Home » General Discussions » General Discussion » Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word
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| Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word [message #128142] |
Tue, 21 December 2004 11:49   |
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m1a1_abrams
Messages: 375
Registered: August 2003
Karma: 0
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Commander |
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You could argue that either way. From my point of view that would suggest it being the same game from a different perspective.
To be honest though, I want to see changes to the game in the hope that it will bring more depth to the gameplay. It doesn't bother me so much that it's exactly like C&C 1 for the sake of being like C&C 1. However, I do happen to think that it was a pretty well balanced game, so if it's possible to make the FPS game balanced in a similar fashion I would be all for it. I think RenAlert proved that it is possible... and quite a lot of fun too providing you lose the old Renegade mindset and approach it as a new game. Personally I don't want to force change onto anyone who doesn't want it. If people like the game just as it is then who am I to tell them any different. I do wish that they would consider it though, because I think it would promote more diverse tactics and teamplay. There are so many tactics and ideas that are dismissed as mostly unusable by most players out of experience. For example, nobody wants to try an MRLS rush on City Flying because they know they'll get cut to pieces by snipers, or routed by a single helicopter that can hover over them and damage them indefinitely, with little fear of retaliation. If the causes of this narrow tactical thinking are addressed and solved, then you might find that there's so much more to the game... and it's pretty diverse already.
Also, I'm curious as to your thoughts on my previous posts in response to you, since you didn't refer to them at all in your latest reply.
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| Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word [message #128193] |
Tue, 21 December 2004 14:06 |
PiMuRho
Messages: 494
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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Commander |
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For example, nobody wants to try an MRLS rush on City Flying because they know they'll get cut to pieces by snipers, or routed by a single helicopter that can hover over them and damage them indefinitely, with little fear of retaliation. If the causes of this narrow tactical thinking are addressed and solved, then you might find that there's so much more to the game...
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I'd say that an MRLS rush without any kind of support units is narrow tactical thinking.
Dev Diary
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| Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word [message #128194] |
Tue, 21 December 2004 14:07 |
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Javaxcx
Messages: 1943
Registered: February 2003
Location: Canada, eh?
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| m1a1_abrams |
OK, forgetting aircraft and artillery for a minute, since good arguments can be made for why both have sufficient unique advantages to remain perfectly usable even though they lack staying power against 1000 credit snipers... what about Buggies, Humvees and Transport Helicopters? Aren't they almost completely redundant units once the snipers arrive in the field, since in all circumstances barring lack of funds you would be better off using an APC? Isn't it that the Ramjet Rifle is solely responsible for them being redundant?
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That's a matter of perspective. Once Ramjets are able to come into the field, everything short a Mammoth tank can come into the field as well. The redundancy of those units you've mentioned is quite universal when 1000 credits are given to each character. Does the Ramjet contribute to it? Of course, it does. But does that mean it is to blame for it? Absolutely not. If you apply some strategy to the situation mapwide, you would probably take the APC if you had the funds. If you didn't, you can do any number of things while you await funds. However, if the refinery is lost because of the incompetence of your team, that cannot possibly be the Ramjet's fault, can it?
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Orcas would not be able to stay in the field indefinitely without needing to return to the Helipad to rearm, so they wouldn't be the all powerful units that they are currently once the Hand of Nod has been destroyed. They would also not be able to destroy a typical armoured vehicle at full health, making them less of a threat one-on-one to units in the field, and more of a weapon designed to take out fixed targets in packs of more than one aircraft. This would not make aircraft drastically less useful as the ability to move fully in three dimensions is already a huge advantage over any other unit, and we already know that the skilled player can use this ability alone to great tactical effect.
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Let me put a spin on this for you. You mentioned a pack of aircraft to do the work. Why not utilize THAT strategy now? While one Ramjet can certainly take down an aircraft, many aircraft going in many different directions would result in your strike going through and your sniper being left out in the field. Now, if you wanted to do some kind of one man assault on another base and you can afford an aircraft, but you know there are snipers, rethink the strategy and grab an APC or tank. Remember, it's not the sniper's fault you chose an aircraft.
