Home » Renegade Discussions » Clan/Community Forum » -United Anti-Cheating Federation-
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| Re: -United Anti-Cheating Federation- [message #208070 is a reply to message #208051] |
Fri, 14 July 2006 11:23   |
Tiesto
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| mrpirate wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 18:00 |
| Goztow wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 05:25 |
| Leiw wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 10:38 |
Yeah, we're making a known-cheater list too, we already got aroung 70 nicks and 110 ips, still working on it, I'll tell you when it's finished, perhaps that's the only way we can do something. 
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I got more cheaters banned off my server, though.
Maiden, how do you know if someone was/is cheating or not? At the moment no tests are valid anymore, theer are enough cheats that you simply cannot spot on screenshots or during a test. Even if you would ban someone, they could join back in your league as easy as they could join back in a public server.
So how is keeping cheats out of your league so different compared to keeping cheats out of a public server? You don't even have a more or less impartial person in the game during the clan wars as one team will say they cheat and the other says they don't.
Just to show i find "Result: no cheating at all in clan games" a bit weird. Maybe "no catching cheaters in clan wars" would be a more appropriate statement (meaning at least they need to be careful about which cheat they use).
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I think the big difference between the moderation on your server and on clanwars is that people like spoony are actually good Renegade players, and as such will usually know when someone is genuinely cheating, as opposed to the retarded shenanigans on the KOSs2's server.
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BUrn.
Exodus Senior Moderator
For a commwar against Exodus, pm me.
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| Re: -United Anti-Cheating Federation- [message #208073 is a reply to message #208061] |
Fri, 14 July 2006 12:50 |
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Spoony
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| mrpirate wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 12:03 |
| MaidenTy1 wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 12:34 |
| Goztow wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 04:25 |
Maiden, how do you know if someone was/is cheating or not? At the moment no tests are valid anymore
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You're grossly uninformed if you think that. "No tests or screenshots are valid" is usually what idiotic public server moderators say when they're totally convinced a skilled player is cheating, ask for a test, get proved wrong, but don't want to admit it or allow the player to be unbanned. (I think de7 probably knows what I'm talking about because I saw him in a situation like that on some public server or other, I forget which forum it was)
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It was Goztow's server.
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haha, well, case closed. Goztow, if I ever want an admin who'll ban players without proof and without giving them a chance to prove their innocence on the grounds that "no screenshots and tests are valid", you'll be my first phonecall. Until then, kindly don't question Clanwars.cc's judgement.
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Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
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[Updated on: Fri, 14 July 2006 12:55] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: -United Anti-Cheating Federation- [message #208082 is a reply to message #208078] |
Fri, 14 July 2006 13:46 |
Tunaman
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| Leiw wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 16:37 |
Erm, sorry for disturbing you in your discussion, but this topic is meant to present the UACF and not to discuss if Goztow is doing his job right. At my mind he's doing a good job, perhaps that's why you have to be three to attack him and his opinions about testing cheaters. I just wonder how YOU would test e.g.: Damage hacks, or can you look what mousebutton the test-person is clicking? 
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Oh yes, banning people because they're better than you(obviously they MUST be cheating), is doing a good job.
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| Re: -United Anti-Cheating Federation- [message #208106 is a reply to message #207222] |
Fri, 14 July 2006 16:01 |
Leiw
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I read it and the only thing I have to say is that, in my mind, they have choosen the right decision. Perhaps you're angry because you got banned in a good server, that's probably why you are insulting me (moron, idiot, etc..), just make a new nick, play cheat-free and start to having fun with renegade again.  It's not the end of the world just because you got caught once, just don't do it again. Reset your router, make a new nick and play.
Edit: And please stop insulting me, thanks.
[Updated on: Fri, 14 July 2006 16:02] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: -United Anti-Cheating Federation- [message #208110 is a reply to message #208106] |
Fri, 14 July 2006 16:14 |
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Sniper_De7
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| Leiw wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 18:01 |
I read it and the only thing I have to say is that, in my mind, they have choosen the right decision. Perhaps you're angry because you got banned in a good server, that's probably why you are insulting me (moron, idiot, etc..), just make a new nick, play cheat-free and start to having fun with renegade again. It's not the end of the world just because you got caught once, just don't do it again. Reset your router, make a new nick and play.
Edit: And please stop insulting me, thanks.
