Home » General Discussions » General Discussion » Fix the damn gun
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| Fix the damn gun [message #123907] |
Fri, 03 December 2004 15:30   |
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liberator
Messages: 246
Registered: May 2003
Location: Classified, Level Phi cle...
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| Hulkcore |
In addition, no one seems to complain about the fact that a shotgunner can take down an MRL/MobArt with ammo to spare! That seems more "unrealistic" and "unbalanced" than a sniper rifle designed to pierce armor.
The difference is that a shotgunner has to get close enough to shoot the Arty, unlike the n00bjet which can sit from WAY out of range of EVERYTHING else except artillery which dies in seconds and is too inacurate to stop a n00bjet without deploying at least 2.
There's plenty of ways to counter each and every strategy in Renegade, bottom line is, if you're getting mowed down by snipers, ramjet or non, GET BETTER AT DODGING/SNIPING. It's not that hard.
says the guy on the other side of the sniper rifle. I will agree that standard snipers are dodgeable, but n00bjets do 200 damage no matter where they hit you and they can be fired in rapid succession.
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There was a time when people were impressed that I have the firepower to decimate a planet in under 10 minutes.
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| Fix the damn gun [message #123929] |
Fri, 03 December 2004 17:22 |
Hulkcore
Messages: 64
Registered: April 2004
Karma: 0
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| j_ball430 |
| Hulkcore |
In addition, no one seems to complain about the fact that a shotgunner can take down an MRL/MobArt with ammo to spare! That seems more "unrealistic" and "unbalanced" than a sniper rifle designed to pierce armor.
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How's it unrealistic and unbalanced? You do realize that shotguns spray buck shots, right? Not to mention you have to be extremely close to the MRLS/Artillery to even hit it. If you can get that close and not get ran over, then you deserve to take it out.
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It's unrealistic because a shotgun vs. an armored vehicle would not blow the damned thing up in 20 shells. And besides, I don't think that there are really any serious balance issues in Renegade. I don't think the people that made the game had intense realism in mind. I think they were going for what works and what is fun. And since we're all playing the game that's getting close to 3 years old, I would say they did a damn fine job.
Bottom line, I've been on both ends of the sniper rifle many many times, I've had the crap beat out of me, and I've done my fair share of killing, but I've never been in a situation where I was gonna whine that the other team was better than me. If you can't get a shotgunner close enough to a sak/havoc or an mrl for that matter, tough cookies, practice more, get better, grow up.
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| Fix the damn gun [message #123936] |
Fri, 03 December 2004 17:45 |
flyingfox
Messages: 1612
Registered: February 2003
Location: scotland, uk
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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don't think that there are really any serious balance issues in Renegade
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Haha. Ever considered stand up comedian work?
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If you can't get a shotgunner close enough to a sak/havoc or an mrl for that matter, tough cookies, practice more, get better, grow up.
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http://homepage.ntlworld.com/k.livingston/puppet.jpg
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| Fix the damn gun [message #123963] |
Fri, 03 December 2004 19:33 |
Hulkcore
Messages: 64
Registered: April 2004
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Me telling you to grow up prooves absolutely nothing other than the fact that I think it's stupid to whine about how some sniper kicked your ass. It's a game and if you aren't good at it, that's not the games fault. And yes, I don't think there are any SERIOUS balance issues in Renegade. I think that what the dev team did was incredibly ambitious and I think that they did a very good job of balancing multiple types of infantry, vehicles, and drestructable buildings into a game that is incredibly fun to play. I would rather have fun that realism.
And your picture niether makes sense nor proves anything. The sakura was trying to kill you? You're on the same team. Even if it was a Havoc, I've been in that situation many times, on both sides of the rifle and have both killed the sniper and have been killed. So I can't explain why you can't. Practice harder.
Another thing about helis, without pic/rave/sak/havoc nothing can touch them other than other helis. So the ramjet balances the helis because without it, they would be nearly unstoppable. The pic/rave doesn't have the range that the ramjet does, therefore helis would be incredibly tough to kill.
