Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » Abortion [split]
| Abortion [split] [message #178164] |
Sun, 06 November 2005 16:41  |
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cheesesoda
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Location: Jackson, Michigan
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| Seeker wrote on Sun, 06 November 2005 18:21 |
My personal views in regards to Nodbugger is that he petitioned for members of this board to come to ours and do likewise, it seems only fair that we can return the favour.
In regards to Saddam, as I pointed out over at zgeek, if you kill Saddam he will become a martyr to the cause.
The hardcore fundamentalists will forever use him as a shining example of western abuse to the muslim world as they continue to recruit young foolish men and women to do Allahs bidding.
Stand him up to the world and prove he is guilty of murdering not only his own people but many other muslims from the region then you no longer have a powerful weapon against the west, you have a scum bag that even Muslims would despise.
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As you see, we didn't jump to go assist him on your forums because we, well, agree with you about Nodbugger. There's really no need for this many people to come over here for this one stupid topic.
I guess I can agree with that. That would stop a few, but that would probably also endanger the prosecutor, jurors, and the judge's life considering that they'd feel that he was falsely accused and charged.
Edit: About that thread with Nodbugger quotes: "So women have the right to choose who lives and who dies? What fucking sense does that make? Once that sperm hits that egg it is no longer a womans body. she is just a hotel for 9 months. " <--- I completely agree. A woman has no right to kill the child because she is too irresponsible with her body. Give the baby up for adoption, the least you could do is let the child live not let the child die because the mother is a whore.
whoa.
[Updated on: Sun, 06 November 2005 16:47] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types [message #178172 is a reply to message #178164] |
Sun, 06 November 2005 17:44  |
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Ryan3k
Messages: 363
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Location: USA
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Jball: So, a woman who has premarital sex is a whore?
What about a man who has premarital sex?
Do you not agree that if a woman should have to carry a child for 9 months, the father should have an equal responsibility to maintain?
The final question is, how to go about doing this?
A Path Beyond
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| Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types [message #178175 is a reply to message #178172] |
Sun, 06 November 2005 18:12 |
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cheesesoda
Messages: 6507
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Location: Jackson, Michigan
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| Ryan3k wrote on Sun, 06 November 2005 18:44 |
Jball: So, a woman who has premarital sex is a whore?
What about a man who has premarital sex?
Do you not agree that if a woman should have to carry a child for 9 months, the father should have an equal responsibility to maintain?
The final question is, how to go about doing this?
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I was just being mean-spirited when I said that. It doesn't qualify her as a "whore", but it does make her irresponsible.
Yes, the father should share equal responsibility. If there was a law governing this, he should pay for clothing for the pregnant mother, or at least pay a certain amount of month for living expenses that a pregnant woman has.
While rape and abuse is a horrible thing, I still don't see how the appropriate action is to kill the child. I understand that every day of the pregnancy is another reminder of that horrible experience, but in the bigger picture, this could very well change someone's life for the better if the mother was to put the child up for adoption.
Just because someone's disabled doesn't mean that they can't be happy. Disabled people can often times be the most happy of people because they're thankful for what they have and often times don't take things for granted. Mentally retarded kids are children forever, they're always laughing and playing. Sure, it may be a hassle to take care of, but the child's still a person, and to take away their right to life is wrong, no matter what the circumstances are.
whoa.
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| Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types [message #178177 is a reply to message #178164] |
Sun, 06 November 2005 18:21 |
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Hydra
Messages: 827
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Location: Atlanta, GA
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| warranto wrote on Sun, 06 November 2005 16:11 |
Too late, he did that quite a while ago. One thing that we learned is that it's pointless to argue with him. He's delusioned himslf to the point that he can never be wrong. It's saddening, really.
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It's kinda funny; we have Nodbugger for the conservative side of the spectrum, and we have SuperFlyingLiberalTool for the liberal side of the spectrum.
| Seeker |
In regards to Saddam, as I pointed out over at zgeek, if you kill Saddam he will become a martyr to the cause.
The hardcore fundamentalists will forever use him as a shining example of western abuse to the muslim world as they continue to recruit young foolish men and women to do Allahs bidding.
Stand him up to the world and prove he is guilty of murdering not only his own people but many other muslims from the region then you no longer have a powerful weapon against the west, you have a scum bag that even Muslims would despise.