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Yeah, because a person would be mad if he got banned from a server if there were 50 more. Not to mention it's not good if they ban without any shred of evidence besides "i feel he was cheating" Wow. Very good. "in your mind", you're wrong, because there is no proof what-so-ever that him or me cheated. There is nothing they could say except one thing... he killed them fast. Which, sadly, is not near enough proof for someone cheating. As opposed to a fraps video showing conclusively a person doing more damage than they should.
The same happened to me when they banned me. Absolutely no proof at all. The last moment before being banned I was fighting the admin and it was a 1v1 with deadeye vs black hand sniper and I killed him in 5 shots... One would think that if you're going to ban after that you'd have something to go on beside some "gut feeling"
and besides, why would we really need to cheat? as far as gamespy clanning goes, i've played a fair few and gse was renown for back when it played and I was very good, so why would I, someone who's good(mrp), need to cheat? If a guy was one of the top players of say counterstrike, would you think he'd need to cheat? No, you wouldn't, so don't act like you have any knowledge about any of this because you started playing renegade since TFD. Been here for 4 years, I just *might* be good, ya think?
Oderint, dum metuant.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. - Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
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| Re: -United Anti-Cheating Federation- [message #208144 is a reply to message #208078] |
Sat, 15 July 2006 00:01 |
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Spoony
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| Leiw wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 15:37 |
Erm, sorry for disturbing you in your discussion, but this topic is meant to present the UACF and not to discuss if Goztow is doing his job right. At my mind he's doing a good job, perhaps that's why you have to be three to attack him and his opinions about testing cheaters.
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I didn't. I defended myself against his statements, not the other way around.
| Leiw wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 15:37 |
I just wonder how YOU would test e.g.: Damage hacks, or can you look what mousebutton the test-person is clicking?
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I'll give you an example. This is the last person I banned for cheating in the Renegade Clanwars.cc league - C4Packer. Here is my post on the CW forums explaining his ban:
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STiLLDr3x (packer) and Latuyanub (poison I believe?) vs me and big (big using spaz's name, me on the cheeters name)
We raped them the first three games, even though it was obvious packer was cheating. The fourth game I took the opportunity to get some proof of what everyone knows...
Map Field, us GDI. They had an art and a light, we kill the art (poison), packer is hitting our harv with his light tank.
8 points per shot, which is clearly augmented... the default is either 5 or 6 on a harvester with a light tank, as you can see...
If that wasn't proof enough, later I get something truly damning. Fudgepacker is the light tank (as you can see by the points)
82 and 83 damage with single light tank shells. I think the majority knows light tank damage is 52.
GG packer, you are now officially the biggest loser on this forum, and you also join Powergun in the banned club. Please reply by saying nobody other than you has a life 
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^^ There you have it. That is 100% conclusive evidence and it is irrefutable. I'll come back to that in a moment.
| Leiw wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 15:37 |
I read it and the only thing I have to say is that, in my mind, they have choosen the right decision. Perhaps you're angry because you got banned in a good server, that's probably why you are insulting me (moron, idiot, etc..), just make a new nick, play cheat-free and start to having fun with renegade again. Smile It's not the end of the world just because you got caught once, just don't do it again. Reset your router, make a new nick and play.
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So what you're saying is that they or you do not need to provide any evidence whatsoever when labelling a player a cheater, nor are they required to give them a chance to prove their innocence.
Let me repeat one of your posts.
| Leiw wrote on Fri, 14 July 2006 15:37 |
He's right, you can't ban anyone without testing, or being 100% SURE that they are cheating
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You say this, but you or Koss cannot provide the slightest shred of evidence that De7 or Mrpirate cheated, and yet you think it's perfectly justified that they are banned. Hypocrite, anybody?
Compare that to the last person I banned from the Clanwars.cc league, where the evidence was completely incontravertible.
Again, I rest my case, and I seriously question the validity of this "100% proven cheaters list", considering how bad your judgement is on the de7/mrpirate issue.
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Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
[Updated on: Sat, 15 July 2006 00:12] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: -United Anti-Cheating Federation- [message #208146 is a reply to message #207222] |
Sat, 15 July 2006 00:21 |
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Spoony
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Oh by the way, as a former server owner allow me to throw in an opinion about that thread.
If you don't have jack shit in the way of evidence, as Koss doesn't against De7 or Mrpirate, you are perfectly within your rights to revoke their ability to play on your server... hell, you pay for it, you can choose who gets to play there. You DO NOT have the right to label them a cheater and besmirch their reputation, as KoSS and Leiw wrongly did here.
