Home » General Discussions » General Discussion » The 5 Phases of RenGuard users
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| Re: The 5 Phases of RenGuard users [message #184298 is a reply to message #184260] |
Sat, 31 December 2005 11:37   |
=HT=T-Bird
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Registered: June 2005
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| light wrote on Sat, 31 December 2005 04:42 |
But how does that effect me? With or without RG i'm still clean as a whistle, and i'd hope to be tested even if I was running it.
RG does have its uses, it stops the cheats that don't know how to attempt a decent bypass (or where to find one), the first-timers and the n00b bighead users, and for that i'm appreciative, but when servers swear by it and require no other forms of determining if they're cheat-free, then you end up without a filter in your fridge.
Thats the argument i'm trying to put forward, not that RG is totally useless, but that it can't prove a person totally innocent.
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I think you and Crimson are getting at the same thing  RG does an excellent job stopping bigheads, damage h4x, and even that pest known as right click...but it has its weaknesses too...RG status, a well-taken set of SS, and the lack of anything fishy in the statistics (9 kills against GOOD advanced inf in 15 seconds w/ a Minigunner = pretty obvious damage h4x) should prove someone innocent of everything short of a VERY devious aimbot...P.S. Crimson, when will RG get the ability to scan for external hack programs such as aimbots?
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| Re: The 5 Phases of RenGuard users [message #184300 is a reply to message #184298] |
Sat, 31 December 2005 12:02 |
Cobalt
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Why do you always use comparisons lol, The fact is this isn't getting onto a flight, this isnt risking anyone real harm, You take it way!!!!! to seriously!, Its a game yes, and it is annoying when cheaters ruin your game, But With RG or NOT they will still be able to ruin the game. Mods and admins can deal with it when they are ingame, if they're not !forcerg is as much use as !votekick. Things get blown so out of proportion here!
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| Re: The 5 Phases of RenGuard users [message #184305 is a reply to message #184249] |
Sat, 31 December 2005 12:24 |
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Renx
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General (2 Stars)
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| light wrote on Sat, 31 December 2005 03:55 |
| Renx wrote on Sat, 31 December 2005 19:28 |
Tests won't even detect half of the current cheats out there. Explain to me how you test for a damage mod that only uses the alternate fire,
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Scoped SS.
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That's great and all, but what about the other 20 or so weapons in the game? It could only be the pistol's secondary fire that does massive damage. Very little damage mods would probably use the sniper rifle or ramjet because of your little test.
Lets say their was a damage mod ingame. There are also 24 RG users, and 8 non-RG users. There's nothing that says for sure that the cheater cannot be one of the RG users, but it is 99% likely that the cheater will be one of those non-RG users. This is the point of RG. Would you rather see 32 potential cheaters, or 8 potential cheaters? It allows the mods to do their job and get to the game as quickly and easily as possible.
Even if you did fail to find the cheater in the group of non-RG users, there's nothing stopping you from then moving on and checking the RG users. This method is still far efficient then your "suspect all, check all" method.
Let's even throw your position into the barrrel. You are one of the 8 non-RG players. You know you're not cheating. If you were using RG that would mean there'd be 25 RG users, and then only 7 non-rg players. No other statistics change, it is still 99% likely that one of these players is the cheater. The mods now only have 7 players to check, making their job easier. If the cheater isn't found there, then lucky you, you still get your test anyway!
The bottom line is you are knowingly, and effective making the job of the mods/admins harder in every server you play in. You're slapping them in the face when they try to make your game more enjoyable.
~Canucck
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| Re: The 5 Phases of RenGuard users [message #184307 is a reply to message #184305] |
Sat, 31 December 2005 12:33 |
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almor999
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| Renx wrote on Sat, 31 December 2005 14:24 |
| light wrote on Sat, 31 December 2005 03:55 |
| Renx wrote on Sat, 31 December 2005 19:28 |
Tests won't even detect half of the current cheats out there. Explain to me how you test for a damage mod that only uses the alternate fire,
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Scoped SS.
