Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » Dissent is the highest form of patriotism?
| Dissent is the highest form of patriotism? [message #137111] |
Tue, 08 February 2005 19:08  |
msgtpain
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Registered: March 2003
Location: Montana
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Colonel |
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This is getting lost in the Pledge thread, so I thought I would start a new one.. Here are the relevant posts so far.. Can anyone solve the mystery of the over used quote?
| SEAL |
I like how all you guys can really do is roll your eyes at SFE's dissent quote... You make an impressive argument.
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All you guys keep rolling that off your fingertips like it's the end-all to any anti-Bush conversation.. But the question is, where does it come from? A quote isn't much of a quote without a source, is it?
I've watched you all use that quote for almost a year every time someone says your views are unpatriotic. So, put up or shut up.. Where can I find that quote from Mr Jefferson? Surely it must be in some text, somewhere, right?
Prove it.
| msgtpain |
That Google means nothing to me, I simply asked for proof that it came from Jefferson.. A thousand uses on Google doesn't mean that it's factually correct.. In fact, I can't seem to find that quote anywhere in the Jefferson digital archive http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/foley/ can you?
It is my assumption that this quote was fictitiously fed to the public by some organization such as The American Patriot Friends Network, and it's been taken as fact ever since.
If you look at some of the things that Jefferson actually said, It would seem that he thought the exact opposite.
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republican government required the losing side to support the nation's decision: That the aggressions and injuries of the belligerent nations have been the real obstructions which have interrupted our commerce, and now threaten our peace, and that the embargo laws were salutary and indispensably necessary to meet those obstructions, are truths as evident to every candid man, as it is worthy of every good citizen to declare his reprobation of that system of opposition which goes to an avowed and practical resistance of these laws. To such a resistance I trust that the patriotism of our faithful citizens in no section of the Union will give any countenance. Where the law of majority ceases to be acknowledged, there government ends, the law of the strongest takes its place, and life and property are his who can take them. [Jefferson, letter to John Gassaway, February 17, 1809.]
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While the principles of our Constitution give just latitude to inquiry, every citizen faithful to it will, with you, deem embodied expressions of discontent, and open outrages of law and patriotism, as dishonorable as they are injurious; and there is reason to believe that had the efforts of the government against the innovations and tyranny of the belligerent powers been unopposed among ourselves, they would have been more effectual towards the establishment of our rights.[Jefferson, letter to "The Republican Mechanics Of The Town Of Leesburg And Its Vicinity," March 29, 1809.]
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Political dissension is doubtless a less evil than the lethargy of despotism, but still it is a great evil, and it would be as worthy the efforts of the patriot as of the philosopher, to exclude its influence, if possible, from social life. [Jefferson, letter to Thomas Pinckney, 1797.]
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So I say again, if you would like to use this "quote" as some sort of affirmation that you should speak out against the government, and believe that one of our Founding Fathers explicitly gave you that duty, please show me where he said so..
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| Dissent is the highest form of patriotism? [message #137121] |
Tue, 08 February 2005 19:39  |
msgtpain
Messages: 663
Registered: March 2003
Location: Montana
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Colonel |
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j_ball's correct, this has nothing to do with SEAL, except that he made the comment that sparked my original statement..
All I want is for someone to show me where Jefferson made this comment, since it's continually used as a cornerstone to all the anti-bush arguments. Wouldn't it strike you as odd if people continually fall back on the wisdom of a "founding father," if that wisdom never really existed?
I just don't think that something Jefferson never said should be used to validate so many comments.
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| Dissent is the highest form of patriotism? [message #137129] |
Tue, 08 February 2005 20:05 |
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Fabian
Messages: 821
Registered: April 2003
Location: Boston, MA
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It might be something Jefferson just said, and someone recorded. It may have never been in a speech. I find it hard to believe that such distinguished historians like Howard Zinn would use that quote without knowing it to be an actual quotating.
And secondly, does it really matter? Does whether or not Jefferson said it negate its truth?
| Howard Zinn |
While some people think that dissent is unpatriotic, I would argue that dissent is the highest form of patriotism. In fact, if patriotism means being true to the principles for which your country is supposed to stand, then certainly the right to dissent is one of those principles. And if we're exercising that right to dissent, it's a patriotic act.
One of the great mistakes made in discussing patriotism -- a very common mistake -- is to think that patriotism means support for your government. And that view of patriotism ignores the founding principles of the country expressed in the Declaration of Independence. That is: the Declaration of Independence makes it clear that governments are artificial creations set up to achieve certain ends -- equality, life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness -- and when governments become destructive of those ends it is the right of the people in the words of the Declaration, to alter or abolish the government.
In other words, obedience to government certainly is not a form of patriotism. Governments are the instruments to achieve certain ends. And if the government goes against those ends, if the government is not defending our liberties, but is diminishing our liberties, if the government is sending young people into war or making war which is unjustified, well then the government is not following the principles of caring about life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. When the government is taking huge sums of money from education and health, and using that money for military purposes, that's a violation of the principles of the Declaration of Independence. And a government like that cannot be obeyed. To obey a government like that is not being patriotic. At that point, when a government behaves like that, it is the most patriotic thing to disobey the government.
