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| Re: Jesus [message #215886 is a reply to message #215250] |
Mon, 28 August 2006 20:09   |
msgtpain
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Colonel |
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Crimson, the irony of this entire conversation is that if anyone could "prove" to you that God exists, there would no longer be a need for you to know.
So many people claim that God doesn't exist, because he lets evil happen on the earth. If you've made any attempt at all to understand his teachings, you would know that he has no choice but to allow it. To call him malevolent because of this is outright silly, he doesn't "intend" you any harm, he doesn't "wish" you any hurt, there is no ill-will at all.
The problem (or catch-22 if you will) is that what he has promised, requires blind-faith on your (our) part. If he were to say "hey guys, here I am, I really do exist", then there would be no reason for anyone not to believe. He has promised that those who do believe will inherit the kingdom of heaven. That's a pretty big prize, assuming that it is all true; and all you have to do is live your life in a way that makes him happy --- And in the end, all you're really doing is living a life that makes your fellow man happy.
Personally, I don't believe that you have to follow any one religion to gain the reward he has promised, but you do have to actually believe in him, and agree to attempt to live in a manner that he approves of. If you succede at this, you'll win in the end, regardless of which thief you give your money to here on earth.
If God promised you eternal salvation in exchange for believing him, and he took away the ability to Not believe in him, then his promise would be sort of meaningless... everyone would be rewarded in the end.
If you're simply in to science, take a look at Pascal's Wager.. while it provides no proof, it does show you how you have a 75% chance of being better off in the end, simply by believing in god whether or not he exists. The other 25% will be miserable 
For me, it isn't a matter of what bad things men have done in the name of religion. These are the same men that you claim "created" religion for their own benefit. They are simply "men", and they aren't perfect -- some are far from it. However, God's underlying message has not changed, only those who attempt to persuade you in to believing for their own gain. God's message is simple.. Love one another, live in a manner that brings respect to you, your elders and your children; "be a good person" -- you're probably already doing it without even trying.
</unTypicalReligiousRant>
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| Re: Jesus [message #215887 is a reply to message #215886] |
Mon, 28 August 2006 20:21 |
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Javaxcx
Messages: 1943
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Location: Canada, eh?
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| msgtpain wrote on Mon, 28 August 2006 23:09 |
For me, it isn't a matter of what bad things men have done in the name of religion. These are the same men that you claim "created" religion for their own benefit. They are simply "men", and they aren't perfect -- some are far from it. However, God's underlying message has not changed, only those who attempt to persuade you in to believing for their own gain. God's message is simple.. Love one another, live in a manner that brings respect to you, your elders and your children; "be a good person" -- you're probably already doing it without even trying.
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I tend to subscribe to the contextual moral code "Do unto others..." not because Jesus said it (granted it seems to coincide convienently) but because it makes rational sense. Philosophers almost accross the board have agreed on this one ethical truth from both ends of the spectrum.
Now I'm not familiar with Mormonism at all, so correct me if I'm mistaken, but the Bible itself says that following that one commandment from Jesus just simply isn't enough. You have to "give yourself to God" (whatever the hell that means), "accept Salvation", and a myriad of submissive commands in order to get the prize at the end. It just simply is not as simple has following a moral code and that is where the Bible loses it's appeal to the skeptical masses. Unfortunately a lot, if not all of these commands have no rational basis at all. You can go about living your life as Jesus would have but you might not subscribe to say... Tithing for whatever reason you can conjure up that will produce just as much good. If the moral code of the Bible were as simple as "To unto others as you would have done unto you" then I assure you we wouldn't be having this discussion. But the problem lies much farther then simple morals. Some of the prerequisites to see the kingdom of God are downright illogical and not worth subscribing to.
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| Re: Jesus [message #215888 is a reply to message #215250] |
Mon, 28 August 2006 20:37 |
msgtpain
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The actual beliefs of Mormonism are far more in-depth than 'believing' or 'not believing', and a conversation in these forums wouldn't help shed any light on the subject
There is quite a bit of terminology involved which paints the picture completely differently if you're thinking one way, and I'm explaining it another. For example: You state "the Bible itself says that following that one commandment from Jesus just simply isn't enough", enough for what? salvation? Mormonism teaches that all men receive eternal salvation, that was the gift we were given by the sacrifice. Mormon doctrine does not subscribe to the beliefe in heaven and hell, so there is no "if you believe you will be saved".. that's from the born-again bible.
I'm of the opinion that we will all see each other again one day, we will all be ressurected, we will all be given eternal salvation... you don't even have to be good for that.
