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Litmus test for liberals [message #108385]

Mon, 16 August 2004 19:25

Javaxcx
Messages: 1943
Registered: February 2003
Location: Canada, eh?

Karma:

General (1 Star)

NukeIt15

I hate seeing people yak on and on about how the US defied the UN- they talk about the UN as if it had the authority to govern member nations. Nuh-uh. All member nations are still independent and free to make their own choices. The US constitution grants the authority to make war on the US government, not an outside organization (just because France or Russia doesn't want the US to go to war, the US can still go to war because the US government supercedes the authority of the UN).

Not quite. You're right about the lack thereof to govern other nations, because nations are ASKED (or warned) not told to comply with resolutions. You're also right about being free to make your own choices. However, should those choices be in violation of the law agreed to by the Member States in 1945 and onward, then at the end of the day, the act was still illegal. Illegal, of course, in terms of the international law that Member AGREED to. In 1945, quite a few people said "yeah, we'll play by these rules". Those rules are the United Nations Charter.

All of these rules can be found here: http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/
I trust you to have more sense then Nodbugger and read them before commenting on them.

As for the United States government superceding the United Nations. Heh. I can't agree with that. Sure, you've got the biggest guns, but you've locked the ball'n'chain around yourselves when you signed that 'contract'. The fact of the matter is, Resolution 1441 was violated by both Iraq and the United States (and in essence, all nations in the Coalition of the Willing). If the U.S. is going to call Iraq's actions against resolutions illegal, then do the same thing, but claim it not to be illegal. Well, there is a problem there.

So I'm going to ask you:

Resolution 1441 says this: "Reaffirming the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Iraq, Kuwait, and the neighbouring States,"

That statement runs back all the way to Resolution 686 in 1990 in terms of Iraq.

Was this commitment (you can find it in the Charter in article 2 I believe) at the end of the day upheld and implimented by the United States and the CoW as per their authority of Resolution 678? If not, then this war is illegal. If so, prove it.

Quote:

At the beginning of the Iraq war, the simple fact is that nearly the entire security council was in violation of UN resolutions in one way or another.

You're absolutely right. I was aghast when I read that the Security Council didn't condemn this attack dispite its obvious violation of 1441 and previous resolutions. It's suspicious.

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[Message index]

