Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » Patriot Act Renewal rejected by the Senate
| Re: Patriot Act Renewal rejected by the Senate [message #182753 is a reply to message #182562] |
Mon, 19 December 2005 16:58   |
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YSLMuffins
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| Hydra wrote on Sun, 18 December 2005 02:23 |
Uh-huh, and they were necessary for wiretaps and the like even under the Patriot Act.
Your point?
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So why would the Senate's unwillingness to renew the Patriot Act affect spying on terrorists, then? A major part of the act was to allow roving wiretaps without a warrant.
| Hydra wrote on Sun, 18 December 2005 00:08 |
It's a shame we can use phone and wire taps on suspected drug lords but not suspected terrorists, now.
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The laws passed during the "war on drugs" were, I think, much scarier than the Patriot Act.
-YSLMuffins
The goddess of all (bread products)
See me online as yslcheeze
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| Re: Patriot Act Renewal rejected by the Senate [message #182759 is a reply to message #182753] |
Mon, 19 December 2005 17:41 |
runewood
Messages: 138
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Hay, maybe they will get rid of those and pass the "Hug drug lords and terrorists act".
"Don't try to be a great man, just be a man. Let history make it's own judgments."
"Maybe its not the destination that matters, but the journey."
"How many people does it take before its wrong? A thousand? Fifty thousand? A million?"
"Im not here to tell you how it is going to end, Im here to tell you how it is going to begin."
"Its not the end or even the beggining of the end, mearly the end of the beggining."
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom; not the end."
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| Re: Patriot Act Renewal rejected by the Senate [message #182900 is a reply to message #182418] |
Tue, 20 December 2005 14:58 |
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NukeIt15
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False sense is still better then mass fear.
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Sadly, that is exactly the attitude which is going to allow the next terrorist attack. So the government enacted some new legislation- well, most folks haven't the foggiest idea about what it does, but it sounds like something that'll make them safer. Knowing that the government is ever-vigilant, we can all sleep soundly at night, right? Wrong! Complacency kills- quite a few people seem to have forgotten that confidence that terrorists were not a threat was precisely the reason why the 9/11 attacks were such a huge, tragic surprise.
Mass fear is bad, too, but either extreme ought to be avoided. Both are dangerous. Mass panic leads to mob rule, where innocent people are victimized for being percieved as similar to the source of a threat (this happened a number of times immediately post-9/11). Complacency, on the other hand, leads us to place too much faith in those who need to be under constant scrutiny (the government, that is).
Moderation is a skill which the majority of the human race just doesn't seem to have mastered... people are far more comfortable when they can claim to be right (to the exclusion of all possibility of doubt), no matter what. That is, to paraphrase a certain man whose name is familiar to most of the world: we can't (or won't) see past our own noses, yet are ever-ready to laugh at the blindness of others. Extremism isn't limited to fanatics wearing dynamite belts.
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived of the use of them." - Thomas Paine
Remember, kids: illiteracy is cool. If you took the time to read this, you are clearly a loser who will never get laid. You've been warned.
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| Re: Patriot Act Renewal rejected by the Senate [message #182912 is a reply to message #182900] |
Tue, 20 December 2005 16:30 |
runewood
Messages: 138
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It doesn't matter if the people are Complacent, as long as the gov has what it needs they can fight it. When they don't have what they need then we get screwed. We forget that we need these sacrifices in order to be safe. People wont know that again till there is another attack. When those people die I will have no pity because WE did it to them.
"Don't try to be a great man, just be a man. Let history make it's own judgments."
"Maybe its not the destination that matters, but the journey."
"How many people does it take before its wrong? A thousand? Fifty thousand? A million?"
"Im not here to tell you how it is going to end, Im here to tell you how it is going to begin."
"Its not the end or even the beggining of the end, mearly the end of the beggining."
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom; not the end."