And that's where the 'simple' discussion ends
[Updated on: Mon, 28 August 2006 20:38] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Jesus [message #215913 is a reply to message #215250] |
Mon, 28 August 2006 22:17 |
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Crimson
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If I live my life following the Golden Rule and do my best not to cause harm to anyone, then under my beliefs, that's good enough for to get an eternal reward if there actually is one, which I highly doubt. I gave up imaginary friends when I was very young.
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: Jesus [message #215918 is a reply to message #215250] |
Mon, 28 August 2006 22:42 |
ghost
Messages: 437
Registered: May 2005
Location: California
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Commander |
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Its all lies. "Hes" not real. Whats more to say? Just the very idea of what he can do and did...
My parents praise the lord every day yet bad things happen. I myself wear my cross around my neck everyday. Yet i get hurt and whatnot. Where is "he" then?
Its just like saying the toothfairy is real...
Please visit my forums at: RenForce
Creator of the CrazyAOW Mod
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| Re: Jesus [message #215934 is a reply to message #215918] |
Mon, 28 August 2006 23:07 |
puddle_splasher
Messages: 595
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Colonel |
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"Father forgive them, they know not what they do", was that not Jesus's last words on the cross?
What if they mis-heard, mis-spelt, mis-interpreted and it was "Father forgive them, they know not what to do".
Now by changing one word" They and substituting to", shows the sentence in a totally new light.
This is a question that has been discussed by many Christians and atheists apart.
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| Re: Jesus [message #215937 is a reply to message #215888] |
Mon, 28 August 2006 23:18 |
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Javaxcx
Messages: 1943
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Location: Canada, eh?
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| msgtpain wrote on Mon, 28 August 2006 23:37 |
The actual beliefs of Mormonism are far more in-depth than 'believing' or 'not believing', and a conversation in these forums wouldn't help shed any light on the subject
There is quite a bit of terminology involved which paints the picture completely differently if you're thinking one way, and I'm explaining it another. For example: You state "the Bible itself says that following that one commandment from Jesus just simply isn't enough", enough for what? salvation? Mormonism teaches that all men receive eternal salvation, that was the gift we were given by the sacrifice. Mormon doctrine does not subscribe to the beliefe in heaven and hell, so there is no "if you believe you will be saved".. that's from the born-again bible.
I'm of the opinion that we will all see each other again one day, we will all be ressurected, we will all be given eternal salvation... you don't even have to be good for that.
And that's where the 'simple' discussion ends
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Ahh of course. It's hard to argue damnation with someone who thinks similarily for different reasons.
Sniper Extraordinaire
Read the FUD Rules before you come in and make an ass of yourself.
All your base are belong to us.
You have no chance to survive make your time.
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| Re: Jesus [message #215939 is a reply to message #215250] |
Mon, 28 August 2006 23:37 |
Berkut
Messages: 508
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Hmm? Christians referring to their beliefs as a 'religion?' That's odd...
...and what right do humans think they have instructing others how to believe? Inefficient. Realize you can only tell each other what you believe. No ammount of pride can sway a person's mind in an argument. Especially one of such critical nature. Attempting to create with something as destructive as pride...
As far as the teachings of evolution as a science, I have lost all faith in the doctrine. 'A fish in this layer is approximately X billion years old.' 'How do you know?' 'Because of the rocks in the layers.' 'How do you know the age of the rocks?' 'Because of the fossils they contain, of course.' 'So... the fossils dated the rocks, the rocks dated the fossils?' 'Uh...yeah. They did.' 'O...k. Sounds good to me.'
Why am I being told the Earth is billions of years old? If the sun does shrink upon itself as my school once taught, if we spun the clock backwards several billion years, wouldn't the Earth have once been a component of the Sun, itself?
If this truly is a dead-end existance, why do humans persist? What do they hope to gain? What could they possibly hope for? Some empty glory, though they will not exist to realize? A feeling that they were right, even if the feeling would forever remain intangible? If all that you have accomplished, loved, and held vanished, what is your point of life? What keeps the human world from succumbing to entropy, and falling into complete anarchy?
I have wanted answers to these questions my entire life, and those 'teachers' could not find them.
...I found one. The last one; faith.