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Saddam's already a martyr in their eyes; any conviction he receives they will view as a false conclusion that the United States elicited from the judge.
They view him as an innocent prisoner unjustly held by the United States on holy muslim land. Any proof you show them about all the atrocities he has committed in the past they will view as falsified lies fabricated by the American propaganda machine.
Saddam will be eternally innocent in their eyes; no trial will change that.
| swahbuckler |
If the child is likely to be born disabled?
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My sister was born disabled, yet she has touched more lives than ever possible with the way she has overcome all the crap she has in all the years of her life.
Why should the possibility of disability be a reason to end a life before it has a chance to live?
Walter Keith Koester: September 22, 1962 - March 15, 2005
God be with you, Uncle Wally.
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[Updated on: Sun, 06 November 2005 18:34] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types [message #178178 is a reply to message #178175] |
Sun, 06 November 2005 18:30 |
swahbuckler
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Registered: November 2005
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| j_ball430 wrote on Mon, 07 November 2005 01:12 |
| Ryan3k wrote on Sun, 06 November 2005 18:44 |
Jball: So, a woman who has premarital sex is a whore?
What about a man who has premarital sex?
Do you not agree that if a woman should have to carry a child for 9 months, the father should have an equal responsibility to maintain?
The final question is, how to go about doing this?
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I was just being mean-spirited when I said that. It doesn't qualify her as a "whore", but it does make her irresponsible.
Yes, the father should share equal responsibility. If there was a law governing this, he should pay for clothing for the pregnant mother, or at least pay a certain amount of month for living expenses that a pregnant woman has.
While rape and abuse is a horrible thing, I still don't see how the appropriate action is to kill the child. I understand that every day of the pregnancy is another reminder of that horrible experience, but in the bigger picture, this could very well change someone's life for the better if the mother was to put the child up for adoption.
Just because someone's disabled doesn't mean that they can't be happy. Disabled people can often times be the most happy of people because they're thankful for what they have and often times don't take things for granted. Mentally retarded kids are children forever, they're always laughing and playing. Sure, it may be a hassle to take care of, but the child's still a person, and to take away their right to life is wrong, no matter what the circumstances are.
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Whilst I don't endorse abortion, I do believe the woman has a right to make that choice as it is her body after all. The foetus is not a child.
I am trying to draw other examples of abortion, other than the woman is a whore.
What about if carrying a baby, is detrimental to the womans health?
Abortion is not something that should be outlawed.
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| Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types [message #178179 is a reply to message #178178] |
Sun, 06 November 2005 18:41 |
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Hydra
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| swahbuckler wrote on Sun, 06 November 2005 20:30 |
Whilst I don't endorse abortion, I do believe the woman has a right to make that choice as it is her body after all. The foetus is not a child.
I am trying to draw other examples of abortion, other than the woman is a whore.
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Hard drugs like cocaine and heroine are still illegal in the United States; we tell everyone that they cannot use those drugs. Using the argument of "a woman has a right to do what she wants with her body," though, these drugs must be legalized and drinking age laws must be repealed as they remove the right people have to do what they want with their own bodies.
We say she cannot take drugs or drink before the age of twenty-one, so does she really have the right to do what she wants with her body?
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What about if carrying a baby, is detrimental to the womans health?
Abortion is not something that should be outlawed.
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Depends on just how detrimental.
If carrying the child is life-threatening for whatever reason, or if the doctors are afraid the mother could possibly die when the child is born, then, and only then, should abortion be allowed. When extenuating medical conditions threaten the life of the mother and/or the child, I can accept abortion as being an option for the parents to consider.
Walter Keith Koester: September 22, 1962 - March 15, 2005
God be with you, Uncle Wally.
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[Updated on: Sun, 06 November 2005 18:46] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types [message #178197 is a reply to message #178164] |
Sun, 06 November 2005 20:45 |
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cheesesoda
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Yes, and it really all does depend on the mental capacity of the mother, but I just still can't let go the idea of a child being killed simply because the mother can't deal with a memory. I'm not female, and I haven't been raped, so I can't say that I'd know how it feels, but I just still can't imagine that killing a child is going to make the situation any better. It's all about the bigger picture. Let the woman/girl be the bigger person and be strong and show that she can beat this issue and deliver a child, and if necessary, give it up for adoption so that a loving family can give the child the love that it deserves. It's not the child's fault for the girl/woman getting raped (not her fault either), but the mother can still live her life past that incident, while to kill the child, it has no chance to live.
whoa.
