Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » Hydrogen Fuel Cell, Electric Cars
| Hydrogen Fuel Cell, Electric Cars [message #189565] |
Sat, 11 February 2006 20:24  |
mision08
Messages: 525
Registered: May 2005
Location: Cattle Drive, Dallas to F...
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Colonel |
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As Herbert Simon wrote in Computers, Communications and the Public Interest in 1971, "What information consumes is rather obvious: it consumes the attention of its recipients. Hence a wealth of information creates a poverty of attention, and a need to allocate that attention efficiently among the overabundance of information sources that might consume it."
Amen to that,
All the major automobile manufacturers involved in this movement.
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| Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell, Electric Cars [message #189566 is a reply to message #189565] |
Sat, 11 February 2006 21:00  |
Apache
Messages: 185
Registered: February 2003
Location: Fort McMurray, AB, Ca
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Personally, being a rabid car fan, I think that hydrogen is totally the wrong direction to be taking. It requires massive rebuilding of infastructure, and is actually VERY dangerous too. Hydrogen gas is extremely explosive, and I definitely wouldn't want to be sitting on a tank of it!
The right course of action they need to take is ethanol, and bio-diesel.
Ethanol is very easy to produce, and runs just as well as gasoline does. The only infastructure, and engine changes required to run ethanol is to replace aluminum fuel rails with stainless steel, injectors with ethanol compliant versions, rubber fuel lines with Teflon inside coated rubber lines, and a stainless steel fuel tank.
The only reasons for these changes is becuase being an alcohol, Ethanol is corrosive, and will eat through aluminum, rubber, and plastics.
With these changes, a guy can run 100% ethanol on any current V8 gasoline engine. Ethanol burns extremely clean, producing basically no CO, nor oxides. Infact, Ethanol is the fuel of choice for top fuel dragsters. Ethanol is a high octane fuel, which would allow automakers to make very high performance engines, and still get better emissions than current engines do.
It'd be very cheap to switch all vehicles over to ethanol, as compared to switching to hydrogen, it'd also provide farmers with work, and wean North America off of it's oil additction.
Infact, much of Brazil already runs ethanol vehicles!
Bio-diesel is also another very good fuel to use. It can be run in any mechanically injected diesel engine with no modifications to the engine, or in any electronically injected diesel engine with very minor sensor / chip changes. Again, a far cleaner burning fuel than petro diesel, and it is produced from waste oil, or fresh clean oil too. It'd give all the restaurants something to do with their grease, again give the farmers something to grow, and again, just as importantly, wean North America off petrol oil.
There is absolutely no reason why we need to be running oil, or spending billions trying to get Hydrogen working. We've got tried and true solutions right now, that could be cheaply, and easily implemented to replace petrol fuels.
Oh, and did I mention just how CHEAP ethanol and biodiesel would be if they were mass produced? I'm talking like .15 cents a gallon of home made biodiesel cheap 
And yes, I know all this works cause I run a bio-diesel rig myself. Its an old Chevy 6.2 diesel with a 6.5 turbo slapped on it. Run it on bio-diesel made from Canola that local farmers give to me for free (go ask for a truck box full from every farmer in the area, and you can wind up with a LOT of canola, lol) and yeah, she may smell a bit like McDonalds, but the truck runs just as well if not better than it did on dino oil, and is very cheap.
Only dissadvantage to these fuels is in cold weather situations such as here in Canada, below -10C, neither Ethanol, or Bio-Diesel remain in a liquid form, and gel up. I imagine some minor reasearch could easily turn up an additive to keep that from happening though 
- Russell
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| Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell, Electric Cars [message #189571 is a reply to message #189565] |
Sat, 11 February 2006 21:48 |
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One problem with ethanol and bio-diesel and such is that if everyone started using it, could we produce enough crops to satisfy both the demand for food AND the demand for fuel?
Jonathan Wilson aka Jonwil
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| Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell, Electric Cars [message #189573 is a reply to message #189565] |
Sat, 11 February 2006 22:18 |
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csskiller
Messages: 522
Registered: April 2004
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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More plants = less CO2 in the air
More plants = more fertilizers needed = more polluted water = bad for Earth's ecology
Unless of course fertilizers aren't needed, but they're almost always used.
When history witnesses a great change, Razgriz reveals itself,
First as a dark demon,
As a demon it uses its power to reign death upon the land;
and then it dies.
However, after a period of slumber, Razgriz returns.
This time as a great hero...
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| Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell, Electric Cars [message #189574 is a reply to message #189565] |
Sat, 11 February 2006 22:32 |
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@Ethanol: That's not the only problem, Ethanol is far from being a global solution, considering the whole climate change factor and such. You can't really rely on something that relies on something that's getting more and more unstable over the years.
@Hydrogen: Yeah, but liquid Hydrogen (nobody said anything about using its gas form) isn't unstable. Driving a vehicle that's powered by liquid Hydrogen is just as dangerous as driving one that's powered by either gasoline or diesel.
@csskiller: Pesticides are more of an issue.
FUCK
[Updated on: Sat, 11 February 2006 22:36] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell, Electric Cars [message #189584 is a reply to message #189574] |
Sun, 12 February 2006 00:37 |
Homey
Messages: 1084
Registered: February 2003
Location: Canada
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General (1 Star) |
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| Comrade wrote on Sun, 12 February 2006 00:32 |
@Ethanol: That's not the only problem, Ethanol is far from being a global solution, considering the whole climate change factor and such. You can't really rely on something that relies on something that's getting more and more unstable over the years.
