Home » General Discussions » General Discussion » I need some advice
I need some advice [message #197048] |
Wed, 19 April 2006 20:49 ![Go to next message Go to next message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/down.png) |
![](http://renegadeforums.com/images/custom_avatars/8.png) |
Crimson
Messages: 7429 Registered: February 2003 Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
|
General (5 Stars) ADMINISTRATOR |
|
|
OK, so here's the story. I warn you, it's long:
So, this guy was caught several times UDP flooding my server and a few others. Ostensibly, he did so in order to get players on his server... you get dropped from a server, there's a chance you'll go look for another "more stable" server to play on. And of course the attacks were also a good retaliation for having more successful servers than he does.
So, after sufficient evidence (including packet logs and screen shots of servers he rented running a udp flooding application, as well as people he had confessed to coming forward), we consulted with Olaf about whether these infractions warranted an XWIS ban. (Seeing as how he was doing this to get traffic, he should not be rewarded with getting to KEEP any traffic he did get.)
So, Olaf agreed and a ban was placed on this server. To further hinder his server, we banned it from RenGuard (which makes sense since he was attacking the server that is frequently used by BHS to test and develop projects).
Immediately, the attacker himself (who we shall call "A") came to me and said he was quitting the community and leaving it in the hands of someone else (who we shall refer to as "B"). Over the next few days, "A" posted on Strike Team forums and sent private messages to Olaf and DonCarlo trying to get unbanned, calling his ban a personal attack from me. Of course, I value my position with Strike Team very highly and I wouldn't risk it on a personal matter, so Strike Team backed me up and I continue to be able to enforce this ban without risking my status there.
So, several hours after the initial ban, a server with the same name (description), host name, and settings appears on XWIS on a brand new IP. Of course, this community under "new owners" trying to bring the server back online is BLATANT ban evasion, and I placed a new ban on that IP as well. I purposely didn't ban the following 4 IPs which I was sure they were allocated, just to see if they'd be stupid enough to try to use a different IP again.
Over the next few days, we heard a lot from "A" (he even posted here ADMITTING to his illegal actions and begging for forgiveness) and heard rarely from "B". "A" insisted that he had nothing to do with this "new community" that supposedly spawned from the ashes of the community that was run by "A".
However, when a new individual who we shall call "C" showed up having admin access, IRCOp, etc, on the new community's site and servers, alarm bells went off. The player in the Renegade community who used the nickname "C" was a well-known cheater a while back and in fact had several n00bstories written about him, including a story from "A" himself. Upon further investigation, "B" and new co-admin "D" insisted to me that "C" and "A" were not the same person, even though it sure looked like they WERE the same person to everyone else.
So, somewhere in this time, the new server reappears on XWIS on an IP one number greater than the one I previously banned. The name is vague and different but the host name is the same. Of course, a second attempt at ban evasion signals me to put the ban back on that IP and the next 3 to (hopefully) cover the range of IPs they can use.
"B" and "D" come to me and ask what they can do to be allowed on XWIS, as they've spent all this money, etc. I tell them that everyone knows "C" is really "A" and they need to cut off ties with him. I specifically instructed them NOT to allow anyone else to have admin-level access to their forums and servers unless they definitely know them. At this point, they are acting like innocent victims of "A" duplicity and seem cooperative. Of course, you all know how soft-hearted I am, so I believed them and gave them another chance. They responded by posting logs of them firing "C", and "C" admits that he's really "A".
A few days pass, and another new name appears on the Admin list of their forums (I think they don't realize that ANY member can see this list) -- we will call this person "E". I ask "B" and "D" who this person "E" is and they give me the SAME STORY that they used to explain the existence of "C", back before they theoretically didn't know that "C" was actually "A". I told them to get rid of him, which they did (at least, they removed his access as an admin).
Of course, I am not convinced. Lots of evidence remains that "A" is still the main man and lead of this entire thing. Even worse, they are lying to everyone who visits their "server hosting company" by saying THEY have a 30,000 square foot data center, and that they "have been in business for over 10 years and have the experience and the know how to back it up." Even a complete idiot who emails their "sales department" can realize that they are actually just a reseller and don't have their own facility or any of the other facilities they claim as their own in "Atlanta, Chicago, Dallas, New York, San Francisco". ANYONE who actually has the stupidity to send these fools their money deserves to lose it.