		Litmus test for liberals By: Crimson on Wed, 04 August 2004 19:35
		Re: Litmus test for liberals By: Nodbugger on Wed, 04 August 2004 19:40
		Litmus test for liberals By: Fabian on Wed, 04 August 2004 20:54
		Litmus test for liberals By: Javaxcx on Wed, 04 August 2004 21:09
		Litmus test for liberals By: Crimson on Thu, 05 August 2004 00:04
		Litmus test for liberals By: NHJ BV on Thu, 05 August 2004 00:27
		^^^^^^^^^^ By: punkun21 on Thu, 05 August 2004 03:48
		Litmus test for liberals By: Fabian on Thu, 05 August 2004 05:03
		Re: ^^^^^^^^^^ By: NHJ BV on Thu, 05 August 2004 06:06
		Litmus test for liberals By: warranto on Thu, 05 August 2004 07:53
		Litmus test for liberals By: Javaxcx on Thu, 05 August 2004 11:00
		Litmus test for liberals By: Pak on Thu, 05 August 2004 11:21
		Litmus test for liberals By: SuperFlyingEngi on Thu, 05 August 2004 11:51
		Litmus test for liberals By: Pak on Thu, 05 August 2004 12:23
		Litmus test for liberals By: MrBob on Thu, 05 August 2004 13:00
		Litmus test for liberals By: Pak on Thu, 05 August 2004 13:52
		Litmus test for liberals By: SuperFlyingEngi on Thu, 05 August 2004 13:53
		Litmus test for liberals By: MrBob on Thu, 05 August 2004 15:04
		Litmus test for liberals By: Hydra on Thu, 05 August 2004 19:13
		Litmus test for liberals By: NHJ BV on Thu, 05 August 2004 23:26
		Litmus test for liberals By: Hydra on Thu, 05 August 2004 23:49
		Litmus test for liberals By: SuperFlyingEngi on Fri, 06 August 2004 07:24
		Litmus test for liberals By: Crimson on Fri, 06 August 2004 10:43
		Litmus test for liberals By: NukeIt15 on Sat, 07 August 2004 08:00
		Litmus test for liberals By: Javaxcx on Sat, 07 August 2004 08:03
		Litmus test for liberals By: setstyle on Sat, 07 August 2004 15:15
		Litmus test for liberals By: MrBob on Sat, 07 August 2004 16:20
		Litmus test for liberals By: NHJ BV on Sun, 08 August 2004 00:48
		Litmus test for liberals By: MrBob on Sun, 08 August 2004 02:02
		Litmus test for liberals By: NHJ BV on Sun, 08 August 2004 06:24
		Litmus test for liberals By: Crimson on Mon, 09 August 2004 09:57
		Litmus test for liberals By: Nodbugger on Mon, 09 August 2004 12:56
		Litmus test for liberals By: Hydra on Mon, 09 August 2004 14:22
		Litmus test for liberals By: Nodbugger on Mon, 09 August 2004 15:04
		Litmus test for liberals By: Crimson on Mon, 09 August 2004 16:03
		Litmus test for liberals By: Nodbugger on Mon, 09 August 2004 16:39
		Litmus test for liberals By: Doitle on Mon, 09 August 2004 20:34
		Litmus test for liberals By: NHJ BV on Mon, 09 August 2004 23:13
		foolios By: ViperFUD on Tue, 10 August 2004 04:34
		Litmus test for liberals By: Fabian on Tue, 10 August 2004 05:01
		Litmus test for liberals By: Hydra on Tue, 10 August 2004 11:32
		Litmus test for liberals By: Fabian on Tue, 10 August 2004 11:54
		Litmus test for liberals By: Gizbotvas on Tue, 10 August 2004 14:02
		Litmus test for liberals By: Nodbugger on Tue, 10 August 2004 14:24
		Litmus test for liberals By: Fabian on Tue, 10 August 2004 14:43
		Litmus test for liberals By: Nodbugger on Tue, 10 August 2004 14:44
		Litmus test for liberals By: Crimson on Tue, 10 August 2004 14:48
		Litmus test for liberals By: Fabian on Tue, 10 August 2004 14:53
		Litmus test for liberals By: SuperFlyingEngi on Tue, 10 August 2004 16:10
		Litmus test for liberals By: Nodbugger on Tue, 10 August 2004 16:15
		Litmus test for liberals By: Crimson on Tue, 10 August 2004 16:20
		Litmus test for liberals By: Fabian on Tue, 10 August 2004 17:18
		Litmus test for liberals By: Crimson on Tue, 10 August 2004 18:23
		Litmus test for liberals By: Doitle on Tue, 10 August 2004 19:45