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That's great and all, but what about the other 20 or so weapons in the game? It could only be the pistol's secondary fire that does massive damage. Very little damage mods would probably use the sniper rifle or ramjet because of your little test.
Lets say their was a damage mod ingame. There are also 24 RG users, and 8 non-RG users. There's nothing that says for sure that the cheater cannot be one of the RG users, but it is 99% likely that the cheater will be one of those non-RG users. This is the point of RG. Would you rather see 32 potential cheaters, or 8 potential cheaters? It allows the mods to do their job and get to the game as quickly and easily as possible.
Even if you did fail to find the cheater in the group of non-RG users, there's nothing stopping you from then moving on and checking the RG users. This method is still far efficient then your "suspect all, check all" method.
Let's even throw your position into the barrrel. You are one of the 8 non-RG players. You know you're not cheating. If you were using RG that would mean there'd be 25 RG users, and then only 7 non-rg players. No other statistics change, it is still 99% likely that one of these players is the cheater. The mods now only have 7 players to check, making their job easier. If the cheater isn't found there, then lucky you, you still get your test anyway!
The bottom line is you are knowingly, and effective making the job of the mods/admins harder in every server you play in. You're slapping them in the face when they try to make your game more enjoyable.
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He only plays in servers he is an admin/mod on so that does not apply to him.
A lot of you do not seem to understand his point. He is not trying to discredit RenGuard. His problem is with a lot of renegade players(including some moderators) who believe anyone running RG cannot cheat and anyone not running it, is cheating.
He has said that RG does stop the majority of cheaters, but like punkbuster and other anti-cheat programs it is not perfect. The only reason RG hasn't been bypassed more is because the renegade community is small and does not have a lot of people with the skills to bypass it.
Some people cannot run it due to technical problems and others will not run it because they do not want a third party monitoring them.
Most cheaters can be caught easily, sometimes it is really obvious, sometimes a test will tell you if they are cheating but bots come in really handy. SSAOW plus a bot will tell you all kills, who destroyed vehicles and with what and a lot more. I believe that at one time Adad had a addon for CloudyServ that would alert you if someone did more damage then should be possible.
[Updated on: Sat, 31 December 2005 12:46] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: The 5 Phases of RenGuard users [message #184323 is a reply to message #184305] |
Sat, 31 December 2005 14:36 |
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light
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| Renx wrote on Sun, 01 January 2006 08:24 |
| light wrote on Sat, 31 December 2005 03:55 |
| Renx wrote on Sat, 31 December 2005 19:28 |
Tests won't even detect half of the current cheats out there. Explain to me how you test for a damage mod that only uses the alternate fire,
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Scoped SS.
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That's great and all, but what about the other 20 or so weapons in the game? It could only be the pistol's secondary fire that does massive damage. Very little damage mods would probably use the sniper rifle or ramjet because of your little test.
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Well for that we just have to rely on the moderators.
| Renx wrote on Sat, 31 December 2005 19:28 |
Lets say their was a damage mod ingame. There are also 24 RG users, and 8 non-RG users. There's nothing that says for sure that the cheater cannot be one of the RG users, but it is 99% likely that the cheater will be one of those non-RG users. This is the point of RG. Would you rather see 32 potential cheaters, or 8 potential cheaters? It allows the mods to do their job and get to the game as quickly and easily as possible.
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Why not just find the name of the person? People will usually shout out xxxxxxx is cheating, so you focus on them.
| Renx wrote on Sat, 31 December 2005 19:28 |
Even if you did fail to find the cheater in the group of non-RG users, there's nothing stopping you from then moving on and checking the RG users. This method is still far efficient then your "suspect all, check all" method.
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What makes you think i'd test every player in the server? I test the one accused if the accusation was valid.
| Renx wrote on Sat, 31 December 2005 19:28 |
Let's even throw your position into the barrrel. You are one of the 8 non-RG players. You know you're not cheating. If you were using RG that would mean there'd be 25 RG users, and then only 7 non-rg players. No other statistics change, it is still 99% likely that one of these players is the cheater. The mods now only have 7 players to check, making their job easier. If the cheater isn't found there, then lucky you, you still get your test anyway!