So, to summarize, they have evaded their ban twice, and have lied to me several times. What should I do in this situation?
My choices:
1) Let them continue on. He did say he was sorry for UDP flooding after all.
2) Re-ban them and all their servers from XWIS for life.
I'm the bawss.
|
|
|
Re: I need some advice [message #197050 is a reply to message #197048] |
Wed, 19 April 2006 20:59 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/down.png) |
![](http://renegadeforums.com/images/custom_avatars/20867.jpg) |
Dover
Messages: 2547 Registered: March 2006 Location: Monterey, California
Karma: 0
|
General (2 Stars) |
|
|
Tough choice.
They fucked up. Many, many times. If I were in your shoes (And I'm not. The decision remains entirely yours), I'd let the have another chance. A lifetime ban from XWIS is pretty harsh. I would break down and cry like a little bitch if it happened to me.
But if A, B, C, D, or Q put even a toe out of line, give them the lifetime ban. He/She/They is/are (a) repeat offender(s). If they abuse your benevolence this time...well...
Again, that's my opinion. I think you should do what feels right.
DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 | Remember kids the internet is serious business.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: I need some advice [message #197066 is a reply to message #197057] |
Wed, 19 April 2006 23:14 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/down.png) |
Tunaman
Messages: 1189 Registered: January 2005
Karma: 2
|
General (1 Star) |
|
|
mrpirate wrote on Thu, 20 April 2006 01:01 | From the way you told the story it certainly seems as though they would abuse any more second chances given to them, so perhaps a ban is in order.
|
^^
It seems like they have already shown how they will act..
![http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/9055/tunamanlmao.png](http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/9055/tunamanlmao.png)
[Updated on: Wed, 19 April 2006 23:15] Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
Re: I need some advice [message #197068 is a reply to message #197048] |
Wed, 19 April 2006 23:35 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/down.png) |
![](http://renegadeforums.com/images/custom_avatars/4882.jpg) |
Goztow
Messages: 9734 Registered: March 2005 Location: Belgium
Karma: 13
|
General (5 Stars) Goztoe |
|
|
I agree with MrPirate.
They got many warnings and tried to bypass all of them. Only when they got to know that it didn't work, they agreed to settle. So basically if you give them another chance, they'll abuse it again until you enforce measures again.
Don't forget: server banned -> tried to bypass it 3 times
Person 'banned' from the community -> tried to bypass it 2 times
I would just give the server a ban and that's it. They can live without a server on xwis.
- the community can exist without having their own server which, by the looks of it, seems empty anyway most of the time
- they can host on gamespy
When people make a fool of you, you shouldn't have much mercy. I mean: he says he wanted more traffic to his server and that's why he UDP-flooded the other servers but who says this is the true and only reason for it? He actually assigned servers to udp-flood other servers.
OK, they might loose money from it but they damn well deserve it, considering they made other servers loose money.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
|
|
|
Re: I need some advice [message #197076 is a reply to message #197048] |
Wed, 19 April 2006 23:58 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/down.png) |
PackHunter
Messages: 487 Registered: November 2004 Location: Holland
Karma: 0
|
Commander |
|
|
Seeying what they did (over and over and over), these kids do not deserve a server. Hit them where it hurts (in their wallets). So I say ban them for life. Show them what they did will not be tollerated. Besides, by crashing other servers they tried to empty those servers that cost money too.
[Updated on: Thu, 20 April 2006 00:25] Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
|
Re: I need some advice [message #197078 is a reply to message #197048] |
Thu, 20 April 2006 00:59 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/down.png) |
![](http://renegadeforums.com/images/custom_avatars/20034.gif) |
xtaro
Messages: 87 Registered: September 2005 Location: Slightly left of insane
Karma: 0
|
Recruit |
![ollie_says](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/yahoo.png)
|
|
Make em Donate $30 for each logged instance.
You KNOW they would continue if they were not caught.
Oh and if One individual takes all teh blame its bullshit cuz everyone there knew what was occuring and they all are responsible.
