Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » "...under God"
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| "...under God" [message #131639] |
Mon, 10 January 2005 10:17   |
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NukeIt15
Messages: 987
Registered: February 2003
Location: Out to lunch
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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"separation of church and state" isn't in the Constitution or any law. It was merely a theory presented and related to the founding of our governmental structure.
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Frankly, the thought of living in any country where church and state are not separated scares me (and the entire world is shaping up to be one scary place to live in, the way things are going). Government, especially in a nation such as the US, can not be the lapdog of one particular religion- that would exclude all others (read that: millions of people), and lead to those groups feeling like outsiders to the rest of the country. One needs only look at history to see that government based on religion is the one sure path to oppression, and if left in place long enough, genocide.
There are common ideals and morals which all people share; those are what government should be based on. Religion has its place; that place is to govern the actions and beliefs of the individual who believes in that religion. It has no place in determining what is right or wrong for people who may be of other, different religions.
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived of the use of them." - Thomas Paine
Remember, kids: illiteracy is cool. If you took the time to read this, you are clearly a loser who will never get laid. You've been warned.
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| "...under God" [message #131649] |
Mon, 10 January 2005 11:19 |
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warranto
Messages: 2584
Registered: February 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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| SuperMidget |
| Panther |
The argument is that "under God" implies that America is Under Christianity. This can actually be taken in other ways, but it's quite obvious that "under God" represents the Christian "God". Because of the seperation of church and state, many people say it should be removed (endorsing Christianity).
In my opinion, it should have never been added in the first place.
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this will never change becuase america is a meltingpot society. You're american first, then your nationality/relgion second, that why i'm proud to be CANADIAN!
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America and Canada are polar opposites in this respect (for the most part and that is not a good thing). While America rejects the idea of politics and religion being involved (ideally), Here we get dumb ideas such as introducing a muslim-only judicial system (Canadian muslims will be judged by Muslim law, not Canadian law). It's hasen't been certified, but it has been introduced and is being debated. Seeing as how the Canadian government is all about the little people (as in, anyone who can gather support and wants something done, regardless of practicality), it will probably happen.
Of course, we are the same as such that it seems the Christian religion is the only religion that gets the short end of the stick.
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| "...under God" [message #131650] |
Mon, 10 January 2005 11:30 |
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warranto
Messages: 2584
Registered: February 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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| NukeIt15 |
| Quote: |
"separation of church and state" isn't in the Constitution or any law. It was merely a theory presented and related to the founding of our governmental structure.
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Frankly, the thought of living in any country where church and state are not separated scares me (and the entire world is shaping up to be one scary place to live in, the way things are going). Government, especially in a nation such as the US, can not be the lapdog of one particular religion- that would exclude all others (read that: millions of people), and lead to those groups feeling like outsiders to the rest of the country. One needs only look at history to see that government based on religion is the one sure path to oppression, and if left in place long enough, genocide.
There are common ideals and morals which all people share; those are what government should be based on. Religion has its place; that place is to govern the actions and beliefs of the individual who believes in that religion. It has no place in determining what is right or wrong for people who may be of other, different religions.
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Keep in mind though that there is a difference between separation of church and state (state matters should not be influenced by religion), and separation of church and the people of the state (not allowing christian christmas decorations to be displayed etc.). Just becareful that this debate about the pledge actually has to do with influencing state matters, and not simply the people.
Is this a matter to be endorced as falling under the category of tolerance, or is someone believing that God is in support of the state so bad that it can not be expressed officially?
Remember, it's pledging allegiance to the flag and for what the republic stands for. The "Under God" part is simply the expression of the belief that God is in support of the country (as I mentioned above, but to reitterate), followed up by liberty and justice for all. The "Under God" phrase is sort of an extra put in. You're not pledging to God, just saying that God is supporting the country. There is nothing religious about it other than it refers to God's protection.
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| "...under God" [message #131657] |
Mon, 10 January 2005 13:53 |
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NukeIt15
Messages: 987
Registered: February 2003
Location: Out to lunch
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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Keep in mind though that there is a difference between separation of church and state (state matters should not be influenced by religion), and separation of church and the people of the state (not allowing christian christmas decorations to be displayed etc.). Just becareful that this debate about the pledge actually has to do with influencing state matters, and not simply the people.
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This is nothing like banning Christmas decorations in public (which, IMHO, is a retarded idea). That is how the Pledge was to begin with; the original pledge did not have "under God" in it. I do not doubt that there are people who think all mention of religion should be banned from public alltogether, but I will state plainly that I am not one of them. What I want is for the ORIGINAL Pledge to be used in place of its twice-revised first cousin that we have now.
