Home » Renegade Discussions » Tactics and Strategies » Do "Point Whores" Hurt The Team?
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| Do "Point Whores" Hurt The Team? [message #197869] |
Wed, 26 April 2006 17:38  |
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m1a1_abrams
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Just curious what everyone else thinks about this. The usual defense of players who "point whore", is that they are helping the team by gaining points. While it's true that they gain points, if it's clear that the building you're attacking cannot be destroyed by you alone, you're also giving the enemy points by repairing. Granted, you receive more points for attacking than defending, but is it worth it over a short period of time?
Although there are exceptions, the enemy will usually have about as many Hotwires/Technicians repairing as you have vehicles attacking. It's only with vehicles that are particular powerful against buildings, like Mammoths or Stealth Tanks, that you can out-damage the Hotwires/Technicians fast enough for it to be noticeable. So most point whores will not actually be "tying up" the enemy team in repairs... at least not anymore than they are tying up themselves, by continuing to attack a buildng that they cannot destroy. If the enemy team is restriced to free Engineers then perhaps you could use point whoring more cleverly.
After having established that point whores rarely help the team effort in any other way than providing a gradual stream of points, then is it really worth it? You could lose by base destruction while most of the team is creating points lead that will be ultimately worthless. Even if it's clear that the game is unlikely to be decided by base destruction, point whoring may actually help the enemy team get back into the game. If you can safely attack buildings for the entire duration of a game, your team's score is bound to be way ahead of the enemy. That said, point whores may only get a few chances to attack buildings (chances that they will always take in a bid to be MVP), yet there may not be enough time for the net gain in attacking points vs repairing points to become obvious. If you can't point whore for long enough, you could keep the scores closer together than they should be. If the enemy is organised, they could mount a counter-attack to swings the points back in their favour, when they should have been too far behind. In that situation, if your team had stopped attacking the buildings and concentrated on destroying all enemy units attempting to retake the field, then you would be gaining points without giving any back.
Personally I don't think that simply gaining points is always the best way to help your team. Gaining points by attacking buildings is better than doing nothing at all, so in a sense you could argue that it's always helping the team... but depending on the situation, there are much better ways. Holding off from attacking buildings and laying siege to units leaving the base entrance can often be more effective at ensuring the victory, particularly over short periods of time. So if you are aware of this, yet continue to attack buildings that you can't destroy, regardless of the situation, then I'd say you're more interested in your own score than whether your team is victorious.
[Updated on: Wed, 26 April 2006 17:39] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Do "Point Whores" Hurt The Team? [message #197871 is a reply to message #197869] |
Wed, 26 April 2006 17:47  |
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Sniper_De7
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"point whoring" is a little vague. If, say, I was on the hill on hourglass, I could pointwhore and tell which tanks go where not to mention hold the hill and shoot at the hand all at the same time (or if i was Nod WF/Ref/PP) However, if it was say Under and I'm an APC I can get 4000+ points and the next person on my team could hardly manage over 500 points yet my team is still winning, without the near-unanswered points and the vehicles I destroyed, my team would be down 4000 points. It really just depends on the situation. In a game where base destruction generally never happens, every point can count. So a map like hourglass (if there wasn't hill camping, it just becomes a camp fest and who can get the most points off eachother) and that's usually what happens. Or if it's Under, a team usually can never base kill unless the other team really isn't that great. So like I said, every point can count. But if you're just wasting the vehicle limit away or if a teammate says that they're rushing so and so side and the person doesn't make any effort to do anything, that's where it gets more into interferring and wrong.
Oh, not to mention if you were guarding the enemy's warfactory/airstrip and keep them from buying vehicles, meanwhile shooting their building, that might be considered point-whoring but you're being useful. Though, if I'm on the airstrip my team would hardly ever buy tanks even though the fact that i'm preventing the enemy to buy vehicles is sort of key to winning so I'm basically doing it for nobody and it often messes up since no one actually comes to help.
Oderint, dum metuant.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. - Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
[Updated on: Wed, 26 April 2006 17:51] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Do "Point Whores" Hurt The Team? [message #197876 is a reply to message #197869] |
Wed, 26 April 2006 18:03 |
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m1a1_abrams
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I mean the kind of people who grab a vehicle and then go hit the closest building every game, with no intention to participate in team strategy. They defend themselves if attacked, then go back to attacking the closest building again.
