Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » The Immigration Issue
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 The Immigration Issue [message #198353] |
Sun, 30 April 2006 23:11  |
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How many think that the Guest Work Program is going to work. What DO YOU think should be done?
--Man, What A Problem, so many view and everything (like in most problems)!
Seriously people how can you fight a war on terrorism with all of your borders wide open!
The Goverment Has Failed All Of You.
Americas Founding Fathers Must Be Turing In Their Graves, As Well As Every Revolutionary, Every Soldier That Has Fought For This Great Country.
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| Re: The Immigration Issue [message #198387 is a reply to message #198353] |
Mon, 01 May 2006 08:25  |
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Dover
Messages: 2547
Registered: March 2006
Location: Monterey, California
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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I wouldn't mind the topics if they weren't so GOD AWEFULLY STUPID.
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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| Re: The Immigration Issue [message #198454 is a reply to message #198353] |
Mon, 01 May 2006 15:49 |
runewood
Messages: 138
Registered: October 2005
Location: SE Michigan
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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Im in favor of making many of the ones in the US legal, then building a giant wall with gun turrets to keep the rest out. The ones here we are stuck with, we need to stop anymore from comming in.
"Don't try to be a great man, just be a man. Let history make it's own judgments."
"Maybe its not the destination that matters, but the journey."
"How many people does it take before its wrong? A thousand? Fifty thousand? A million?"
"Im not here to tell you how it is going to end, Im here to tell you how it is going to begin."
"Its not the end or even the beggining of the end, mearly the end of the beggining."
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom; not the end."
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| Re: The Immigration Issue [message #198480 is a reply to message #198353] |
Mon, 01 May 2006 22:02 |
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Hydra
Messages: 827
Registered: September 2003
Location: Atlanta, GA
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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Various posts I've made in other forums about this issue:
| Hydra in the CNCDEN Forum |
| Lion |
The thing is, a lot of the jobs they do, the 'legal' locals won't do like shoveling manure and picking fruit, digging ditches, cleaning motel rooms, etc.
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Hmm, based on my limited experiences in the world and basically on what other people have told me in the past (in other words, this is probably a skewed and somewhat fallacious observation), this is a grand misconception.
It's not that native Americans don't want to do the work; it's that the businesses don't want to employ them and instead choose illegal aliens to make up their workforce thanks to minimum wage laws.
(This part is rather lengthy, so just skip to the last paragraph if you don't want to read all of it.)
Here's the situation: you have Average Joe American, who was born and raised in America and has never broken a law in his life, and Boarder-Crossin' Carlos Castro, who hopped the Mexican-American border to find a better life in America, both competing for a job. Both people have great work ethics who will do whatever job is given to them, no matter how dirty it may be.
Joe is in a bind, though, because Carlos has an advantage to himself that makes him more appealing to an employer.
It's not Carlos's work ethic; it's his status as a criminal.
Thanks to minimum wage laws imposed upon the employer by the ever-so-wise government, Joe cannot legally work for less than whatever the wage the government has decreed everyone has a "right" to earn. Joe has never broken a law in his life and doesn't want to start by accepting illegal payments from his employer. Likewise, his employer doesn't want to break the minimum wage law by paying Joe less than what the law will allow. The government knows who Joe is since Joe always pays his income taxes on time. If there's a discrepancy any place, then Joe's employer could be in some real trouble.
There's Carlos, though, who's in the country illegally and wouldn't mind being paid in cash under the counter. No one saw him cross the border, so the U.S. government doesn't even know he exists. Why would the government go after Carlos's employer when there's no wage discrepancy to report?
And the employer can pay Carlos the actual market value of his work rather than an inflated price imposed on the market by law.
What's the incentive for the employer? To hire Joe at an artificially inflated price imposed upon the employer by law (despite Joe's willingness to work for the actual market value of his work) and therefore lose money upon his employment? Or pay Carlos in cash under the government's radar and save money on the work he does versus his cost?
The answer is obvious. The employer is going to hire Carlos to save money. It's not Joe's fault he can't work for less (even though he wants to), but it's the government's fault for creating a black market in labor with a price floor in the form of minimum wage laws that prevent the legitimate labor market from reaching equilibrium.
EDIT:
| berlin88 |
So Derek, how do we deal with the problem in an effective manner while still trying to discourage further illegal immigration?
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You didn't ask me, but I'll answer anyway--eliminate minimum wage laws.
I don't want to set a record for repeating myself, so simply refer to the first part of this post.
