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| How equal are we? [message #103425] |
Fri, 23 July 2004 00:19  |
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warranto
Messages: 2584
Registered: February 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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I just finished watching a movie on Television, Kurt Vanneget's Harrisn Bergeron. Despite it playing out like a low budget movie, I found it rather interesting. The basis of the story is this:
Through automation, the uneducated are no longer needed, thus creating a rift in society where the majority of people are uneducated, unemployed people. Because of this the second American revolution occurs where the "elite" lose power and the common man takes control. A new constitution is written stating that Not man is created equal, so the government must enforce it. This works by handicaps being placed on athletes with good ability and mind-dulling bands that people must wear. All criminals are executed rather than wasting resources on failed attempts of rehibilitation, imprisionment etc. However, the average person may be able to hold government office (this was released in 1995, so no it's not an attack on Bush), hoever they can not run a country. Enter the secret organization of intelligent people who litterally are the brains behind it all.
I'll stop here, so as not to give to much away. I suggest seeing it though. It's in this section of the forums because I expect a debate on the right and wrong way of doing things will inevitably take place.
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| How equal are we? [message #103506] |
Fri, 23 July 2004 08:36  |
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U927
Messages: 709
Registered: February 2003
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL
Karma: 0
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I read the short story last year, and I found it quite interesting.
Basically in the US everybody has to be "average". Meaning the C's are the best grade you can get, and handicaps are placed on those who are smarter or stronger. For example, a 40-pound handicap bag can be placed on the arms and legs of baseball players and ballerinas, while the smart people wear headbands or headphones that distract them, not allowing them to concentrate.
What Kurt Vonnegut tries to tell us is that there is a limit to how equal society can be. I noticed in the movie that even though it was 21XX, people were dressed like they belonged in the Fifties. Perhaps this was to show how far humans have digressed in their search for ultimate equality?
Another thing that you must take into consideration is when the author wrote this short story. It was written in the Sixties, a time of cultural revolution. Perhaps all the events going on in America inspire this author to write a story about ultimate equality.
Nevertheless, I believe that ultimate equality can never be achievable. There will ALWAYS be at least one individual who will stand superior to all the others. Now matter how much they try, that civilization shown in Harrison Bergeron is doomed to fail.
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then, is not an act but a habit. - Aristotle
8-Bit Theatre. The power of evil compels you!
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| How equal are we? [message #103519] |
Fri, 23 July 2004 09:55 |
KIRBY098
Messages: 1546
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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I have never cared for sci fi in the extreem like this.
Human nature tends us towards revolt to the point of death when someone tries to tell us what to do. If someone told me to wear sandbags so some loser could keep up when he clearly isn't trying, I would promptly use those sandbags as a bolo.
The only thing we have ever been good at as a species is fighting.
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| How equal are we? [message #103543] |
Fri, 23 July 2004 11:17 |
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ViperFUD
Messages: 69
Registered: April 2003
Karma: 0
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| KIRBY098 |
I have never cared for sci fi in the extreem like this.
Human nature tends us towards revolt to the point of death when someone tries to tell us what to do. If someone told me to wear sandbags so some loser could keep up when he clearly isn't trying, I would promptly use those sandbags as a bolo.
The only thing we have ever been good at as a species is fighting.
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And whining.
And stabbing each other in the back.
And taking each other's shit.
Actually, it's amazing we've survived at all.
And shepherds we shall be,
For thee, my Lord, for thee.
Power hath descended forth from thy hand;
That our feet may swiftly carry out thy command.
And we shall flow a river forth to thee,
And teeming with souls shall it ever be.
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| How equal are we? [message #103546] |
Fri, 23 July 2004 11:19 |
KIRBY098
Messages: 1546
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| ViperFUD |
| KIRBY098 |
I have never cared for sci fi in the extreem like this.
Human nature tends us towards revolt to the point of death when someone tries to tell us what to do. If someone told me to wear sandbags so some loser could keep up when he clearly isn't trying, I would promptly use those sandbags as a bolo.
The only thing we have ever been good at as a species is fighting.
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And whining.
And stabbing each other in the back.
And taking each other's shit.
Actually, it's amazing we've survived at all.
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Those are just glorious by products of our inability to leave each other alone. I kind of lumped them all into one category. It always ends up there anyways.
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| How equal are we? [message #103582] |
Fri, 23 July 2004 12:21 |
mahkra
Messages: 219
Registered: April 2004
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| KIRBY098 |
Those are just glorious by products of our inability to leave each other alone. I kind of lumped them all into one category. It always ends up there anyways.
