Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » Abortion [split]
| Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types [message #178428 is a reply to message #178164] |
Tue, 08 November 2005 18:00   |
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SuperFlyingEngi
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That last point is actually readily demonstrated in African countries where abortion is illegal so women just get abortions in back allies instead of the hospital. As a result, many die from poor operations.
I personally don't want that to happen in America.
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
"The danger to political dissent is acute where the Government attempts to act under so vague a concept as the power to protect "domestic security." Given the difficulty of defining the domestic security interest, the danger of abuse in acting to protect that interest becomes apparent. --U.S. Supreme Court decision (407 U.S. 297 (1972)
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| Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types [message #178432 is a reply to message #178164] |
Tue, 08 November 2005 18:36 |
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NeoSaber
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While we're at it, let's legalize robbery. After all, even though its illegal people still do it, and because it is illegal its not safe and people get killed trying to do it.
If it were legal than people wouldn't need to take bystanders hostage when they rob banks. They wouldn't need to get into gun battles with police, since the police wouldn't be able to stop them. Store employees wouldn't have to worry about getting shot by the robbers, the thieves wouldn't have to worry about getting shot by police, and police wouldn't have to worry about getting shot in the course of their duty. If everyone could just walk into a bank and say "Give me all your money!" then society would be a much safer place. Wouldn't that be wonderful?
NeoSaber
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[Updated on: Tue, 08 November 2005 18:36] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types [message #178441 is a reply to message #178425] |
Tue, 08 November 2005 19:42 |
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Doitle
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| Ryan3k wrote on Tue, 08 November 2005 18: |
If someone wants to point out a "paradox" in beliefs and add something to this discussion of actual worth, you can do without a childish and prejudiced cartoon.
...Like how I described earlier in this thread how many conservatives don't believe in gun control, yet would support the illegalization of abortion.
Meaning,
If you illegalize guns, criminals will still get guns.
THEREFORE,
If you illegalize abortion, women will still get abortions.
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If you are against Gun Control you are AGAINST Illegalizing guns. You didn't exactly prove anything in relation to abortion but you just defeated the liberal cause in response to their stance on gun control.
[Updated on: Tue, 08 November 2005 19:43] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types [message #178444 is a reply to message #178164] |
Tue, 08 November 2005 19:45 |
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SuperFlyingEngi
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No, because a funny little thing called everyone having assault rifles to keep themselves from getting robbed would happen.
Shootings would skyrocket, and at the end of the day everyone would be much less safe.
So let's not do that.
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
"The danger to political dissent is acute where the Government attempts to act under so vague a concept as the power to protect "domestic security." Given the difficulty of defining the domestic security interest, the danger of abuse in acting to protect that interest becomes apparent. --U.S. Supreme Court decision (407 U.S. 297 (1972)
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| Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types [message #178446 is a reply to message #178164] |
Tue, 08 November 2005 19:56 |
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SuperFlyingEngi
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You could if robbery was legitimate.
BTW, I meant to be rebutting Neosaber. You just posted between me clicking "post" and "submit". Whatever, no harm done.
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
"The danger to political dissent is acute where the Government attempts to act under so vague a concept as the power to protect "domestic security." Given the difficulty of defining the domestic security interest, the danger of abuse in acting to protect that interest becomes apparent. --U.S. Supreme Court decision (407 U.S. 297 (1972)
The Liberal Media At Work
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| Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types [message #178448 is a reply to message #178164] |
Tue, 08 November 2005 20:03 |
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Crimson
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At this point I'm in favor of legalizing abortion but place heavy taxes on it and supplement it with educating all these morons about birth control and reminding them that having a baby isn't like creating yourself a new friend.
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types [message #178450 is a reply to message #178164] |
Tue, 08 November 2005 20:22 |
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SuperFlyingEngi
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...That's actually a pretty good idea. I hadn't thought about that.
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
"The danger to political dissent is acute where the Government attempts to act under so vague a concept as the power to protect "domestic security." Given the difficulty of defining the domestic security interest, the danger of abuse in acting to protect that interest becomes apparent. --U.S. Supreme Court decision (407 U.S. 297 (1972)
The Liberal Media At Work
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| Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types [message #178451 is a reply to message #178444] |
Tue, 08 November 2005 20:37 |
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NeoSaber
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| SuperFlyingEngi wrote on Tue, 08 November 2005 21:45 |
No, because a funny little thing called everyone having assault rifles to keep themselves from getting robbed would happen.
