Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » Patriotism
| Patriotism [message #15008] |
Wed, 16 April 2003 21:45  |
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Duke of Nukes
Messages: 453
Registered: February 2003
Location: Denver, Colorado
Karma: 0
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Commander |
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"if liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they dont want to hear"
certain people say we're abusing our rights...just so you know...patriotism is questioning whatever seems wrong to you in the way the government works...not following it mindlessly.
"Living so free is a tragedy
When you cant be what you want to be
Living so free is a tragedy
When you cant see what you need to see"
- Powerman 5000
and since you all do not respect anyone in the popular media
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
"Too many of us look upon Americans as dollar chasers. This is a cruel libel, even if it is reiterated thoughtlessly by the Americans themselves."
"He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder."
- Einstein
I dont care if you write me a letter
I dont care what you say to me no more
All I got is trash left at my door
What you have dont worry me, worry me now more
- Calvin Baty, Craving Theo
What have I become?
My sweetest friend
Everyone I know
Goes away in the end
You could have it all
My empire of dirt
I will let you down
I will make you hurt
- Trent Reznor, NIN
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| Patriotism [message #15039] |
Thu, 17 April 2003 00:48  |
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Crimson
Messages: 7431
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
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Haha, just because I happen to agree with Bush, I am mindless? Uh, whatever. I didn't agree with fucking Clinton, that asshole pig fucker. I don't just blindly follow and agree with what the government does. I'm glad the checks and balances are there to keep them from fucking up too much.
I'm the bawss.
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| Patriotism [message #15072] |
Thu, 17 April 2003 05:38 |
KIRBY098
Messages: 1546
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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Negative, we didn't say you were abusing your rights. We even affirmed the ability to be a complete idiot in our society, by consenting you had the "right to your own opinion".
No one said you areen't allowed to. We just think you're a manic depressive, liberal, punk, teenager who's too wet behind the ears to realize that the reality of living in this world, means that armed conflict occasionally does happen for justified reasons.
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| Patriotism [message #15119] |
Thu, 17 April 2003 08:57 |
KIRBY098
Messages: 1546
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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You are the master of circular logic.
How is "there must be another way" support the military intervention?
Deleted
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| Patriotism [message #15135] |
Thu, 17 April 2003 11:03 |
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Crimson
Messages: 7431
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
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Duke of Nukes, I *never* said you didn't have the right to express your opinion. Find where I said that in those words and I'll repent.
However, I do also have the right to express MY opinion, and I have the right to think (or know) that your opinion is WRONG WRONG WRONG, and I have the right to say that.You still have the right to disagree with that, but I don't give a rat's ass.
Of course the truth is that you have no rights to express your opinion on these forums, but rather a privilege I extend to you as owner of these forums and the one who pays for the server they are on. But, as a fair person, I have very lenient rules, and having a fucked-up opinion is not against said rules.
I'm the bawss.
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| Patriotism [message #15190] |
Thu, 17 April 2003 14:30 |
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Crimson
Messages: 7431
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
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Uh, don't quote me, reply, and then when I reply, say that you weren't talking about me.
I'm the bawss.
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| Patriotism [message #15200] |
Thu, 17 April 2003 14:57 |
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Blazer
Messages: 3322
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars)
Administrator/General |
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| Duke of Nukes |
EDIT: this was directed at Blazer
ok...please...stop being a thickheaded moron for 2 seconds in this whole debate. Believe it or not...but there are people against the war that know what they are talking about. Just because a guy looks strange is no reason to write him off...Einstein himself was rather odd in appearance...especially for the times.
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Agreed, although you aren't one of them. If you knew what you were talking about, you would have a definitive answer for the way you think things should be done, instead of just saying there must be another way.
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we dont know of alternatives because we dont know all the information.
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How convienient. Translation: "There must be another way...but I dont know what it is...but its not my fault, its because I havn't been told what it is...yet here I am arguing in the favor of this unknown solution"
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I'll be the first to admit that there might not be another solution...other than never giving Saddam these weapons in the first place.
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Translation: "Since I'm just arguing for the sake of arguing, I don't have a real solution, but hey thinking of Einstein makes me think of time travel, so I will suggest we go back in time to fix it!"
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I think you guys are forgetting a few things...Saddam was put into office by the USA...he was given chemical weapons from the USA. Bush had planned to go to war in Iraq since before he was even elected...
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Translation: "While I'm at it let me throw in some conspiracy theories. Anyone with half a brain can see right through them, but hopefully it will add murkiness to the waters."
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perhaps Bush is doing the right thing...but for the wrong reasons.