[Updated on: Tue, 20 December 2005 16:30] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Patriot Act Renewal rejected by the Senate [message #182936 is a reply to message #182418] |
Tue, 20 December 2005 20:19 |
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NukeIt15
Messages: 987
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It doesn't matter if the people are Complacent, as long as the gov has what it needs they can fight it. When they don't have what they need then we get screwed. We forget that we need these sacrifices in order to be safe. People wont know that again till there is another attack. When those people die I will have no pity because WE did it to them.
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See, here's the problem... the more power you give to the bureaucracy, the more power they'll claim they need. It just isn't as easy as saying "here, you can do whatever you need to" because they'll take it one step further and do whatever they want to. In government, that's a very, very bad thing. Basically, if you give the government the power to spy on any citizen they want to, the dominant party will be likely to use that newfound power to spy on political opponents.
Don't think that's likely? I turn your attention to Watergate. No matter how good and decent you may think your government is, most of the people who run it (and this goes for ALL branches and levels) are in those positions because they wanted the power and/or publicity. There are higher paying jobs out there; they intend to further an agenda. Now, they might do so keeping in mind what they think is in the best interests of the country, but the concerns of Joe Average American hardly figure in the daily goings-on of the government.
Which is precisely why the government needs to be watched, and watched carefully. Our founding fathers worded the Constitution the way they did specifically to put as much power in the hands of the PEOPLE as they possibly could. No matter how frequently governemnt officials are rotated out and replaced, there is always a danger that a large governing body could overstep its authority. A good many people believe that this has already happened, and that we (the people) have just looked past it as if nothing was wrong. Any breach of the public trust should not be tolerated.
I'm wondering...are you of voting age? Do you read into what your government does (that is, are you aware of the kind of legislation that gets passed/rejected, significant court rulings, executive actions, etc)? Often, a perfectly acceptable piece of legislation is used to pass a seperate, completely unrelated item as a footnote (in the hopes that nobody will read the whole thing). That little provision often pertains to expanded government powers, funneling additional funding to X, Y, or Z official's pet project (that would be pork-barrel spending), another piece of legislation which was previously rejected, etc. That happens all the time- with almost every bill. And it happens right under the noses of everybody; it is stuff which any citizen could look up and examine. The real question is this: if the government already gets away with so much in plain view of the public, then what's going on behind the scenes that we don't know about?
Never, ever, ever take anything for granted. This country was founded on the basis of lack of trust in authority. It would be a mistake to forget that...whether you agree or disagree with what the government does, you really should keep an eye on what, exactly, it is doing.
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived of the use of them." - Thomas Paine
Remember, kids: illiteracy is cool. If you took the time to read this, you are clearly a loser who will never get laid. You've been warned.
[Updated on: Tue, 20 December 2005 20:21] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Patriot Act Renewal rejected by the Senate [message #182942 is a reply to message #182418] |
Tue, 20 December 2005 20:48 |
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Doitle
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Tell me what freedoms the patriot act took from you dumbasses. Do you even know what it covers?
"OMFGQWTFJBBQ DEY DUN TOOKDED HOUR FREEDUMS WTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTFWTF I H8 BUSH CUZ HE IS LIEK SUCK AND STUFF GRRR DUMN TEXAS!!!1!11111142222 NOW CUZ OF PATREEOHT ACT THE FBI DUN INSTALLD CAMRAS IN MY HOUSE! WERE ARE MY FIRST AM..M... WRITES!?"
Also upon re-reading YSL knows what it was about. Wiretaps.
[Updated on: Tue, 20 December 2005 20:49] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Patriot Act Renewal rejected by the Senate [message #182943 is a reply to message #182538] |
Tue, 20 December 2005 21:05 |
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Nodbugger
Messages: 976
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| SuperFlyingEngi wrote on Sat, 17 December 2005 23:01 |
Don't worry, President Bush is illegally authorizing spying anyways.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/12/17/113212/10
EDIT: Oh, and gbull, why'd you say no if you're in support of the War in Iraq? (You still are, right?)