Shootings would skyrocket, and at the end of the day everyone would be much less safe.
So let's not do that.
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Wait... so you mean by legalizing crimes to prevent people from getting hurt while carrying them out, we only end up making things worse? But you said that abortion being legal helps people...
The point of my statement was, of course, that things become illegal in the first place because they harm people. Advocating they be made legal so those who suffer from the crimes won't suffer is idiotic, as it just makes the situation worse. It applies to robbery and it applies to abortion as well.
When abortion was legalized in the US, people started having abortions by the millions. This was a huge increase of what happened when it was illegal. That's over a million humans killed every year, and over a million women who risk abortion related complications (including death) in the US alone.
But don't take my word for it, here's what one of the founders of NARAL has to say:
| Dr. Bernard Nathanson |
We persuaded the media that the cause of permissive abortion was a liberal enlightened, sophisticated one. Knowing that if a true poll were taken, we would be soundly defeated, we simply fabricated the results of fictional polls. We announced to the media that we had taken polls and that 60% of Americans were in favour of permissive abortion. This is the tactic of the self-fulfilling lie. Few people care to be in the minority. We aroused enough sympathy to sell our program of permissive abortion by fabricating the number of illegal abortions done annually in the U.S. The actual figure was approaching 100,000 but the figure we gave to the media repeatedly was 1,000,000. Repeating the big lie often enough convinces the public. The number of women dying from illegal abortions was around 200-250 annually. The figure we constantly fed to the media was 10,000. These false figures took root in the consciousness of Americans convincing many that we needed to crack the abortion law. Another myth we fed to the public through the media was that legalising abortion would only mean that the abortions taking place illegally would then be done legally. In fact, of course, abortion is now being used as a primary method of birth control in the U.S. and the annual number of abortions has increased by 1500% since legalisation.
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Got that here: http://www.aboutabortions.com/Confess.html
NeoSaber
Renegade Map Maker at CnC Source
Animator/Compiler/Level Editor/Object Rigger/Programmer for Red Alert: A Path Beyond
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| Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types [message #178558 is a reply to message #178164] |
Wed, 09 November 2005 15:35 |
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Arcane1
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My Apologies to All: I got inundated yesterday and today... and haven't read through to reply. Just printed out the posts and will get back at it tonite.
-Arcane1
It is time to realize that we have tread where it was unwise. Bring them home before another 2000 die. Every day sooner is another service member not wounded, maimed, killed or away from home.
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| Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types [message #178560 is a reply to message #178164] |
Wed, 09 November 2005 16:11 |
johny roberts
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Hello all saw several topics of interest all ready..
On abortion should be legal. If it was legal then Nodbugger would have been prevented from ever living....
On Sadam ... Everyone needs a trial its the way of the world.
Peace out all old members and new Zgeek members........
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| Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types [message #178579 is a reply to message #178164] |
Wed, 09 November 2005 19:58 |
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Hydra
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Y'all shouldn't respond so much while I'm doing my homework. 
| SuperFlyingLiberalTool |
Yeah, DUH, but the cartoon is directly implying hypocrisy between a pro-choice and pro-environment stand.
Such an implication is, however, logically flawed in that the non-hippie is not giving birth to the condor eggs.
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The hippie is trying to protect the eggs because they are the eggs of an endangered species; the non-hippie is hungry and eats the eggs that were going to be discarded anyway.
By the commonly held definition of life that pro-choicers use (of whom we can assume the hippie is a part), those eggs are not yet alive, yet the hippie is trying to defend them as if they were living condors.
The cartoon correctly argues that such a stance is hypocritical.
How is that "logically flawed?"
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As far as "when life begins," I believe it begins in higher organisms when the brain develops and begins to function.
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Too bad science doesn't agree with you.
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Environmentalists don't protect the eggs of endangered species because it would be wrong for them to die, necessarily, but because the eggs will eventually become endangered species to refurnish the population that has been minimized by inbred Republican hunters.
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Yet another shining example of hypocrisy coming from you.
