Command and Conquer: Renegade Official Forums - RDF feed
C&C: Renegade --> Dying since 2003™, resurrected in 2024!
http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/01/11/arizona.funeral.westboro/index.html?hpt=T1 Good for AZ.
Muad Dib15 wrote on Wed, 12 January 2011 23:11 http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/01/11/arizona.funeral.westboro/index.html?hpt=T1 Good for AZ. It's good to know that there's always Kansas to step in and remind Arizona that there are other states whose residents are more retarded than theirs.
Does that ban protests related to the deceased? Or just protests in general?
The former I think. Quote: Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer signed emergency legislation Tuesday that bars protests within 300 feet of a funeral and within an hour from its beginning or end.
looks like toronto did something good for once http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2011/01/12/tucson-funeral-westboro-baptis t.html also here's her talking lol she is crazy http://www.edge.ca/DJsandShows/TheDeanBlundellShow/Audio.aspx
nope.avi wrote on Fri, 14 January 2011 19:18 also here's her talking lol she is crazy http://www.edge.ca/DJsandShows/TheDeanBlundellShow/Audio.aspx There's a special place in Hell reserved for people like this woman. Ha ha! 'Duty.'
Now wait a second, wait a second, wait a second. Hold your horses here for a moment. You're going to have to excuse my ignorance on this matter because it's the first I've heard of it. Let me get this straight; There is a serial shooter on the loose... and these people are not only supporting him, but they are rubbing the death of the victims in the faces of their friends and families? Because they think GOD sent the SHOOTER?! Holy crap, I really wish I could meet this person. I know exactly what I want to say to her after I slap her across the face. If a mythical place like hell does exist, it is in no way sufficient enough for this thing of a person.
Those people are the sickest people you will meet. It should be if they take one step within 300 feet, shoot them on the spot. Those people that do the stuff that church does, doesn't deserve to live.
one man's fanatic is another man's moderate. an islamic jihadist would consider the WBC to be soppy liberals; they match the bin laden types in murderous loathing, but stop short of doing the violence themselves. and a couple of centuries ago the WBC's views were positively mainstream.
God is no longer a symbol of hope and redemption, he is now a scapegoat to use when the law is broken. Murder someone? It's OK, God told me to do it.
R315r4z0r wrote on Sat, 15 January 2011 23:51 God is no longer a symbol of hope and redemption, he is now a scapegoat to use when the law is broken. Murder someone? It's OK, God told me to do it. People who do not know God, and choose to utilize his name in vein as an excuse for actions that are wrong, are ill and dillusional. People like this, should be struck down with lightning and evaporated into fine dust for such an act.
if there is a god and he minds that sort of thing, it's hard to tell, isn't it? if the bible really came from a god, isn't it a rather incompetent revelation? couldn't he have done it so that it couldn't be "used as an excuse for actions that are wrong"? ...and so that it wouldn't result in thousands of different versions of christianity, at least some of whom despise each other and have persecuted each other when they had the power? are you saying the WBC are insincere? doesn't seem that way to me. the WBC's views, despicable as they are, are rooted in the bible. there's much more supporting the WBC theology than there is supporting the 'rapture', for example. but you said they're "ill and delusional", in which case is it just to kill them for it?
Dave Anderson wrote on Wed, 02 February 2011 19:46 R315r4z0r wrote on Sat, 15 January 2011 23:51 God is no longer a symbol of hope and redemption, he is now a scapegoat to use when the law is broken. Murder someone? It's OK, God told me to do it. People who do not know God, and choose to utilize his name in vein as an excuse for actions that are wrong, are ill and dillusional. People like this, should be struck down with lightning and evaporated into fine dust for such an act. Sorry but... umm, are you talking about me or the type of person I was talking about?
