| Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word [message #126182] |
Sun, 12 December 2004 20:32   |
msgtpain
Messages: 663
Registered: March 2003
Location: Montana
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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I guess the last paragraph was intentionally left out of the original post.. The one where it says the "selected" commando can level a building?
So yea, sure... take away their 10 points per shot on armor, and load them up with enough C4 to take out a building alone..
You know.. cause it's really important that we make the game EXACTLY like the '95 version if we want it to be fun at all... Speaking of that, when are you going to allow me to create 100 infantry in Renegade and group them for an attack?
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| Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word [message #126196] |
Sun, 12 December 2004 21:39 |
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Titan1x77
Messages: 1086
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| flyingfox |
What needs to be done anyway is,
-Nod rifle soldier damage increased to that of GDI's rifle soldier against light armour, making them as useful against light vehicles such as the apache and orca, but with the same firepower against other infantry (so for example the gdi soldier will still be better than the nod soldier face to face).
-Next, the aircraft themselves need to have limited ammunition and a damage of 0 against crushing. helipads need to be added to re-equip and heal them.
-The ramjet's damage against CnCVehicleLight needs to be thirded down.
The damage against skinflesh and shieldkevlar (infantry) should be made 1.8 (180) of the normal sniper rifle, allowing normal soldiers to survive a hit but still allowing any soldiers to be killed in 2 hits.
-Homing missiles must be added for both sides' rocket soldier and GDI's gunner. right click should fire a standard missile.
(sweet, silver's allowed as a colour)
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Why would someone use standard missles when they have homing,and it's not possible to make them home on vehicles only.
The ramjet is fine,yes it's a little overpowering against light vehicles,but with a tech repairing a mob art or a mrls,it can take out a havoc or sakura with a shot or 2.
You guys have to remember this is a FPS, and Havoc is the "main character" of the SP game, Thus he is an overpowered character....and one alot of people will use.
If anything add a bit more armor/health on a orca/apache....this giving the pilot 2 shots extra to find cover....I found this a very good way of balancing things in a few of my maps....the weapons are fine on the orca/apache.
A havoc pointwhoring isnt going to win you MVP....A mob art or MRLS point whoring will!...and they are alot cheaper.
This game has done well with it's players for the most part, and the gameplay of Renegade is very unique, Tribes maybe Planetside is as close as it gets, Yet I still think most people that have played all 3 enjoy Renegade the most.
"But if the gameplay sucks, the looks don't matter at all." - Sir Phoenixx
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| Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word [message #126198] |
Sun, 12 December 2004 21:50 |
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Aircraftkiller
Messages: 8213
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars) |
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Whether or not it's a FPS is irrelevant, there are plenty of games that hybridize RTS\FPS and still play balanced, unlike Renegade. A lot of the people who think n00b cannons are balanced are hiding behind a security blanket, because without it, they'd have to use something that takes more time and more effort to use instead of simply pointing in someone's general direction and hitting them with the force of an anti-tank missile...
The weapons on the Orca and Apache are not fine. They are overpowered and allow the units to hover over a target and constantly bombard it with gunfire. They are almost as bad as the n00b cannons are, except the n00b cannons don't have flashing red lights with easily heard sounds giving them away from 300 meters.
Don't even forget the useless Transport Helicopter. You might as well dig yourself a grave six feet under before you get into one, so you have a place to rest when you're blown away by the n00b cannons doing their flicker dance shit on the bridge in City Flying or in several areas on Walls Flying.
While CounterStrike: Source has something similar to the n00b cannon, the AWP is not almost unstoppable. The people using it do not get a huge health increase. The AWP has inaccuracy. It will not hit every single time you fire, ESPECIALLY when you're running. The AWP has a single shot bolt action, the n00b cannon has four shots with no recoil, no inaccuracy, and allows you to hit EVERYTHING you see... The range of a n00b cannon is 300 meters, and the furthest you can see in Renegade is 300 meters.
The AWP doesn't cause you to flicker around side to side, being practically impossible to hit with a skilled shot. The sniper rifles in Renegade allow this.
So lets recap. Not only do "snipers" get huge damage bonuses, get mega points (YES you can get MVP while being a n00b cannon user, all it takes is shooting tanks and infantry all game) from every target except buildings, and have enormous health\armor ratings... They also allow you to be basically impervious to fire unless someone runs you over, or gets a lucky shot on you while you're flickering around at warp nine. All for $1,000, and the fucking Mammoth Tank gives a n00b cannon about 15 points a shot for a tank that costs $1,500...
Yeah, lets throw out the RTS balance. Where aircraft don't destroy everything unless en-masse, and where snipers don't destroy everything... Lets just embrace the worst gameplay seen since Monster Truck Madness instead.