@Hydrogen: Yeah, but liquid Hydrogen (nobody said anything about using its gas form) isn't unstable. Driving a vehicle that's powered by liquid Hydrogen is just as dangerous as driving one that's powered by either gasoline or diesel.
@csskiller: Pesticides are more of an issue.
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It isn't a global solution, hydrogen will be the future regardless imo. It burns clean as you get and is quite powerful. They just need to learn how to harness it properly.
Homey
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| Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell, Electric Cars [message #189603 is a reply to message #189565] |
Sun, 12 February 2006 09:31 |
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SuperFlyingEngi
Messages: 1756
Registered: November 2003
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=1518556
Too bad the U.S. government is influenced by big industry, or else we'd be making obvious choices, too.
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
"The danger to political dissent is acute where the Government attempts to act under so vague a concept as the power to protect "domestic security." Given the difficulty of defining the domestic security interest, the danger of abuse in acting to protect that interest becomes apparent. --U.S. Supreme Court decision (407 U.S. 297 (1972)
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| Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell, Electric Cars [message #189607 is a reply to message #189574] |
Sun, 12 February 2006 09:53 |
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csskiller
Messages: 522
Registered: April 2004
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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| Comrade wrote on Sat, 11 February 2006 23:32 |
@csskiller: Pesticides are more of an issue.
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Yes, you are quite correct.
When history witnesses a great change, Razgriz reveals itself,
First as a dark demon,
As a demon it uses its power to reign death upon the land;
and then it dies.
However, after a period of slumber, Razgriz returns.
This time as a great hero...
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| Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell, Electric Cars [message #189664 is a reply to message #189574] |
Sun, 12 February 2006 18:20 |
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Javaxcx
Messages: 1943
Registered: February 2003
Location: Canada, eh?
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| Comrade wrote on Sun, 12 February 2006 00:32 |
@Hydrogen: Yeah, but liquid Hydrogen (nobody said anything about using its gas form) isn't unstable. Driving a vehicle that's powered by liquid Hydrogen is just as dangerous as driving one that's powered by either gasoline or diesel.
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The problem with liquid hydrogen is twofold. You can either pressurize the hydrogen to the point where there is so much pressure that the molecules break down and become a liquid. The alternative is somehow supercooling a tank to hundreds of degrees below 0C to make a liquid. Both solutions are very inefficient and potentially dangerous.
The only solution I can see to a hydrogen gas tank is having an outer chamber around it containing a chemical to react with hydrogen into a stable compound long before a combustion reaction can occur.
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Read the FUD Rules before you come in and make an ass of yourself.
All your base are belong to us.
You have no chance to survive make your time.
[Updated on: Sun, 12 February 2006 18:20] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell, Electric Cars [message #189699 is a reply to message #189566] |
Sun, 12 February 2006 23:30 |
mision08
Messages: 525
Registered: May 2005
Location: Cattle Drive, Dallas to F...
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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| Apache wrote on Sat, 11 February 2006 22:00 |
Personally, being a rabid car fan, I think that hydrogen is totally the wrong direction to be taking. It requires massive rebuilding of infastructure, and is actually VERY dangerous too. Hydrogen gas is extremely explosive, and I definitely wouldn't want to be sitting on a tank of it!
The right course of action they need to take is ethanol, and bio-diesel.
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A hydrogen bomb was the first thing I thought of before I saw the 10,000 psi Tank... DANGER. I was told that bio diesel was the new thing to look forward to. Hydrogen fuel cells took me by surprise, and I am completely ignorant on the subject. I am however, from a racing family and methanol is a big player in the modified series. The biggest concern with methanol is the amount of fuel consumed by the engine.
I think this may be a concern with ethanol as well.
the bed to Gold Digger is sang by Ray Charles, not Jamie Fox
True Greatness, and just a good human
The best finish, closest finish in the 50 year history of Winston Cup
Freddy Krueger music video
Harvester Of Sorrow, language of the mad
Johnny Cash & Bob Dylan A Thousand Miles Behind
Your own personal Jesus, someone to hear your prayers
Kyle's mom is a bitch
Johnny Cash Live @ San Quentin
Don't Y'all Think This Outlaw Bit's Done Got Out Of Hand?
[Updated on: Sun, 12 February 2006 23:35] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell, Electric Cars [message #190500 is a reply to message #189565] |
Sun, 19 February 2006 16:39 |
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csskiller
Messages: 522
Registered: April 2004
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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lawn mowers are up there for being the worst as well, but I'm not saying to throw out your mowers, and get out the manual one 
When history witnesses a great change, Razgriz reveals itself,
First as a dark demon,
As a demon it uses its power to reign death upon the land;
and then it dies.
However, after a period of slumber, Razgriz returns.
This time as a great hero...
[Updated on: Sun, 19 February 2006 16:40] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Hydrogen Fuel Cell, Electric Cars [message #191635 is a reply to message #189638] |
Thu, 02 March 2006 06:09 |
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| Jaspah wrote on Sun, 12 February 2006 16:20 |
What the fuck is the point of electric or hydrogen vehicle when they're almosts two times the price of standard gasoline automobiles.
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If everyone uses that, the prices won't be so expensive.
It's the network effect. (-> economic theory)
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