The type of person you were talking about - There are those who do things that are not acceptable, who truly believe that what they are doing is right. For example, the individuals who hijacked planes and kamakazi'd our World Trade Centers. While what they did is not right, by any means; these individuals probably honestly and truly believed in what they were doing. There are those who truly believe they speak with God, and are told to do things. These people may seem logical and rational in their decisions and explanations of their actions - whilst others; the type I am moreso referencing, will use it as a scapegoat, and don't actually have any solid foundation for such actions. Quote: if there is a god and he minds that sort of thing, it's hard to tell, isn't it? if the bible really came from a god, isn't it a rather incompetent revelation? The bible did not "come from 'a' God". It is a collection of historical documents and writings written by various individuals across the world during those time periods. Quote: couldn't he have done it so that it couldn't be "used as an excuse for actions that are wrong"? ...and so that it wouldn't result in thousands of different versions of christianity, at least some of whom despise each other and have persecuted each other when they had the power? He could have done many things. I could paint my car Black, White, or Pink. I could make toast or waffles. There is some line people have to accept that they simply do not know the answers things - and on some level an explanation may be beyond the comprehension of the human mind; everything we speak of, discuss, revolves around some physical element, or mechanics that is explained by some other physical element or mechanics. There are some things we just cannot answer, because it is beyond the intelligence of the capacity of the mind. Also, I don't "believe" or "agree" with "religion". To me, it is just a way of categorizing people into groups to say who is right, and who is wrong. I know there is a God, but this is something that cannot be explained to someone. You can only know God by seeking him out yourself, and finding the truth. Whether you do or not, is up to you and your "belief in God" or "knowledge thereof" is only explanable by yourself, through your own personal experiences. Unfortunately you may never know God, yet alone even believe in him. Ultimately, he still loves you whether you acknowledge his existence or not. I also wouldn't think anything less of you just because you do not know or believe in the Lord. It is a relationship that cannot be forced upon any one person, and shouldn't either.
The Bible is the inspired word of the judeo-christian God (or so we were told). If it was merely a "collection of historical documents and writings written by various individuals across the world during those time periods," then there would have been no need of it at all. Only because it was inspired by "God" was why it was known as the Holy Bible. Modernist Christianity is full of reductionism and "God" has become the warm and fuzzy "feel good" force for its modern believers. Once again, this is harly surprising at all as the religion is modifying itself and presenting a presentable image to fit in with the modern challenges it faces. I can be glad I got to deal with the knife's edge of the truer form of the religion and see it for what it is. Here's an article that was written back in August specifically addressing people who follow such reductionist wrong versions of Christianity: http://www.cnn.com/2010/LIVING/08/27/almost.christian/index.html?hpt=T2 It's spot on its first few paragraphs. However, since it was written by a theologist, it is extremely biased. Dave Anderson wrote on Wed, 02 February 2011 23:30 He could have done many things. I could paint my car Black, White, or Pink. I could make toast or waffles. There is some line people have to accept that they simply do not know the answers things - and on some level an explanation may be beyond the comprehension of the human mind; everything we speak of, discuss, revolves around some physical element, or mechanics that is explained by some other physical element or mechanics. There are some things we just cannot answer, because it is beyond the intelligence of the capacity of the mind. This is an "argument from the gaps" where anything unknown to us yet, the gaps, is filled with a god of anyone's choosing. Dave Anderson wrote on Wed, 02 February 2011 23:30 You can only know God by seeking him out yourself, and finding the truth. If they allowed me to do that when I was 8 years old (and I was on the right track to find "god" then), I would have found a "earth nature goddess" to worship and base my life around or probably ended up as a godless jungle dweller (I say this with a positive notion). We would have all found different gods or no gods to worship if we had been let alone. While, that begins to sound irrational to me, it is the perfect explanation of the origins of wide varieties of the religions in our history.
