves thousands of lives a year (which it would), right?
(Edit:) While we're at it, let's ban automobiles, too! They kill an estimated 1.2 million worldwide annually. 1.2 MILLION. We're not talking thousands of lives. We're talking about over ONE MILLION lives lost PER YEAR due to automotive accidents. Wouldn't that be worthwhile to ban, then?
I'm a stern believer in personal responsibility. If a smoker regrets taking up the habit, it's their responsibility to deal with their addiction. The government has no place to step in even if the person requests it. Their choice got them addicted in the first place, now it's their responsibility to pull themselves out of the habit.
I'm a non-smoker myself, but I do enjoy the occasional cigar. What about my rights? I don't smoke enough for it to give me any chronic health problems. As little as I smoke, my lungs are perfectly capable of healing themselves.
whoa.
[Updated on: Sun, 27 May 2007 12:05] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: smoking ban in uk... [message #261220 is a reply to message #260906] |
Sun, 27 May 2007 12:15 |
MexPirate
Messages: 883
Registered: March 2006
Location: UK
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Smoking in resteraunts isn't nice, almost all in the UK apart from the curry houses ban smoking already - nobody, even a smoker wants to be surrounded by smoke when they eat a meal.
Bars/Pubs on the other hand is where you go to relax, socialise and drink - there are plenty of non-smokers I know that will have a cigarette when they drink and are in that atmosphere, personally as soon as alcohol passes my lips I have a strong desire to smoke, the two just go hand in hand.
It pisses me off how discrimination against some minorities is acceptable, but other not - age discrimination is a no no for example as long as its against old people, young people on the other hand get constantly discriminated against, getting paid less for doing the same job as someone else for example. Racism is another one, obviously actual racism is disgusting but lets say a white person commits a crime against a black person - the question is instantly raised "was it a racist crime?" put it the other way round an nobody lifts an eyebrow. I don't see how smokers are any different, if the majority smoked this would never even have come up, but because they are in the minority and it is socially acceptable to discriminate against smokers it's all good to take away their freedoms.
It's a mexican pirate .... F*ck a dog by Blink 182
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| Re: smoking ban in uk... [message #261225 is a reply to message #261223] |
Sun, 27 May 2007 12:49 |
z310
Messages: 2459
Registered: July 2003
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General (2 Stars) |
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| j_ball430 wrote on Sun, 27 May 2007 15:48 |
| Javaxcx wrote on Sun, 27 May 2007 15:17 |
If you have a problem with people smoking, go somewhere where they aren't smoking. Christ, sometimes you people amaze me with this high horsery. As a non-smoker, I don't care if you smoke or not. It's when you smoke someplace that others have to go to, such a public building or public washroom, that causes a problem. Most smokers I have met are extremely responsable individuals and if you ask them not to smoke in a washroom or a government building (if you're anal enough to care for the few minutes you are in either building) they will probably understand your concern and stop.
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QFT
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| Re: smoking ban in uk... [message #261236 is a reply to message #260906] |
Sun, 27 May 2007 13:36 |
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Trouble with asking people to not smoke, in my experience, is they often don't, like I've said, if they want to go ahead and slowly kill themselves, I've not going to stop them (Even if they're my friends) but... not in my face?
Renguard is a wonderful initiative
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| BBC news, quoting... |
Supporters of Proposition 8 will argue California does not discriminate against gays, as the current law allows them to get married - as long as they wed a partner of the opposite sex.
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| halokid wrote on Mon, 11 October 2010 08:46 |
| R315r4z0r wrote on Mon, 11 October 2010 15:35 |
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the hell is that?
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| Re: smoking ban in uk... [message #261336 is a reply to message #261220] |
Sun, 27 May 2007 19:46 |
FrAM
Messages: 131
Registered: May 2007
Location: England
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| MexPirate wrote on Sun, 27 May 2007 22:15 |
Smoking in resteraunts isn't nice, almost all in the UK apart from the curry houses ban smoking already - nobody, even a smoker wants to be surrounded by smoke when they eat a meal.
Bars/Pubs on the other hand is where you go to relax, socialise and drink - there are plenty of non-smokers I know that will have a cigarette when they drink and are in that atmosphere, personally as soon as alcohol passes my lips I have a strong desire to smoke, the two just go hand in hand.
It pisses me off how discrimination against some minorities is acceptable, but other not - age discrimination is a no no for example as long as its against old people, young people on the other hand get constantly discriminated against, getting paid less for doing the same job as someone else for example. Racism is another one, obviously actual racism is disgusting but lets say a white person commits a crime against a black person - the question is instantly raised "was it a racist crime?" put it the other way round an nobody lifts an eyebrow. I don't see how smokers are any different, if the majority smoked this would never even have come up, but because they are in the minority and it is socially acceptable to discriminate against smokers it's all good to take away their freedoms.
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i like the way this guy thinks
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| Re: smoking ban in uk... [message #261443 is a reply to message #261208] |
Mon, 28 May 2007 07:37 |
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warranto
Messages: 2584
Registered: February 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
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| j_ball430 wrote on Sun, 27 May 2007 12:24 |
You don't get it, do you? It's not about the health ramifications of smoking. It's about the freedoms of the individual and the businesses.
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I want the FREEDOM to go into any place I want and not have to put my health at risk just so someone can alleviate their addiction.
I don't like my FREEDOM to go where I please being prevented because I CHOOSE to remain healthy.
This whole "freedom of the individual" goes both ways you know.
You can't complain about your freedom of choice being put down when you are doing that exact same thing to others.
As you said...
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Enough with the selfishness. You don't like it? Tough. Get over it.
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[Updated on: Mon, 28 May 2007 07:38] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: smoking ban in uk... [message #261448 is a reply to message #261443] |
Mon, 28 May 2007 08:21 |
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cheesesoda
Messages: 6507
Registered: March 2003
Location: Jackson, Michigan
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| warranto |
I want the FREEDOM to go into any place I want and not have to put my health at risk just so someone can alleviate their addiction.
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YOU don't own the business.
| warranto |
I don't like my FREEDOM to go where I please being prevented because I CHOOSE to remain healthy.
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There's a thing called private property. Maybe you've heard of it? Again, YOU don't own the business.
| warranto |
This whole "freedom of the individual" goes both ways you know.
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I also mentioned the freedom of the business, too... this would be the third time doing so while replying to your post.
| warranto |
You can't complain about your freedom of choice being put down when you are doing that exact same thing to others.
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Smokers aren't passing legislation against non-smokers and forcing businesses to bide by their wishes.
| warranto |
As you said...
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Enough with the selfishness. You don't like it? Tough. Get over it.
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Again, smokers didn't pass legislation forcing businesses to allow smoking, did they? 
whoa.
[Updated on: Mon, 28 May 2007 08:22] Report message to a moderator |
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