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And for Christ's sake, SFE is the only one to use the quote. Stop saying that I and other "liberals" use it.
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| Dissent is the highest form of patriotism? [message #137132] |
Tue, 08 February 2005 20:24 |
msgtpain
Messages: 663
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Location: Montana
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Colonel |
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Where exactly was Zinn quoting anyone? It reads as his opinion to me.
Why does it matter?
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SEAL is a retard - George W Bush
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You tell me. A "Founding Fathers" words are being used to further an argument.. Words that, in my opinion, greatly contradict the principles that actual, citeable sources show he expressed.. You don't see any harm in that?
[Updated on: Tue, 08 February 2005 21:03] Report message to a moderator |
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| Dissent is the highest form of patriotism? [message #137134] |
Tue, 08 February 2005 20:25 |
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Crimson
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General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
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You are right in some ways. Dissent of the government is not unpatriotic, nor are you expected to support everything blindly. Dissent of your fellow countrymen (as a whole or large part), dissent of your country as a whole, that is NOT patriotic. Believing the US Military to be wrong before the enemy... that's UNpatriotic dissent, and that's only one example. However, I would NOT find dissent to be the HIGHEST form of patriotism.
I mean, just because I agree with most of the stuff Bush is doing, does that make me UNpatriotic? Or not as patriotic as you who hate our president?
It doesn't make any sense to me how dissent could be the HIGHEST form of patriotism... I mean, I exercise my right to pursue happiness, doesn't that make me patriotic, too? Maybe pursuing happiness is the highest form of patriotism?
I'm the bawss.
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| Dissent is the highest form of patriotism? [message #137137] |
Tue, 08 February 2005 20:30 |
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Fabian
Messages: 821
Registered: April 2003
Location: Boston, MA
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Colonel |
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I just thought I'd find a nice quote on the subject matter. If you read A People's History of the United States (I had to for US History, it's kinda boring), he does quote it. Sorry for the confusion.
I agree, Crimson. Following your government if you believe what they are doing is good for the country isn't unpatriotic. It's only "patriotic" if you disagree with the goverment. And even then, it's a stretch to say it's the "highest" form (Although I think it's up there). So no, you aren't any more (un)patriotic then the rest of us, I would hope.
"Maybe pursuing happiness is the highest form of patriotism?"
I like it. 
| Aircraftkiller |
Yes, it does matter. It's called lying, or willful deception. You know, the kind of things you accuse the President of doing while making his case for the war on Iraq.
Hypocritical? Ding ding...
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I'm not the one using the quote everywhere, and the person who does use the quote hasn't even posted here to say "it doesn't matter," if anything. So I don't think anyone is being a hypocrit here. Ding Ding!
I personally do not care who said it. I agree with the message it conveys regardless (maybe if you get rid of "highest").
[Updated on: Tue, 08 February 2005 20:34] Report message to a moderator |
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| Dissent is the highest form of patriotism? [message #137142] |
Tue, 08 February 2005 20:35 |
msgtpain
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Colonel |
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From doing a search, it appears the paragraph you quoted was from an interview with Tom Paine; it was his reply to the topic: "Dissent these days seems to be a dirty word. The Bush administration has, at least since September 11th, usually termed any criticism of its policies 'unpatriotic.'
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I'm not saying that you didn't see it quoted in a text, but like I said, Google has it quoted 36,300 times.. but not a single one that I can find, has a source other than "Thomas Jefferson"... seems a little odd to me, especially since there isn't a single university or official archive that returns anything with that phrase. hmmm
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| Dissent is the highest form of patriotism? [message #137148] |
Tue, 08 February 2005 20:58 |
msgtpain
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Colonel |
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| SEAL |
This seems a lot more like a research project than a discussion...
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Ahh... but herein lies a critical point of the discussion. Exactly how many people have blindly taken this quotation as fact, simply because they read it somewhere with the text (-Thomas Jefferson) behind it. It's amazing when you think about it. Hundreds to thousands of citations around the Internet, all using it as the backbone of their discussions to speak out against the Government, and not a single one of them took a second to search out the factualness of it.
It sort of brings home a lot of the points that I've made against SFE et al's arguments in the past.. How can you take something so important for granted? How many other opinions are argued simply because they were read somewhere, and regurgitated here. More people need to think for themselves these days, and actually know what they're talking about, rather than just reciting it.
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| Dissent is the highest form of patriotism? [message #139119] |
Fri, 18 February 2005 12:29 |
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Kytten9
Messages: 332
Registered: October 2003
Location: Manchester, England
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Recruit |
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pa·tri·ot·ic : Feeling, expressing, or inspired by love for one's country.