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| Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types [message #178198 is a reply to message #178164] |
Sun, 06 November 2005 20:48 |
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Hydra
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That is why the first and most important thing that girl needs is support, comfort, counselling, and help; her first rational reaction should never be to get an abortion, because an abortion can be equally devastating on both physical and psychological levels.
She needs help and support from her parents and spiritual leaders first and foremost; only then should they even consider abortion (it should go without saying that a teenager should get parental and doctoral approval prior to receiving an abortion; not everyone can get an abortion for medical reasons, I'm sure; if done incorrectly, the abortion could end up taking the lives of both the child and the mother).
To sum it up:
Abortion for medical reasons--acceptable, but all measures should be taken to save both mother's and child's lives, leaving abortion as an absolute last resort; I think most parents would agree with me.
Abortion in response to a rape--no definite answer as each case must be approached individually. Getting an abortion or giving birth and then putting the child up for adoption are extremely, and possibly eaqually, psychologically and physically devastating decisions.
Despite the child's painful conception, that girl is its mother, and nothing can change that. She must make the choice whether to let her child live or die. The only other people who can even fathom making such a decision are judges deciding murder trials.
This kid hasn't even had a chance to live yet, let alone commit any crime other than simply existing. How can a teenage girl possibly be able to make that kind of a decision?
If I haven't made it obvious enough, I personally support the choice to allow the child to live and have the mother either put it up for adoption or embark on raising it herself, because at least the child will have the potential to live a good life; no one can know what kind of life it would have led if it wasn't allowed to live in the first place.
Of course, my personal (and inexperienced) opinion on whether a girl should abort or adopt is irrelevant since the law is only concerned with whether the choice to abort should be allowed in the first place. It is my belief that not only is that child a human being and have a right to live, but that the psychological and physical damage done to the mother are far too great to allow it to exist as a viable option for someone caught in such a hellacious situation.
EDIT: About the memory thing: she is going to remember being raped and becoming pregnant no matter what. Killing the product of that rape won't erase the memory and will in fact give the girl an equally devastating memory of killing an innocent human being.
Walter Keith Koester: September 22, 1962 - March 15, 2005
God be with you, Uncle Wally.
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[Updated on: Sun, 06 November 2005 20:52] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types [message #178201 is a reply to message #178198] |
Sun, 06 November 2005 20:55 |
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Arcane1
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Here's a point that anyone that thinks that they have a right to make this decision for someone (a woman's) well being:
If it was your body, would you appreciate the decision being made for you?
Let's see a poll put up on that one. I know that someone trying to tell me what to do with my body is going to have a tough go at it.
Anyone disagree?
It is time to realize that we have tread where it was unwise. Bring them home before another 2000 die. Every day sooner is another service member not wounded, maimed, killed or away from home.
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| Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types [message #178205 is a reply to message #178164] |
Sun, 06 November 2005 21:35 |
Dundasbro
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I personally believe that it should be the womans choice, it is her body after all. But I can accept the views of the conservatives in this forum also and i would have to say you make a good point. It's been so long since i've experienced a lucid conservative argument... It's actually kinda nice... 
Nodbugger is an idiot
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| Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types [message #178210 is a reply to message #178201] |
Sun, 06 November 2005 22:14 |
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Hydra
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Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Arcane1 wrote on Sun, 06 November 2005 22:55 |
Here's a point that anyone that thinks that they have a right to make this decision for someone (a woman's) well being:
If it was your body, would you appreciate the decision being made for you?
Let's see a poll put up on that one. I know that someone trying to tell me what to do with my body is going to have a tough go at it.
Anyone disagree?
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The government has already decided that I can't drink alcohol until I'm 21; the government has already decided that I can't smoke crack; the government has already decided that I can't drive 85 mph in a 55 mph speed limit; the government has already decided that I can't bring a fully-automatic M249 machine gun with me to school for show-and-tell.
No, I don't appreciate those decisions already being made for me, but they have for everyone's well-being. If I drive 30 miles over the speed limit drunk and high on crack with a fully loaded machine gun in my back seat just waiting to discharge, chances are I'm about to very seriously hurt myself or someone else.
