Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » Martial Law
| Martial Law [message #104160] |
Sun, 25 July 2004 19:58  |
Riftgarde
Messages: 28
Registered: March 2004
Karma: 0
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Instead of new laws we'll have to live with for almost ever, how about martial law that is mandated to expire in 5 years.
Sure, people will have restricted freedom temporarily, but after the 5 years they might appreciate freedom a little more than they are now.
I think there are enough domestic threats to justify it.
It's like a band saw in shop class, a student asks to use the bathroom, when he returns he notices the band saw is alot higher in pitch than when he left. No one else notices the sound difference since it was gradually getting worse instead of all at once. The student that left for five minutes knows the blade is about to snap and injure people.
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| Martial Law [message #104180] |
Sun, 25 July 2004 22:47  |
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liberator
Messages: 246
Registered: May 2003
Location: Classified, Level Phi cle...
Karma: 0
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I'm not entirely sure what you mean.
Are you actually saying you would prefer Martial Law instead of the very limited increase powers we've given the Government?
Are you insane?
Martial Law gives Government the right to use and abuse anybody or anything by any means possible. You're talking about giving the Politicians the right to round up everyone who doesn't agree with them and send them to concentration camps if that's what they wanted. You're talking about turning the United States of America into fucking Nazi Germany.
I'm sorry, no.
There was a time when people were impressed that I have the firepower to decimate a planet in under 10 minutes.
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| Martial Law [message #104187] |
Mon, 26 July 2004 08:47 |
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SuperFlyingEngi
Messages: 1756
Registered: November 2003
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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Just like the Patriot Act!
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
"The danger to political dissent is acute where the Government attempts to act under so vague a concept as the power to protect "domestic security." Given the difficulty of defining the domestic security interest, the danger of abuse in acting to protect that interest becomes apparent. --U.S. Supreme Court decision (407 U.S. 297 (1972)
The Liberal Media At Work
An objective look at media partisanship
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| Martial Law [message #104208] |
Mon, 26 July 2004 09:52 |
Riftgarde
Messages: 28
Registered: March 2004
Karma: 0
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Watched "The Siege" one too many times have we?
It just means you'll see 2 MP's in a humvee on Cops arresting some jerk instead of 10 police officers in 6 police cars.
The military becomes the police when the civilian law enforcement agencies are unable to maintain public order and safety.
And the oath of this temporary law enforcement:
I, do solemnly swear, or affirm, that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.
Unless you consider the Constitution as the only law as "fucking nazi germany" Which I guess some do since it's attacked and bastardized over and over again.
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| Martial Law [message #104297] |
Mon, 26 July 2004 16:06 |
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SuperFlyingEngi
Messages: 1756
Registered: November 2003
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| The U.S. Patriot Act |
Sec. 201. Authority to intercept wire, oral, and electronic communications relating to terrorism.
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The FBI gets to wiretap whatever they want as long as they're running a terrorism investigation.
| The U.S. Patriot Act |
Sec. 202. Authority to intercept wire, oral, and electronic communications relating to computer fraud and abuse offenses.
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The FBI gets to wiretap whatever they want as long as they're running a computer investigation.
| The U.S. Patriot Act |
Sec. 207. Duration of FISA surveillance of non-United States persons who are agents of a foreign power.
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Survey non-US citizens all we want.
| The U.S. Patriot Act |
Sec. 209. Seizure of voice-mail messages pursuant to warrants.
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More tapping of otherwise private communications.
| The U.S. Patriot Act |
Sec. 219. Single-jurisdiction search warrants for terrorism.
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Instead of the good 'ole search warrants where the police get access to break into someone's house during said hour of said day, now the police can get a warrant to break in to anything the suspect owns any time they want to. It sounds like a good idea for fighting crime, but it's actually a horrendous idea when you're one of the many people who are guilty and get searched.
| The U.S. Patriot Act |
Sec. 225. Immunity for compliance with FISA wiretap.
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Yay! Wiretap immunity!
| The U.S. Patriot Act |
Sec. 412. Mandatory detention of suspected terrorists; habeas corpus; judicial review.
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Let's put people in jail and not give them a lawyer!
| The U.S. Patriot Act |
Sec. 416. Foreign student monitoring program
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Spying on foreign exchange students.
| The U.S. Patriot Act |
Sec. 501. Attorney General's authority to pay rewards to combat terrorism.