You give yourself such high praise in not using personal insults, then you say something like that... tsk tsk tsk.
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I do not deny that either a human embryo nor a condor egg will become a fully developed organism. The underlying principles behind abortion and protecting species, are however, entirely different.
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So you're okay with killing babies as long as they're human babies.
Gotcha.
| Ryan3k |
You missed my point, which was that the comic is just a stereotype, so it has no value in this discussion. It depicts the "liberal" as an ugly, haggardly-dressed and kempt hypocrite, while the "conservative" is clean-shaven, well-dressed, and handsome (comparatively).
If someone wants to point out a "paradox" in beliefs and add something to this discussion of actual worth, you can do without a childish and prejudiced cartoon.
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You apparently missed your own point:
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...Like how I described earlier in this thread how many conservatives don't believe in gun control, yet would support the illegalization of abortion.
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You just stereotyped most conservatives here as being against gun control while chastizing that cartoon for stereotypining most hippies as being pro-choice.
Let's face the facts, though:
-Most people who oppose most forms of gun control are more conservative in thought. Note how I never said you were wrong in saying many conservatives here oppose most forms of gun control--the problem is that you broke your own rule and stereotyped all of us as being anti-gun control (as well as anti-abortion).
-Most pro-choicers are liberal in thought. There is not one single pro-choice lobbyist group out there that supports conservative politicians that I can think of; nearly all of them support liberal candidates in elections (I probably could have left out the "nearly" as it would be a true stereotype, but I'm gonna leave it in as an escape hatch if someone comes up with a website called "BabyKillersforBush.com" or something ).
-Most hippies are dirty and unshaven; I know a few, and they're not all that pleasant to be around smell/sight-wise.
-Most hippies share liberal political beliefs. Haven't met a conservative hippy yet; probably one-of-his-kind if he actually exists.
The cartoon is obviously a charicature of the pro-life and pro-choice crowd, which will of course use the stereotypical images of both to represent them; otherwise, their identifications would not have been as easily conveyed to the cartoon's observer.
Though many stereotypes are untrue and unfair to many groups, they get their beginnings from many cases true to their definitions. Sad but true.
| SuperFlyingLiberalTool |
That last point is actually readily demonstrated in African countries where abortion is illegal so women just get abortions in back allies instead of the hospital. As a result, many die from poor operations.
I personally don't want that to happen in America.
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You're going to attribute abortion operation mishaps in Africa solely to its illegality?
Do you think those women would receive even half-decent operations if abortion was legal? They can barely receive a simple vaccination that doesn't somehow result in health complications! Healthcare in Africa sucks!
Legalizing abortion doesn't automatically mean those women receiving them now will suddenly get better healthcare as those people doing the back-alley abortions will be the same people performing the legal practice; they'll just be allowed to do it by the government for a cheaper price.
And abortion's illegality is a single factor among a myriad of others forcing those women to seek those abortions in the first place.
If you're going to try to use a real-life example, try to become a little more informed on what is actually happening with it.
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No, because a funny little thing called everyone having assault rifles to keep themselves from getting robbed would happen.
Shootings would skyrocket, and at the end of the day everyone would be much less safe.
So let's not do that.
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God, I hope you don't think Neosaber was actually being serious....
Walter Keith Koester: September 22, 1962 - March 15, 2005
God be with you, Uncle Wally.
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| Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types [message #178594 is a reply to message #178164] |
Wed, 09 November 2005 23:33 |
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Arcane1
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Wow. Not too sure where to catch up from, but I know that I'm going to stay away from the Hippie and whether or not the eggs should be eaten.
Historically, when abortion was illegal there was a serious problem with "back alley" doctors, and a high rate of harm or death to the women that resorted to them. Does that justify legalizing abortion? No, I don't think so at all. I liked the idea of taxation/education in conjunction with abortion, but I'm not sure the it would fly past the ACLU. I was friends with a Judge in downstate IL that decided that a woman that had becme pregnant 3 times, and had killed one of the children and hurt another shoudl have the Norplant long term birth control implanted. She was barely of functional IQ, and lived in a trailer park near a less than nice bar. Seems that she had a habit of frequenting the bar and winding up pregnant, repeatedly. The ACLU got involved and after the whole thing was over it was deemed that her right to get pregnant was primary. Go figure.