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| Fix the damn gun [message #123966] |
Fri, 03 December 2004 20:01 |
flyingfox
Messages: 1612
Registered: February 2003
Location: scotland, uk
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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It was a paint cut & paste, and the point was: why should you have to try a thousand times harder than the sniper and still die? what kind of a sniper lets himself be seen anyways.....renegade doesn't make sense.
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| Fix the damn gun [message #123997] |
Fri, 03 December 2004 22:37 |
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GetSm0keD
Messages: 277
Registered: November 2004
Karma: 0
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It's WAR people! So you get Own3d every once in a while, it just means that their team was better than yours, deal with it!
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you win some you lose some! hah
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| Fix the damn gun [message #124003] |
Sat, 04 December 2004 00:25 |
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Aircraftkiller
Messages: 8213
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 1
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General (5 Stars) |
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Hulkcore you don't know shit. You're the same kind of person who thinks the AWP in CS is balanced.
Ramjets can kill you from anywhere you can be seen. They reach the maximum view distance and easily tear apart light vehicles, infantry, and even damage structures with their charge of C4 explosives.
In C&C, which this obviously is not anymore, commando units such as the "ramjet snipers" in Renegade could barely damage vehicles. They killed infantry and that was their entire purpose, along with structure demolition.
Command & Conquer was balanced. Renegade is not. One unit should not be so multipurpose as to totally negate the need for several units.
You would say it's balanced to have a button that only Havoc\Sakura can press that instantly kills the enemy team, if it were placed inside the Barracks\Hand of Nod. You would argue that you'd need more skill in order to get to their base and prevent them from pressing the button that effectively kills your entire team over and over until they decide to stop doing it.
It doesn't take skill. Neither does using a n00b cannon Havoc\Sakura. I went into Renegade with it the past two days and easily destroyed everything without a problem, and got over 170 kills on a particular server over the course of five or six games before being banned for "known cheater," even though RenGuard was running.
n00b cannons are not balanced. Renegade is not balanced. It may be whining, but that's irrelevant, I'd rather whine than have idiots like you dictate how the game is played when you know nothing about what makes a game Command & Conquer.
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| Fix the damn gun [message #124004] |
Sat, 04 December 2004 00:36 |
msgtpain
Messages: 663
Registered: March 2003
Location: Montana
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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You are a known cheater... you admited it in a thread on these forums...
Aside from that, you're an ass.. and asses aren't allowed to play on our server.. Read the rules if you don't believe me.
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| Fix the damn gun [message #124062] |
Sat, 04 December 2004 09:09 |
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glyde51
Messages: 1827
Registered: August 2004
Location: Winnipeg
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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These images are from the successful prototype for Renegade2. I designed and built the level to prove a concept - that the W3D engine could handle a larger amount of polygons than was previously attempted - Renegade 1 was designed around an out dated minimum spec. I wanted to show that by using well designed low poly geometry and limited textures, you could still get a richly detailed environment. In the final demo, the polys were still reduced even further with no real loss of detail.
These models are the first in a series of tests - built and rendered in Lightwave. The finals were exported into Max with UVs and placed into the W3D engine. The level was finally based around a scavenger culture that eventually turns into the organization known to Command and Conquer fans as Nod.
Also - I personally believe that where possible, a real time game should include geometry that enhances the experience of moving through a believable environment - a virtual playground so to speak.
You can view an ingame animation in "Motion Graphics" and see screen shots in "GameArt".
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Renegade 2 was made on the W3D engine. SHUT YOUR TRAP NOW.
No. Seriously. No.
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| Fix the damn gun [message #124072] |
Sat, 04 December 2004 09:50 |
msgtpain
Messages: 663
Registered: March 2003
Location: Montana
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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| =[DT |
=gbull=[L]=]| AirCraftKiller |
I can't wait to get RA working on Source, then you'll see what Renegade really was supposed to be like. Not this cripple of a game that it is right now.
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you seem pretty sure of yourself. Dont <spellcheck>disapoint</spellcheck> now.
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You know, the best part about this comment is how it is a complete reversal of history.. I don't know how many times over the last 2 years that I've heard Ack chastise someone for saying another engine is better than Renegade's. The reason Renegade sucks has always been "they didn't have time to tweak the engine correctly" and "you can't even comprehend what this engine is capable of"..