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Not true.
There are non-violent solutions as well, such as.... poison.
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| How equal are we? [message #103597] |
Fri, 23 July 2004 12:37 |
mahkra
Messages: 219
Registered: April 2004
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| K9Trooper |
| mahkra |
There are non-violent solutions as well, such as.... poison.
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To poison someone is assault. So in a sence it is violence.
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Yeah, I know. It was meant to be a joke.
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| How equal are we? [message #103599] |
Fri, 23 July 2004 12:38 |
KIRBY098
Messages: 1546
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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Spontaneous combustion was the only one I could think of.
I want to see that happen. Just once.
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| How equal are we? [message #103660] |
Fri, 23 July 2004 15:05 |
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SuperFlyingEngi
Messages: 1756
Registered: November 2003
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| K9Trooper |
Funny when you look at the big picture. It resembles the liberal side of the spectrum. The Liberals want to push for this "Equality" and keep people like me from succeeding while they give rewards to the underachievers, not to much but enough to keep them coming back to them for more. Like a drug dealer. The Conservatives make you earn your keep, giving you a reason to go to school and working hard, making you grow. Without growth you become dependant and that is what the liberals want out of you… Dependant of them.
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Affirmative action isn't about punishing people who work hard, it's about giving those who grow up in un-satisfactory conditions a chance as well. So, because they are born into a bad house, and go to lower quality schools, people who start out better should get everything? It's not about fitting everyone in to the same mold. It's about giving everyone an equal opportunity. They are not the same thing.
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
"The danger to political dissent is acute where the Government attempts to act under so vague a concept as the power to protect "domestic security." Given the difficulty of defining the domestic security interest, the danger of abuse in acting to protect that interest becomes apparent. --U.S. Supreme Court decision (407 U.S. 297 (1972)
The Liberal Media At Work
An objective look at media partisanship
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| How equal are we? [message #103667] |
Fri, 23 July 2004 15:16 |
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SuperFlyingEngi
Messages: 1756
Registered: November 2003
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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No, in fact, they are not true. You don't have to hurt the fortunate to help the lesser.
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
"The danger to political dissent is acute where the Government attempts to act under so vague a concept as the power to protect "domestic security." Given the difficulty of defining the domestic security interest, the danger of abuse in acting to protect that interest becomes apparent. --U.S. Supreme Court decision (407 U.S. 297 (1972)
The Liberal Media At Work
An objective look at media partisanship
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| How equal are we? [message #103669] |
Fri, 23 July 2004 15:17 |
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liberator
Messages: 246
Registered: May 2003
Location: Classified, Level Phi cle...
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"Affirmitive Action"...there's nothing affirmative about it. It'd be called Nepotism if it was a parent giving their son or daughter a superior position because their family.
You're reinforcing racism by basing employment/aid decisions on what skin color or ethnic background someone has instead of their ability to do the job or need.
There was a time when people were impressed that I have the firepower to decimate a planet in under 10 minutes.
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| How equal are we? [message #103674] |
Fri, 23 July 2004 15:52 |
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Crimson
Messages: 7429
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
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No, you're not seeing the big picture. There are some people who just don't have the intelligence, skills, patience, whatever, to be a millionaire or a star athlete. Some people would love to get what they need and sit at home all day.
Like the joke about a rich businessman who approached some young (20-something) adult on the beach.
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One day a fisherman was lying on a beautiful beach, with his fishing pole propped up in the sand and his solitary line cast out into the sparkling blue surf. He was enjoying the warmth of the afternoon sun and the prospect of catching a fish. About that time, a businessman came walking down the beach, trying to relieve some of the stress of his workday. He noticed the fisherman sitting on the beach and decided to find out why this fisherman was fishing instead of working harder to make a living for himself and his family. "You aren't going to catch many fish that way," said the businessman to the fisherman. "You should be working rather than lying on the beach!" The fisherman looked up at the businessman, smiled and replied, "And what will my reward be?" "Well, you can get bigger nets and catch more fish!" was the businessman's answer. "And then what will my reward be?" asked the fisherman, still smiling. The businessman replied, "You will make money and you'll be able to buy a boat, which will then result in larger catches of fish!" "And then what will my reward be?" asked the fisherman again. The businessman was beginning to get a little irritated with the fisherman's questions. "You can buy a bigger boat, and hire some people to work for you!" he said. "And then what will my reward be?" repeated the fisherman. The businessman was getting angry. "Don't you understand? You can build up a fleet of fishing boats, sail all over the world, and let all your employees catch fish for you!" Once again the fisherman asked, "And then what will my reward be?" The businessman was red with rage and shouted at the fisherman, "Don't you understand that you can become so rich that you will never have to work for your living again! You can spend all the rest of your days sitting on this beach, looking at the sunset. You won't have a care in the world!" The fisherman, still smiling, looked up and said, "And what do you think I'm doing right now?"