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Link: http://forums.cncden.com/showthread.php?t=14847&page=2
| Hydra in RA:APB Forum |
| Steppo |
It's about time that companies become personally responsible for advocating "jumping the border" and hiring illegal immigrants at a fraction of normal living wages. It really is their fault for the illegal immigration problem to begin with.
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Not so sure about that; I'd say it's the ridiculous minimum wage and regulation laws the government has passed on so many industries that have created a black market for illegal labor.
It has become too expensive for businesses to hire legitimate employees thanks to the price floors on wages the government has imposed on businesses in the form of minimum wage laws. You can't really blame the businesses for trying to make money when the government isn't allowing the labor market reach equilibrium.
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Link: http://www.apathbeyond.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=8410
Notice a common theme? 
Walter Keith Koester: September 22, 1962 - March 15, 2005
God be with you, Uncle Wally.
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| Re: The Immigration Issue [message #198492 is a reply to message #198353] |
Tue, 02 May 2006 02:43 |
mision08
Messages: 525
Registered: May 2005
Location: Cattle Drive, Dallas to F...
Karma: 0
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I hate myself. Why did I even read this? I Don't think minimum wage comes into account here. What is minimum wage, $5.25 an hour? That is a high school kid flipping burgers at Burger King, not Carlos digging a ditch or building your house. Also, Carlos is not getting paid cash. He produces a fake ID with a made up social and receives a W-2 in January, same as Joe. He will however, take $8.00 an hour, (stereo type warning) live in an apartment with 9 others all saving their money to send back to Mexico. While Joe needs $14.00 an hour to fund his 2.1 children, 2 cars, 3 bedroom 2 and a half bath lifestyle. He better be damn thrifty to do that. Back to Carlos, there is an economical effect when people working in Texas spend their hard earned dollars in Mexico. Yes, they will take American greenbacks in Mexico. You say how do we fix this? I'm certainly glad you ask. You have to go to the root of the problem, Mexico. There are people in Mexico that are filthy rich, but all I ever see is poverty. Crime is ramppad, laws are crazy, the federollies are corrupt. Drug cartels and biker gangs run the country. And gees, the president has a last name like Fox. Come on, the Mexican president should be Gonzales. Discard the last point.
True Greatness, and just a good human
The best finish, closest finish in the 50 year history of Winston Cup
Freddy Krueger music video
Harvester Of Sorrow, language of the mad
Johnny Cash & Bob Dylan A Thousand Miles Behind
Your own personal Jesus, someone to hear your prayers
Kyle's mom is a bitch
Johnny Cash Live @ San Quentin
Don't Y'all Think This Outlaw Bit's Done Got Out Of Hand?
[Updated on: Tue, 02 May 2006 18:09] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: The Immigration Issue [message #198526 is a reply to message #198353] |
Tue, 02 May 2006 11:34 |
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Dover
Messages: 2547
Registered: March 2006
Location: Monterey, California
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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Ugh, dammit. Fine. Here are my two cents.
Illegal immigration is, you guessed it, ILLEGAL!!
Yes, these people have hopes and dreams, and all they want is a better life for themselves, but that does not give them the right to break the law.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for immigration. I myself am an immigrant from Bulgaria, but I did it the legal way, with lots of paperwork, visas, Green Cards and eventually Citizinship.
Nor do I mean to bash illegal immigrants personally. Some good friends of mine are illegal immigrants from Mexico. Do I think they should be sent back? Absolutely. Not because they're bad people, but because THE LAW CANNOT BE ENFORCED ONLY WHEN IT IS CONVIENIENT.
And I'm also sick of seeing and hearing about these protests. People who aren't in a country legally should have no right to alter it's politics.
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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| Re: The Immigration Issue [message #198559 is a reply to message #198353] |
Tue, 02 May 2006 19:39 |
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Feetseek
Messages: 239
Registered: February 2006
Location: Los Gatos, California, Ho...
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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..................................
and tacos.
Back on topic. Illegal is illegal. Illegal immigrants have the same rights as legal immigrants, which i think is unfair. The legal ones had to go through many paperwork and wait for possibly years before the came here. Illegals just drive to the border, run, and instantly gain all the rights?????? It's just weird.
"I wumbo, you wumbo, he, she, wombo, wombo, wombo-ing, wobology, the study of wombo, it's first grade SpongeBob" - Patrick Star.
Burntfirex
Feetseek
Oompaball
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| Re: The Immigration Issue [message #198582 is a reply to message #198353] |
Wed, 03 May 2006 08:16 |
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Dover
Messages: 2547
Registered: March 2006
Location: Monterey, California
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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I'm personally not fond of tacos or burritos.