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You need to learn what the president can and can't do first.
The ability of the 1978 FISC act to limit the ability of the executive branch depends on how the 1972 United States v. United States District Court for the Eastern District of Michigan et al, (407 U.S. 297) is interperted by the courts. The court stated
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&am p;vol=407&invol=297
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We begin the inquiry by noting that the President of the United States has the fundamental duty, under Art. II, 1, of the Constitution, to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States." Implicit in that duty is the power to protect our Government against those who would subvert or overthrow it by unlawful means. In the discharge of this duty, the President - through the Attorney General - may find it necessary to employ electronic surveillance to obtain intelligence information on the plans of those who plot unlawful acts against the Government.
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Further, the instant case requires no judgment on the scope of the President's surveillance power with respect to the activities of foreign powers, within or without this country.
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Based on this ruling, the President may have the authority to use warentless wiretaps on Foreign National even if it involves US citizens, regardless of the FISC act. Additionally the FISC may be unconstitutional, because it may be a attempt by congress to impose restrictions on the executive Branch of the governement outside of the constitutional admendment process.
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| Re: Patriot Act Renewal rejected by the Senate [message #183218 is a reply to message #182936] |
Thu, 22 December 2005 21:19 |
runewood
Messages: 138
Registered: October 2005
Location: SE Michigan
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| NukeIt15 wrote on Tue, 20 December 2005 21:19 |
| Quote: |
It doesn't matter if the people are Complacent, as long as the gov has what it needs they can fight it. When they don't have what they need then we get screwed. We forget that we need these sacrifices in order to be safe. People wont know that again till there is another attack. When those people die I will have no pity because WE did it to them.
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See, here's the problem... the more power you give to the bureaucracy, the more power they'll claim they need. It just isn't as easy as saying "here, you can do whatever you need to" because they'll take it one step further and do whatever they want to. In government, that's a very, very bad thing. Basically, if you give the government the power to spy on any citizen they want to, the dominant party will be likely to use that newfound power to spy on political opponents.
Don't think that's likely? I turn your attention to Watergate. No matter how good and decent you may think your government is, most of the people who run it (and this goes for ALL branches and levels) are in those positions because they wanted the power and/or publicity. There are higher paying jobs out there; they intend to further an agenda. Now, they might do so keeping in mind what they think is in the best interests of the country, but the concerns of Joe Average American hardly figure in the daily goings-on of the government.
Which is precisely why the government needs to be watched, and watched carefully. Our founding fathers worded the Constitution the way they did specifically to put as much power in the hands of the PEOPLE as they possibly could. No matter how frequently governemnt officials are rotated out and replaced, there is always a danger that a large governing body could overstep its authority. A good many people believe that this has already happened, and that we (the people) have just looked past it as if nothing was wrong. Any breach of the public trust should not be tolerated.
I'm wondering...are you of voting age? Do you read into what your government does (that is, are you aware of the kind of legislation that gets passed/rejected, significant court rulings, executive actions, etc)? Often, a perfectly acceptable piece of legislation is used to pass a seperate, completely unrelated item as a footnote (in the hopes that nobody will read the whole thing). That little provision often pertains to expanded government powers, funneling additional funding to X, Y, or Z official's pet project (that would be pork-barrel spending), another piece of legislation which was previously rejected, etc. That happens all the time- with almost every bill. And it happens right under the noses of everybody; it is stuff which any citizen could look up and examine. The real question is this: if the government already gets away with so much in plain view of the public, then what's going on behind the scenes that we don't know about?
Never, ever, ever take anything for granted. This country was founded on the basis of lack of trust in authority. It would be a mistake to forget that...whether you agree or disagree with what the government does, you really should keep an eye on what, exactly, it is doing.
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No I can't vote but im counting off the days. When I turn 18 thats all I care about. Im going to major in polotical science.