One of the things that I have learned is that in issues like this the law is often not broad enough to encompass the issue very well. Making legal decisions with set parameters is one thing, dealing with Humans and their individual needs is quite another. The ability of any law to cover the needs of many is suspect at best, and the more intimate the matter is the more difficult the decisions become. Abortion is probably the epitome of this issue facing the US right now. We aren't so much deciding whether or not abortion should be legal, we are deciding whether it is or is not acceptable morally. Inherant to that is that ultimately there will be those that decide and those that are imposed upon. We all know that it is wrong to speed, and that going 80 in a 65 zone is illegal. How many people believe that it is "wrong"? We all know that murder is illegal, but there are times when it is "right" like in self-defense, but wrong in "cold blood". Of course there are those that will argue that murder is wrong under any conditions.
All of the logical and rational discussion has covered aspects that I certainly have left off of my daily thinking, as I operate more in the emotional based realm than the logical and haven't argued this issue in many years (10+). Certainly not trying to sound condescending, I am pretty awed by the arguments.
What I would ask is to consider it emotionally. Consider the issue not as a legal question, but as a first person question that could apply to you, your girlfriend, your wife, sister or friend. If it was your sister, that was in her senior year and did a stupid thing, would you want her to have to not graduate? Would you want your parents to have to start raising kids again? Don't think of this as a legal issue, think of it as a human issue. It is easy from a detached perspective to say that "This is right, this is wrong..." but when you are in the position things change. Rather like the saying that "there are no athiests on a battlefield", we all learn the other aspects of the issue when we step in them.
It is late for me, and my reality has been inundated by client issues, so I am off to sleep. I appreciate all of your comments. Oh, and one thing, is there a Mod that can split this thread off or at least change the title? Sheesh, that one is getting old.
-Arcane1
It is time to realize that we have tread where it was unwise. Bring them home before another 2000 die. Every day sooner is another service member not wounded, maimed, killed or away from home.
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| Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types [message #178595 is a reply to message #178425] |
Wed, 09 November 2005 23:38 |
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warranto
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| Ryan3k wrote on Tue, 08 November 2005 19:33 |
| warranto |
The comic has nothing to do with endangered species.
The point of the comic (at least in the context of this thread) is when "life begins".
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You missed my point, which was that the comic is just a stereotype, so it has no value in this discussion. It depicts the "liberal" as an ugly, haggardly-dressed and kempt hypocrite, while the "conservative" is clean-shaven, well-dressed, and handsome (comparatively).
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Regardless of the depiction of the groups in the comic, I say again that's not what the comic was about.
It's about the hypocrasy (in the context of the thread) relating to saying that doing <whatever> to the unborn eggs of an endangered species is worse than doing <whatever> to human "eggs". A sort of "Save the birds, leave the eggs alone...women have a choice, it's not a human yet!"
[Updated on: Wed, 09 November 2005 23:38] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Abortion [split] [message #178610 is a reply to message #178164] |
Thu, 10 November 2005 01:09 |
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NeoSaber
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| Arcane1 wrote on Thu, 10 November 2005 01:33 |
Historically, when abortion was illegal there was a serious problem with "back alley" doctors, and a high rate of harm or death to the women that resorted to them.
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I've been trying to research the rate the last few days, and so far what I've found says the death rate was very low. One of the founders of NARAL now says out of 100,000 estimated illegal abortions a year, 200-250 women are believed to have died from complications due to abortions. He added that numbers indicating higher rates at that time were a complete fabrication created by the original founders of the pro-choice movement in America. They thought the ends justified the means. 
| Arcane1 wrote on Thu, 10 November 2005 01:33 |
What I would ask is to consider it emotionally. Consider the issue not as a legal question, but as a first person question that could apply to you, your girlfriend, your wife, sister or friend. If it was your sister, that was in her senior year and did a stupid thing, would you want her to have to not graduate? Would you want your parents to have to start raising kids again? Don't think of this as a legal issue, think of it as a human issue. It is easy from a detached perspective to say that "This is right, this is wrong..." but when you are in the position things change. Rather like the saying that "there are no athiests on a battlefield", we all learn the other aspects of the issue when we step in them.
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Personally, I consider myself to be along the lines of a cold-hearted, emotionless monster, but I'll give it a shot. 