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They have 1 player to check. Player goes !rg light and there is your suspected cheat.
| Renx wrote on Sat, 31 December 2005 19:28 |
The bottom line is you are knowingly, and effective making the job of the mods/admins harder in every server you play in. You're slapping them in the face when they try to make your game more enjoyable.
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I play in servers I mod/admin as much as possible. The others I try to know the hosts/admins. Failing that, I can play in other servers and show people that non-RG players don't all cheat.
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| Re: The 5 Phases of RenGuard users [message #184335 is a reply to message #184323] |
Sat, 31 December 2005 15:42 |
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ben5015se
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| light wrote on Sat, 31 December 2005 16:36 |
I play in servers I mod/admin as much as possible. The others I try to know the hosts/admins. Failing that, I can play in other servers and show people that non-RG players don't all cheat.
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its funny becouse its true, well ..there are a couple of non rg users that cheat, but iv only seen one person and that was on my cnr server..
but i bet there are more cheaters bypassing rengaurd then there are not using rengaurd
i hate crimson, i hate lardass.
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| Re: The 5 Phases of RenGuard users [message #184339 is a reply to message #184335] |
Sat, 31 December 2005 16:26 |
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Sniper_De7
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| ben5015se wrote on Sat, 31 December 2005 17:42 |
| light wrote on Sat, 31 December 2005 16:36 |
I play in servers I mod/admin as much as possible. The others I try to know the hosts/admins. Failing that, I can play in other servers and show people that non-RG players don't all cheat.
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its funny becouse its true, well ..there are a couple of non rg users that cheat, but iv only seen one person and that was on my cnr server..
but i bet there are more cheaters bypassing rengaurd then there are not using rengaurd
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Dead wrong. I've seen at LEAST 5 cheaters on non-rg servers in the past week and they all didn't have renguard. Number of cheaters I've seen using Renguard in the past 2 months? 0. I doubt you've seen over 1 person using renguard that was cheating. Not that i really know your judgement on cheating either; you could think i was cheating when i wasn't. I've done some pretty messed up things that could easily pass as what a cheater can do (ie pistoling a gdi soldier 4x in a row when he's dodging) it's only logic that there would be more people cheating without RG than people with it.
Anyways, a moderator would still ask you "why you don't install renguard" and since you have no real reason not to, it look suspiciuos since you have absolutely nothing to lose by getting it. I still don't see why not using RG helps moderators check people that are running RG so that's not an excuse to not use RG. I mean the same moderators that test when you don't have RG, how do you know they wouldn't when you're not using renguard.. it would be two seperate times. not that it matters since you don't even have renguard installed so you don't know if moderators would check you if you had renguard installed. Pretty much most of the servers i've all been tested and i've had renguard. So to say that moderators never check rg users is wrong. In fact.. most, if not, all cases where a person said i was cheating i was tested.
Oderint, dum metuant.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. - Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
[Updated on: Sat, 31 December 2005 16:31] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: The 5 Phases of RenGuard users [message #184355 is a reply to message #184339] |
Sat, 31 December 2005 19:15 |
=HT=T-Bird
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| Sniper_De7 wrote on Sat, 31 December 2005 17:26 |
| ben5015se wrote on Sat, 31 December 2005 17:42 |
| light wrote on Sat, 31 December 2005 16:36 |
I play in servers I mod/admin as much as possible. The others I try to know the hosts/admins. Failing that, I can play in other servers and show people that non-RG players don't all cheat.
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its funny becouse its true, well ..there are a couple of non rg users that cheat, but iv only seen one person and that was on my cnr server..
but i bet there are more cheaters bypassing rengaurd then there are not using rengaurd
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Dead wrong. I've seen at LEAST 5 cheaters on non-rg servers in the past week and they all didn't have renguard. Number of cheaters I've seen using Renguard in the past 2 months? 0. I doubt you've seen over 1 person using renguard that was cheating. Not that i really know your judgement on cheating either; you could think i was cheating when i wasn't. I've done some pretty messed up things that could easily pass as what a cheater can do (ie pistoling a gdi soldier 4x in a row when he's dodging) it's only logic that there would be more people cheating without RG than people with it.