Yes, they do tack shit onto bills. The defense bill has Kitrena relief, defnese spending and ANWAR drilling on it.
Id rather the gov know what books i read then get on a bus and be blow to bits because that terrorist was protected from the CIA.
If the gov goes too far we have the locol millitias. Thats why we have the 2nd ammendment. The people DO have the power. The power to abolish the government. The power to pettition the government for grivences. So don't feed out crap about a powerless, helpless american people.
"Don't try to be a great man, just be a man. Let history make it's own judgments."
"Maybe its not the destination that matters, but the journey."
"How many people does it take before its wrong? A thousand? Fifty thousand? A million?"
"Im not here to tell you how it is going to end, Im here to tell you how it is going to begin."
"Its not the end or even the beggining of the end, mearly the end of the beggining."
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom; not the end."
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| Re: Patriot Act Renewal rejected by the Senate [message #183256 is a reply to message #183218] |
Fri, 23 December 2005 04:10 |
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DreamWraith
Messages: 130
Registered: November 2005
Karma: 0
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| runewood wrote on Thu, 22 December 2005 22:19 |
| NukeIt15 wrote on Tue, 20 December 2005 21:19 |
| Quote: |
It doesn't matter if the people are Complacent, as long as the gov has what it needs they can fight it. When they don't have what they need then we get screwed. We forget that we need these sacrifices in order to be safe. People wont know that again till there is another attack. When those people die I will have no pity because WE did it to them.
|
See, here's the problem... the more power you give to the bureaucracy, the more power they'll claim they need. It just isn't as easy as saying "here, you can do whatever you need to" because they'll take it one step further and do whatever they want to. In government, that's a very, very bad thing. Basically, if you give the government the power to spy on any citizen they want to, the dominant party will be likely to use that newfound power to spy on political opponents.
Don't think that's likely? I turn your attention to Watergate. No matter how good and decent you may think your government is, most of the people who run it (and this goes for ALL branches and levels) are in those positions because they wanted the power and/or publicity. There are higher paying jobs out there; they intend to further an agenda. Now, they might do so keeping in mind what they think is in the best interests of the country, but the concerns of Joe Average American hardly figure in the daily goings-on of the government.
Which is precisely why the government needs to be watched, and watched carefully. Our founding fathers worded the Constitution the way they did specifically to put as much power in the hands of the PEOPLE as they possibly could. No matter how frequently governemnt officials are rotated out and replaced, there is always a danger that a large governing body could overstep its authority. A good many people believe that this has already happened, and that we (the people) have just looked past it as if nothing was wrong. Any breach of the public trust should not be tolerated.
I'm wondering...are you of voting age? Do you read into what your government does (that is, are you aware of the kind of legislation that gets passed/rejected, significant court rulings, executive actions, etc)? Often, a perfectly acceptable piece of legislation is used to pass a seperate, completely unrelated item as a footnote (in the hopes that nobody will read the whole thing). That little provision often pertains to expanded government powers, funneling additional funding to X, Y, or Z official's pet project (that would be pork-barrel spending), another piece of legislation which was previously rejected, etc. That happens all the time- with almost every bill. And it happens right under the noses of everybody; it is stuff which any citizen could look up and examine. The real question is this: if the government already gets away with so much in plain view of the public, then what's going on behind the scenes that we don't know about?
Never, ever, ever take anything for granted. This country was founded on the basis of lack of trust in authority. It would be a mistake to forget that...whether you agree or disagree with what the government does, you really should keep an eye on what, exactly, it is doing.
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No I can't vote but im counting off the days. When I turn 18 thats all I care about. Im going to major in polotical science.
Yes, they do tack shit onto bills. The defense bill has Kitrena relief, defnese spending and ANWAR drilling on it.
Id rather the gov know what books i read then get on a bus and be blow to bits because that terrorist was protected from the CIA.