[Updated on: Thu, 20 April 2006 01:01] Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
Re: I need some advice [message #197079 is a reply to message #197048] |
Thu, 20 April 2006 02:09 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/down.png) |
![](http://renegadeforums.com/images/custom_avatars/8.png) |
Crimson
Messages: 7429 Registered: February 2003 Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
|
General (5 Stars) ADMINISTRATOR |
|
|
I'm hoping that the people in question will read this story about your reactions. Then they will know they have used up their last chance (even more than I should have given them).
I'm the bawss.
[Updated on: Thu, 20 April 2006 02:09] Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
Re: I need some advice [message #197080 is a reply to message #197048] |
Thu, 20 April 2006 04:27 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/down.png) |
![](http://renegadeforums.com/images/custom_avatars/112.jpg) |
exnyte
Messages: 746 Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
|
Colonel |
|
|
A ban is a ban. Any way you look at it they are evading that ban and should continue to be banned. They've already gotten several second chances. This is more than they should have recieved. You are backed by XWIS for the first ban. Now if you don't continue banning them for evasion, that first ban is worthless.
American Cancer Society | Donate
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: I need some advice [message #197093 is a reply to message #197048] |
Thu, 20 April 2006 08:08 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/down.png) |
![](http://renegadeforums.com/images/custom_avatars/3415.gif) |
reborn
Messages: 3231 Registered: September 2004 Location: uk - london
Karma: 0
|
General (3 Stars) |
|
|
Your considering letting a bunch of lieing UDP flooders on XWIS?
Shame on you, be tougher for the rest of sake's if not your own.
|
|
|
Re: I need some advice [message #197095 is a reply to message #197048] |
Thu, 20 April 2006 08:23 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/down.png) |
Kanezor
Messages: 855 Registered: February 2005 Location: Sugar Land, TX, USA
Karma: 0
|
Colonel |
|
|
Crimson, you should remember that a DoS attack (eg, UDP flooding) is illegal in the United States, and I'd venture a guess that it's illegal in most other internet-competent countries. If the attacks came from multiple IPs, then it should be considered a DDoS. A DoS is an atrocious offense on the internet, second only to DDoS. It's akin to locking you in your own home, boarding it up, and then pulling all utility connections (water, power, phone). You have no way of contacting anyone that you are going to starve.
I wouldn't consider having aliases as an offense. But using the aliases to get around set laws (eg, bans) is, though not as bad as a DoS attack. But really, if person 'A' is paying for the server, then what right do you have to say whether or not he can be an admin? You do have every right to prevent him from attacking your own server(s). Will an XWIS ban really prevent that? Has he attacked only servers that are listed on XWIS, or has he also attacked servers listed exclusively on GSA as well?
How do you know that if you ban his server's IP from XWIS, that he won't just lease a different subnet from his server's host, or that he won't even change hosts completely?
In all, the question isn't whether or not you should keep the ban. If he has broken a rule to connect to XWIS, then you follow Olaf's judgement (and since (as far as I know) there's an agreement between Olaf and yourself to allow you to moderate the Renegade part of XWIS, your own judgement). If he repeatedly breaks XWIS' rules, then you take it up with EA.
---
![http://www.eve-online.com/download/banners/files/468x60_02.jpg](http://www.eve-online.com/download/banners/files/468x60_02.jpg)
|
|
|
Re: I need some advice [message #197098 is a reply to message #197095] |
Thu, 20 April 2006 08:59 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/down.png) |
![](http://renegadeforums.com/images/custom_avatars/8.png) |
Crimson
Messages: 7429 Registered: February 2003 Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
|
General (5 Stars) ADMINISTRATOR |
|
|
Kanezor wrote on Thu, 20 April 2006 08:23 | I wouldn't consider having aliases as an offense. But using the aliases to get around set laws (eg, bans) is, though not as bad as a DoS attack. But really, if person 'A' is paying for the server, then what right do you have to say whether or not he can be an admin?
|
Since "A" is the attacker, we decided to ban "A" from ever having a server on XWIS. I only allowed the "company" to have a server on XWIS again because they SAID they got rid of him. If he's still an admin and still calling the shots, then he has a server on XWIS in spite of the punishment set forth. I never revoked the ban on this individual.