Maybe I'm the wrong person to answer that hypothetical since I know my mom well enough to know that if my teenage sister somehow got pregnant, she would raise the child without question. Abortion would never even enter into her mind as a possibility. She'd never allow her grandchild to be killed for being an inconvenience.
After all, how would anyone feel if they were that unborn child, just given life only to be killed on the basis of being an inconvenience. To have people actually think that little of you, that you have nothing to contribute to society that would outweigh the inconvenience of your life...
And then how would a child feel during the actual abortion? They are ripped to pieces after all, without even an anesthetic. For a person's last moments in life to be spent being torn limb from limb, attempting to scream from the agony, yet unable to get enough air in their throat to make a sound... I'd certainly never want to go through that. I've literally had nightmares on that one. We'd never even subject a genocidal tyrant to that kind of execution, yet we frequently allow it to be done to someone whose only 'crime' was for their existence to be an inconvenience to another.
And that is what this scenario is, getting rid of a person for being an inconvenience. I used to worry that if society kept doing that, then it wouldn't be too long before someone had a modest proposal and actually meant it. I say I used to worry, because it has actually happened in the form of embryonic stem cell research. People sometimes blow off the 'slippery slope' argument, but we have such a perfect modern example its scary.
In the end, no matter how hard it is on the parents, or family, etc, it doesn't even come close to the suffering the child goes through. For the sake of abortion providers, karma better not be real, otherwise they are in for some serious pain.
NeoSaber
Renegade Map Maker at CnC Source
Animator/Compiler/Level Editor/Object Rigger/Programmer for Red Alert: A Path Beyond
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| Re: Abortion [split] [message #178614 is a reply to message #178164] |
Thu, 10 November 2005 02:10 |
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Kytten9
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abortion is wrong in my eyes. I know of several circumstances however that would not justify abortion, but have it become the lesser of two evils:
1/ health issues, choosing between the mother and the child.
2/ multiple births (i.e ivf treatment that has resulted in 8 fertilized eggs, but having to have 1 or more aborted to save the pregnancy and the lives of 6 or 7 babies, rather than leaving it to nature and losing all 8 of them)
3/ religion: In England alot of Asian cultures believe in blood laws, i.e the father has the right to kill a disobedient child...alot of Asian girls are at risk of their own fathers judgment and punishment if they have sex with the wrong person, so having a child to said person would have the same effect.
4/ rape: yes it could be a blessing, but the chances of the pregnancy succeeding anyway is minimal, the woman has to relive a trauma for 9 months....It's not right and it's not fair to her or the child.
5/ Financial problems: this is from personal experience. A friend of mine who already has a 2 yr old baby girl fell pregnant again and the father up and left at the first sign of trouble, she was no longer with the father of her first child, could barely get by on what money she had for her first child, it would have been irresponsible to have another, and I will tell you it's bullshit to disagree with this reason because you cannot wait 9 months to give up a baby, your financial life would have nosedived 6 months before that and both the mother, unborn child and 2 year old would be living in squaller, It bit her in the ass 12mths later when she realized the child she had aborted would have been 3mths old....
While I respect your opinions, I seriously doubt anyone who isn't female would have a clearer or more valid perspective on this. You don't have a uterus so you cannot understand the pressures of being a woman, same said as I cannot fully appreciate the pressures of being a guy.
You have a God given right to be stupid. Please do not abuse this right!
n00bstories renegade server mod.
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| Re: Abortion [split] [message #178637 is a reply to message #178610] |
Thu, 10 November 2005 07:21 |
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Arcane1
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| NeoSaber wrote on Thu, 10 November 2005 02:09 |
I've been trying to research the rate the last few days, and so far what I've found says the death rate was very low. One of the founders of NARAL now says out of 100,000 estimated illegal abortions a year, 200-250 women are believed to have died from complications due to abortions. He added that numbers indicating higher rates at that time were a complete fabrication created by the original founders of the pro-choice movement in America. They thought the ends justified the means.
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I will have to admit that aside from anecdotal evidence I don't have any actual numbers on that issue. Kudos to you for digging. One detail that I know of is that severe complications and suffereing permanent damage from botched abortions were an issue, again I don't have any real numbers.
| NeoSaber wrote on Thu, 10 November 2005 02:09 |
Personally, I consider myself to be along the lines of a cold-hearted, emotionless monster, but I'll give it a shot.