If the gov goes too far we have the locol millitias. Thats why we have the 2nd ammendment. The people DO have the power. The power to abolish the government. The power to pettition the government for grivences. So don't feed out crap about a powerless, helpless american people.
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i used to think like you. then i grew up.
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| Re: Patriot Act Renewal rejected by the Senate [message #183299 is a reply to message #183256] |
Fri, 23 December 2005 09:51 |
runewood
Messages: 138
Registered: October 2005
Location: SE Michigan
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Good for you. Just because you are older doesnt mean my opnions are crap. I will still mostly think this way when I get older.
"Don't try to be a great man, just be a man. Let history make it's own judgments."
"Maybe its not the destination that matters, but the journey."
"How many people does it take before its wrong? A thousand? Fifty thousand? A million?"
"Im not here to tell you how it is going to end, Im here to tell you how it is going to begin."
"Its not the end or even the beggining of the end, mearly the end of the beggining."
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom; not the end."
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| Re: Patriot Act Renewal rejected by the Senate [message #183305 is a reply to message #182418] |
Fri, 23 December 2005 10:09 |
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SuperFlyingEngi
Messages: 1756
Registered: November 2003
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General (1 Star) |
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Can I borrow your time machine?
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
"The danger to political dissent is acute where the Government attempts to act under so vague a concept as the power to protect "domestic security." Given the difficulty of defining the domestic security interest, the danger of abuse in acting to protect that interest becomes apparent. --U.S. Supreme Court decision (407 U.S. 297 (1972)
The Liberal Media At Work
An objective look at media partisanship
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| Re: Patriot Act Renewal rejected by the Senate [message #183324 is a reply to message #183305] |
Fri, 23 December 2005 12:03 |
runewood
Messages: 138
Registered: October 2005
Location: SE Michigan
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No, its mine, get your own.
"Don't try to be a great man, just be a man. Let history make it's own judgments."
"Maybe its not the destination that matters, but the journey."
"How many people does it take before its wrong? A thousand? Fifty thousand? A million?"
"Im not here to tell you how it is going to end, Im here to tell you how it is going to begin."
"Its not the end or even the beggining of the end, mearly the end of the beggining."
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom; not the end."
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| Re: Patriot Act Renewal rejected by the Senate [message #183412 is a reply to message #182418] |
Fri, 23 December 2005 17:54 |
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Crimson
Messages: 7429
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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ADMINISTRATOR |
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You gotta love the ad hominem flying about the place.
Just remember that BOTH parties spew a bunch of bullshit our way, and BOTH parties use our tax dollars (well, those of us who aren't moochers anyway) to bribe people for their own interests. The Democrats give it out in social programs to keep the lower class voting for them, and the Republicans give it to their buddies in big business.
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: Patriot Act Renewal rejected by the Senate [message #183435 is a reply to message #183424] |
Fri, 23 December 2005 19:28 |
runewood
Messages: 138
Registered: October 2005
Location: SE Michigan
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You shouldn't play polotics with life and death.
"Don't try to be a great man, just be a man. Let history make it's own judgments."
"Maybe its not the destination that matters, but the journey."
"How many people does it take before its wrong? A thousand? Fifty thousand? A million?"
"Im not here to tell you how it is going to end, Im here to tell you how it is going to begin."
"Its not the end or even the beggining of the end, mearly the end of the beggining."
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom; not the end."
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| Re: Patriot Act Renewal rejected by the Senate [message #183486 is a reply to message #182418] |
Sat, 24 December 2005 02:33 |
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Scythar
Messages: 580
Registered: February 2003
Location: Finland
Karma: 0
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It isn't all about what an average citizen has to hide. It's about what the governments have to hide. Every single form of government on this planet has corruption. There are people who would wiretap the average Joe Citizen and then ABUSE the knowledge in God knows what ways. Sell it ahead or perhaps use it against the citizen for whatever reasons, maybe in courts. Sell it to terrorists so they know your religious beliefs, maybe, since the t-word is so feared nowadays...use your imagination, what can be done with valuable information that can be converted to money?