		Litmus test for liberals By: NHJ BV on Wed, 11 August 2004 01:10
		Litmus test for liberals By: Fabian on Wed, 11 August 2004 04:53
		Litmus test for liberals By: Javaxcx on Wed, 11 August 2004 07:33
		Litmus test for liberals By: SuperFlyingEngi on Wed, 11 August 2004 09:27
		Litmus test for liberals By: Nodbugger on Wed, 11 August 2004 10:12
		Litmus test for liberals By: Javaxcx on Wed, 11 August 2004 10:40
		Litmus test for liberals By: Crimson on Wed, 11 August 2004 10:48
		Litmus test for liberals By: Hydra on Wed, 11 August 2004 18:29
		Litmus test for liberals By: NHJ BV on Thu, 12 August 2004 01:16
		Litmus test for liberals By: SuperFlyingEngi on Thu, 12 August 2004 05:13
		Litmus test for liberals By: Gizbotvas on Thu, 12 August 2004 08:23
		Litmus test for liberals By: Nodbugger on Thu, 12 August 2004 08:30
		Litmus test for liberals By: Fabian on Thu, 12 August 2004 10:23
		Litmus test for liberals By: Crimson on Thu, 12 August 2004 10:35
		Litmus test for liberals By: Gizbotvas on Thu, 12 August 2004 10:44
		Litmus test for liberals By: Gizbotvas on Thu, 12 August 2004 10:50
		Litmus test for liberals By: Nodbugger on Thu, 12 August 2004 11:16
		Litmus test for liberals By: NukeIt15 on Thu, 12 August 2004 13:24
		Litmus test for liberals By: Crimson on Thu, 12 August 2004 14:11
		Litmus test for liberals By: warranto on Thu, 12 August 2004 16:09
		Litmus test for liberals By: Javaxcx on Fri, 13 August 2004 03:28
		Litmus test for liberals By: ViperFUD on Fri, 13 August 2004 04:32
		Litmus test for liberals By: Javaxcx on Fri, 13 August 2004 05:13
		Litmus test for liberals By: Nodbugger on Fri, 13 August 2004 06:28
		Litmus test for liberals By: Javaxcx on Fri, 13 August 2004 06:32
		Litmus test for liberals By: NukeIt15 on Fri, 13 August 2004 07:23
		Litmus test for liberals By: Gizbotvas on Fri, 13 August 2004 12:41
		Litmus test for liberals By: Nodbugger on Fri, 13 August 2004 13:01
		Litmus test for liberals By: AlostSOul on Fri, 13 August 2004 14:04
		Litmus test for liberals By: Nodbugger on Fri, 13 August 2004 14:14
		Litmus test for liberals By: Crimson on Fri, 13 August 2004 17:02
		Litmus test for liberals By: Nodbugger on Fri, 13 August 2004 17:12
		Litmus test for liberals By: Gizbotvas on Mon, 16 August 2004 13:12
		Litmus test for liberals By: Gizbotvas on Mon, 16 August 2004 13:13
		Litmus test for liberals By: Javaxcx on Mon, 16 August 2004 13:16
		Litmus test for liberals By: Nodbugger on Mon, 16 August 2004 14:42
		Litmus test for liberals By: Nodbugger on Mon, 16 August 2004 14:42
		Litmus test for liberals By: SuperFlyingEngi on Mon, 16 August 2004 15:03
		Litmus test for liberals By: Javaxcx on Mon, 16 August 2004 15:12
		Litmus test for liberals By: hareman on Mon, 16 August 2004 15:40
		Litmus test for liberals By: warranto on Mon, 16 August 2004 17:44
		Litmus test for liberals By: NukeIt15 on Mon, 16 August 2004 18:57
		Litmus test for liberals By: Javaxcx on Mon, 16 August 2004 19:25
		Litmus test for liberals By: Crimson on Mon, 16 August 2004 23:12
		Litmus test for liberals By: Nodbugger on Tue, 17 August 2004 06:46
		Litmus test for liberals By: Gizbotvas on Tue, 17 August 2004 09:38
		Litmus test for liberals By: Fabian on Tue, 17 August 2004 10:51
		Litmus test for liberals By: warranto on Tue, 17 August 2004 11:24
		Litmus test for liberals By: ViperFUD on Tue, 17 August 2004 11:47
		Litmus test for liberals By: Nodbugger on Tue, 17 August 2004 12:02
		Litmus test for liberals By: Nodbugger on Tue, 17 August 2004 12:20
		Litmus test for liberals By: Nodbugger on Tue, 17 August 2004 12:25
		Litmus test for liberals By: Nodbugger on Tue, 17 August 2004 12:37