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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| Re: The Immigration Issue [message #198596 is a reply to message #198353] |
Wed, 03 May 2006 10:20 |
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luv2pb
Messages: 1488
Registered: February 2004
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star)
Not everything is as it appears
Untouchable |
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How do people who don't have the right to be here have the right to protest?
N00bstories Director Of Operations
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| Re: The Immigration Issue [message #198614 is a reply to message #198353] |
Wed, 03 May 2006 15:59 |
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Jecht
Messages: 3156
Registered: September 2004
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars) |
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Well, assuming they aren't citizens....why are we compelled to give them the rights of citizens? Sure, I understand they all didn't go to work. Not a big deal. Let's see them all quit those jobs. To me, that would be a much stronger statement.
I heard an interesting thing on the radio today. A role reversal if you will. It was a letter sent to the DJ(No, it was WGRD FM, a rock station, not Rush Limbaugh or Hannity.) Anyways, in it, the letter stated that if we want to live down there(I know we wouldn't want to, but hear it out.) that we could just walk across the border, and take jobs that we were more qualified for. Also, we would get all of the citizenship benefits and not have to pay taxes, we would protest in the streets with the American Flag in hands and have our children go to their schools. What's more, they would have to learn english to adjust to us because we didn't want to learn spanish. Completely hypothetical, but at least it shows another perspective.
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| Re: The Immigration Issue [message #198657 is a reply to message #198596] |
Thu, 04 May 2006 11:42 |
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| luv2pb wrote on Wed, 03 May 2006 12:20 |
How do people who don't have the right to be here have the right to protest?
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Seriously, WTF man, what kind of crap is that, is everybody just forgeting the laws now, or do we just follow the laws that we find convinient.
Seriously people how can you fight a war on terrorism with all of your borders wide open!
The Goverment Has Failed All Of You.
Americas Founding Fathers Must Be Turing In Their Graves, As Well As Every Revolutionary, Every Soldier That Has Fought For This Great Country.
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| Re: The Immigration Issue [message #198710 is a reply to message #198614] |
Thu, 04 May 2006 21:24 |
mision08
Messages: 525
Registered: May 2005
Location: Cattle Drive, Dallas to F...
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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| gbull wrote on Wed, 03 May 2006 17:59 |
Well, assuming they aren't citizens....why are we compelled to give them the rights of citizens? Sure, I understand they all didn't go to work. Not a big deal. Let's see them all quit those jobs. To me, that would be a much stronger statement.
I heard an interesting thing on the radio today. A role reversal if you will. It was a letter sent to the DJ(No, it was WGRD FM, a rock station, not Rush Limbaugh or Hannity.) Anyways, in it, the letter stated that if we want to live down there(I know we wouldn't want to, but hear it out.) that we could just walk across the border, and take jobs that we were more qualified for. Also, we would get all of the citizenship benefits and not have to pay taxes, we would protest in the streets with the American Flag in hands and have our children go to their schools. What's more, they would have to learn english to adjust to us because we didn't want to learn spanish. Completely hypothetical, but at least it shows another perspective.
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Once again, I fail to see how this relates to the issue other than the first sentence. I believe anyone living in a foreign country, wants desperately to speak the native tongue. Surly, they wouldn't be so bold as to try and NOT learn it. This is the hypothetical? Cross from the US, into a poverty stricken crime infested third world country! Please. If it was the other way around, I wouldn't hesitate to get the hell out of Mexico.
I think the issue is purely a security driven one. We need to brand a all the citizens and have a giant roll call. Wipe the slate clean and then begin a full out lockdown and monitoring of humans in and out of the country. Much like all security programs, this will be impossible but you have to try. So, if you have God knows how many illegal immigrants living in Texas, Oklahoma, New Mexico, Arizona, and California can we afford to take a hard nose approach and force ALL ILLEGAL immigrants out. I don't think so. Not only does this affect Taco Bell, that everyone seems so worried about. What about the mortgage companies that have loaned money for business, homes and cars. Yes, illegal immigrants do somehow manage to get loans. Not to mention the actual FORCED exodus, and the problems that will cause, psychological, economical and diplomatic.
There are so many issues here that I can think of (look at Fleetseek's post) that I don't know.
Also unrelated, but lite hearted
True Greatness, and just a good human
The best finish, closest finish in the 50 year history of Winston Cup
Freddy Krueger music video
Harvester Of Sorrow, language of the mad
Johnny Cash & Bob Dylan A Thousand Miles Behind
Your own personal Jesus, someone to hear your prayers
Kyle's mom is a bitch
Johnny Cash Live @ San Quentin
Don't Y'all Think This Outlaw Bit's Done Got Out Of Hand?
