| The pledge of allegiance [message #136860] |
Mon, 07 February 2005 15:55  |
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Jalapeno Jones
Messages: 11
Registered: February 2004
Karma: 0
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Anyone else think that having kids say it in schools is wrong? I sure do. If not, please state why.
The war is right outside your door.
--Rage Against the Machine "Testify"
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| The pledge of allegiance [message #136894] |
Mon, 07 February 2005 17:55  |
greb
Messages: 95
Registered: November 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Karma: 0
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I say keep it optional. If you wanna say it then say it. If not, your not hurting anyone by staying seated. Some kids at my school mix the two. They say it sitting down...
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| The pledge of allegiance [message #136908] |
Mon, 07 February 2005 19:52 |
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Crimson
Messages: 7429
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
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Democrats at their very finest. Go on, assholes, keep hating your country.
I'm the bawss.
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| The pledge of allegiance [message #136926] |
Mon, 07 February 2005 20:46 |
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IRON FART
Messages: 1989
Registered: September 2003
Location: LOS ANGELES
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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You don't have to say it.
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Quote from IRC
<[Digital]> get man_fucking_a_car.mpg
<[Digital]> ah fuck wrong window
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| The pledge of allegiance [message #136927] |
Mon, 07 February 2005 20:51 |
msgtpain
Messages: 663
Registered: March 2003
Location: Montana
Karma: 0
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I like how all you guys can really do is roll your eyes at SFE's dissent quote... You make an impressive argument.
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All you guys keep rolling that off your fingertips like it's the end-all to any anti-Bush conversation.. But the question is, where does it come from? A quote isn't much of a quote without a source, is it?
I've watched you all use that quote for almost a year every time someone says your views are unpatriotic. So, put up or shut up.. Where can I find that quote from Mr Jefferson? Surely it must be in some text, somewhere, right?
Prove it.
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| The pledge of allegiance [message #136932] |
Mon, 07 February 2005 20:59 |
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Crimson
Messages: 7429
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars)
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I say the pledge of allegiance whenever my class does it, and I have no problem with it. But if you really do love your country, then you should be able to recognize that people have the right not to say it. Don't accuse such a huge amount of American citizens of hating their country.
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Why should ANYONE have a problem pledging their allegiance to their country unless they don't want to pledge it? And why would someone NOT want to pledge their allegiance to the country? Don't like the "god" bit? Don't say that part and shut the fuck up. The pledge is a personal oath of being an ally of your country. You don't HAVE to say it "their way" but if you don't want to say it at all then get the fuck out and make room for people who want to be here.
I'm the bawss.
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| The pledge of allegiance [message #136940] |
Mon, 07 February 2005 21:15 |
msgtpain
Messages: 663
Registered: March 2003
Location: Montana
Karma: 0
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That Google means nothing to me, I simply asked for proof that it came from Jefferson.. A thousand uses on Google doesn't mean that it's factually correct.. In fact, I can't seem to find that quote anywhere in the Jefferson digital archive http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/foley/ can you?
It is my assumption that this quote was fictitiously fed to the public by some organization such as The American Patriot Friends Network, and it's been taken as fact ever since.
If you look at some of the things that Jefferson actually said, It would seem that he thought the exact opposite.
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republican government required the losing side to support the nation's decision: That the aggressions and injuries of the belligerent nations have been the real obstructions which have interrupted our commerce, and now threaten our peace, and that the embargo laws were salutary and indispensably necessary to meet those obstructions, are truths as evident to every candid man, as it is worthy of every good citizen to declare his reprobation of that system of opposition which goes to an avowed and practical resistance of these laws. To such a resistance I trust that the patriotism of our faithful citizens in no section of the Union will give any countenance. Where the law of majority ceases to be acknowledged, there government ends, the law of the strongest takes its place, and life and property are his who can take them. [Jefferson, letter to John Gassaway, February 17, 1809.]
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While the principles of our Constitution give just latitude to inquiry, every citizen faithful to it will, with you, deem embodied expressions of discontent, and open outrages of law and patriotism, as dishonorable as they are injurious; and there is reason to believe that had the efforts of the government against the innovations and tyranny of the belligerent powers been unopposed among ourselves, they would have been more effectual towards the establishment of our rights.[Jefferson, letter to "The Republican Mechanics Of The Town Of Leesburg And Its Vicinity," March 29, 1809.]
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Political dissension is doubtless a less evil than the lethargy of despotism, but still it is a great evil, and it would be as worthy the efforts of the patriot as of the philosopher, to exclude its influence, if possible, from social life. [Jefferson, letter to Thomas Pinckney, 1797.]
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So I say again, if you would like to use this "quote" as some sort of affirmation that you should speak out against the government, and believe that one of our Founding Fathers explicitly gave you that duty, please show me where he said so..
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| The pledge of allegiance [message #136980] |
Tue, 08 February 2005 06:58 |
Chronojam
Messages: 688
Registered: March 2003
Karma: 0
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If their parents teach them to pay their taxes in a timely fashion, that's enough allegience for me and probably lots of the government to care about. If they stop paying their taxes, they can get out. It's that simple. Hmmm... I sorta like this concept.
People new to this country who want to be citizens should pledge because they never have before. That makes sense. They should do it a couple times just to make it clear they're serious.
I think that once I've pledged a few thousand times, it's redundant. I'm a citizen, was born a citizen, I pledged, my parents paid their taxes (hell, I paid my taxes). Why should it be questioned again? And if I was a terrorist, I could always just lie and go through the motions, couldn't I? So it doesn't matter at this point, and it's really not practical unless there's some special reason.
... I'm curious, why does it make me now hate my country if I opt out of pledging again?
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