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Anyway, my point is... where does it end?
First, you try to boost people over the wall... some people are too short and can't get over it.
Next, you make the wall lower, but there still will be people who can't get over it.
Next, you start pushing people off the wall so they can't get over either, and the ones who can't won't feel so bad about their failures.
Competition is what makes us succeed overall. "Build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door"
You are truly the heart and soul of what's horribly scary about a liberal. Coupled with your blatant insistence not to look at facts or logic. You are a die-hard, hard core liberal to the bitter end with absolutely no open mind at all.
I'm the bawss.
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| How equal are we? [message #103684] |
Fri, 23 July 2004 16:57 |
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SuperFlyingEngi
Messages: 1756
Registered: November 2003
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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Ok, you try to boost people on the wall, in essence helping people, but you don't have to lower the wall or push people down. Giving everyone an equal opportunity is not the same thing as hurting others.
| Crimson |
You are truly the heart and soul of what's horribly scary about a liberal. Coupled with your blatant insistence not to look at facts or logic. You are a die-hard, hard core liberal to the bitter end with absolutely no open mind at all.
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I'm sorry, but that comment was too stupid for me to care about.
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
"The danger to political dissent is acute where the Government attempts to act under so vague a concept as the power to protect "domestic security." Given the difficulty of defining the domestic security interest, the danger of abuse in acting to protect that interest becomes apparent. --U.S. Supreme Court decision (407 U.S. 297 (1972)
The Liberal Media At Work
An objective look at media partisanship
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| How equal are we? [message #103692] |
Fri, 23 July 2004 17:21 |
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liberator
Messages: 246
Registered: May 2003
Location: Classified, Level Phi cle...
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Actually, it wasn't. You blindly and blithely accept whatever POV the guys in charge(Kerry, Clinton, ET AL) on the basis that they know what they're talking about. All they really care about is regaining the power they lost in 1996. Beyond that, they could care less about "the little guy" except as a means to manipulate one group or another.
There was a time when people were impressed that I have the firepower to decimate a planet in under 10 minutes.
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| How equal are we? [message #103694] |
Fri, 23 July 2004 17:34 |
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SuperFlyingEngi
Messages: 1756
Registered: November 2003
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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Hm...they could care less about the little guy, and yet Republicans support big corporations.
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
"The danger to political dissent is acute where the Government attempts to act under so vague a concept as the power to protect "domestic security." Given the difficulty of defining the domestic security interest, the danger of abuse in acting to protect that interest becomes apparent. --U.S. Supreme Court decision (407 U.S. 297 (1972)
The Liberal Media At Work
An objective look at media partisanship
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| How equal are we? [message #103700] |
Fri, 23 July 2004 18:13 |
mahkra
Messages: 219
Registered: April 2004
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| liberator |
You blindly and blithely accept whatever POV the guys in charge(Kerry, Clinton, ET AL) on the basis that they know what they're talking about.
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Hey, if you're going to say stuff like this, you should probably be attacking Crimson, too. (And probably most other people who vote...)
And Crimson, let's take a look at what you said:
| Crimson |
You are truly the heart and soul of what's horribly scary
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| Crimson |
your blatant insistence not to look at facts or logic.
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| Crimson |
absolutely no open mind at all.
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How can you say all of this but then attack everyone who says Dubya is an idiot? Your insistence that he's not severely retarded seems to be based on no facts or logic whatsoever...
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| How equal are we? [message #103723] |
Fri, 23 July 2004 20:06 |
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liberator
Messages: 246
Registered: May 2003
Location: Classified, Level Phi cle...
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Let's talk about "Dubya" just a minute.
His speech pattern, which people use as a sign that he is stupid, actually shows the opposite. He considers his words carefully before speaking, something that cannot be said of others.
While I don't pretend that he is as pure as the wind driven snow, I do know that he is a much better leader than any of the alternatives.
| Quote: |
Generic Reporter: Mr. Kerry, what is your stance on abortion?
John Kerry: I served in Vietnam!
A different Generic Reporter: What about The War on Terrorism?
John Kerry: I served in Vietnam!
