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Re: Abortion [split] [message #178610 is a reply to message #178164]

Thu, 10 November 2005 01:09

NeoSaber
Messages: 336
Registered: February 2003

Karma:

Recruit

Arcane1 wrote on Thu, 10 November 2005 01:33

Historically, when abortion was illegal there was a serious problem with "back alley" doctors, and a high rate of harm or death to the women that resorted to them.

I've been trying to research the rate the last few days, and so far what I've found says the death rate was very low. One of the founders of NARAL now says out of 100,000 estimated illegal abortions a year, 200-250 women are believed to have died from complications due to abortions. He added that numbers indicating higher rates at that time were a complete fabrication created by the original founders of the pro-choice movement in America. They thought the ends justified the means. Huh

Arcane1 wrote on Thu, 10 November 2005 01:33

What I would ask is to consider it emotionally. Consider the issue not as a legal question, but as a first person question that could apply to you, your girlfriend, your wife, sister or friend. If it was your sister, that was in her senior year and did a stupid thing, would you want her to have to not graduate? Would you want your parents to have to start raising kids again? Don't think of this as a legal issue, think of it as a human issue. It is easy from a detached perspective to say that "This is right, this is wrong..." but when you are in the position things change. Rather like the saying that "there are no athiests on a battlefield", we all learn the other aspects of the issue when we step in them.

Personally, I consider myself to be along the lines of a cold-hearted, emotionless monster, but I'll give it a shot. Big Grin

Maybe I'm the wrong person to answer that hypothetical since I know my mom well enough to know that if my teenage sister somehow got pregnant, she would raise the child without question. Abortion would never even enter into her mind as a possibility. She'd never allow her grandchild to be killed for being an inconvenience.

After all, how would anyone feel if they were that unborn child, just given life only to be killed on the basis of being an inconvenience. To have people actually think that little of you, that you have nothing to contribute to society that would outweigh the inconvenience of your life...

And then how would a child feel during the actual abortion? They are ripped to pieces after all, without even an anesthetic. For a person's last moments in life to be spent being torn limb from limb, attempting to scream from the agony, yet unable to get enough air in their throat to make a sound... I'd certainly never want to go through that. I've literally had nightmares on that one. We'd never even subject a genocidal tyrant to that kind of execution, yet we frequently allow it to be done to someone whose only 'crime' was for their existence to be an inconvenience to another.

And that is what this scenario is, getting rid of a person for being an inconvenience. I used to worry that if society kept doing that, then it wouldn't be too long before someone had a modest proposal and actually meant it. I say I used to worry, because it has actually happened in the form of embryonic stem cell research. People sometimes blow off the 'slippery slope' argument, but we have such a perfect modern example its scary.

In the end, no matter how hard it is on the parents, or family, etc, it doesn't even come close to the suffering the child goes through. For the sake of abortion providers, karma better not be real, otherwise they are in for some serious pain.

NeoSaber

Renegade Map Maker at CnC Source
Animator/Compiler/Level Editor/Object Rigger/Programmer for Red Alert: A Path Beyond

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[Message index]