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Remember back during the Cold War where we trained people like Osama to fight the Communists? Yeah, it's kind of like that. We also gave Iraq and other such places money and guns to say they didn't like communism.
| The U.S. Patriot Act |
Sec. 502. Secretary of State's authority to pay rewards.
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Remember back during the Cold War where we trained people like Osama to fight the Communists? Yeah, it's kind of like that. We also gave Iraq and other such places money and guns to say they didn't like communism.
| Section 412 of the U.S. Patriot Act |
`(6) LIMITATION ON INDEFINITE DETENTION- An alien detained solely under paragraph (1) who has not been removed under section 241(a)(1)(A), and whose removal is unlikely in the reasonably foreseeable future, may be detained for additional periods of up to six months only if the release of the alien will threaten the national security of the United States or the safety of the community or any person.
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We get to hold people in jail without a lawyer!
By the way, I got all of this stuff from http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html where I located a copy of the U.S. Patriot Act, and I located the site of Google.
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
"The danger to political dissent is acute where the Government attempts to act under so vague a concept as the power to protect "domestic security." Given the difficulty of defining the domestic security interest, the danger of abuse in acting to protect that interest becomes apparent. --U.S. Supreme Court decision (407 U.S. 297 (1972)
The Liberal Media At Work
An objective look at media partisanship
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| Martial Law [message #104352] |
Tue, 27 July 2004 05:29 |
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ViperFUD
Messages: 69
Registered: April 2003
Karma: 0
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This is gonna be long. just warnin ya.
| Quote: |
Sec. 201. Authority to intercept wire, oral, and electronic communications relating to terrorism.
The FBI gets to wiretap whatever they want as long as they're running a terrorism investigation.
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No. Actually, this section did two things; it agreed with the Anti-Terror act of 1996, which made falsification of identification for the purposes of entering the country ("relating to fraud and misuse of visas, permits, and other documents") an offense which falls under the jurisdiction of the Attorney General and FBI, and also made "chemical weapons" and "terrorism" under their jursidiction. They still need a warrant issued by a federal judge (and all the proof that goes along with it) to do this.
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Sec. 202. Authority to intercept wire, oral, and electronic communications relating to computer fraud and abuse offenses.
The FBI gets to wiretap whatever they want as long as they're running a computer investigation.
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Read it again. This just adds "computer fraud and abuse" to the section of US code dealing with "mail fraud". Same thing, different medium. No new laws/procedures; ie. they still have to do everything they had to do for a mail fraud investigation.
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Sec. 207. Duration of FISA surveillance of non-United States persons who are agents of a foreign power.
Survey non-US citizens all we want.
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Yeah, or "120 days." In fact, this states that we cannot keep someone under surveillence for more than 4 months, even if the FBI applies to be allowed to survey them for a longer period of time. The only lessening of restriction was that a physical search can now last 90 days rather than 45.
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Sec. 209. Seizure of voice-mail messages pursuant to warrants.
More tapping of otherwise private communications.
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Again, you're missing the point. Did you actually read the act, or just the section headlines? This area just clarifies a law already in existance (whereby the FBI can seize voicemail and such) by changing "electronic" to "wire and electronic".
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Sec. 219. Single-jurisdiction search warrants for terrorism.
Instead of the good 'ole search warrants where the police get access to break into someone's house during said hour of said day, now the police can get a warrant to break in to anything the suspect owns any time they want to. It sounds like a good idea for fighting crime, but it's actually a horrendous idea when you're one of the many people who are guilty and get searched.
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Now this is just WRONG. What this does is make it so that in a case of terrorism, a Federal judge, rather than a Magistrate judge, may issue the warrant. No more, no less.
In addition, if you're guilty, I would rather you get searched than keep your bombs and blow me the fuck up. However, this DOES set a dangerous precident, so I would like the search to be kept legal and warranted and etc.
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Sec. 225. Immunity for compliance with FISA wiretap.
Yay! Wiretap immunity!
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What this says, and I quote, is, "No cause of action shall lie in any court against any provider of a wire or electronic communication service, landlord, custodian, or other person (including any officer, employee, agent, or other specified person thereof) that furnishes any information, facilities, or technical assistance in accordance with a court order or request for emergency assistance under this Act."
ie. If the government tells you to tap (or help them tap) someone who, say, is your tenant, then you cannot be sued or otherwise taken to court with following their orders. This does not give anyone wiretap immunity; it only gives immunity from prosecution for those who help the FBI (and not, incidently, to the FBI themselves).