		Litmus test for liberals By: Gizbotvas on Tue, 17 August 2004 12:58
		Litmus test for liberals By: Nodbugger on Tue, 17 August 2004 13:04
		Litmus test for liberals By: Gizbotvas on Tue, 17 August 2004 13:04
		Litmus test for liberals By: Nodbugger on Tue, 17 August 2004 13:09
		Litmus test for liberals By: warranto on Tue, 17 August 2004 13:10
		Litmus test for liberals By: SuperFlyingEngi on Tue, 17 August 2004 13:30
		Litmus test for liberals By: warranto on Tue, 17 August 2004 13:37
		Litmus test for liberals By: Nodbugger on Tue, 17 August 2004 14:10
		Litmus test for liberals By: NukeIt15 on Tue, 17 August 2004 14:53
		Litmus test for liberals By: warranto on Tue, 17 August 2004 15:29
		Litmus test for liberals By: Nodbugger on Tue, 17 August 2004 15:56
		Litmus test for liberals By: warranto on Tue, 17 August 2004 16:03
		Litmus test for liberals By: Nodbugger on Tue, 17 August 2004 16:09
		Litmus test for liberals By: warranto on Tue, 17 August 2004 17:22
		Litmus test for liberals By: Nodbugger on Tue, 17 August 2004 17:33
		Litmus test for liberals By: Fabian on Tue, 17 August 2004 17:57
		Litmus test for liberals By: Nodbugger on Tue, 17 August 2004 19:04
		Litmus test for liberals By: Hydra on Tue, 17 August 2004 19:51
		Litmus test for liberals By: warranto on Tue, 17 August 2004 19:56
		Litmus test for liberals By: warranto on Tue, 17 August 2004 21:22
		Litmus test for liberals By: Javaxcx on Wed, 18 August 2004 02:58
		Litmus test for liberals By: ViperFUD on Wed, 18 August 2004 04:32
		Litmus test for liberals By: Nodbugger on Wed, 18 August 2004 08:52
		Litmus test for liberals By: Javaxcx on Wed, 18 August 2004 09:19
		You 5. By: ViperFUD on Wed, 18 August 2004 09:48
		Litmus test for liberals By: warranto on Wed, 18 August 2004 11:28
		Litmus test for liberals By: Crimson on Wed, 18 August 2004 11:41
		Litmus test for liberals By: warranto on Wed, 18 August 2004 11:47
		Litmus test for liberals By: Javaxcx on Wed, 18 August 2004 11:57
		Litmus test for liberals By: Gizbotvas on Wed, 18 August 2004 14:13
		Litmus test for liberals By: Javaxcx on Wed, 18 August 2004 14:59
		Litmus test for liberals By: Hydra on Wed, 18 August 2004 19:36
		Litmus test for liberals By: Javaxcx on Wed, 18 August 2004 20:36
		Litmus test for liberals By: NHJ BV on Thu, 19 August 2004 00:16
		Litmus test for liberals By: NukeIt15 on Thu, 19 August 2004 11:43
		Litmus test for liberals By: Javaxcx on Thu, 19 August 2004 12:37
		Litmus test for liberals By: Phoenix - Aeon on Thu, 19 August 2004 13:40
		Litmus test for liberals By: Nodbugger on Thu, 19 August 2004 13:50
		Litmus test for liberals By: Crimson on Thu, 19 August 2004 16:36
		Litmus test for liberals By: SuperFlyingEngi on Thu, 19 August 2004 18:55
		Litmus test for liberals By: Nodbugger on Thu, 19 August 2004 18:57
		Litmus test for liberals By: NukeIt15 on Thu, 19 August 2004 19:14
		Litmus test for liberals By: Javaxcx on Thu, 19 August 2004 20:26
		Litmus test for liberals By: Phoenix - Aeon on Fri, 20 August 2004 04:19
		Litmus test for liberals By: ViperFUD on Fri, 20 August 2004 05:33
		Litmus test for liberals By: Doitle on Fri, 20 August 2004 11:15
		Litmus test for liberals By: Hydra on Fri, 20 August 2004 14:07
		Litmus test for liberals By: Fabian on Fri, 20 August 2004 16:46
		Litmus test for liberals By: Nodbugger on Fri, 20 August 2004 16:49
		Litmus test for liberals By: Hydra on Fri, 20 August 2004 19:44
		Litmus test for liberals By: NHJ BV on Sat, 21 August 2004 00:49
		Litmus test for liberals By: Javaxcx on Sat, 21 August 2004 03:02
		Litmus test for liberals By: Phoenix - Aeon on Sat, 21 August 2004 08:29

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