		Abortion [split] By: cheesesoda on Sun, 06 November 2005 16:41
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: Ryan3k on Sun, 06 November 2005 17:44
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: cheesesoda on Sun, 06 November 2005 18:12
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: swahbuckler on Sun, 06 November 2005 18:30
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: Hydra on Sun, 06 November 2005 18:41
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: cheesesoda on Sun, 06 November 2005 18:49
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: swahbuckler on Sun, 06 November 2005 17:45
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: Hydra on Sun, 06 November 2005 18:21
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: warranto on Sun, 06 November 2005 19:32
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: cheesesoda on Sun, 06 November 2005 19:48
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: warranto on Sun, 06 November 2005 20:12
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: cheesesoda on Sun, 06 November 2005 20:45
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: warranto on Mon, 07 November 2005 10:00
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: Hydra on Sun, 06 November 2005 20:48
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: Arcane1 on Sun, 06 November 2005 20:55
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: Hydra on Sun, 06 November 2005 22:14
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: cheesesoda on Sun, 06 November 2005 22:16
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: Dundasbro on Sun, 06 November 2005 22:57
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: cheesesoda on Sun, 06 November 2005 21:17
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: Dundasbro on Sun, 06 November 2005 21:35
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: Jecht on Sun, 06 November 2005 22:16
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: NeoSaber on Sun, 06 November 2005 23:32
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: Hydra on Mon, 07 November 2005 01:40
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: Jecht on Mon, 07 November 2005 08:17
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: Crimson on Mon, 07 November 2005 10:38
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: NeoSaber on Mon, 07 November 2005 11:26
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: mrpirate on Mon, 07 November 2005 09:17
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: Seeker on Mon, 07 November 2005 15:13
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: Arcane1 on Mon, 07 November 2005 15:22
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: NeoSaber on Mon, 07 November 2005 16:30
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: Hydra on Mon, 07 November 2005 16:42
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: cheesesoda on Mon, 07 November 2005 16:04
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: NukeIt15 on Mon, 07 November 2005 16:49
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: Arcane1 on Mon, 07 November 2005 17:56
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: Jecht on Mon, 07 November 2005 18:38
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: NeoSaber on Mon, 07 November 2005 18:43
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: NeoSaber on Mon, 07 November 2005 17:09
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: Ryan3k on Mon, 07 November 2005 17:25
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: Hydra on Mon, 07 November 2005 17:42
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: Doitle on Tue, 08 November 2005 06:33
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: Jecht on Tue, 08 November 2005 08:47
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: Ryan3k on Tue, 08 November 2005 06:52
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: Ryan3k on Tue, 08 November 2005 17:33
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: Doitle on Tue, 08 November 2005 19:42
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: warranto on Wed, 09 November 2005 23:38
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: warranto on Tue, 08 November 2005 07:28
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: SuperFlyingEngi on Tue, 08 November 2005 15:45
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: Jecht on Tue, 08 November 2005 15:47
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: SuperFlyingEngi on Tue, 08 November 2005 16:00
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: NukeIt15 on Tue, 08 November 2005 16:38
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: Jecht on Tue, 08 November 2005 17:24
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: Doitle on Tue, 08 November 2005 17:28