[Updated on: Thu, 04 May 2006 21:47] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: The Immigration Issue [message #198932 is a reply to message #198710] |
Sun, 07 May 2006 14:38 |
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No Message Body
Seriously people how can you fight a war on terrorism with all of your borders wide open!
The Goverment Has Failed All Of You.
Americas Founding Fathers Must Be Turing In Their Graves, As Well As Every Revolutionary, Every Soldier That Has Fought For This Great Country.
[Updated on: Sun, 07 May 2006 14:41] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: The Immigration Issue [message #198934 is a reply to message #198710] |
Sun, 07 May 2006 14:39 |
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| mision08 wrote on Thu, 04 May 2006 23:24 |
| gbull wrote on Wed, 03 May 2006 17:59 |
Well, assuming they aren't citizens....why are we compelled to give them the rights of citizens? Sure, I understand they all didn't go to work. Not a big deal. Let's see them all quit those jobs. To me, that would be a much stronger statement.
I heard an interesting thing on the radio today. A role reversal if you will. It was a letter sent to the DJ(No, it was WGRD FM, a rock station, not Rush Limbaugh or Hannity.) Anyways, in it, the letter stated that if we want to live down there(I know we wouldn't want to, but hear it out.) that we could just walk across the border, and take jobs that we were more qualified for. Also, we would get all of the citizenship benefits and not have to pay taxes, we would protest in the streets with the American Flag in hands and have our children go to their schools. What's more, they would have to learn english to adjust to us because we didn't want to learn spanish. Completely hypothetical, but at least it shows another perspective.
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Once again, I fail to see how this relates to the issue other than the first sentence. I believe anyone living in a foreign country, wants desperately to speak the native tongue. Surly, they wouldn't be so bold as to try and NOT learn it. This is the hypothetical? Cross from the US, into a poverty stricken crime infested third world country! Please. If it was the other way around, I wouldn't hesitate to get the hell out of Mexico.
I think the issue is purely a security driven one. We need to brand a all the citizens and have a giant roll call. Wipe the slate clean and then begin a full out lockdown and monitoring of humans in and out of the country. Much like all security programs, this will be impossible but you have to try. So, if you have God knows how many illegal immigrants living in Texas, Oklahoma, New Mexico, Arizona, and California can we afford to take a hard nose approach and force ALL ILLEGAL immigrants out. I don't think so. Not only does this affect Taco Bell, that everyone seems so worried about. What about the mortgage companies that have loaned money for business, homes and cars. Yes, illegal immigrants do somehow manage to get loans. Not to mention the actual FORCED exodus, and the problems that will cause, psychological, economical and diplomatic.
There are so many issues here that I can think of (look at Fleetseek's post) that I don't know.
Also unrelated, but lite hearted
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They just don't try hard enough.
If they did they would be living the good life.
Then they won't be bothered, because they would be more productive to the USA.
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How can I remove the top reply, I deleted the body of the message, but how do I remove it completely? 
Seriously people how can you fight a war on terrorism with all of your borders wide open!
The Goverment Has Failed All Of You.
Americas Founding Fathers Must Be Turing In Their Graves, As Well As Every Revolutionary, Every Soldier That Has Fought For This Great Country.
[Updated on: Sun, 07 May 2006 14:44] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: The Immigration Issue [message #198958 is a reply to message #198353] |
Sun, 07 May 2006 19:34 |
mision08
Messages: 525
Registered: May 2005
Location: Cattle Drive, Dallas to F...
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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| Quote: |
They just don't try hard enough.
If they did they would be living the good life.
Then they won't be bothered, because they would be more productive to the USA.
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How can I remove the top reply, I deleted the body of the message, but how do I remove it completely?
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Who is "they", you are referring to? What task are "they" not trying hard enough at? Oh, "they" must be illegal immigrants. So, if "they" try harder, "they" will become citizens?
Be patient, and your mommy will come along and delete it for you.
True Greatness, and just a good human
The best finish, closest finish in the 50 year history of Winston Cup
Freddy Krueger music video
Harvester Of Sorrow, language of the mad
Johnny Cash & Bob Dylan A Thousand Miles Behind
Your own personal Jesus, someone to hear your prayers
Kyle's mom is a bitch
Johnny Cash Live @ San Quentin
Don't Y'all Think This Outlaw Bit's Done Got Out Of Hand?
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