Dave Anderson wrote on Wed, 02 February 2011 23:30 The type of person you were talking about - There are those who do things that are not acceptable, who truly believe that what they are doing is right. For example, the individuals who hijacked planes and kamakazi'd our World Trade Centers. While what they did is not right, by any means; these individuals probably honestly and truly believed in what they were doing. There are those who truly believe they speak with God, and are told to do things. This is all correct apart from "what they did is not right by any means". Any civilised, moral person knows it's wrong. The law says it's wrong. But their religion says it's right. Quote: Quote: if there is a god and he minds that sort of thing, it's hard to tell, isn't it? if the bible really came from a god, isn't it a rather incompetent revelation? The bible did not "come from 'a' God". It is a collection of historical documents and writings written by various individuals across the world during those time periods. i've never been under the impression that any 'god' had anything to do with the compilation of the bible, but that's what we're incessantly told. if you want to say it was just written by men who - when they claimed to know very specific things about a particular God - were lying or crazy or just repeating rumours they'd heard, you might be on to something... Quote: Quote: couldn't he have done it so that it couldn't be "used as an excuse for actions that are wrong"? ...and so that it wouldn't result in thousands of different versions of christianity, at least some of whom despise each other and have persecuted each other when they had the power? He could have done many things. I could paint my car Black, White, or Pink. I could make toast or waffles. There is some line people have to accept that they simply do not know the answers things - and on some level an explanation may be beyond the comprehension of the human mind; everything we speak of, discuss, revolves around some physical element, or mechanics that is explained by some other physical element or mechanics. There are some things we just cannot answer, because it is beyond the intelligence of the capacity of the mind. you're trying to create a mystery where none exists. seems to me that either the prophets who claimed to have received "revelations" from this god were lying or crazy, or if it's true, then the god was incompetent. The dumbest person on this forum could have done a better job of it. Quote: I know there is a God, but this is something that cannot be explained to someone. You can only know God by seeking him out yourself, and finding the truth. Whether you do or not, is up to you and your "belief in God" or "knowledge thereof" is only explanable by yourself, through your own personal experiences. I remember you saying this before; you went on to say that "the entire book of Exodus is scientifically proven". I hope you don't still think that? Quote: Unfortunately you may never know God, yet alone even believe in him. Ultimately, he still loves you whether you acknowledge his existence or not. Like a stalker? Quote: I also wouldn't think anything less of you just because you do not know or believe in the Lord. It is a relationship that cannot be forced upon any one person, and shouldn't either. Do you think hell is a real thing?
Quote: The Bible is the inspired word of the judeo-christian God (or so we were told). If it was merely a "collection of historical documents and writings written by various individuals across the world during those time periods," then there would have been no need of it at all. Only because it was inspired by "God" was why it was known as the Holy Bible. Yes, it's true that each book is God inspired, but that doesn't change the fact that they are still historical writings by individuals during those time periods. At any rate, I am not here to debate a technicality on ones defining interpretation of the definition of the Bible. Quote: This is all correct apart from "what they did is not right by any means". Any civilised, moral person knows it's wrong. The law says it's wrong. But their religion says it's right. I don't speak for anyone, except for myself. "By any means", is by my standards and principles. I agree with you that in their religion, what they did would be "right" in this context; no disagreement. Quote: i've never been under the impression that any 'god' had anything to do with the compilation of the bible, but that's what we're incessantly told. if you want to say it was just written by men who - when they claimed to know very specific things about a particular God - were lying or crazy or just repeating rumours they'd heard, you might be on to something... Any 'god' does not have a relation or correlation to the Bible by default. Again, I agree. People take the word 'god' and automatically tie it to the Bible, but fail to realize that there is more than one context. There are even scriptures in the Bible (I cannot reference off-hand), that there are multiple Gods, but that we should only worship our one true God. Again, a lot of this is up for interpretation and understanding. If you do not believe in God pretty much all of this means absolutely nothing to you. It's probably a fairy tail in your mind. However, for those with strong faith they do study and find understanding that makes the most sense to them. I most certainly do not call the writings of the Bible to be fallacy, nor the people who wrote