One final thing: several Koss players, as well as Leiw, give the pathetic "reason" for not requiring tests, screenshots, Renguard etc when banning or labelling a player as a "cheater"... that those three things are bypassable. Well, guess what. C4Packer was using a cheat that wouldn't show up in a screenshot, could pass a test by left-clicking, and Renguard didn't detect. And yet I had no problem whatsoever proving conclusively that he cheated, THE FIRST TIME I PLAYED HIM.
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Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
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1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
[Updated on: Sat, 15 July 2006 00:36] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: -United Anti-Cheating Federation- [message #208149 is a reply to message #207222] |
Sat, 15 July 2006 00:54 |
Leiw
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You checked the damage of a lt, right you got him, well done, but when you got banned, you were using a gunner. I don't know with how many FPS you play but I can't check the splash damage of a gunner because it's really hard to check how far from you the shot hit the groud on which you're standing on. And read my posts: I have never said you would be cheating, the only thing I said was that <you were caught>. I wasn't in the game in which you got banned, so I can't say if you were cheating or not, I just think that the thekoss2-players don't ban just because they got owned. And still you can't test damage hacks, even if you take 5 minutes to look at the damage of a lt when the driver thinks none's looking at him, you got one, yeah, nice, but how would you check the damage of a gunner?
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| Re: -United Anti-Cheating Federation- [message #208160 is a reply to message #208149] |
Sat, 15 July 2006 01:51 |
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Spoony
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| Leiw wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 02:54 |
You checked the damage of a lt, right you got him, well done, but when you got banned, you were using a gunner.
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wasn't me...
| Leiw wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 02:54 |
I don't know with how many FPS you play but I can't check the splash damage of a gunner because it's really hard to check how far from you the shot hit the groud on which you're standing on.
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| Leiw wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 02:54 |
And still you can't test damage hacks, even if you take 5 minutes to look at the damage of a lt when the driver thinks none's looking at him, you got one, yeah, nice, but how would you check the damage of a gunner?
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How does this excuse banning someone without proof?
Let me put this as plainly as I can.
THE FACT YOU ARE UNABLE TO PROVE SOMEONE CHEATED DOES NOT GIVE YOU THE RIGHT TO BAN THEM WITHOUT PROOF. NEITHER DOES SAYING SCREENSHOTS ARE FALLIBLE, SAYING TESTS ARE FALLIBLE, OR SAYING RENGUARD IS BYPASSABLE.
By your sad attempt at logic, I can accuse you of cheating and I don't have to prove it because screenshots, tests and Renguard are fallible - it's automatically a fact that you cheated because I say you cheated.
| Leiw wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 02:54 |
And read my posts: I have never said you would be cheating, the only thing I said was that <you were caught>
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He was caught what? Stealing cookies? Masturbating? Your meaning is clear.
| Leiw wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 02:54 |
I wasn't in the game in which you got banned, so I can't say if you were cheating or not, I just think that the thekoss2-players don't ban just because they got owned.
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And I think they weren't cheating at all.
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Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
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1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
[Updated on: Sat, 15 July 2006 01:53] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: -United Anti-Cheating Federation- [message #208165 is a reply to message #207222] |
Sat, 15 July 2006 03:18 |
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Goztow
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I did expect a lot of bullshit coming out of this, tbh, still I will try to defend my case without getting into any personal attacks like almost everyone else did in here.
My statement that you cannot efficiently ban players. How can you even argue about this? If Crimson cannot keep Moee banned from renegadeforums, I ask myself how you can ban people that really want back in from yours. You must be aware that not only IP's change very rapidly today, there's also many other methods to keep anonymous on the net. Hell, ask DJM: he'll explain you.
About the test you just provided. Good going, you caught him. I can fully understand you can do these things in 2v2. But how the hell do you want to do them in a 12v12 game? It's is nearly impossible. Moreover, our moderators also want to play the game.
Our banning policy is maybe different than other servers, I agree on that. We take time to check players out but if we got enough suspicion (as in multiple moderators have serious suspicions) we will revoke your rights to get in our server. We will not ask for a screenshot as you cannot see cheats on them anymore. We will hardly ever ask you to shoot around the head in front of a rock because most cheats can bypass that. We prefer to ban one player not using cheats and 9 cheaters than to let 1 cheater play.