Whether you love Bush or hate Bush, agree or disagree with his actions and agenda. Support the New York Yankees or the New England Patriots, watch sports, drink beer, smoke illegal or non-illegal substances, are gay, hetro, black, white, poor, rich or green and disfigured; if you love your country you are a patriot....all the rest is freedom of speech and your own opinions. (One of the greatest things about living in a free country)
You have a God given right to be stupid. Please do not abuse this right!
n00bstories renegade server mod.
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| Dissent is the highest form of patriotism? [message #139146] |
Fri, 18 February 2005 14:20 |
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SuperFlyingEngi
Messages: 1756
Registered: November 2003
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General (1 Star) |
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Stomach virus. I've just been feeling better, thanks for asking.
Here's my response to this thread:
You're asking Seale and me to prove the impossible. Whether or not that quote was actually uttered by Jefferson happened such a long time ago that there really are no more reliable sources stating whether or not he ever said this.
Even if it wasn't spoken by Jefferson, that doesn't mean I can't still share an opinion with it. It's really rather unimportant as to whether or not this quote originated with Mr. Jefferson.
Oh, and since a lot of you conservatives seem to believe that following the current President through thick and thin is the only patriotic thing to do, I presume that you were all on Clinton's side whenever he made a move?
Because if you weren't, wouldn't that make you hypocrites?
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
"The danger to political dissent is acute where the Government attempts to act under so vague a concept as the power to protect "domestic security." Given the difficulty of defining the domestic security interest, the danger of abuse in acting to protect that interest becomes apparent. --U.S. Supreme Court decision (407 U.S. 297 (1972)
The Liberal Media At Work
An objective look at media partisanship
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| Dissent is the highest form of patriotism? [message #139240] |
Fri, 18 February 2005 18:41 |
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cheesesoda
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General (5 Stars) |
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| SuperFlyingEngi |
Even if it wasn't spoken by Jefferson, that doesn't mean I can't still share an opinion with it. It's really rather unimportant as to whether or not this quote originated with Mr. Jefferson.
Oh, and since a lot of you conservatives seem to believe that following the current President through thick and thin is the only patriotic thing to do, I presume that you were all on Clinton's side whenever he made a move?
Because if you weren't, wouldn't that make you hypocrites?
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Funny thing is, you used the very excuse of a founding father having that view to back up your point. It makes all the difference in the world, tool.
While you may not have been directing this at me, I'll remind you once again that I don't blindly follow Bush, I havn't blindly follow bush, nor will I blindly follow Bush.
whoa.
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| Dissent is the highest form of patriotism? [message #139269] |
Fri, 18 February 2005 19:53 |
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Crimson
Messages: 7429
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General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
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I mostly disagree that dissent is the HIGHEST form of patriotism. One could argue that pursuing happiness is the highest form. One could argue many things.
I don't follow the president blindly, either. I won't go into the digressions again.
I'm the bawss.
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| Dissent is the highest form of patriotism? [message #139277] |
Fri, 18 February 2005 21:13 |
msgtpain
Messages: 663
Registered: March 2003
Location: Montana
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Colonel |
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| SuperFlyingEngi |
You're asking Seale and me to prove the impossible. Whether or not that quote was actually uttered by Jefferson happened such a long time ago that there really are no more reliable sources stating whether or not he ever said this.
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If it was spoken by Jefferson, it will be "written down" in an archive, go find it. Unless of course you are stating that it's folklore. If so, nothing else really needs to be said to its validity.
| SuperFlyingEngi |
Even if it wasn't spoken by Jefferson, that doesn't mean I can't still share an opinion with it. It's really rather unimportant as to whether or not this quote originated with Mr. Jefferson.
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Fine, share the opinion all you want.. Just make sure you credit the liberal historian as the source, instead of a Founding Father.. It amazes me that you aren't able to see the enormous difference there (or, maybe just not willing to see it)
If it was stated by Jefferson, it is used as a validation of your dissent, how could anyone argue against a position that one of the Founding Fathers expressed is a vital role in the development of this wonderful nation?
If it was stated by a liberal Historian, it's simply a statement made after the fact in an attempt to justify his public dissention's. read, an excuse.
One makes your dissention argument somewhat valid in the eyes of the opposition, the other just makes them laugh.
So, which way did you intend it to be taken?
| SuperFlyingEngi |
Oh, and since a lot of you conservatives seem to believe that following the current President through thick and thin is the only patriotic thing to do, I presume that you were all on Clinton's side whenever he made a move?
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Did we go to war under Clinton? I supported Bosnia, Somalia, launching missiles at Osama; in fact, I supported most everything he did militarily, except drastic downsizing and vetoing budgets affecting the paychecks of every military serviceman in the country. You're the one that doesn't want this to turn in to another Vietnam, so step up to the plate and ensure it doesn't. Cry foul against Bush all you want, just make sure that when our troops need money, you're all for it, and when they return, meet them at the airport and thank them for serving your country; even if you don't agree with the service they provided. When we're no longer engaged, you can begin your downsizing again and reducing military spending.
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