The patriot act would work very well if some divine force came and vaporized every EVIL(Asshat) person in the lead of a country.
Yes, I'm talking globally, similiar laws are processed in many other countries too, and the problem perists.
One view.
There's a hole in the sky through which things can fly.
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| Re: Patriot Act Renewal rejected by the Senate [message #183580 is a reply to message #183486] |
Sat, 24 December 2005 16:05 |
runewood
Messages: 138
Registered: October 2005
Location: SE Michigan
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IF your worried about abuse then get stuff to over see the people who work in this crap. That fact is, the PATRIOT Act did something where no one else acted. The wrong action is better then no action. Gunning down a mugger is better then doing nothing.
"Don't try to be a great man, just be a man. Let history make it's own judgments."
"Maybe its not the destination that matters, but the journey."
"How many people does it take before its wrong? A thousand? Fifty thousand? A million?"
"Im not here to tell you how it is going to end, Im here to tell you how it is going to begin."
"Its not the end or even the beggining of the end, mearly the end of the beggining."
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom; not the end."
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| Re: Patriot Act Renewal rejected by the Senate [message #183598 is a reply to message #182418] |
Sat, 24 December 2005 18:55 |
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NukeIt15
Messages: 987
Registered: February 2003
Location: Out to lunch
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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The wrong action is better then no action.
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Thank you. I needed a good laugh today.
No offense, but you really don't pay much attention to politics, do you?
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived of the use of them." - Thomas Paine
Remember, kids: illiteracy is cool. If you took the time to read this, you are clearly a loser who will never get laid. You've been warned.
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| Re: Patriot Act Renewal rejected by the Senate [message #183685 is a reply to message #183598] |
Sun, 25 December 2005 20:25 |
runewood
Messages: 138
Registered: October 2005
Location: SE Michigan
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Yes, I do. Look at UK, Spain and soon to be France. They have weak terror laws.
"Don't try to be a great man, just be a man. Let history make it's own judgments."
"Maybe its not the destination that matters, but the journey."
"How many people does it take before its wrong? A thousand? Fifty thousand? A million?"
"Im not here to tell you how it is going to end, Im here to tell you how it is going to begin."
"Its not the end or even the beggining of the end, mearly the end of the beggining."
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom; not the end."
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| Re: Patriot Act Renewal rejected by the Senate [message #183896 is a reply to message #182418] |
Tue, 27 December 2005 23:00 |
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glyde51
Messages: 1827
Registered: August 2004
Location: Winnipeg
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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OH NO! THE TERRORISTS! AIEE!
Look, for all you people that hugged this act, I've got a message for you:
TERRORISTS ARE IN YOUR BACKYARD, PLANT LANDMINDS THERE BEFORE THEY GET INTO YOUR GODDAMN BACKDOOR.
For anyone who are sane (opposed it, or disagreed with parts of it) let's all go for a cup of tea.
How about instead of supporting this tragically faulty bill, you go and support making a NEW bill that works for the CITIZENS and for getting rid of TERRORISTS.
With everyone running around going "omg terrorists on the bus omgomgomg the US is the new middle east save us plz goverment plz take my privacy omgomgomg i dunt care about ma layfe i want teh terrorists gone!" then, uhh...
You need a deep breath, a glass of water, and a 2*4 over the head.
For all of us who know that terrorists aren't big huge boogy men that live around every single corner, let's just uphold the fact that the goverment should pass laws that help THE PEOPLE while GETTING THE JOB DONE.
Saying "BIBI PRIVACY PWNT!" isn't GETTING THE JOB DONE because it's not HELPING THE PEOPLE. Innocent people can be suddenly investigated out of nowhere! YAY!
Anyways kids, remember to check your closet for Osama.
No. Seriously. No.
[Updated on: Tue, 27 December 2005 23:03] Report message to a moderator |
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