What I'm wondering is whether or not it's true that the points gained by the kind of behaviour always helps the team, taking into account that the enemy receives a portion of those points in return. Surely there are many situations where, over a short period of time, shooting units to gain points would put your team further ahead than shooting buildings. You get more points from hitting buildings, but the enemy gets a lot of it back and it needs to build up over time to form a substantial points advantage. Like you say, often games come down to all the points you can get, but that goes for the enemy too. Wouldn't it be better, let's say, at the end of a close game, to go for less points but a larger lead over the enemy score?
Edit: This isn't meant to be a post against "point whoring" in all forms btw. I do it just as much as everyone else from time to time... besides which, it's not point whoring if you have a purpose other than points gain. People might accuse you of it though.
[Updated on: Wed, 26 April 2006 18:07] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Do "Point Whores" Hurt The Team? [message #197909 is a reply to message #197869] |
Wed, 26 April 2006 21:12 |
Homey
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One or two people pointwhoring all game is just fine, or everyone at the very end if you need to make up some points. All game long and everyone is just lame. A handful is good to keep the score close or hold the lead, but sometimes it's just excessive.
Homey
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| Re: Do "Point Whores" Hurt The Team? [message #197954 is a reply to message #197869] |
Thu, 27 April 2006 06:00 |
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m1a1_abrams
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Perhaps "point whoring" was a bad choice of words. I only used it because that's generally what the guys in the MRLS get called, but you could be a Havoc or an APC shooting vehicles. I meant people who shoot buildings exclusively. When it's clear that a game will definitely come down to points, that latter kind of point whoring doesn't really have a disadvantage. We all know it's cheap and lame, but the fact is that they aren't giving many points back to the enemy (if at all), while making huge gains.
I was thinking more about a guy on the cusp of MVP, driving his MRLS out to get a few last shots on the enemy buildings before the game ends. Since he's not going to have time for the points of attacking vs repairing to build up, the enemy will get at least half of the points straight back. That still puts your team ahead, so it's better than nothing. However, if you could have gotten more that half of those points you received in another way, you'll better secure the points victory. Killing a couple of Stealth Tanks, for example. If the whole team took this approach, I think games would end less close in score... although one guy killing a few tanks isn't going to do that much, with everything else going on around him.
[Updated on: Thu, 27 April 2006 06:06] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Do "Point Whores" Hurt The Team? [message #198027 is a reply to message #197869] |
Thu, 27 April 2006 23:45 |
mision08
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That is a sticky subject, and very tough to say. Although, I would never tell that person to stop. On a marathon game at walls, I was n00b'd for point whoring the Nod PP with a tank. I wasn't going to destroy the PP from outside their base by shelling. However, neither team had a ref and the credits I made funded (ion) the last rush to take their PP. Plus those bitches didn't have a tank and I did, so go jump a stump.
Very tough to say, but as you pointed out, they can be an asset and the difference between a win and a loss.
This falls along the lines of, when do you stop repairing a structure that the other team is shelling. I.E. the Hand on Field
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| Re: Do "Point Whores" Hurt The Team? [message #198044 is a reply to message #197954] |
Fri, 28 April 2006 06:52 |
MexPirate
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it depends on the map and size of the game imo. Large game with base defences its quite liekly that it will go down to points, then pointwhore ftw, if your gonna pointwhore best to do it properly though get a tech/arty and try to kill any units that come to move you. Arties pwn infantry if u can actually shoot and a tech can repair faster than any infantry can do damage - only real threat is a med tank and that all depends on the server (some servers you can repair faster than a med does damage, others the med will do more then u can repair - weird i know).
U can always use a camping vehicle to rush when the n00bs on ur team finally catch up with you and bring support out.
It's a mexican pirate .... F*ck a dog by Blink 182
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| Re: Do "Point Whores" Hurt The Team? [message #198051 is a reply to message #197869] |
Fri, 28 April 2006 09:21 |
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Dover
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Artys pwn infantry up close. At a distance, arty shots are a little too easy to dodge.
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
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| Re: Do "Point Whores" Hurt The Team? [message #198363 is a reply to message #198051] |
Mon, 01 May 2006 03:01 |
MexPirate
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When u take in to account the splash damage, the fact that 1v1 infantry cannot hurt a teched arty and the fact that the whole damn screen shakes when an arty is firing anyware near you - I am just as happy with the arty at long range tbh, although it does have major advantages over the MRLS at short range.