Now they have to move to Source to show you what Renegade was supposed to be like? ROFL..
I guess Dante finally opened their eyes to what he saw almost a year ago..
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| Fix the damn gun [message #124124] |
Sat, 04 December 2004 11:23 |
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liberator
Messages: 246
Registered: May 2003
Location: Classified, Level Phi cle...
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The whole point of the game is that Havoc is supposed to be the commando from the Original C&C. Well, give him a regular sniper rifle and the C4 amount that Hotties get. This would make him the Commando from the Original C&C, he could kill people from long-range, but not vehicles, and he could enter buildings with a resonable chance of killing them, just like the C&C commando.
There was a time when people were impressed that I have the firepower to decimate a planet in under 10 minutes.
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| Fix the damn gun [message #124167] |
Sat, 04 December 2004 13:54 |
knight1b
Messages: 70
Registered: August 2004
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I will have to check (ive got the original manual and other documentation here somewhere) but i dont recall the commando in the original c&c haveing a sniper rifle as his wepon to start with.
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| Fix the damn gun [message #124192] |
Sat, 04 December 2004 15:40 |
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Aircraftkiller
Messages: 8213
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 1
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General (5 Stars) |
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| msgtpain |
You are a known cheater... you admited it in a thread on these forums...
Aside from that, you're an ass.. and asses aren't allowed to play on our server.. Read the rules if you don't believe me.
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That's your excuse for wanting to ban me for your little vendetta. If you're playing the "lets remove asses" card, you need to remove most of your players, especially yourself. There are not many people who constantly be an ass and preach about not being an ass, but you sir are one of them.
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You know, the best part about this comment is how it is a complete reversal of history.. I don't know how many times over the last 2 years that I've heard Ack chastise someone for saying another engine is better than Renegade's. The reason Renegade sucks has always been "they didn't have time to tweak the engine correctly" and "you can't even comprehend what this engine is capable of"..
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So? I saw the difference and went with it. I have never said I can't be wrong and in many cases I am. I don't like being wrong so I make it a case in point to be right as often as possible. You on the other hand preach "don't be an ass, you'll get banned and it's not nice" but you go around and do it anyway. When questioned, you bring out the "I'm just stooping to your level" excuse... Sorry man, but even the police can't rob a bank and say they're stooping to the level of a common robber... They get punished too.
Or are you just an asshole who thinks he can do whatever he wants because you're above your own rules?
Knight1b, the Commando always had a sniper rifle. It was a .50 caliber "Raptor" rifle that looked more like a shotgun than anything else. It killed most infantry with one shot, some taking two.
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| Fix the damn gun [message #124194] |
Sat, 04 December 2004 15:46 |
Opalkilla
Messages: 262
Registered: September 2004
Location: USA
Karma: 0
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Stop bitching about the game and play it. You don't like the way EA made it? Then don't play it
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| Fix the damn gun [message #124222] |
Sat, 04 December 2004 17:13 |
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liberator
Messages: 246
Registered: May 2003
Location: Classified, Level Phi cle...
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| knight1b |
I will have to check (ive got the original manual and other documentation here somewhere) but i dont recall the commando in the original c&c haveing a sniper rifle as his wepon to start with.
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http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/cncgold/gunits.html
Seems pretty obvious though, he kill infantry at 3x the range of other infantry.
There was a time when people were impressed that I have the firepower to decimate a planet in under 10 minutes.
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| Fix the damn gun [message #124408] |
Sun, 05 December 2004 13:17 |
Hulkcore
Messages: 64
Registered: April 2004
Karma: 0
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| Aircraftkiller |
Hulkcore you don't know shit. You're the same kind of person who thinks the AWP in CS is balanced.
Ramjets can kill you from anywhere you can be seen. They reach the maximum view distance and easily tear apart light vehicles, infantry, and even damage structures with their charge of C4 explosives.
In C&C, which this obviously is not anymore, commando units such as the "ramjet snipers" in Renegade could barely damage vehicles. They killed infantry and that was their entire purpose, along with structure demolition.