them to be crazy, ill, dillusional, or other; I didn't know those individuals nor did I live in that time period to understand anything about them, other than they existed. Quote: you're trying to create a mystery where none exists. seems to me that either the prophets who claimed to have received "revelations" from this god were lying or crazy, or if it's true, then the god was incompetent. The dumbest person on this forum could have done a better job of it. Really hoped with as intelligent as you seem on a forum board you would have come up with a better explanation of what you mean, other than, again.., referencing the people as "crazy or lying". Don't really know what to say to you here.. Quote: I remember you saying this before; you went on to say that "the entire book of Exodus is scientifically proven". I hope you don't still think that? Big statement, right? The entire book being scientifcally proven? A poor remark on my part, let me divulge. Many events in the book of Exodus, and many things that were referenced such as the battle, cherriot's, location/etc, were found by scientists, and many things that were stated in the book were to be confirmed to exist, or confirmed to have happened. It's a big book, and it is a poor remark to say the entire thing is scientifcally proven, because in my mind I was thinking only of the physical things they were able to resolve scientifcally. However, this does not account for the rest of many of hundreds of words in that book. Quote: Like a stalker? Again, don't really have anything to say here.. Quote: Do you think hell is a real thing? I think that people have distorted the idea of heaven and hell to the point where they are taught to be physical realms that exist, or actual places. Do I think there is a heaven and hell? Possibly. I accept the possibility that they may be actual realms, physically or maybe even spiritually. Spiritually, it would be something that I accept, as of now I don't fully understand. To me at this point they are abstractions representing references from the Bible (it talks about heaven and hell). The thing of it is, though, the bible talks about 'heaven', 'heaven(s)', hell, etc. in many different contexsts. I think most people pick a definition that makes the most sense to them and flow with it, and that the most common one seems to come acrss that they are physical or spiritual realms where you would 'go' (verb) after you cease existence, based upon either your actions in life, or whether or not you are saved. I also believe, Spoony, that just because you don't believe in God or worship God, that the lord will automatically deam you to "hell". He loves each and everyone, who are we to say what he would actually decide, when ultimately he is the final say in the matter. Again, I am speaking through my own relationship with God, which I suppose you would call "belief". Ultimately Spoony, I know you ask a lot of questions and this entire spectrum of the subject is large in your mind quite often (reflects in many of your posts). Quote: If they allowed me to do that when I was 8 years old (and I was on the right track to find "god" then), I would have found a "earth nature goddess" to worship and base my life around or probably ended up as a godless jungle dweller (I say this with a positive notion). We would have all found different gods or no gods to worship if we had been let alone. While, that begins to sound irrational to me, it is the perfect explanation of the origins of wide varieties of the religions in our history. I really couldn't help to chuckle here.. What I said is a little abstract. To me, it's a bit of direction to someone who is searching or trying to educate themselves, or even try to understand "God". You cannot believe in something truly, with full faith just by reading it from a book. You cannot be forced upon yourself, to believe in any God, 'a' God, or be forced to agree that all of this information is true. It is a decision that each individual has to make for themselves. It is something that is decided over time, through experience, that a lot of people never actually find the answer for themselves even by the time they have lived and died. Quote: While, that begins to sound irrational to me, it is the perfect explanation of the origins of wide varieties of the religions in our history. Correct, and ultimately like I stated, this is strictly why I am opposed to classifying myself as any 'one' 'religion''. Simply it is a category. "Our religion is right, and yours is wrong". The majority of the Bible is so abstract in areas, and alot of it is described by things based upon their time period, which people in this state and age have a hard time relating to; to find that same understanding or explanation. I really hope the best to you Spoony, whatever it is you learn about this subject in life. I hope you do come to know God, if you do not I don't think any less of you. However, the internet is really not a good place for this. Talking to people in person is much more critical - set the internet ego aside and the urge to be this macho intelligent egostically individual on an internet forum who types like a God (not calling you out on this, making an example of average discussions amungst internet-goers), and actually have a heart to heart discussion with various people. Ask others then just who you are around all the time to. Discuss, ponder, think, search. If you don't care about any of this, that works too; no hard feelings.