It's a mexican pirate .... F*ck a dog by Blink 182
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| Re: Do "Point Whores" Hurt The Team? [message #198388 is a reply to message #198363] |
Mon, 01 May 2006 08:28 |
puddle_splasher
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On the MP-servers it is actively encouraged. The "point whores", if, they are team players, are able to donate the credits earned back to the team.
This is of particular importance on the Hyper server, here you can purchase additional base defense turrets for 2000.
Having many turrets across the base entrance seroiusly discourages the enemy from getting too close. This also gives you the added benefit of buying the better characters.
However if everyone "point whores", then you sneak in tha back of the base and beacon them, seeing as they are looking after themselves.
On the whole, there is a time and a place for point whoring.
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| Re: Do "Point Whores" Hurt The Team? [message #198389 is a reply to message #197869] |
Mon, 01 May 2006 08:31 |
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Sniper_De7
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is that the server where you get absurd amounts of points for doing basically nothing, not to mention the increase in credits per second? where any person who plays renegade can just go in and get tons of points? All for the sake of making things "interesting" I suppose.
Oderint, dum metuant.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. - Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
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| Re: Do "Point Whores" Hurt The Team? [message #198392 is a reply to message #198363] |
Mon, 01 May 2006 08:48 |
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Dover
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| [BBF |
Pirate wrote on Mon, 01 May 2006 03:01]When u take in to account the splash damage, the fact that 1v1 infantry cannot hurt a teched arty and the fact that the whole damn screen shakes when an arty is firing anyware near you - I am just as happy with the arty at long range tbh, although it does have major advantages over the MRLS at short range.
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Splash damage is irrelivant if the artillery shell doesn't hit at the infantry's feet--a difficult feat at a large distance, and nothing any infantry can't dodge. Sniper fire, on the other hand, is undodgeable, same goes for PIC fire. An arty will even have trouble dodging a rocket from Gunner.
If the arty is teched, it's no longer 1v1, is it? Might as well give then infantry guy some Mammoth support to call it even.
The MLRS has the advantage of being able to shoot around corners. Useful on maps with base defense.
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
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[Updated on: Mon, 01 May 2006 08:49] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Do "Point Whores" Hurt The Team? [message #198393 is a reply to message #198392] |
Mon, 01 May 2006 08:51 |
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Sniper_De7
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I think he was talking about an arty could easily get out and repair himself. (Thus, if you wanted, you could just stay behind until he came closer)
Oderint, dum metuant.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. - Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
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| Re: Do "Point Whores" Hurt The Team? [message #198399 is a reply to message #197869] |
Mon, 01 May 2006 09:19 |
Tunaman
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Arty damage does some wierd stuff.. many times I've shot right at the feet of people and it has done no damage, and many times I've shot nowhere close to people and it has done crazy damage, so I guess its mostly just luck when you're relying on splash damage.
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| Re: Do "Point Whores" Hurt The Team? [message #198410 is a reply to message #198393] |
Mon, 01 May 2006 10:31 |
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Dover
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| Sniper_De7 wrote on Mon, 01 May 2006 08:51 |
I think he was talking about an arty could easily get out and repair himself. (Thus, if you wanted, you could just stay behind until he came closer)
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If such is the case, Havoc pwnz artys. He can lay down continual fire while approaching, forcing the tech to either keep repairing or lose the arty. A lone tech is just sniper fodder waiting to happen.
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
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| Re: Do "Point Whores" Hurt The Team? [message #198414 is a reply to message #198410] |
Mon, 01 May 2006 11:01 |
Tunaman
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| Dover wrote on Mon, 01 May 2006 13:31 |
If such is the case, Havoc pwnz artys. He can lay down continual fire while approaching, forcing the tech to either keep repairing or lose the arty. A lone tech is just sniper fodder waiting to happen.
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If its 1 vs 1 like you guys were saying, the havoc stands no chance.. The arty guy just has to shoot, repair back to full health(a technician repairs faster than a havoc can damage an arty), shoot, rinse, repeat.
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| Re: Do "Point Whores" Hurt The Team? [message #198419 is a reply to message #198414] |
Mon, 01 May 2006 11:26 |
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Dover
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| Ralphzehunter wrote on Mon, 01 May 2006 11:01 |
| Dover wrote on Mon, 01 May 2006 13:31 |
If such is the case, Havoc pwnz artys. He can lay down continual fire while approaching, forcing the tech to either keep repairing or lose the arty. A lone tech is just sniper fodder waiting to happen.