Now, if you went and removed all mention of God from the Declaration of Independence, THAT would be wrong. Why? Because that is the way it was originally written. Once the words are altered, the meaning behind them is changed; this is what has happened to the Pledge over the years. Returningt he Pledge to the way it was when it was first written, to me, would be reviving a piece of history that seems to be completely lost to many people.
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Is this a matter to be endorced as falling under the category of tolerance, or is someone believing that God is in support of the state so bad that it can not be expressed officially?
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Tolerance has nothing to do with it. The Pledge is an oath of loyalty. You may believe that your God is in support of this country all you wish, but changing the Pledge so that it cannot possibly have meaning to everyone who gives it is, in effect, forcing that belief on anyone who is asked to say the Pledge. "under God" should never have been put into the Pledge to begin with; it should have been left in its original form. In that form, it is, as it should be, an oath of loyalty to the United States of America, not to an omnipotent God that many people do not believe exists.
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Remember, it's pledging allegiance to the flag and for what the republic stands for. The "Under God" part is simply the expression of the belief that God is in support of the country (as I mentioned above, but to reitterate), followed up by liberty and justice for all. The "Under God" phrase is sort of an extra put in. You're not pledging to God, just saying that God is supporting the country. There is nothing religious about it other than it refers to God's protection.
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The FLAG is what you are giving the Pledge to. The Flag is a symbol; it represents the connection between the country and the person giving the Pledge. Read the original Pledge again; it reads "I pledge allegiance to MY flag." That flag is meant to represent your loyalty and your love for your country. If God is included in that for you, fine. No one is stopping you from believing that. However, for myself and many others, that connection does NOT include God.
The Pledge is meant to be all-inclusive. It is meant for all citizens of the United States. In its current form, it excludes millions of Americans whose love for their country is as great as anyone else's- but because some politicians back in the 50's forgot that not all Americans believe in a single God (or any god at all), they are not covered by it.
You are arguing to keep the Pledge the way it is because you do not want its meaning to be lost- it would not be. If anything, the Pledge is meaningless because it has been changed so many times; in order to have it mean something real again, it should be restored.
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived of the use of them." - Thomas Paine
Remember, kids: illiteracy is cool. If you took the time to read this, you are clearly a loser who will never get laid. You've been warned.
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| "...under God" [message #131687] |
Mon, 10 January 2005 16:22 |
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warranto
Messages: 2584
Registered: February 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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Nukeit: Your first point would be valid if it was never changed in the first place. However, now that the damage has been done (the original was changed to include God), people have to live with it. By removing it because it is unacceptable to include God, you are now excluding every religious person out there (or, if you so wish to debate it as such, the Christians)
So, I guess it comes down to who do you want to exclude more? Athiests or religious people?
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The FLAG is what you are giving the Pledge to. The Flag is a symbol; it represents the connection between the country and the person giving the Pledge. Read the original Pledge again; it reads "I pledge allegiance to MY flag." That flag is meant to represent your loyalty and your love for your country. If God is included in that for you, fine. No one is stopping you from believing that. However, for myself and many others, that connection does NOT include God.
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Thats exactly what I was saying. The "Under God" aspect has nothing to do with the pledging allegiance with God.
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You are arguing to keep the Pledge the way it is because you do not want its meaning to be lost- it would not be. If anything, the Pledge is meaningless because it has been changed so many times; in order to have it mean something real again, it should be restored.
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Wrong again (geeze, I thought repeating myself in my posts was bad form, but even then people can't understand).
I mentioned nothing, anywhere, about it losing it's meaning.
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Tolerance has nothing to do with it. The Pledge is an oath of loyalty. You may believe that your God is in support of this country all you wish, but changing the Pledge so that it cannot possibly have meaning to everyone who gives it is, in effect, forcing that belief on anyone who is asked to say the Pledge. "under God" should never have been put into the Pledge to begin with; it should have been left in its original form. In that form, it is, as it should be, an oath of loyalty to the United States of America, not to an omnipotent God that many people do not believe exists.
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Congratulation attacking someone's question as though it was a statement... Hint: When a phrase includes the grammatical expression "?", it is then turned from a statement into a question. To further explain myself (are people here so bad a grammar they can not understand the concept of a question?), it was a question intened to make people think of what the answer may be.
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| Re: "...under God" [message #131778] |
Tue, 11 January 2005 15:00 |
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CANADUHIAN JIHAD ON JOO
I suck cock and love it... absolutely love it. And I just got banned for being too immature to be allowed to post here.
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| Re: "...under God" [message #131829] |
Tue, 11 January 2005 18:13 |
AlostSOul
Messages: 101
Registered: August 2004
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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Look people, no matter how you look at it, there is never going to be a "right " way on how this situation goes. There are going to be people that agree and disagree. But no matter how you look at it, the popular politician is always going to win. No matter if the other party has very good issues to counter argue with. It's been like that since Reagan was in office.
the only thing I can say is this: ROFL!!!!