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Rocket Soldiers for both sides, Stealth Tanks, Mammoth Tanks, Recon Bikes, MRLS and stationary SAM Sites plus the AGT would be the primary counter to aircraft. That's two vehicles for each side if Recon Bikes were to be reintroduced, and they should be. The homing rockets sported by these units would be the most useful in dealing with a fast moving target that can fly, since you wouldn't have to lead like you would with a conventional projectile. Of course, all weapons would still be able to damage aircraft if they hit, with varying degrees of effectiveness depending upon the warhead used and the armour type it's penetrating. Although it wasn't possible for non-rocket-armed units to hit aircraft in the RTS game, you might argue that they weren't incapable of hitting aircraft, it's just that in the simplified game engine they were assumed to be missing the target all the time (since it would be difficult to hit an aircraft with anything other than a homing rocket). This is a similar concept to the way that the APDS/HEAT shells fired by the tanks in the RTS games did minimal damage to infantry. A direct hit would kill instantly, but they were assumed to be shooting at soldiers in cover and thus were very rarely scoring a direct hit. This is actually stated by the developers in the .ini files of Tiberian Sun.
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I understand that you're trying to posit alternatives, but IMO they are unneeded. If the game is to be like CNC TD, then everything would have to change to be like it. Including the impractical aspects that wouldn't make sense in an FPS. However, if we do what you're suggesting it isn't necessarily ringing true to any game but is rather a shade of grey between them, leaning toward CNC TD (something Aircraftkiller has yet to prove was the direct purpose of the game). I believe your idea would work for a mod, but Renegade is Renegade as it is, not CNC TD or a compromise between them.
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Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, all weapons would have to be capable of causing damage to aircraft since they logically should be able to hit a stationary, grounded aircraft (and all units could damage grounded aircraft in C&C). I can't see of any way that you could limit their ability to hit aircraft to only those on the ground, given the limitations of the Renegade engine. Luckily, this actually helps to balance the game, as you pointed out with your misgivings about the idea that regular units shouldn't be able to hit aircraft at all.
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Given the engine, I don't think this is possible anyway.
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Soldiers would be able to do some significant damage to armoured vehicles (even buildings) if they were able to keep their weapon trained on the target for the length of time that it would take to do so. However, if you were balancing the game after the RTS, infantry would have less health than they do currently, and would take more damage from certain weapons, so I can't see this being a problem in the long run. It works this way in RenAlert and tanks are by no means useless. You can't even repair your own vehicles without a Mechanic or a Service Depot and tanks still dominate the game for the most part.
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I think you would find that if infantry could do the kind of damage to buildings as in CNC TD, the game would be far less enjoyable then it is now.
Sniper Extraordinaire
Read the FUD Rules before you come in and make an ass of yourself.
All your base are belong to us.
You have no chance to survive make your time.
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| Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word [message #128216] |
Tue, 21 December 2004 15:57 |
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m1a1_abrams
Messages: 375
Registered: August 2003
Karma: 0
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Commander |
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| PiMuRho |
I'd say that an MRLS rush without any kind of support units is narrow tactical thinking.
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Actually, I'd agree with you on that most of the time. A balanced attack force of different unit types would be preferable in most situations, because an alert team could easily deal with a group of unsupported MRLS. There would be merit to the tactic in certain situations though, either as a suprise tactic that the enemy doesn't expect and thus isn't prepared to defend against... or you may have noticed an abundance of certain units on the enemy team which would be ineffective against the unit in question, so you choose to field a combined force of nothing but that unit. My point was that the gameplay would be more varied if certain tactics that rarely work now suddenly because feasible. I think an MRLS rush would become much, much more feasible than it is currently if Ramjets didn't do that absurd amount of damage to light armour.
A problem I have with the flying maps in particular (I'm saying this by way of example as to why the snipers, and the aircraft for that matter, limit the tactics available on certain maps), is that the artillery units tend to be unusuable against anything but a novice enemy team during the period that both bases are intact. Considering that these maps are the only opportunity players have to fly, you're bound to have a preponderance of aircraft. They also happen to be particularly popular maps with people who like to snipe. I don't want to go into the particulars of why an excess of both snipers and aircraft will make the artillery units almost impossible to use effectively and I'm sure I don't have to explain it. I can understand and agree with the line of thinking that if the enemy team is focusing on a particular unit (like snipers), then it's not the best tactical thinking to focus your team on the units most vunerable to their units. Unfortunately, even a small number of snipers can render light vehicles unusable, and one or two snipers on a team isn't an example of focusing on sniping in particular... it's a regular occurance in practically any game of C&C Renegade. The usual counter to this idea is that you should halt their production of the higher infantry classes if you want to use light vehicles, but I really don't think that any of the units in the game should be unusable in "all out war" or a full technology level... whatever you want to call it (the state during which you can purchase any unit that you can afford). Like you say, if the enemy is massing a certain unit type then it's your own fault if you don't take that into account before purchasing, but if the different units are fairly well distributed between both teams, you really should be able to create a way to use any of the units in the game surely?