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| Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word [message #126219] |
Mon, 13 December 2004 01:36 |
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Titan1x77
Messages: 1086
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| Quote: |
there are plenty of games that hybridize RTS\FPS and still play balanced
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More specific please?
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The AWP doesn't cause you to flicker around side to side, being practically impossible to hit with a skilled shot. The sniper rifles in Renegade allow this.
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Well this is one thing we all wish was fixed, maybe BHS could do something with the netcode.
I think if that was fixed alone, It would tidy up this sniper situation greatly.
No game is perfect, C&C_Renegade is Still a fun game, yes it could be improved in a ton of area's...but with it's current level setting's theres nothing you can do except make vehicles give 0 damage points...and that's not going to go over well with alot of players....which is why BHS wouldnt release such a patch.
If theres ever another Renegade, Let's just hope they have been listening to what we have discussed......Im all for another C&C FPS on a more up to date engine(along with more options for settings),If C&C 3 is to really be released let's hope they find the support to even continue with the C&C Franchise....
EA really needs to step in and realize what they have here....The way westwood had taken a RTS and put it together in a FPS atmosphere is very fun and playable, even if it's not up to some of your standards.
This game is still pretty much by itself, in terms of actual massive MP online game objectives....if EA doesnt react soon someone WILL duplicate the style this game holds.
"But if the gameplay sucks, the looks don't matter at all." - Sir Phoenixx
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| Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word [message #126265] |
Mon, 13 December 2004 11:18 |
Spoony_old
Messages: 1105
Registered: December 2004
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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Kinda takes away the point of using anything else, doesn't it?
If you think you can't get MVP using nothing but a n00bjet to shoot tanks you're not damaging, I'm guessing you never played in Fastc0nn a few months ago. It's all people did...
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| Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word [message #126266] |
Mon, 13 December 2004 11:19 |
flyingfox
Messages: 1612
Registered: February 2003
Location: scotland, uk
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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A gun such as the one in that link sounds like it needed at least two men to operate. I know a single man can use it if it is set up on a bipod, but even then they aren't taking much of the weight it costs. It says in those stats, 36.6, which will be a measurement of pounds. I know this because the M60 weight is measured as HALF (HALF!!) of this anti tank gun's on this site.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m60e3.htm
Have any of you ever picked up a kilogram weight? Perhaps in high school for an experiment? 36.6 pounds is the equivelant to around sixteen kilograms. A man could not carry that shit around himself and fire without any recoil, whilst jumping at the same time. the idea is ludicrous. furthermore, to have an accurate shot it takes time to line up the target. to do that first of all you need to be on the ground with the thing. with the ramjet you can put out a bullet every 1.33 seconds with deadly accuracy every time. reload 2.80s.
Although in defense, the ramjet doesn't fire anything explosive and will not kill an advanced soldier in one hit. but did they really use those anti-tank weapons against soldiers? You can use an anti tank gun against charging infantry on one mission in call of duty, but you'd only kill if the round (which looked like a mini mortar hit when it hit the ground) hit right beside him. I'd rather say the pic/railgun is closer to this anti tank gun in terms of damage.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/k.livingston/ptrs41.jpg
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| Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word [message #126312] |
Mon, 13 December 2004 14:27 |
Spoony_old
Messages: 1105
Registered: December 2004
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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For starters, allow it to carry five passengers in addition to the pilot, instead of three... (That could also be applied to the APC of course...) If it isn't shot down, a chinook full of engis = remotes = building destruction in a flash.
Won't work everytime since the Chinook will get shot down if the enemy is organised. But that sounds like a tactic should be in Renegade... Won't work every time, but when it does work, destruction guaranteed.
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| Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word [message #126325] |
Mon, 13 December 2004 15:01 |
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GetSm0keD
Messages: 277
Registered: November 2004
Karma: 0
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i really havinet been readin these threads just cause they go on for ever lol
but in real life.. if i take a high power sniper gun and shoot a few times at the engine block.. it will kill the humvee
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| Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word [message #126331] |
Mon, 13 December 2004 15:16 |
Naamloos
Messages: 771
Registered: April 2004
Location: The Netherlands
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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Why not give the trans heli guns like seen in cut scenes, ect?
People wan't things that give em point's, the trans heli is the one thing in ren that can't give that.
So give it something to shoot with or extra armour... Or both 
Beter known as "raapnaap".
www.apathbeyond.com
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| Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word [message #126346] |
Mon, 13 December 2004 16:18 |
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smwScott
Messages: 225
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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| Spoony |
Would it blow it up faster than a railgun or a rocket launcher would? I seriously fucking doubt it.