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| "...under God" [message #131854] |
Tue, 11 January 2005 22:52 |
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Quit it.
I suck cock and love it... absolutely love it. And I just got banned for being too immature to be allowed to post here.
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| "...under God" [message #131940] |
Wed, 12 January 2005 17:04 |
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Toolstyle
Messages: 215
Registered: May 2004
Location: Manchester
Karma: 0
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=gbull=[L]=]I am always so astonished by how many people dont know that. The Allah they refer to is translated to "God" in English and all the three major religions Stem from this same Monothiestic [sic] Being. Look it up, All three Religions form from the Patriarch Abraham if im correct.
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He's completely right. Christianity, Judaism and Islam have the same God (Allah, Jehovah whatever) Christianity and Islam stem from Judaism. However while Christians believe Jesus was God's son Muslims and Jews believe he was a prophet. Jews believe Moses was the most important prophet while Muslims believe Abraham was (I think) these three diverging beliefs are the root of the tension between the "Christian" West and the “Islamic� East and the root of the problem in Palestine (along with land claims.)…that and the fact the Islam is a lot less tolerant of other religions and beliefs.
| Aircraftkiller |
That's irrelevant to this thread.
Common fallacies of logic and rhetoric:
Ad hominem - attacking the arguer and not the argument.
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| "...under God" [message #131960] |
Wed, 12 January 2005 19:14 |
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Hydra
Messages: 827
Registered: September 2003
Location: Atlanta, GA
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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Mohammad is actually the most important prophet in Islam.
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FYI, when the Muslims captured regions, the inhabitants were allowed to practice their own religion as long as they paid a special tax.
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This was only true in a few instances in Islam's history, and during those times, people of other religions were not allowed to convert muslims to their religion, or they would be executed for breaking Islamic law. They basically existed as second-class citizens and were executed if they tried to convert muslims.
Islam is not as tolerant a religion as everyone likes to think it is.
I am not claiming to be the end-all knower of all that is true about Islam, but it is the best (and nicest) way for me to express the way I feel about the religion (actually, if you ask me, Islam is a dangerous religion of intolerance and fear and is currently the greatest catalyst of international turmoil in the world today; just look at the hellhole the Middle East has become) (I know most of what I just said is an exaggeration, but it does make a guy wonder just how Islam can truly be the religion of "peace" and "tolerance" that everyone likes to say it is when it is so often used to recruit terrorists and oppress millions of people in countries all over the world; just what is it that Osama bin Laden seems to be "misinterpreting" all the time that moves men to blow themselves up in busy marketplaces?).
On a bit more unrelated note, the way I see it is both Jews and Christians worship the same God; Christians just believe that the messiah, Jesus Christ, has already come, while today's Jews don't believe that Jesus Christ was the messiah, except for Messianic Jews, of course.
It seems muslims, though, have taken bits and pieces from those two religions and created their own religion completely seperate from either of the two. I find it ironic how muslims use the Torah, Psalms, and "Gospel of Jesus," all major parts of the Bible, as sacred Islamic texts in addition to the Koran, when the Koran contradicts many of what is written in each of those documents.
Walter Keith Koester: September 22, 1962 - March 15, 2005
God be with you, Uncle Wally.
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| "...under God" [message #132032] |
Thu, 13 January 2005 11:22 |
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Toolstyle
Messages: 215
Registered: May 2004
Location: Manchester
Karma: 0
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| hydra1945 |
Mohammad is actually the most important prophet in Islam.
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I just found that out today and was going to correct myself but it seems you already have thank you.
Of course not ALL Muslims are hook handed bomb loaded psychopaths screaming about the evils of the West. I have several friends who are Muslims and, as of yet, completely failed to try and blow me up.
| Aircraftkiller |
That's irrelevant to this thread.
Common fallacies of logic and rhetoric:
Ad hominem - attacking the arguer and not the argument.
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| "...under God" [message #132091] |
Thu, 13 January 2005 22:24 |
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IRON FART
Messages: 1989
Registered: September 2003
Location: LOS ANGELES
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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Its just the separation of church and state thing again.
Frankly I don't care. I don't say the pledge and I believe that the Muslim and Christian gods are the same.
But I don't see why this guy is going to court etc. His daughter doesn't have to say the pledge. Nobody forces you to.
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Quote from IRC
<[Digital]> get man_fucking_a_car.mpg
<[Digital]> ah fuck wrong window
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| "...under God" [message #132165] |
Fri, 14 January 2005 20:49 |
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IRON FART
Messages: 1989
Registered: September 2003
Location: LOS ANGELES
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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Well I know that. I just thought it was only correct to make it plural as I was talking about the gods of 2 different religions.
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Quote from IRC
<[Digital]> get man_fucking_a_car.mpg
<[Digital]> ah fuck wrong window
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