That's why we have laws in the first place--to keep people from infringing on the rights of others to do whatever the hell they want (provided "whatever the hell they want" doesn't mean they infringe on the rights of others).
By giving a woman the ability to abort, she is in essence receiving the ability to destroy another human life. Doesn't that human have a natural right to live, though? Isn't the right simply to exist outlined in just about every founding document upon which this country was built?
Walter Keith Koester: September 22, 1962 - March 15, 2005
God be with you, Uncle Wally.
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| Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types [message #178211 is a reply to message #178210] |
Sun, 06 November 2005 22:16 |
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cheesesoda
Messages: 6507
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Location: Jackson, Michigan
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| Hydra wrote on Sun, 06 November 2005 23:14 |
| Arcane1 wrote on Sun, 06 November 2005 22:55 |
Here's a point that anyone that thinks that they have a right to make this decision for someone (a woman's) well being:
If it was your body, would you appreciate the decision being made for you?
Let's see a poll put up on that one. I know that someone trying to tell me what to do with my body is going to have a tough go at it.
Anyone disagree?
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The government has already decided that I can't drink alcohol until I'm 21; the government has already decided that I can't smoke crack; the government has already decided that I can't drive 85 mph in a 55 mph speed limit; the government has already decided that I can't bring a fully-automatic M249 machine gun with me to school for show-and-tell.
No, I don't appreciate those decisions already being made for me, but they have for everyone's well-being. If I drive 30 miles over the speed limit drunk and high on crack with a fully loaded machine gun in my back seat just waiting to discharge, chances are I'm about to very seriously hurt myself or someone else.
That's why we have laws in the first place--to keep people from infringing on the rights of others to do whatever the hell they want (provided "whatever the hell they want" doesn't mean they infringe on the rights of others).
By giving a woman the ability to abort, she is in essence receiving the ability to destroy another human life. Doesn't that human have a natural right to live, though? Isn't the right simply to exist outlined in just about every founding document upon which this country was built?
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I like that response better than mine. 
whoa.
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| Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types [message #178224 is a reply to message #178164] |
Sun, 06 November 2005 23:32 |
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NeoSaber
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Even if one concedes that it's a matter of opinion if a child is human or not, how can we allow abortion to be legal? Instead of taking the side of caution, until we can know for sure if they are people or not, we're taking the side of reckless endangerment.
If in 10, 20 or whatever amount of years, scientists provide undeniable proof that an unborn child is a human, courts will have no choice but to outlaw abortion period, as it would be murder. What then do we say if we look back at decades of what was a mass slaughter of the innocent? "Oops, sorry for the genocide! Hope we didn't need those millions of people!"
What if it gets outlawed now until science figures it out? If in 10, 20, or whatever amount of years, scientists provide incontrovertible proof that an unborn child is not a human, courts will have no choice but to allow abortion. Then when we look back at decades of the restriction, what will we say? "Seems a little silly now, but the issue is solved."
It doesn't seem like much of a debate to me. Err on the side of caution, or potentially let millions of innocent people get brutally murdered... 
NeoSaber
Renegade Map Maker at CnC Source
Animator/Compiler/Level Editor/Object Rigger/Programmer for Red Alert: A Path Beyond
[Updated on: Sun, 06 November 2005 23:32] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: I need some good Conservative/Republican types [message #178257 is a reply to message #178197] |
Mon, 07 November 2005 10:00 |
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warranto
Messages: 2584
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| j_ball430 wrote on Sun, 06 November 2005 22:45 |
Yes, and it really all does depend on the mental capacity of the mother, but I just still can't let go the idea of a child being killed simply because the mother can't deal with a memory. I'm not female, and I haven't been raped, so I can't say that I'd know how it feels, but I just still can't imagine that killing a child is going to make the situation any better. It's all about the bigger picture. Let the woman/girl be the bigger person and be strong and show that she can beat this issue and deliver a child, and if necessary, give it up for adoption so that a loving family can give the child the love that it deserves. It's not the child's fault for the girl/woman getting raped (not her fault either), but the mother can still live her life past that incident, while to kill the child, it has no chance to live.
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And I agree. All I'm saying (and perhaps I could have been clearer) is that if there was that mental anguish caused by the rape to an extreme point, then I wouldn't oppose an abortion.
I'm not suggesting that there should be an automatic choice for the abortion route, as some people can get over it. But, if the right circumstances occur, it would be an acceptable act.
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