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: SuperFlyingEngi on Tue, 08 November 2005 18:00
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: NeoSaber on Tue, 08 November 2005 18:36
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: SuperFlyingEngi on Tue, 08 November 2005 19:45
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: NeoSaber on Tue, 08 November 2005 20:37
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: Doitle on Tue, 08 November 2005 19:47
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: SuperFlyingEngi on Tue, 08 November 2005 19:56
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: Doitle on Tue, 08 November 2005 19:58
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: Crimson on Tue, 08 November 2005 20:03
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: SuperFlyingEngi on Tue, 08 November 2005 20:22
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: Arcane1 on Wed, 09 November 2005 15:35
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: johny roberts on Wed, 09 November 2005 16:11
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: Hydra on Wed, 09 November 2005 19:58
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: SuperFlyingEngi on Tue, 15 November 2005 15:59
		Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types By: Arcane1 on Wed, 09 November 2005 23:33
		Re: Abortion [split] By: NeoSaber on Thu, 10 November 2005 01:09
		Re: Abortion [split] By: Arcane1 on Thu, 10 November 2005 07:21
		Re: Abortion [split] By: NeoSaber on Thu, 10 November 2005 13:32
		Re: Abortion [split] By: Arcane1 on Thu, 10 November 2005 16:10
		Re: Abortion [split] By: NeoSaber on Thu, 10 November 2005 17:16
		Re: Abortion [split] By: Kytten9 on Thu, 10 November 2005 02:10
		Re: Abortion [split] By: warranto on Thu, 10 November 2005 08:21
		Re: Abortion [split] By: Kytten9 on Thu, 10 November 2005 09:26
		Re: Abortion [split] By: Goztow on Thu, 10 November 2005 08:02
		Re: Abortion [split] By: Arcane1 on Thu, 10 November 2005 16:04
		Re: Abortion [split] By: warranto on Thu, 10 November 2005 09:41
		Re: Abortion [split] By: Kytten9 on Thu, 10 November 2005 17:26
		Re: Abortion [split] By: Goztow on Thu, 10 November 2005 09:56
		Re: Abortion [split] By: Jecht on Thu, 10 November 2005 10:20
		Re: Abortion [split] By: Jecht on Thu, 10 November 2005 16:36
		Re: Abortion [split] By: Arcane1 on Fri, 11 November 2005 14:10
		Re: Abortion [split] By: warranto on Thu, 10 November 2005 19:08
		Re: Abortion [split] By: Jecht on Thu, 10 November 2005 20:12
		Re: Abortion [split] By: Hydra on Thu, 10 November 2005 20:53
		Re: Abortion [split] By: cheesesoda on Thu, 10 November 2005 22:35
		Re: Abortion [split] By: Arcane1 on Fri, 11 November 2005 14:26
		Re: Abortion [split] By: Jecht on Fri, 11 November 2005 15:09
		Re: Abortion [split] By: Arcane1 on Fri, 11 November 2005 15:16
		Re: Abortion [split] By: cheesesoda on Fri, 11 November 2005 14:56
		Re: Abortion [split] By: Arcane1 on Fri, 11 November 2005 15:13
		Re: Abortion [split] By: cheesesoda on Fri, 11 November 2005 16:20
		Re: Abortion [split] By: Hydra on Fri, 11 November 2005 20:17
		Re: Abortion [split] By: Arcane1 on Sat, 12 November 2005 06:39
		Re: Abortion [split] By: cheesesoda on Sat, 12 November 2005 07:58
		Re: Abortion [split] By: Arcane1 on Sat, 12 November 2005 21:58
		Re: Abortion [split] By: Jecht on Sat, 12 November 2005 22:13
		Re: Abortion [split] By: Hydra on Sun, 13 November 2005 00:43
		Re: Abortion [split] By: cheesesoda on Fri, 11 November 2005 21:24
		Re: Abortion [split] By: Arcane1 on Sun, 13 November 2005 09:28
		Re: Abortion [split] By: NeoSaber on Sun, 13 November 2005 12:58
		Re: Abortion [split] By: Arcane1 on Sun, 13 November 2005 13:39
		Re: Abortion [split] By: Hydra on Sun, 13 November 2005 11:04
		Re: Abortion [split] By: cheesesoda on Sun, 13 November 2005 11:28
		Re: Abortion [split] By: Aircraftkiller on Sun, 13 November 2005 13:17
		Re: Abortion [split] By: SuperFlyingEngi on Tue, 15 November 2005 16:03
		Re: Abortion [split] By: Javaxcx on Wed, 16 November 2005 11:49
		Re: Abortion [split] By: Hydra on Tue, 15 November 2005 21:15
		Re: Abortion [split] By: SuperFlyingEngi on Wed, 16 November 2005 16:11
		Re: Abortion [split] By: Arcane1 on Thu, 17 November 2005 00:11
		Re: Abortion [split] By: cheesesoda on Thu, 17 November 2005 13:55
		Re: Abortion [split] By: SuperFlyingEngi on Thu, 17 November 2005 14:31
		Re: Abortion [split] By: Jecht on Wed, 16 November 2005 16:35
		Re: Abortion [split] By: SuperFlyingEngi on Wed, 16 November 2005 17:26
		Re: Abortion [split] By: Jecht on Wed, 16 November 2005 18:46
		Re: Abortion [split] By: SuperFlyingEngi on Wed, 16 November 2005 21:04
		Re: Abortion [split] By: Hydra on Thu, 17 November 2005 16:15
		Re: Abortion [split] By: SuperFlyingEngi on Thu, 17 November 2005 18:05
		Re: Abortion [split] By: Arcane1 on Sun, 20 November 2005 02:18

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