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If its 1 vs 1 like you guys were saying, the havoc stands no chance.. The arty guy just has to shoot, repair back to full health(a technician repairs faster than a havoc can damage an arty), shoot, rinse, repeat.
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The tech can fire, or he can repair, but he can't do both. If he doesn't repair, he loses the arty and has nothing to fire. If he doesn't fire, the arty gets stolen and he has nothing to repair. Either way;
Havoc > Arty
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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| Re: Do "Point Whores" Hurt The Team? [message #198435 is a reply to message #197869] |
Mon, 01 May 2006 13:01 |
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Sniper_De7
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How is it going to get stolen? The idea would be the havoc would have to get up close, which, as said, the arty would then proceed to kill it. by the time the havoc got say 20 feet from it, the havoc then has to shoot 7 times before it can kill it. (so it's probably like 7+ shots for the arty to kill the havoc, which isn't all that hard, not to mention that if the arty wanted he could repair for 61 points during the time the havoc is shooting at him and he'd have to wait for another reload. so the idea is, in a 1v1, there is no possible way for the havoc to win because it'd have to put c4 on it or steal it. (on capable of being up close) There's another way but it mostly relies on the terrain (shooting under the art)
Oh, and yes, the arty *can* shoot and repair at the same time. shoot till he's almost killing you, repair, repeat. (That's why it's probably a bad idea to buy a havoc alone on field for a 1v1 since the guy could just keep shooting the WF until it eventually dies.
Arty> havoc (for 1v1)
Oderint, dum metuant.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. - Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
[Updated on: Mon, 01 May 2006 13:02] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Do "Point Whores" Hurt The Team? [message #198493 is a reply to message #198435] |
Tue, 02 May 2006 02:43 |
MexPirate
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Thank god there are some people who actually know how to play this game. Took the words right out of my mouth
Arty (with tech driving) > Havoc every time.
Also worth noting that art/tech costs 800, Havoc costs 1000 - spending 800 on a Med would be a far far better and cheaper way of taking on the arty.
It's a mexican pirate .... F*ck a dog by Blink 182
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| Re: Do "Point Whores" Hurt The Team? [message #198502 is a reply to message #198435] |
Tue, 02 May 2006 05:33 |
w0dka
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| Sniper_De7 wrote on Mon, 01 May 2006 15:01 |
How is it going to get stolen? The idea would be the havoc would have to get up close, which, as said, the arty would then proceed to kill it. by the time the havoc got say 20 feet from it, the havoc then has to shoot 7 times before it can kill it. (so it's probably like 7+ shots for the arty to kill the havoc, which isn't all that hard, not to mention that if the arty wanted he could repair for 61 points during the time the havoc is shooting at him and he'd have to wait for another reload. so the idea is, in a 1v1, there is no possible way for the havoc to win because it'd have to put c4 on it or steal it. (on capable of being up close) There's another way but it mostly relies on the terrain (shooting under the art)
Oh, and yes, the arty *can* shoot and repair at the same time. shoot till he's almost killing you, repair, repeat. (That's why it's probably a bad idea to buy a havoc alone on field for a 1v1 since the guy could just keep shooting the WF until it eventually dies.
Arty> havoc (for 1v1)
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right,
not to mention that the havoc run out of ammunition !and! if he tries to get close he will get killed! experienced drivers can bodyshoot you with a ary in close range combat...or even headshot..so the Havoc dies damm quickly.
Thanks.
[Updated on: Tue, 02 May 2006 05:41] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Do "Point Whores" Hurt The Team? [message #198509 is a reply to message #197869] |
Tue, 02 May 2006 08:09 |
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Dover
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Yea, experianced drivers can headshot or bodyshot, assuming the Havoc does something stupid, like NOT push the "d" key for about half a second, which is enough to make the shot miss completely.
Pirate, I'm willing to test out this theory with you.
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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| Re: Do "Point Whores" Hurt The Team? [message #198528 is a reply to message #198514] |
Tue, 02 May 2006 11:36 |
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Dover
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| mrpirate wrote on Tue, 02 May 2006 09:05 |
provided you're close.
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| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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