We got a no swearing rule, no flaming and English only rule. People have been banned for that in the past. Why? Because they simply come in the game to start swearing, flaming or not speak English. Because they got multiple warnings and multiple qkicks-kicks in the past and seem to just keep doing it because they don't want to try to respect the rules. If you don't like the rules, you don't need to join. Same for our mods: if you don't like them, then why join them? Hell, if you don't like our server, then why talk about it on this forum? It seems that enough others still like it and our clan.
I've seen one person in here replying in a decent and respectful way and that's the topic starter Leiw. He probably doesn't agree with our banning policy neather because he states he always wants 100 % proof before banning a player. That's his right.
In no way I have judged your clanwar league in this topic, still I get personal attacks throwing to me by people. "Your moderators are worthless" "Your server stinks". That wasn't needed, was it? I just wanted to show you that you should be careful about calling your league cheatfree. You just prooved my point by posting a caught cheater. At least one clan war wasn't cheatfree: the one you played there.
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THE FACT YOU ARE UNABLE TO PROVE SOMEONE CHEATED DOES NOT GIVE YOU THE RIGHT TO BAN THEM WITHOUT PROOF.
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Ofcourse it does. The fact we own the server gives us the right to ban people from it. We do pay a lot of money for it.
We actually do not try to make people look like cheaters to this community. If we talk about them, it's because they come to our forums. If people talk about them in other forums, it can be we state "he has been banned from our serevr for cheating". But I'm sure people like Leiw will not ban him for that as they want to see proove themselves first.
Last but not least because I'm not going to come back on this topic, good luck with your clan, Leiw! Come to our forums for a funwar if you are intrested (click on my siggy).
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
[Updated on: Sat, 15 July 2006 03:22] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: -United Anti-Cheating Federation- [message #208169 is a reply to message #208165] |
Sat, 15 July 2006 03:55 |
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Spoony
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| Goztow wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 05:18 |
I did expect a lot of bullshit coming out of this, tbh, still I will try to defend my case without getting into any personal attacks like almost everyone else did in here.
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I haven't attacked you personally.
| Goztow wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 05:18 |
My statement that you cannot efficiently ban players. How can you even argue about this? If Crimson cannot keep Moee banned from renegadeforums, I ask myself how you can ban people that really want back in from yours. You must be aware that not only IP's change very rapidly today, there's also many other methods to keep anonymous on the net. Hell, ask DJM: he'll explain you.
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My point stands - almost all of them try getting back into the leagues, and nine times out of then they get caught immediately. Your statement is purely theoretical whereas mine is based on consistent experience of running leagues, and not just for Renegade, so yeah.
| Goztow wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 05:18 |
About the test you just provided. Good going, you caught him. I can fully understand you can do these things in 2v2. But how the hell do you want to do them in a 12v12 game? It's is nearly impossible.
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Did you even try?
| Goztow wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 05:18 |
We will not ask for a screenshot as you cannot see cheats on them anymore.
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Some cheats aren't shown on screenshots - equally, some are.
| Goztow wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 05:18 |
We will hardly ever ask you to shoot around the head in front of a rock because most cheats can bypass that.
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equally, some don't
| Goztow wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 05:18 |
We prefer to ban one player not using cheats and 9 cheaters than to let 1 cheater play.
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That's where we differ. I'll let ten cheaters get away with it before I ban one innocent player from my league, and I'll still wager my league doesn't have 10% as much cheating as your server.
| Goztow wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 05:18 |
I've seen one person in here replying in a decent and respectful way and that's the topic starter Leiw.
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Then I guess you have me, Mrpirate and De7 on ignore. Either that or bias is clouding your judgement.
| Goztow wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 05:18 |
He probably doesn't agree with our banning policy neather because he states he always wants 100 % proof before banning a player. That's his right.
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He did say that, and he also said he agrees with players being banned without any proof whatsoever. In other words he simply doesn't know what he thinks.
| Goztow wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 05:18 |
In no way I have judged your clanwar league in this topic, still I get personal attacks throwing to me by people. "Your moderators are worthless" "Your server stinks". That wasn't needed, was it?
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What's that got to do with my league? I don't see the connection.
| Goztow wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 05:18 |
I just wanted to show you that you should be careful about calling your league cheatfree. You just prooved my point by posting a caught cheater. At least one clan war wasn't cheatfree: the one you played there.