Anyways, a moderator would still ask you "why you don't install renguard" and since you have no real reason not to, it look suspiciuos since you have absolutely nothing to lose by getting it. I still don't see why not using RG helps moderators check people that are running RG so that's not an excuse to not use RG. I mean the same moderators that test when you don't have RG, how do you know they wouldn't when you're not using renguard.. it would be two seperate times. not that it matters since you don't even have renguard installed so you don't know if moderators would check you if you had renguard installed. Pretty much most of the servers i've all been tested and i've had renguard. So to say that moderators never check rg users is wrong. In fact.. most, if not, all cases where a person said i was cheating i was tested.
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Counter Example #1: Crazy posted a screenshot (somewhere) that showed him wall hacking (successfully, i might add) and running RG...hint hint...if someone writes a working aimbot...there goes Renny...unless RG is extended to catch aimbots!
P.S. I have tested RG users every now and then (usually if RG is acting funny though)
P.P.S. There are SERVERS which can't run RG (our clan has no reason to change to BRenBot from our highly customized version of BR.NET and can't run the Standalone SSC because it crashes our Ren server!)
Also, there is no substitute for good moderation.
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HTTBird (WOL)
Proud HazTeam Lieutenant.
BlackIntel Coder & Moderator.
If you have trouble running BIATCH on your FDS, have some questions about a BIATCH message or log entry, or think that BIATCH spit out a false positive, PLEASE contact the BlackIntel coding team and avoid wasting the time of others.
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| Re: The 5 Phases of RenGuard users [message #184357 is a reply to message #184130] |
Sat, 31 December 2005 19:36 |
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Crimson
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Playing Renegade without RenGuard is like being a female and having sex without a condom -- do you trust the guy doesn't have an STD or do you use something that's 99% trustworthy (condom/RG) and minimize your chances of getting something? To me someone saying "I don't need to use RG, you know I don't cheat" sounds a lot like "C'mon baby, it just doesn't feel right when I wear a rubber... you can trust me, I'm clean!"
If you respect the server owner who's allowing you to play on their server, then use RenGuard/a rubber.
I'm the bawss.
[Updated on: Sat, 31 December 2005 19:37] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: The 5 Phases of RenGuard users [message #184365 is a reply to message #184357] |
Sat, 31 December 2005 20:53 |
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cmatt42
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| Crimson wrote on Sat, 31 December 2005 20:36 |
Playing Renegade without RenGuard is like being a female and having sex without a condom -- do you trust the guy doesn't have an STD or do you use something that's 99% trustworthy (condom/RG) and minimize your chances of getting something? To me someone saying "I don't need to use RG, you know I don't cheat" sounds a lot like "C'mon baby, it just doesn't feel right when I wear a rubber... you can trust me, I'm clean!"
If you respect the server owner who's allowing you to play on their server, then use RenGuard/a rubber.
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I forget who made that...
GunKataGaming.net
[Updated on: Sat, 31 December 2005 20:54] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: The 5 Phases of RenGuard users [message #184404 is a reply to message #184130] |
Sun, 01 January 2006 10:32 |
NeWbSh0T
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Registered: December 2005
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Are you guys all really that slow? I will repeat once again that he IS NOT discrediting RG (someone else said this above) But he is just pointing out that just because individuals don't run RG doesn't mean they are cheating. That's where his problem is I will give you a few prime examples:
[09:59] <LTserv1> assk1ck66 killed elmow6 (Sakura VS Mobius)
[09:59] <LTserv1> AssK1ck22 killed NOS999 (Sakura VS Deadeye)
[09:59] <LTserv1> NOS999: so who are u guys
[09:59] <LTserv1> elmow6: !rg assk1ck66
[09:59] <LTserv1> jkillernl made mincemeat out of AssK1ck44 (Sakura VS Havoc)
[09:59] <LTserv1> assk1ck: masters
[09:59] <LTserv1> assk1ck66: lol
[09:59] <LTserv1> elmow6: !forcerg assk1ck66
[09:59] <LTserv1> assk1ck: lol
[10:00] <LTserv1> assk1ck66: n00b
[10:00] <LTserv1> elmow6: shut up n00bie hacker
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<LTserv1> cpualex assassinated ixscopexi (Havoc VS Stealth Black Hand)
[11:50] <LTserv1> kazazkzak killed LeMeNaDiE{RT-E}#1 (Sakura VS Hotwire)
[11:50] <LTserv1> Nevanca: No.