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With that comment it sounds as if you're viewing Renegade realistically. Realistically this game wouldn't be fun, because yes a rail gun or a rocket launcher would do incredible damage to most vehicles. Your argument against the ramjet being too strong is to complain about lesser weapons not being able to do it as well.
My only problem with the ramjet is the point system. I believe it should be allowed to take down lightly armored vehicles with ease, it fits well into the games balance. The character costs $1000, so it should be able to do more than easily kill infantry. It is a good counter to people who constantly bombard structures with artillery, as well as the only effect counter against aircraft. An aircraft can completely destroy all infantry but the super snipers and tanks are impotent against them. Also, in a 1v1 battle between a orca/apache and a ramjet soldier, the orca can quite often kill the sniper or avoid being killed.
The ramjet is fine, and if someone wants to spend the whole game point whoring with them then I wish them good luck and I hope they have a great time, I'd much rather play the game.
-smwScott
47% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
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| Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word [message #126350] |
Mon, 13 December 2004 16:40 |
flyingfox
Messages: 1612
Registered: February 2003
Location: scotland, uk
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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You haven't been reading enough of the thread dude. without the ramjet being of much use there will be homing rockets, fixed aircraft, the like. my only question is why it hasn't been done yet. Renegade would be AWESOME with these changes. But getting rid of the ramjet without doing anything else is crap. play a game or 2 on the hazteam server on walls fly or city fly and see for yourself
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| Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word [message #126377] |
Mon, 13 December 2004 18:02 |
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smwScott
Messages: 225
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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| Aircraftkiller |
Using Scott's thinking, the Mammoth Tank is $1,500... It needs to be able to do more than what it does now. It needs to shoot everything from across a level, with missiles that never lose their targeting information, along with having more armor and stronger munution firepower...
You can't use the price argument in this case. Just because it's expensive does not mean it should be nearly invulnerable.
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I wasn't just using the price argument, I think the ramjet is vital to maintaining what balance the game actually has. And to the earlier guy, I was referring to how the game is now; not how it will be after some hypothetical changes are made to it.
The Mammoth Tank is underpowered. It's a giant bullet magnet. If given the choice between a Mammoth Tank and a Medium Tank, in almost every situation I would choose the medium regardless of price. It has some uses for base sieges when most of the defenses have been destroyed, but it is downright useless without a bunch of support (which never happens because no one waits for the damn thing). I don't have any real suggestion to fix this, but making missles not lose their targeting power actually doesn't sound like a bad start.
-smwScott
47% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
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| Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word [message #126380] |
Mon, 13 December 2004 18:19 |
Homey
Messages: 1084
Registered: February 2003
Location: Canada
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| Spoony |
Kinda takes away the point of using anything else, doesn't it?
If you think you can't get MVP using nothing but a n00bjet to shoot tanks you're not damaging, I'm guessing you never played in Fastc0nn a few months ago. It's all people did...
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I manage without shooting vehicles, excluding air :/
Hence the 80 kills
Homey
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| Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word [message #126403] |
Mon, 13 December 2004 18:57 |
Spoony_old
Messages: 1105
Registered: December 2004
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| smwScott |
| Spoony |
Would it blow it up faster than a railgun or a rocket launcher would? I seriously fucking doubt it.
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With that comment it sounds as if you're viewing Renegade realistically. Realistically this game wouldn't be fun, because yes a rail gun or a rocket launcher would do incredible damage to most vehicles. Your argument against the ramjet being too strong is to complain about lesser weapons not being able to do it as well.
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No, I am not viewing Renegade in the "realistic" sense, I am questioning why people cannot see what utter bullshit it is how a weapon which is supposed to be anti-infantry will chew up a tank faster than weapons which are supposed to be anti-tank, at the same time without having the disadvantages those weapons have (PIC reload time, Mobius short range, Gunner rocket is dodgable).
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| Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word [message #126415] |
Mon, 13 December 2004 19:37 |
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smwScott
Messages: 225
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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| Spoony |
No, I am not viewing Renegade in the "realistic" sense, I am questioning why people cannot see what utter bullshit it is how a weapon which is supposed to be anti-infantry will chew up a tank faster than weapons which are supposed to be anti-tank, at the same time without having the disadvantages those weapons have (PIC reload time, Mobius short range, Gunner rocket is dodgable).
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Your missing the point, it's not supposed to be anti-infantry only. If WS wanted it to be anti-infantry only then that would have been easy to arrange. As a matter of fact, anti-material rifles similar to that in real life are rarely used for infantry, and mainly for light armor. Also, the weapons you mentioned are more effective at damaging vehicles (even the lightly armored ones, although the Ramjet is the best bet because of the range).
-smwScott
47% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
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