Maybe I'm the wrong person to answer that hypothetical since I know my mom well enough to know that if my teenage sister somehow got pregnant, she would raise the child without question. Abortion would never even enter into her mind as a possibility. She'd never allow her grandchild to be killed for being an inconvenience.
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Cold hearted or not, all I asked is that the suit be tried on, and that was certainly a fair go at it.
The issue with being able to know or predict people's reactions in situations I'll take you to task on though. There are few people in the world that surprise us as much by their actions as our family. You'd have to assume that your (hypothetical) sister would even tell her family beforehand and not make the decision alone. There are so many variables that predicting is tough. Look at how families often behave after a death and the whole matter of property/cash issues arise to see how absolutely nutty people get. This issue isn't too far from that emotionally and I have seen people do far differently than what I would have expected faced with a surprise pregancy.
| Kytten9 |
While I respect your opinions, I seriously doubt anyone who isn't female would have a clearer or more valid perspective on this. You don't have a uterus so you cannot understand the pressures of being a woman, same said as I cannot fully appreciate the pressures of being a guy.
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Here is a perspective that I was getting at earlier regarding a mostly Male legislature making the law. Granted Women can voet, etc., etc., but they are far under represented in any legal body. If we used the population as a standard, 50% or more of the lawmakers should be female, and half of the Presidents should have been Female. Clearly that isn't so.
It is time to realize that we have tread where it was unwise. Bring them home before another 2000 die. Every day sooner is another service member not wounded, maimed, killed or away from home.
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| Re: Abortion [split] [message #178640 is a reply to message #178164] |
Thu, 10 November 2005 08:02 |
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Goztow
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Goztoe |
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Just one point (didn't read all neather but found Crimson's point intresting): putting high taxes on abortion will make it a privilege (spelling?) for the rich while it is more than probable that it's the less rich people who are less informed about birth control, who might not having the money to do birth control (the pill and condoms still cost money) and who are most "touched" by an unwanted baby: think of getting a baby when you have bearly enough money from your job to feed yourself. Also think of the fact that you will probably need to give up your job because of the baby (someone needs to take care of it) when you're isolated.
So allthough it seemed quite a good solution to me at first read, I think that it will have a rather pervers effect this way. Your solution would work if all people had the same income though.
My personal opinion is that it should be possible in some cases but that people thinking of getting an abortion should be assisted in their choice by professional people so that they don't regret it afterwards.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: Abortion [split] [message #178642 is a reply to message #178614] |
Thu, 10 November 2005 08:21 |
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warranto
Messages: 2584
Registered: February 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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| Kytten9 wrote on Thu, 10 November 2005 04:105 |
Financial problems: this is from personal experience. A friend of mine who already has a 2 yr old baby girl fell pregnant again and the father up and left at the first sign of trouble, she was no longer with the father of her first child, could barely get by on what money she had for her first child, it would have been irresponsible to have another, and I will tell you it's bullshit to disagree with this reason because you cannot wait 9 months to give up a baby, your financial life would have nosedived 6 months before that and both the mother, unborn child and 2 year old would be living in squaller, It bit her in the ass 12mths later when she realized the child she had aborted would have been 3mths old....
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This I do have problem with. I also have absolutely NO sympathy whatsoever for the prediciment the woman is in. SHE chose to have sex, why should someone (or, if you believe it, the potential of someone) have to suffer for her stupidity?
If you don't want to become pregnant, DON'T HAVE SEX.
[Updated on: Thu, 10 November 2005 08:21] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Abortion [split] [message #178648 is a reply to message #178642] |
Thu, 10 November 2005 09:26 |
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Kytten9
Messages: 332
Registered: October 2003
Location: Manchester, England
Karma: 0
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| warranto wrote on Thu, 10 November 2005 10:21 |
| Kytten9 wrote on Thu, 10 November 2005 04:105 |
Financial problems: this is from personal experience. A friend of mine who already has a 2 yr old baby girl fell pregnant again and the father up and left at the first sign of trouble, she was no longer with the father of her first child, could barely get by on what money she had for her first child, it would have been irresponsible to have another, and I will tell you it's bullshit to disagree with this reason because you cannot wait 9 months to give up a baby, your financial life would have nosedived 6 months before that and both the mother, unborn child and 2 year old would be living in squaller, It bit her in the ass 12mths later when she realized the child she had aborted would have been 3mths old....