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| Re: Jesus [message #215964 is a reply to message #215250] |
Tue, 29 August 2006 04:06 |
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jnz
Messages: 3396
Registered: July 2006
Location: 30th century
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guys... i have a secret, i am the one you call god. lol.
prove i am not 
"had god ever put a Jaguar XJR in my driveway? NO!
has god ever give my enemys the hurpies? NO!" - little nicky.
i like these sort of threads, it is interesting to see poeple's stupid arguments on somthing that doen't exist.
i do beleve in after life, but not as poeple imagine it. i don't think you die and then thats it.
because i belive that there is a cosmos(outside our universe) that there are infinite universes being created and destroyed. when one of those universes are just right, your life startes again.
[Updated on: Tue, 29 August 2006 04:12] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Jesus [message #215982 is a reply to message #215939] |
Tue, 29 August 2006 06:41 |
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Scythar
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Colonel |
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| Berkut wrote on Tue, 29 August 2006 02:37 |
Hmm? Christians referring to their beliefs as a 'religion?' That's odd...
...and what right do humans think they have instructing others how to believe? Inefficient. Realize you can only tell each other what you believe. No ammount of pride can sway a person's mind in an argument. Especially one of such critical nature. Attempting to create with something as destructive as pride...
As far as the teachings of evolution as a science, I have lost all faith in the doctrine. 'A fish in this layer is approximately X billion years old.' 'How do you know?' 'Because of the rocks in the layers.' 'How do you know the age of the rocks?' 'Because of the fossils they contain, of course.' 'So... the fossils dated the rocks, the rocks dated the fossils?' 'Uh...yeah. They did.' 'O...k. Sounds good to me.'
Why am I being told the Earth is billions of years old? If the sun does shrink upon itself as my school once taught, if we spun the clock backwards several billion years, wouldn't the Earth have once been a component of the Sun, itself?
If this truly is a dead-end existance, why do humans persist? What do they hope to gain? What could they possibly hope for? Some empty glory, though they will not exist to realize? A feeling that they were right, even if the feeling would forever remain intangible? If all that you have accomplished, loved, and held vanished, what is your point of life? What keeps the human world from succumbing to entropy, and falling into complete anarchy?
I have wanted answers to these questions my entire life, and those 'teachers' could not find them.
...I found one. The last one; faith.
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Yeah, it's obvious that faith can give our lives a meaning. However, why is that? Isn't it because of hope? HOPE is the word it all falls down to, and both religion and science offer it. Religion in the form of somekind of immortality and eternal happiness, science in the form of.....somekind of immortality and eternal happiness! I'm not going to argue about either way of hoping, even if they don't necessarily even exclude each others, but what I'm saying is that the REASON why we persist is HOPE. Hope for a better life in the vague future.
Does hope equal the instinct of survival?
The human race, or better yet, every living being, seems to stubbornly do anything it takes to live on and continue to the future, knowingly and subconsciously. It's how we were built, either by nature or by a higher being. Those who fall and are no longer motivated at fighting and surviving for their future are the ones who have no hope left. They die. Hope seems to equal the instinct of survival, looks like it's just a more elaborate term for it, just like greedom or jealousity.
Now the problem is that without the instinct of survival(greediness, hope...), you die. But with too much of it, you also die. A person with not enough of it doesn't care about himself and dies. If the whole race consists of these types of individuals, the race will go extinct. A person with too much of it doesn't care about OTHERS and eventually dies too , on his quest of terminating other individuals to gain the safest position to continue life from (ultimate anarchy?*). This too results in extinction.
Am I wrong here? Is there a major flaw? I rambled on again, without thinking too much. :/
* Anarchy is used with varying meanings...basically, it just means there's no government/police/guardians of order, which doesn't mean no order. If a race has no survival instinct, it doesn't need "guardians of order", but such a state wouldn't last long. It's used as a word to directly describe disorder and chaos too, though.
There's a hole in the sky through which things can fly.
[Updated on: Tue, 29 August 2006 06:43] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Jesus [message #216053 is a reply to message #215939] |
Tue, 29 August 2006 11:16 |
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Crimson
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| Berkut wrote on Mon, 28 August 2006 23:37 |
...and what right do humans think they have instructing others how to believe? Inefficient. Realize you can only tell each other what you believe. No ammount of pride can sway a person's mind in an argument. Especially one of such critical nature. Attempting to create with something as destructive as pride...
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It depends how deeply the beliefs are held. When someone's beliefs are in flux or the foundation of their faith rocked, they are much more perceptible to listen to logic and rethink what they believed.
| Berkut wrote on Mon, 28 August 2006 23:37 |
As far as the teachings of evolution as a science, I have lost all faith in the doctrine. 'A fish in this layer is approximately X billion years old.' 'How do you know?' 'Because of the rocks in the layers.' 'How do you know the age of the rocks?' 'Because of the fossils they contain, of course.' 'So... the fossils dated the rocks, the rocks dated the fossils?' 'Uh...yeah. They did.' 'O...k. Sounds good to me.'