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That's a matter of perspective. Once Ramjets are able to come into the field, everything short a Mammoth tank can come into the field as well. The redundancy of those units you've mentioned is quite universal when 1000 credits are given to each character. Does the Ramjet contribute to it? Of course, it does. But does that mean it is to blame for it? Absolutely not. If you apply some strategy to the situation mapwide, you would probably take the APC if you had the funds. If you didn't, you can do any number of things while you await funds. However, if the refinery is lost because of the incompetence of your team, that cannot possibly be the Ramjet's fault, can it?
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It's almost solely the fault of the Ramjet that Buggies/Humvees and Transport Helicopters become unusable mid-game onwards. Any other threats you can avoid (providing that the enemy isn't massing anything in particular), by staying out of range, using your speed in the case of the first two, and only attacking when you feel you have a good chance of coming out in one piece. You just can't avoid a Ramjet with those units. Anyone who has tried will attest to this. If there is but one Ramjet user on the map and he's looking in the direction of your Buggy, you're toast. It's sometimes possible to kill the sniper before he kills you, if he really isn't paying attention, but given the range of the weapon and the speed with which a Ramjet will destroy a Buggy, you're nearly always dead before you reach him. All of the maps with the exception of Islands feature wide open areas that your light armoured vehicle absolutely has to traverse if you want to do anything useful. The snipers are always watching these wide open areas and as soon as you enter it you're taking fire. Snipers will position themselves as far away as possible from the front lines so your chances of reaching them before your vehicle is chipped apart by the blue beams is virtually nil. Like I said, no units should be unusable in the event of the enemy team fielding only a small number of counter-units.
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Let me put a spin on this for you. You mentioned a pack of aircraft to do the work. Why not utilize THAT strategy now? While one Ramjet can certainly take down an aircraft, many aircraft going in many different directions would result in your strike going through and your sniper being left out in the field. Now, if you wanted to do some kind of one man assault on another base and you can afford an aircraft, but you know there are snipers, rethink the strategy and grab an APC or tank. Remember, it's not the sniper's fault you chose an aircraft.
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You need more aircraft than there are snipers in that situation if we're to assume that both teams are equally skilled, because snipers can dispose of more aircraft in a given period of time that aircraft can dispose of snipers. This is taking into account the distance the aircraft will need to travel to get in firing range, as opposed to the sniper's almost limitless range on any standard map. The Ramjet is simply overpowered when it comes to fighting aircraft, just as the aircraft are overpowered when it comes to fighting anything other than a 1000 credit sniper.
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(about units only being able to shoot at grounded aircraft) Given the engine, I don't think this is possible anyway.
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That's what I meant. I can't see how you could distinguish between shooting at a flying Orca and an Orca sitting on the Helipad. All ground units would have to be able to damage aircraft, just so they could still damage them when they're aren't flying. Obviously the idea that you could have difficulty hitting a fast moving helicopter doesn't apply if the unit is sitting still on the ground. Luckily, it would probably help with balancing the game, so it's not a big deal.
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I think you would find that if infantry could do the kind of damage to buildings as in CNC TD, the game would be far less enjoyable then it is now.
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Well that's the way infantry work in RenAlert and I always enjoyed playing it. I didn't like the idea at first because I was so used to the way Renegade plays, but after playing it for a while I realised that the potential for infantry to do signigicant damage to vehicles wasn't making them too powerful. RenAlert infantry are more like the infantry in the RTS games, in that even the basic soldier can theoretically destroy any vehicle or structure given time, but they're incredibly weak so they tend to die before they can do much damage. If anything, it's more of an incentive to actually use the basic troop types when you can't purchase anything else, rather than just give up on the game and resign yourself to losing or not being able to help your team. A group of basic infantry could finish off a base if they work well together, so a losing team is never totally defeated until their last structure is destroyed. It's easily counterable though, if the other team is at least half-awake at the time.
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| Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word [message #128274] |
Tue, 21 December 2004 20:23 |
flyingfox
Messages: 1612
Registered: February 2003
Location: scotland, uk
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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If anything, it's more of an incentive to actually use the basic troop types when you can't purchase anything else, rather than just give up on the game and resign yourself to losing or not being able to help your team. A group of basic infantry could finish off a base if they work well together, so a losing team is never totally defeated until their last structure is destroyed.