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This I do have problem with. I also have absolutely NO sympathy whatsoever for the prediciment the woman is in. SHE chose to have sex, why should someone (or, if you believe it, the potential of someone) have to suffer for her stupidity?
If you don't want to become pregnant, DON'T HAVE SEX.
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remind me to throw that comment in your face if you ever fuck up and complain and trust me, even parents that planned to have their babies complain, resent and even dwell on the times they didn't have kids.
But then again it wouldn't matter to you would it? Men can walk away when women get pregnant, they don't lose anything in doing so either, where as the women have no life, lose their figure, have problems from that day forth with bladder control, lose reputation coz she is a "whore", that's why you have no sympathy, because it cannot happen to you and will not happen to you, you can just sit idly by on the sidelines, like most men do. Ignorance is bliss isn't it?!
I do sympathize with her, she didn't ask the father of her first child to suddenly wake up one day and decide he no longer wanted to have a child or a girlfriend, women do stupid things when they feel low, so women become promiscuous(have sex alot) , some binge eat, some commit suicide, all because men decide they don't want responsibility.
[/male hate rant] I'm sorry, I'm hoping the guy I'm currently dating changes my mind about men, but I doubt it!
You have a God given right to be stupid. Please do not abuse this right!
n00bstories renegade server mod.
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| Re: Abortion [split] [message #178650 is a reply to message #178164] |
Thu, 10 November 2005 09:41 |
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warranto
Messages: 2584
Registered: February 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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hey, even you admit
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it would have been irresponsible to have another
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So, if that was the case, my point stands. If you don't want a kid (or in this case, can't support a kid),
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could barely get by on what money she had for her first child
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don't go around having sex.
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remind me to throw that comment in your face if you ever fuck up and complain
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I hope you would. It may knock some sense into me.
Simply put, if you are not prepared to handle the concequenses of what MAY occur, don't do what you were planning on doing.
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that's why you have no sympathy, because it cannot happen to you and will not happen to you, you can just sit idly by on the sidelines, like most men do. Ignorance is bliss isn't it?!
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I can take the stuff before this as a rant, however this is just a plain insult to me.
I have no sympathy becase she got herself into the situtaion of being pregnant when she couldn't even support herself with the "money she had from her first kid."
While I know it will not happen to me (for differet reasons that I'm sure your thinking of), that does not mean I'm ignorant of anything.
Doing something simply because you're depressed is no excuse to do it. Having been through a depression I know this quite well.
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| Re: Abortion [split] [message #178657 is a reply to message #178164] |
Thu, 10 November 2005 10:20 |
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Jecht
Messages: 3156
Registered: September 2004
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars) |
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multiple contraceptives. The Male or Female should not be the only one with protection. The Pill and a Condom will reduce the chances significantly. As for the man that woman had sex with. He is the worst kind of person and cannot be called a Dad or a "Man" even. He is a little boy with no regard to anyone but himself. I'm sorry for your friend, but it is still HALF of her fault. It is no reason to deny a child of their life.
[Updated on: Thu, 10 November 2005 10:21] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Abortion [split] [message #178681 is a reply to message #178637] |
Thu, 10 November 2005 13:32 |
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NeoSaber
Messages: 336
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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| Arcane1 wrote on Thu, 10 November 2005 09:21 |
The issue with being able to know or predict people's reactions in situations I'll take you to task on though. There are few people in the world that surprise us as much by their actions as our family. You'd have to assume that your (hypothetical) sister would even tell her family beforehand and not make the decision alone. There are so many variables that predicting is tough. Look at how families often behave after a death and the whole matter of property/cash issues arise to see how absolutely nutty people get. This issue isn't too far from that emotionally and I have seen people do far differently than what I would have expected faced with a surprise pregancy.