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Sec. 412. Mandatory detention of suspected terrorists; habeas corpus; judicial review.
Let's put people in jail and not give them a lawyer!
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Again, not quite. But closer this time. This basically says that illegal aliens in the Attorney General's custody stay there until they leave the US. However, they receive habeas corpus ("produce the body") within 7 days, and they Attorny General must provide proof that either 1. They are an illegal alien or 2. They threaten "National Security" (<- that's the scary one - up to 6 months of detainment).
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Sec. 416. Foreign student monitoring program
Spying on foreign exchange students.
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True, but if you look at it, all it says is two things: (1) "The Attorney General ... shall fully implement and expand the program established by [the] ... Act of 1996" (it already exists; we're just not doing it yet ...) and (2) makes it so that ALL foreign exchange students and not just college ones are considered.
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Sec. 501. Attorney General's authority to pay rewards to combat terrorism.
Remember back during the Cold War where we trained people like Osama to fight the Communists? Yeah, it's kind of like that. We also gave Iraq and other such places money and guns to say they didn't like communism.
Sec. 502. Secretary of State's authority to pay rewards.
Remember back during the Cold War where we trained people like Osama to fight the Communists? Yeah, it's kind of like that. We also gave Iraq and other such places money and guns to say they didn't like communism.
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Actually, this looks more like getting paid to snitch on your neighbor, to me (still a Bad Thing) but it probably COULD be used they way you see it. It's not entirely clear to me, since this section seemed a little vague (to me).
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`(6) LIMITATION ON INDEFINITE DETENTION- An alien detained solely under paragraph (1) who has not been removed under section 241(a)(1)(A), and whose removal is unlikely in the reasonably foreseeable future, may be detained for additional periods of up to six months only if the release of the alien will threaten the national security of the United States or the safety of the community or any person.
We get to hold people in jail without a lawyer!
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Wel,, they get a lawyer, but we still get to hold them. See above.
Here's what I find scary:
| Patriot Act SEC. 213 |
AUTHORITY FOR DELAYING NOTICE OF THE EXECUTION OF A WARRANT.
DELAY- With respect to the issuance of any warrant or court order under this section, or any other rule of law, to search for and seize any property or material that constitutes evidence of a criminal offense in violation of the laws of the United States, any notice required, or that may be required, to be given may be delayed if--
`(1) the court finds reasonable cause to believe that providing immediate notification of the execution of the warrant may have an adverse result (as defined in section 2705);
`(2) the warrant prohibits the seizure of any tangible property, any wire or electronic communication (as defined in section 2510), or, except as expressly provided in chapter 121, any stored wire or electronic information, except where the court finds reasonable necessity for the seizure; and
`(3) the warrant provides for the giving of such notice within a reasonable period of its execution, which period may thereafter be extended by the court for good cause shown.'.
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Basically, we don't have to tell you if we're searching your shit, as long as
1. It'll let you hide shit we wanna find.
2. We're just looking, not taking anything. Unless the court wants us to take something specific.
3. You'll find out about it soon enough. Like, when we arrest you.
Anyway. You seem like a smart kid; next time make sure you read what it says and not just the title sections.
~Viper
P.S. In summary, the Patriot Act doesn't look like a scary "let's give the government more powers" law to me; it looks like it's saying, "Remember all those anti=terrorism laws we passed? Yeah. Let's actually DO those."
And shepherds we shall be,
For thee, my Lord, for thee.
Power hath descended forth from thy hand;
That our feet may swiftly carry out thy command.
And we shall flow a river forth to thee,
And teeming with souls shall it ever be.
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| Martial Law [message #104376] |
Tue, 27 July 2004 08:18 |
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SuperFlyingEngi
Messages: 1756
Registered: November 2003
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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Teach me to not spend the extra hour reading some of those sections. :oops:
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
"The danger to political dissent is acute where the Government attempts to act under so vague a concept as the power to protect "domestic security." Given the difficulty of defining the domestic security interest, the danger of abuse in acting to protect that interest becomes apparent. --U.S. Supreme Court decision (407 U.S. 297 (1972)
The Liberal Media At Work
An objective look at media partisanship
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