[11:50] <LTserv1> s0megeeza assassinated Neoz5923 (Havoc VS Black Hand Sniper)
[11:50] <LTserv1> Nevanca: =p
[11:50] <LTserv1> ixscopexi: !rg cpu
[11:50] <LTserv1> Neoz5923: noo
[11:50] <LTserv1> ixscopexi: !forcerg cpu
This is his problem, assk1ck66 kills elmow6, instantly upon his death he checks renguard on the person who killed him; The server saying he is NOT running Renguard, elmow66 instantly tries to !forcerg assk1ck66. This same instance occurs in the second example as well. This continuous event that takes place is also what leads me to playing on servers I mod/admin for, or that I know the moderator and admins of. Being discredited by not running RG is a problematic issue with Renegade. Too many players believe that RenGuard is perfect and you all will admit it yourself that RG is not perfect, so why use it? People and moderators of many servers rely way too heavily on Renguard. I'm not sure what is so hard to grasp that concept, or get it to stick in any of your brains....
Keep in mind upon the release of the next version of RenGuard if it shows improvement I will run it...
[Updated on: Sun, 01 January 2006 10:36] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: The 5 Phases of RenGuard users [message #184416 is a reply to message #184130] |
Sun, 01 January 2006 12:50 |
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Goztow
Messages: 9738
Registered: March 2005
Location: Belgium
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I'm a bit late but somewhere someone pointed out that brenbot doesn't ban on ip? It DOES!
And you CAN manually ban on name and ip. Check youri nfo before posting.
Other than that: a !forcerg isn't a punishment, it's a good thing to encourage people to use RG for all the reasons crimson explained over and over again.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: The 5 Phases of RenGuard users [message #184434 is a reply to message #184416] |
Sun, 01 January 2006 14:22 |
Cobalt
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Registered: October 2005
Location: U.k
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Can you stop posting comparisons involving sex and someone breaking into your house, i've said it once i will say it again, This is a game, although you may feel orgasmically towards it its not sex, and its not you're house being burgled, its a game! a video game!, Cheaters can cheat with RG and without RG, right now RG is helping n00bs kick out anyone who doesnt have RG, When the new RG comes out, I hear its going to be a big improvement and i will update my RG, Then hopefully we can truly cut down the cheaters in ren and start owning nubs without getting kicked out of the game.
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| Re: The 5 Phases of RenGuard users [message #184439 is a reply to message #184436] |
Sun, 01 January 2006 15:06 |
Cobalt
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Registered: October 2005
Location: U.k
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roflmfao,
WHY BOTHER USING SUCH LAME REASONS AS SEX AND BURGLARY TO MAKE YOU'RE POINT, ITS COMPLETELY PATHETIC! WHAT A STUPID POINT, MY POINT IS THAT WHO CARES ABOUT A GAME, YOU CARE ABOUT YOU'RE BODY AND YOU'RE HOME, JESUS YOU SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT AN STD OR SOMEONE BREAKING INTO YOUR HOUSE IS SERIOUS ROFL, A CHEATER IN YOU'RE SERVER ISNT A DISEASE OR DANGEROUS, OR MAYBE AN STDIS LESS SERIOUS THAN A CHEATER TO YOU?????