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Translation: "Although I hate Bush I will now throw out something good about him, in hopes that it will validate the rest of the sentence I will tack on"
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Saying that his opinion doesn't matter because he's a punk is blatantly un-American. You call yourself a patriot...then dont judge another American based on the way they wear their hair.
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I never said anything about him being punk or his hair. I was simply implying that using song lyrics, or snippets of dialog from random sources is not the way to express YOUR opinion. When you use others words, you are simply trying to use the legitimacy of that person or that persons words to add legitimacy to your own argument. I'm sure that neither PM5K nor Einstein intended for their words to be symbollic of a war they never knew would occur.
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I also find it amusing that you say people against the war are too busy flaming others to come up with an alternative to war...because it could be said that you're too busy flaming people to even look for an alternative war.
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I only say this because most of the anti-war people you talk to are either extremists who want us to have no military at all, or people who just jumped on the antiwar bandwagon and have no real views or answers. You ask them how things should be done and its "I dont know but there should be another way". How can you fight to change something when you don't know what you want it changed to? As far as me being too busy flaming people to even look for an alternative to war, I disagree. For one thing, I don't flame people. I sometimes state my opinion, mostly I provide some information and let people draw their own conclusions. If you can find any Ad Hominem posts by me please point them out (unlike your "thickheaded moron" comments).
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| Patriotism [message #15286] |
Fri, 18 April 2003 00:03 |
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Blazer
Messages: 3322
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars)
Administrator/General |
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| Duke of Nukes |
I love how you people put words into my mouth I never even said...seriously...I never said anything remotely relating to anything you said in that past post so it's pointless to come up with a section by section analysis. Obviously I think on different brainwaves from you and you just dont get what I'm saying.
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You apparently didn't notice the word Translation in my comments. I didn't put any words in your mouth, simply tried to make sense out of your nonspecific comments. You say you are against the war and at the same time say there might not be any other way, other than some fantasy time travel trip to reverse your conspiracy theory of the US giving Saddam his weapons and putting him into office.
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I never said "there must be another way." I find it ironic you accuse me of saying that and then actually QUOTE me on saying: | Quote: |
I'll be the first to admit that there might not be another solution
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Congratulations...you just contradicted yourself by quoting your opposition
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Don't forget the remainder of the quote, which you happened to leave off this time; "...other than never giving Saddam these weapons in the first place...Saddam was put into office by the USA...he was given chemical weapons by the USA. Bush had planned to go to war in Iraq since before he was even elected..."
LOL. So you are a mind reader? You know what Bush was thinking and planning, even before he was elected huh? The picture you paint, is that we put Saddam in power, gave him a bunch of illegal weapons, knowing he would gas the Kurds with them, so then we would have a handy excuse to go invade a country and kick some ass.
I think you missed your calling. Instead of trolling the forums you should be writing novels...I will forward your scenario to Tom Clancy and see if he can polish it up 
[Updated on: Fri, 18 April 2003 07:18] Report message to a moderator |
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| Patriotism [message #15290] |
Fri, 18 April 2003 00:45 |
spotelmo
Messages: 273
Registered: February 2003
Location: nebraska
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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| Duke of Nukes |
EDIT: this was directed at Blazer
we dont know of alternatives because we dont know all the information. I'll be the first to admit that there might not be another solution...other than never giving Saddam these weapons in the first place. I think you guys are forgetting a few things...Saddam was put into office by the USA...he was given chemical weapons from the USA. Bush had planned to go to war in Iraq since before he was even elected...perhaps Bush is doing the right thing...but for the wrong reasons.
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you really should learn a bit about history before speaking about it.
sadaam was NOT put in office by the us. he started in power as the right hand man to the president of iraq in 1979. he then backstabbed his way into the presidency.
while we did provide some means to make chem/bio weapons, we were not the only ones supplying iraq. and, there was good reason... 1) they were fighting iran which was the greater of two evils. 2) we were in a cold war with the ussr and the mideast was one of the most important places to be. thus by helping iraq, we were bidding against the ussr for a very strategic partner.
also, keep in mind that while we were courting saddam openly to his face, we were also providing help to the kurds in a bid to get rid of him because we knew he was a hitler wannabe and we would be better off without him.
al that aside, what was done in the past doesn't matter, what matters is what he has done since. just because we were once "friends"(term used loosly) doesn't mean we are obligated to bow down to this maniac now.
edit: forgot to mention, bush did not plan to go to war before he was elected. he did however campaign on the principle of putting an end to saddam's games. this is one of the many reasons i voted for him. we put up with saddam for long enough. it was time to shit or get off the pot!
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