Quote: | You do have every right to prevent him from attacking your own server(s). Will an XWIS ban really prevent that? Has he attacked only servers that are listed on XWIS, or has he also attacked servers listed exclusively on GSA as well?
|
The ban is not to prevent him from attacking. The ban is a removal of privileges as punishment for said attacks. I would sooner have more success paying someone to inflict physical harm on him than I could actually get the law against him. Therefore, this is an punishment I *can* inflict that teaches him that such acts are not to be tolerated.
Quote: | How do you know that if you ban his server's IP from XWIS, that he won't just lease a different subnet from his server's host, or that he won't even change hosts completely?
|
1) He's not very bright.
2) The effort it takes him to get a new IP is a lot more than the effort it takes me to add his new IP to his existing ban.
Quote: | In all, the question isn't whether or not you should keep the ban. If he has broken a rule to connect to XWIS, then you follow Olaf's judgement (and since (as far as I know) there's an agreement between Olaf and yourself to allow you to moderate the Renegade part of XWIS, your own judgement). If he repeatedly breaks XWIS' rules, then you take it up with EA.
|
Yes, it IS in fact against XWIS rules to flood other players and servers. That is why Olaf agreed to the original ban.
I'm the bawss.
|
|
|
Re: I need some advice [message #197107 is a reply to message #197048] |
Thu, 20 April 2006 10:34 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/down.png) |
![](http://renegadeforums.com/images/custom_avatars/20262.jpg) |
PlastoJoe
Messages: 647 Registered: October 2005
Karma: 0
|
Colonel |
|
|
If I were you, I might consider giving B and D another chance...
BUT
they've already let him into theirs twice and they're lying to everyone else who visits their site. I doubt they'll stop (you even said, A isn't very smart and if he's the ringleader it's unlikely that B and D are much smarter) and I think that even though only fools would send them money, the most responsible thing to do is get rid of them so they can't screw other people. After all, there are a lot of people who, through no fault of their own, wouldn't be able to put 2 and 2 together and figure them out; they don't all know the background of this situation.
Even if they weren't lying to you, they're still scam artists. Would you boot them for that?
![http://qntm.org/files/board/current.png](http://qntm.org/files/board/current.png)
You may be a fundamentalist atheist if...
Toggle Spoiler
Blazer wrote on Fri, 04 August 2006 18:53 | If you wanna be a badass ex-marine law enforcment game programmer college graduate, then you can be! I'm just glad we don't see the other part of you where you join AOL chat rooms as "hotchik69" and cyber with guys while you spank off into a sock and then cry yourself to sleep on your cock-shaped pillow.
|
tzarmind wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 20:52 | Not only did you immaturely edit what J_Ball said in your quote. But you fucking got in the irony truck and drove it straight off a cliff.
|
Canadacdn wrote on Tue, 23 October 2007 12:04 | California burns down every year. I think it's part of nature's cycle.
|
|
|
|
Re: I need some advice [message #197109 is a reply to message #197048] |
Thu, 20 April 2006 10:54 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/down.png) |
flyingfox
Messages: 1612 Registered: February 2003 Location: scotland, uk
Karma: 0
|
General (1 Star) |
|
|
He might have apologised, but he wouldn't have if he didn't have to (i.e. if you weren't able to find out he had a new server on XWIS). Yes, these people seem like typical scam artists. I don't think any of them deserve to be on XWIS again without a sincere apology, $50 payment and expensive bottle of wine sent to you. They should also pay back the people who sent money to them.
[Updated on: Thu, 20 April 2006 10:55] Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
Re: I need some advice [message #197116 is a reply to message #197048] |
Thu, 20 April 2006 11:28 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/down.png) |
![](http://renegadeforums.com/images/custom_avatars/20867.jpg) |
Dover
Messages: 2547 Registered: March 2006 Location: Monterey, California
Karma: 0
|
General (2 Stars) |
|
|
Actually, I've reconsidered.
Ban "A" for life. If he wants to play more Xwis, he can get a new IP.
Edit: Next time I should read the rest of the posts... Good job Crimson.
DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 | Remember kids the internet is serious business.
|
[Updated on: Thu, 20 April 2006 11:29] Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
Re: I need some advice [message #197131 is a reply to message #197098] |
Thu, 20 April 2006 12:37 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/down.png) |
Kanezor
Messages: 855 Registered: February 2005 Location: Sugar Land, TX, USA
Karma: 0
|
Colonel |
|
|
Crimson wrote on Thu, 20 April 2006 10:59 |
Kanezor wrote on Thu, 20 April 2006 08:23 | I wouldn't consider having aliases as an offense. But using the aliases to get around set laws (eg, bans) is, though not as bad as a DoS attack. But really, if person 'A' is paying for the server, then what right do you have to say whether or not he can be an admin?
|
Since "A" is the attacker, we decided to ban "A" from ever having a server on XWIS. I only allowed the "company" to have a server on XWIS again because they SAID they got rid of him. If he's still an admin and still calling the shots, then he has a server on XWIS in spite of the punishment set forth. I never revoked the ban on this individual.
Quote: | You do have every right to prevent him from attacking your own server(s). Will an XWIS ban really prevent that? Has he attacked only servers that are listed on XWIS, or has he also attacked servers listed exclusively on GSA as well?
|
The ban is not to prevent him from attacking. The ban is a removal of privileges as punishment for said attacks. I would sooner have more success paying someone to inflict physical harm on him than I could actually get the law against him. Therefore, this is an punishment I *can* inflict that teaches him that such acts are not to be tolerated.
Quote: | In all, the question isn't whether or not you should keep the ban. If he has broken a rule to connect to XWIS, then you follow Olaf's judgement (and since (as far as I know) there's an agreement between Olaf and yourself to allow you to moderate the Renegade part of XWIS, your own judgement). If he repeatedly breaks XWIS' rules, then you take it up with EA.
|
Yes, it IS in fact against XWIS rules to flood other players and servers. That is why Olaf agreed to the original ban.
|
All of the above warrants an extended ban, if not a lifelong one. It is rather sad that you have to ban their whole server to get rid of the one person, though.
Crimson wrote on Thu, 20 April 2006 10:59 |
Quote: | How do you know that if you ban his server's IP from XWIS, that he won't just lease a different subnet from his server's host, or that he won't even change hosts completely?
|
1) He's not very bright.
2) The effort it takes him to get a new IP is a lot more than the effort it takes me to add his new IP to his existing ban.
| Remember that if he changes to a different host which hosts several game servers behind a single IP, then you would end up banning all of those game servers. That is, if he isn't already using such a host.
---
![http://www.eve-online.com/download/banners/files/468x60_02.jpg](http://www.eve-online.com/download/banners/files/468x60_02.jpg)
|
|
|
Re: I need some advice [message #197132 is a reply to message #197048] |
Thu, 20 April 2006 12:47 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to next message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/down.png) |
![](http://renegadeforums.com/images/custom_avatars/8.png) |
Crimson
Messages: 7429 Registered: February 2003 Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
|
General (5 Stars) ADMINISTRATOR |
|
|
Well, he deserves that. If I let his customers online then he's still benefitting from the profit from them.
I'm the bawss.
|
|
|
|
Re: I need some advice [message #197135 is a reply to message #197133] |
Thu, 20 April 2006 13:06 ![Go to previous message Go to previous message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/up.png) ![Go to next message Go to previous message](/theme/Renegade_Forums/images/down.png) |
PackHunter
Messages: 487 Registered: November 2004 Location: Holland
Karma: 0
|
Commander |
|
|
j_ball430 wrote on Thu, 20 April 2006 15:53 | You unban them, you're opening yourself up for more problems. Regardless of what they say, how much they apologize, or how kind they may act. People don't suddenly change, especially after a ban. They'll do/say whatever they can to get around the ban if it's for something they are interested in. You go soft on one person, and you'll be asked to continue to be soft for others.
|
Exactly. In my experience, when you ban someone, they will ALL lie to get themselves unbanned.
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
Current Time: Wed Aug 21 02:45:34 MST 2024
Total time taken to generate the page: 0.01165 seconds
|