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| Re: The 5 Phases of RenGuard users [message #184477 is a reply to message #184404] |
Mon, 02 January 2006 06:09 |
=HT=T-Bird
Messages: 712
Registered: June 2005
Karma: 0
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| NeWbSh0T wrote on Sun, 01 January 2006 11:32 |
Are you guys all really that slow? I will repeat once again that he IS NOT discrediting RG (someone else said this above) But he is just pointing out that just because individuals don't run RG doesn't mean they are cheating. That's where his problem is I will give you a few prime examples:
[09:59] <LTserv1> assk1ck66 killed elmow6 (Sakura VS Mobius)
[09:59] <LTserv1> AssK1ck22 killed NOS999 (Sakura VS Deadeye)
[09:59] <LTserv1> NOS999: so who are u guys
[09:59] <LTserv1> elmow6: !rg assk1ck66
[09:59] <LTserv1> jkillernl made mincemeat out of AssK1ck44 (Sakura VS Havoc)
[09:59] <LTserv1> assk1ck: masters
[09:59] <LTserv1> assk1ck66: lol
[09:59] <LTserv1> elmow6: !forcerg assk1ck66
[09:59] <LTserv1> assk1ck: lol
[10:00] <LTserv1> assk1ck66: n00b
[10:00] <LTserv1> elmow6: shut up n00bie hacker
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<LTserv1> cpualex assassinated ixscopexi (Havoc VS Stealth Black Hand)
[11:50] <LTserv1> kazazkzak killed LeMeNaDiE{RT-E}#1 (Sakura VS Hotwire)
[11:50] <LTserv1> Nevanca: No.
[11:50] <LTserv1> s0megeeza assassinated Neoz5923 (Havoc VS Black Hand Sniper)
[11:50] <LTserv1> Nevanca: =p
[11:50] <LTserv1> ixscopexi: !rg cpu
[11:50] <LTserv1> Neoz5923: noo
[11:50] <LTserv1> ixscopexi: !forcerg cpu
This is his problem, assk1ck66 kills elmow6, instantly upon his death he checks renguard on the person who killed him; The server saying he is NOT running Renguard, elmow66 instantly tries to !forcerg assk1ck66. This same instance occurs in the second example as well. This continuous event that takes place is also what leads me to playing on servers I mod/admin for, or that I know the moderator and admins of. Being discredited by not running RG is a problematic issue with Renegade. Too many players believe that RenGuard is perfect and you all will admit it yourself that RG is not perfect, so why use it? People and moderators of many servers rely way too heavily on Renguard. I'm not sure what is so hard to grasp that concept, or get it to stick in any of your brains....
Keep in mind upon the release of the next version of RenGuard if it shows improvement I will run it...
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I actually agree that some people (not me though) rely on RenGuard exclusively, which is totally wrong...Does someone have to write a working aimbot for Renegade to prove our points here? I hope not... 
HTT-Bird (IRC)
HTTBird (WOL)
Proud HazTeam Lieutenant.
BlackIntel Coder & Moderator.
If you have trouble running BIATCH on your FDS, have some questions about a BIATCH message or log entry, or think that BIATCH spit out a false positive, PLEASE contact the BlackIntel coding team and avoid wasting the time of others.
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| Re: The 5 Phases of RenGuard users [message #184505 is a reply to message #184130] |
Mon, 02 January 2006 13:39 |
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Dan
Messages: 395
Registered: August 2003
Location: UK
Karma: 0
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I've already gone and shown that RenGuard can be 'bypassed'. That is, an external program that in that case was a clickbot. Although Blazer says that clickbots are crap and dont work very well, in multiplayer practice, the clickbot worked surprisingly well. And as long as you have a decent framerate, it aids you very well. The only way I found to spot this is when you walk into a building where the base power is offline (the interior is red), it went pretty wild.
Since a clickbot is an external program, you could probably pause it too, so it can not only get past RenGuard, it could also bypass tests that moderators can give if you can pause it. This is why they need to look into ways of preventing you from playing if it can detect any unallowed programs running in the background. Although this would be a more difficult thing to do...
I hope that this is addressed in RenGuard 1.04
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