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I think you get the picture.
I myself would prefer someone more conservative than Bush. But I will be sitting on a hot rock in Hades having tea with Bealzebub before I see the most liberal politican in Congress elected to the Presidency.
There was a time when people were impressed that I have the firepower to decimate a planet in under 10 minutes.
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| How equal are we? [message #103725] |
Fri, 23 July 2004 20:37 |
mahkra
Messages: 219
Registered: April 2004
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| liberator |
Let's talk about "Dubya" just a minute.
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| liberator |
He considers his words carefully before speaking,
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and yet he still manages to pick words that don't make sense. (Also, many of those times that he's "considering his words carefully," he's actually reading off of a teleprompter...)
| liberator |
While I don't pretend that he is as pure as the wind driven snow, I do know that he is a much better leader than any of the alternatives.
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I'm withholding my opinion on his leadership qualities. All I'm saying is that he's dumb as a brick. That doesn't necessarily mean he has to be bad at his job.
| liberator |
| Quote: |
Generic Reporter: Mr. Kerry, what is your stance on abortion?
John Kerry: I served in Vietnam!
A different Generic Reporter: What about The War on Terrorism?
John Kerry: I served in Vietnam!
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I think you get the picture.
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And where did I ever say that I preferred Kerry? Actually, I believe the only thing I said on the matter went something like this:| mahkra |
Kerry vs. Bush? Yet another reason I don't vote...
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| liberator |
I myself would prefer someone more conservative than Bush.
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And I would prefer if our president (and politicians in general) weren't so stupid. But with the way our system is set up right now, elections are not won through competence. They're won through popularity.
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| How equal are we? [message #103736] |
Sat, 24 July 2004 00:35 |
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K9Trooper
Messages: 821
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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| SuperFlyingEngi |
| K9Trooper |
Funny when you look at the big picture. It resembles the liberal side of the spectrum. The Liberals want to push for this "Equality" and keep people like me from succeeding while they give rewards to the underachievers, not to much but enough to keep them coming back to them for more. Like a drug dealer. The Conservatives make you earn your keep, giving you a reason to go to school and working hard, making you grow. Without growth you become dependant and that is what the liberals want out of you… Dependant of them.
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Affirmative action isn't about punishing people who work hard, it's about giving those who grow up in un-satisfactory conditions a chance as well. So, because they are born into a bad house, and go to lower quality schools, people who start out better should get everything? It's not about fitting everyone in to the same mold. It's about giving everyone an equal opportunity. They are not the same thing.
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Explain this then. 3 times I was the top of the list for Milwaukee. The first 2 times they revised the list and droped me down to the 90's. Every person put infront of me was either a woman or minority with NO experience or formal training and I hold a degree in Fire Science. 2 out of the 3 times they brought in people that are worthless and are law suits waiting to happen.
How is that not punishing me? Why should I suffer waiting longer for a job when I am more than qualified? Or better yet.... Why must I trust them with my life, when 80% of them are the laziest SOB's to ever walk the earth or are not physicaly capable of doing the job. Yet they have a job because of "Affirmative Action" claims it makes the work place fair. Fair for who? It's not fair to me. It's not fair to the public which depends on getting the best.
R.I.P. TreyD. You will be missed, but not forgotten.
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| How equal are we? [message #103758] |
Sat, 24 July 2004 05:27 |
mahkra
Messages: 219
Registered: April 2004
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| Aircraftkiller |
It's obviously doing something right since we haven't been bumped off by a coup.
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Take a history class and then come back to talk to me, fool. The US of A has existed for less than 250 years, which means nothing. Come back and talk to me in a thousand years. Maybe you'll have a point then... *if* the USA is still around...
Egyptian was under the rule of the pharaohs for thousands of years. And many other civilizations existed for much longer than the US's unimpressive <250 years. Let's not forget about the Greeks, the Romans, or the Ottomans. (Or the Sumers. Or the Babylonians. Or the Assyrians. Or the Mayans. etc....)
Or if you want to limit our discussion to more modern cultures, then we can just look at China and Japan, both of which have been around for thousands of years. Britain, France, Spain, etc. are all older than the US as well.
Compared to other past civilizations, the USA is still an infant. *Maybe* a toddler at best. The fact that it has survived this long is utterly meaningless.
EDIT: Also, ACK, you're forgetting that when the US was created, lots of people wanted George Washington to be King. Not everyone was into the whole democracy thing.
[Updated on: Sat, 24 July 2004 07:35] Report message to a moderator |
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