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I hate to burst your little bubble of alternative logic, but here are the plain facts:
1. An extreme minority of clanwar players cheat in clan matches - far less than in public servers
2. My system for judging cheaters innocent or guilty is INFINITELY fairer than any public server in existence (without a doubt fairer than yours)
The C4Packer example proves my point, not yours. It was a situation where everyone in the community knew he cheated, but nobody could prove it. Then I played him anonymously and proved it conclusively - thus, he was banned. If we ran things the way you do, we'd ban him just because many players "knew" he cheated. Trouble is, you're wrong a lot of the time, so we go by evidence.
| Goztow wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 05:18 |
Ofcourse it does. The fact we own the server gives us the right to ban people from it. We do pay a lot of money for it.
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I didn't word that well - I meant you shouldn't, not you couldn't.
| Goztow wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 05:18 |
We actually do not try to make people look like cheaters to this community. If we talk about them, it's because they come to our forums. If people talk about them in other forums, it can be we state "he has been banned from our serevr for cheating".
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Leiw apparently does, with his "anti-cheating" community. No doubt Mrp and De7 are added onto their cheater list, despite their obvious innocence. But hey, let's not let minor little details like that get in the way.
| Goztow wrote on Sat, 15 July 2006 05:18 |
Last but not least because I'm not going to come back on this topic, good luck with your clan, Leiw! Come to our forums for a funwar if you are intrested (click on my siggy).
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I'd offer a funwar against either you or Leiw with my clan Taiwan, but I think it's a foregone conclusion that we'll just get accused of cheating and/or kicked from the game, so I think I won't bother.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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| Re: -United Anti-Cheating Federation- [message #208174 is a reply to message #207222] |
Sat, 15 July 2006 05:05 |
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Sniper_De7
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So you acknowledge that you ban innocent players, and even though you know there's no reason to cheat to be good, if we're already are good coupled with the fact that we took the time to post on your forums and the fact that we'd have done anything to proclaim our innocence before you had banned us, doesn't mean anything towards unbanning. EVEN THOUGH YOU ADMIT THAT YOU DO BAN INNOCENT PLAYERS THAT ARE "ABOVE THE NORM" IN SKILL(DIRECT QUOTE FROM YOUR FORUMS)? By the way, at least when you ask for a test or ask for screenshots and what not, and they fail, you know for positive they are cheating, because I'm going to go out on a limb and say that maybe 1% of all cheaters would know how to
1. bypass
2. turn off cheats (I've never seen it done, i mean aside from something like right click, which isn't turning it off it means he's just left clicking, though there are other tests to prove a person is using right click, too)
How many cheaters have you PROVED that used a damage hack such as right click or something? Generally the cheaters just use big head or final renegade and neither of which are entirely hard to spot. So, how many accounts have you proved people used a damage hack? none? So all we have on your "cheaters" list is your word, which, you don't even haev any proof that most of them cheat :\
Conclusion:
apparently all tests, RG, and screenshots are now null in void forever because they are all possible to bypass. I mean, even in RG 1.04 It's STILL possible. So just because something is possible to be bypassed, does not make it useless to use when very few know how to. This is where logic overrules :\
Edit: and by the way, I posted in a respectful matter. All I said was that your moderators banned me without any evidence aside from a "gut feeling" which is *entirely* true.
You've played GW, did you not find anything "above the norm" and consider them cheaters or accuse them of cheating? This is kind of where community players fall in line. Generally, they play in one server and no where else, and when some guy comes in, his first time, and he's something they haven't seen (because they've been playing on that server for so long and no one good has come in) They start thinking that it's impossible to be that good. Thus, cheating. If a guy went to a variety of servers he might find out that there are quite a few really good players out there, and many more better than himself. Not that I'm going to say a person should go to other servers, just that it's a flaw in deciding "what the norm" is at all. I'm all for people having fun just playing in one server, the point is to have fun. Just saying - you go to one server only and your chances of playing against great players is very small. especially when you ban them :\
Oderint, dum metuant.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. - Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
[Updated on: Sat, 15 July 2006 05:15] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: -United Anti-Cheating Federation- [message #208177 is a reply to message #207222] |
Sat, 15 July 2006 05:32 |
Leiw
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Location: Luxemburg
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By the way: Mrp and De7 are not on our cheater list, we don't check every forum and search threads about cheating to add players who get accused of cheating to our list. We really take care that our list is 100% full of cheaters, not of good players or <maybe cheaters>. thekoss2 just do their job, they try to host a balanced, fair and cheatfree server, it's not the end of the world if you're banned there, I mean, they could host a non-public server too, where just good and fair players or clanmembers and allies could join, but they're ruling a public one:
So please let us end this,
thanks(again ),
Léiw.
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