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yes, that is something Renegade lacks: especially in defense maps
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| Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word [message #128455] |
Wed, 22 December 2004 17:25 |
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Deathgod
Messages: 504
Registered: February 2003
Location: The House of B
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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| buxton4 |
OT: any idea when fudonline will be back up I need to re download arnie's stirngs after installing CP1
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By the end of the week, hopefully. I'm having a billing problem with my webhost... they keep trying to charge a credit card that I cancelled and I keep telling them they can't because of that fact, but they won't accept my new card.
If you need the strings now, PM me and I can arrange to have you hooked up.
WOL: priestofb
FUD Online for Renegade character details
The preceding post was sponsored by FUD.
We are the way, you are in the way.â„¢
[Updated on: Wed, 22 December 2004 17:37] Report message to a moderator |
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| Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word [message #128501] |
Wed, 22 December 2004 20:57 |
Hulkcore
Messages: 64
Registered: April 2004
Karma: 0
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Also, with buggies and hummers, they are meant to be recon units aren't they? Hence the speed and light armor. So after the early parts of the match, when ppl are running out in the field and such, there really isn't that much need for recon, which also contributes to their lack of neccessity. And as it was mentioned before, buggies and hummers would be virtually useless once the field is full of tanks even if there were NO ramjet users. Because they aren't meant for that. They are meant for early recon/small rushes.
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| Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word [message #128616] |
Thu, 23 December 2004 14:03 |
el_fraggo
Messages: 5
Registered: December 2004
Karma: 0
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you must all remember, there are anti vehicle sniper weapons in use with the worlds armys!!! such as the one from barrett (cant remember the type) but it could go right through the armor of an apc with no trouble!
so imo, the game is quite balanced as it is. leave it alone!
mylo h4cks,
MYLO
50 kills, 3 deaths 4000 points
El_Fraggo
0Kills, 50 Deaths 500 Points
cheats yes or no?
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| Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word [message #128618] |
Thu, 23 December 2004 14:08 |
el_fraggo
Messages: 5
Registered: December 2004
Karma: 0
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"the only infantry weapons that the Aircraft should fear is the AV weapons, Laser Chain Gun, Laser Rifle, Rocket launcher, Railgun, and Personal Ion Cannon. The PIC and Railgun do MORE damage per shot than a n00bjet. But n00bjetters don't seem to have the skill to use them. "
the thing being, the "n00bjet" has the longest range for an infantry weapon in the game (apart from MABYE the rocket launcher) and the railgun/PIC have a notoriously short range, so that renders them useless as an AA weapon.
think of this, both are the same price, but one does slightly more damage, but has its range cut by WAY more than half. the other isnt quite as possible, but is more capable of the 1 hit kill, has a magazine of 4 rounds (the other has 1 shot reload) but has much longer range. which would you picK? i know which one id pick!
and sorry for the double post!
btw, for the homing missiles, why not have it so the homing missile does less damage, but is easier to fire? where as the standard shot does more damage, but is harder to aim.
mylo h4cks,
MYLO
50 kills, 3 deaths 4000 points
El_Fraggo
0Kills, 50 Deaths 500 Points
cheats yes or no?
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| Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word [message #128714] |
Fri, 24 December 2004 00:32 |
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liberator
Messages: 246
Registered: May 2003
Location: Classified, Level Phi cle...
Karma: 0
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No, it's about fixing an obiously bugged weapon that the devs weren't able to get to.
There was a time when people were impressed that I have the firepower to decimate a planet in under 10 minutes.
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| Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word [message #128767] |
Fri, 24 December 2004 07:29 |
Spoony_old
Messages: 1105
Registered: December 2004
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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I wish people wouldn't keep bringing up "realism".
Yes, a highly powered "sniper rifle" could probably down a lightly armoured attack aircraft in a couple of shots. Guess what. If the ramjet could do that, a rocket launcher could take it down in one shot. A high-velocity railgun will smash it out of the sky so hard there'll be nothing recognisable hitting the ground.
So far, the least realistically powerful of those three, currently does the most damage and has practically infinite range unlike the Railgun, hits instantly unlike the Rocket Launcher, and has a much higher rate of fire, and is extremely effective against infantry even in unskilled hands, and can get ridiculous amounts of points by doing absolutely nothing worthwhile to help your team's situation.
Granted, the Railgun or Rocket Launcher can be fearsome to infantry, but not in the hands of a complete novice. The Ramjet, on the other hand, is a different story.
Finally, Knight1b. If you think chem troopers are overpowered, think again. Yes, they have one or two advantages. For example, get a chem trooper close to a light vehicle (say, an MRLS) and he'll wreck it in three seconds flat.
But the chem trooper's disadvantages outweigh his advantages in most situations. His range is pathetic, his bulbous helmet makes him easy as hell to headshot.
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