Command & Conquer was balanced. Renegade is not. One unit should not be so multipurpose as to totally negate the need for several units.
You would say it's balanced to have a button that only Havoc\Sakura can press that instantly kills the enemy team, if it were placed inside the Barracks\Hand of Nod. You would argue that you'd need more skill in order to get to their base and prevent them from pressing the button that effectively kills your entire team over and over until they decide to stop doing it.
It doesn't take skill. Neither does using a n00b cannon Havoc\Sakura. I went into Renegade with it the past two days and easily destroyed everything without a problem, and got over 170 kills on a particular server over the course of five or six games before being banned for "known cheater," even though RenGuard was running.
n00b cannons are not balanced. Renegade is not balanced. It may be whining, but that's irrelevant, I'd rather whine than have idiots like you dictate how the game is played when you know nothing about what makes a game Command & Conquer.
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I could really care less if Renegade is an exact replica of C&C 1. I don't want it to be. I want it to be Renegade. Renegade cannot and will never translate to anything close to C&C 1. Why? Because they are completly different games. In the RTS, you could also have hundreds of different units on each team, that can't happen in Renegade, so it is necessary to make every unit multifunctional. When you're limited to around 16 ppl per team in general, you need stuff to be multi purpose, hence mob/mend being good at killing anything close to it. Hence Gunner being good at killing almost anything if the user has some aiming skill. Hence APC's being able to hold their own against lights and stanks, as well as mobs/pics/etc... Hence every infantry having c4. Hence, Helis being good against tanks and infantry.
And how's this for balance? The heli is nearly impervious to sniper fire and mostly all infantry. So now we have a unit that can ONLY be taken down by other helis. That's not realistic nor balanced at all. In real life, and in C&C 1, the counter to Helis is a nice GUIDED missle, which due to the limitations of the engine, we can't have. So...to keep the heli from bringing unchallenged death and destruction, there needs to be at lease something to take it out, so...snipers.
I would see it as unbalanced if NOD had ramjets and GDI didn't or vice versa, but since both teams have the exact same unit it's simply another reason to try and take out the HON/BAR asap, or kill the ref/pp and make them too damn expensive to buy. There's a billion ways to win Renegade matches, ramjets or no. As it is, the ramjet gives a good reason to stop sniping and take out a building or two so you can snipe unhindered.
And btw you're the idiot that's trying to dictate how the game should be played. I simply enjoy it for what it is, a GREAT game that I love. You're the asshole trying to push his gripes about sucking against snipers on me and everyone else.
And what the hell, you're making up a random killing button? What does that have to do with anything? You're a complete moron. Does it take skill to defend against good snipers? Yes. Does it take skill to take out the HON/BAR, yes. So? Get better.
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| Fix the damn gun [message #124438] |
Sun, 05 December 2004 14:58 |
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m1a1_abrams
Messages: 375
Registered: August 2003
Karma: 0
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Commander |
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You make some good points. Personally I would like to have seen Renegade be as close to the original C&C as possible, but not everyone feels that way and I could still be happy with Renegade + all the things that weren't in Tiberian Dawn... if I felt that the gameplay was balanced.
You talked about how it takes skill to deal with snipers and I'd agree with that, particularly in the case of flying an Orca or Apache. The problem is that it doesn't take much skill to shoot a large target with an instant-hit weapon (that just happens to do a ridiculous amount of damage per shot to light armour), from halfway across the map. From my experience, a handful of Ramjet snipers can deal with twice their number in aircraft quite easily. The only time that aircraft become a threat to snipers is at medium-close range... and by the time that you've reached medium range the sniper has taken away nearly all of your health. You have to be a pretty good player to use aircraft effectively against an enemy team using Ramjets, but even a mediocre player can keep aircraft at bay with his 1000 point sniper. Snipers are overpowered against aircraft, plain and simple.
Of course, once the Hand or Barracks is down the situation is turned on it's head and it's the aircraft that become overpowered (it's almost impossible to down a good pilot without snipers). I can't see how anyone can look at this and think to themselves that Renegade's gameplay is perfectly balanced and that people who complain about snipers (or aircraft, for that matter), are just not very good at the game.
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