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Wouldn't that be one more reason to outlaw abortion though? If my sister somehow got pregnant, and I have a hard time believing she'd do something stupid but for the sake of the hypothetical I continue, and she was confused and didn't know what to do, or didn't know if she could even turn to her parents, then shouldn't we eliminate abortion as a possibility. If someone is upset and confused, it's a terrible crime to burden them with deciding whether to kill their child. They need some support, emotionally, financially, etc to get through the life altering event. Leaving abortion legal for this reason is like giving guns to people suicidally depressed and then asking them to decide for themselves. A person doesn't have to be suicidal to know that's wrong.
When people become emotionally involved in something, because it happens to them, they often aren't thinking clearly as they can't see things from a detached perspective. They get tied up in what's in front of them and miss the obvious. Laws can help act as a guide in these cases as you have it written, "This is wrong, no matter how right you think it feels at the moment."
Granted, as a man I can't understand entirely what a pregnant woman goes through. However, I'm the oldest of 4 children. My first brother was born when I was 5, my sister when I was 10, and my second brother when I was 16. I've been able to observe my parents' reactions to pregnancy several times, at different points in my life.
If I recall correctly, both my sister and second brother were 'unexpected' pregnancies. Especially my second brother, as my mom was in her early 40's at that point and never thought she'd have another child. Financially speaking, at both times my family wasn't doing well. Yes, we had a home, but that was about it. No medical insurance, no savings, couldn't even afford a monthly cable bill at one point. My father didn't really have steady employment during those times, at one point he was employed by a construction company that pretty much fell apart, and then had a job that once it was going well, the owner decided to close the business and retire. My parents were somewhat estranged from their parents, and didn't have many people to turn to when they needed help.
Health wise, these pregnancies were equally troubling for my mother. She'd suffered severe postpartum psychosis after my first brother was born, and it was likely more children would cause her to relapse. I doubt she wanted to risk having a break down and killing her kids or something. She did have a relapse after my sister was born, although it ended up being no where near as bad as what had happened the first time.
Despite all that, my mother would never even consider an abortion. My father stood by her through everything, I doubt the thought of leaving us ever entered his mind. Parents teach their kids by example, yet my father's parents had divorced when he was a kid, so he never had a father in his life to serve as an example of fatherhood. As a matter of fact, his only example in life was that men leave, yet he refused to follow that example. When my parents were first married, my mother's parents practically disowned her (although they did make amends eventually), as they disapproved of my father so much. They literally let my parents live on the street, despite them asking for help, when they couldn't afford an apartment. My father's mother died of cancer when I was very young, and like I said, my father barely knew his own father. They didn't have many people they could turn to for help, they were faced with the 'bad times', but they didn't go against their principles to take the 'easy way' out.
It's my mother who really hammered it into my head that abortion is immoral, and never should be allowed under any circumstance. She is unrelenting in that, even when I posed a hypothetical like "what would I do if I was married and my wife's life was in danger?". So, despite being a man, my perspective on abortion is greatly influenced by what my mother has said and done in her life. I may never be able to experience what it means to be a pregnant woman, but my mother has and she tells me all the time (and I mean all the time, as if I didn't understand it yet ) that abortion is immoral and wrong no matter the circumstances. She's stood by that even when things got bad for her, and despite the death threats she used to get from some 'pro-choice' people when she did volunteer work for pro-life groups.
| Kytten9 |
While I respect your opinions, I seriously doubt anyone who isn't female would have a clearer or more valid perspective on this. You don't have a uterus so you cannot understand the pressures of being a woman, same said as I cannot fully appreciate the pressures of being a guy.
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Interesting perspective I ran across the other day:
Men are Responsible for the Abortion Problem
To quote a part:
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Wantonly destroying one's children is not a choice that most women make enthusiastically. In fact, most women who have had abortions say that they would choose to keep their babies if they felt that they could do so. Women who find themselves in the crisis pregnancy feel that for practical reasons they have no choice but abortion. And, in nearly all cases, men are at fault.
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Letting women have abortions because they've been abandoned isn't a solution to the problem, it only makes the situation worse. Men think they can make women get abortions, or just abandon them in part because things like abortion are legal. Society needs to help people, not let them destroy themselves or others.
NeoSaber
Renegade Map Maker at CnC Source
Animator/Compiler/Level Editor/Object Rigger/Programmer for Red Alert: A Path Beyond
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