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Sounds to me like you don't know anything about evolution, then. Like... absolutely nothing.
| Over 300 proofs of God's existence |
ARGUMENT FROM CREATION, aka ARGUMENT FROM PERSONAL INCREDULITY (I)
(1) If evolution is false, then creationism is true, and therefore God exists.
(2) Evolution can't be true, since I lack the mental capacity to understand it; moreover, to accept its truth would cause me to be uncomfortable.
(3) Therefore, God exists.
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| Berkut wrote on Mon, 28 August 2006 23:37 |
Why am I being told the Earth is billions of years old? If the sun does shrink upon itself as my school once taught, if we spun the clock backwards several billion years, wouldn't the Earth have once been a component of the Sun, itself?
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Yes, dabble in quantum mechanics. Read about the Big Bang. That's exactly what "they" are saying.
| Berkut wrote on Mon, 28 August 2006 23:37 |
If this truly is a dead-end existance, why do humans persist? What do they hope to gain? What could they possibly hope for? Some empty glory, though they will not exist to realize? A feeling that they were right, even if the feeling would forever remain intangible? If all that you have accomplished, loved, and held vanished, what is your point of life? What keeps the human world from succumbing to entropy, and falling into complete anarchy?
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Response:
| 300 Proofs of God's Existence |
COSMOLOGICAL ARGUMENT
(1) If I say something must have a cause, it has a cause.
(2) I say the universe must have a cause.
(3) Therefore, the universe has a cause.
(4) Therefore, God exists.
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| Quote: |
I have wanted answers to these questions my entire life, and those 'teachers' could not find them.
...I found one. The last one; faith.
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Congratulations for giving up at a young age and taking the easy way out, the cop out, instead of searching for a greater truth.
Also pertinent to you and warranto:
| 300 Proofs of God's Existence |
ARGUMENT FROM INFINITE REGRESS
(1) Ask Atheists what caused the Big Bang.
(2) Regardless of their answer, ask how they know this.
(3) Continue process until the Atheist admits he doesn't know the answer to one of your questions.
(4) You win!
(5) Therefore, God exists.
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I'm the bawss.
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| Re: Jesus [message #216057 is a reply to message #215250] |
Tue, 29 August 2006 11:31 |
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warranto
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Location: Alberta, Canada
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| Quote: |
ARGUMENT FROM INFINITE REGRESS
(1) Ask Atheists what caused the Big Bang.
(2) Regardless of their answer, ask how they know this.
(3) Continue process until the Atheist admits he doesn't know the answer to one of your questions.
(4) You win!
(5) Therefore, God exists
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Perhaps that would apply to me, if I were trying to prove God existed.
Unfortunately for you, I'm not.
Besides, that Infinite Regress works both ways. All you have to do is replace "Atheists" with "Theologists" to arrive at the answer that God does not exist.
My arguments are solely aimed at people who claim to know, or suggest that they know by stating their answer as an absolute. (ie. "God doesn't exist", or "Believing in God is stupid" instead of "I don't believe that God exists" or "Believing in God doesn't make sense to me")
[Updated on: Tue, 29 August 2006 11:32] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Jesus [message #216061 is a reply to message #215250] |
Tue, 29 August 2006 11:43 |
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Crimson
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So you're arguing semantics in a theological debate. Why don't you correct our spelling, too?
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: Jesus [message #216072 is a reply to message #215250] |
Tue, 29 August 2006 12:00 |
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Scythar
Messages: 580
Registered: February 2003
Location: Finland
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Colonel |
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Seems more like defending agnosticism to me...on a debate where you can pick either side or anything between, I don't see what's so bad in that.
There's a hole in the sky through which things can fly.
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| Re: Jesus [message #216095 is a reply to message #215250] |
Tue, 29 August 2006 12:44 |
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Crimson
Messages: 7429
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So you're picking on the WAY an argument is presented rather than considering its merits. Just because you believe yourself to be a world-reknowned expert on absolute meanings and differences between knowing, knowledge, and belief, doesn't negate the points being made surrounding the usage of the word you pick apart.
If I say "I know there's no God because X, X and X." or I say "I believe there's no God because of X, X, and X", it doesn't negate X, X, and X, but you take them out of the debate and pick on the person for saying "know" instead of "believe". That's not good debate skills.
I'm the bawss.
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