Dave Anderson wrote on Thu, 03 February 2011 19:54 Yes, it's true that each book is God inspired, but that doesn't change the fact that they are still historical writings by individuals during those time periods. At any rate, I am not here to debate a technicality on ones defining interpretation of the definition of the Bible. I too am not here to "debate a technicality on ones defining interpretation of the definition of the Bible." Merely making a very simple note on what I have been told all along as to what the bible is. Jeez. If the book is "God inspired" nothing else matters; you didn't even have to mention that they were historical writings by people living in those time periods. It becomes the word of god; no questions asked. I wonder why this exercise was necessary. Dave Anderson wrote on Thu, 03 February 2011 19:54 If you do not believe in God pretty much all of this means absolutely nothing to you. It's probably a fairy tail in your mind. However, for those with strong faith they do study and find understanding that makes the most sense to them. I have had plenty of opportunity to meet such people of "strong faith they do study and find understanding that makes the most sense to them." Some are oridinary believers. But more appropriately, they are the so-called "professionals" in the field of "theology." After I announced my atheism to my family in May 2009, they feared for my soul and using their vast network of church connections, were able to invite and bring in the most "accomplished" theologians to try to save my soul. They took time off their busy schedules to come to the home and try to "reason" with me. You seem to imply that these seminary-educated fools (I am sincerely sorry) know something the rest of us don't. You may even think of them as some sort of elite cream that understand god and the universe better than the common believer. I am sorry to disappoint but I was amazed to see that such people, the ones claimed to have "strong faith that study the bible" turned out to be the most ultimately dim-witted naive individuals I have ever had the dishonour of meeting in my life. So short-sighted in their arguments, chock full of fallacies, embarrassing their own selves. Why would you put so much trust in such folks? Have you actually met such people who "have strong faith and study the bible" as I have? They are full of dogmatic fundamentalism with a air of elitism; very dangerous elements that stand against and oppress human intellect and curiosity; the very foundations of our future. Dave Anderson wrote on Thu, 03 February 2011 19:54 I really couldn't help to chuckle here.. What I said is a little abstract. To me, it's a bit of direction to someone who is searching or trying to educate themselves, or even try to understand "God". You cannot believe in something truly, with full faith just by reading it from a book. You cannot be forced upon yourself, to believe in any God, 'a' God, or be forced to agree that all of this information is true. It is a decision that each individual has to make for themselves. You seem to misunderstand. If one needs "a bit of direction" to find your god, then your god doesn't deserve to be found, let alone worshipped. I hope my example wasn't that hard to understand; left all alone in the jungle and growing up by yourself, would you have, all by yourself, come to worship the god you worship now and refer to as "Lord" with the gender of a male? Please tell me this. You had influence, rumours, parental teaching, church indoctrination, geographical factors (such as being American born in a predominantly Christian nation), etc etc. All these factors influenced you in your decision as they do to people of different faiths. Take away such factors and tell me if one can truly find YOUR Lord? Are you sure you have found the the right god? That you have found the right answer in your lifetime? I would hope now my example with finding a nature goddess would start to make sense. Dave Anderson wrote on Thu, 03 February 2011 19:54 It is a decision that each individual has to make for themselves. It is something that is decided over time, through experience, that a lot of people never actually find the answer for themselves even by the time they have lived and died. Time and experience have NOTHING to do with finding god whatsoever. Hard evidence of their existence and their handiwork is needed. 2 nights ago I was in a massive head-on collision with another car while with my sister. Did the experience make me find god? A emotionally-weak individual may have found "God", in the immediate emotional, shocked, and stunned post-accident moments, through that "experience." Seconds after impact and checking my sister, I immmediately and instantly understood how lucky I was to be able to survive unscathed...and that at within the same hour of my crash, thousands of innocent poor humans just like myself and my sister DIED in traffic accidents across the entire world. That's the truth. The cold-hard truth. We are either lucky or unlucky. Despite the grandest of our delusions, random lotteries our lives are. Ultimately, if we have any hope to find a deity, we need evidence for such a deity of acting in not just our lives, but in the lives of EVERY human being. Above all, we need evidence for the existence for such a god. We need the evidence for their alleged handiwork. There is more reason to suggest we are all alone in it for ourselves than to suggest a benevolent diety is watching over us. We have to save ourselves; from ourselves and from the cold harsh universe we live in, and whatever else it hides. We can sink into delusion of a diety watching over us but alas; while I lie tonight on my cot on the floor and type this response to you on my laptop in a warm comfortable room, my heart feels for the woman in Africa that is being gang-raped at this very moment or the young child in some hospital in the American heartland that would have died of cancer tonight surrounded by his teary mom and dad by the time the sun arrives at my window sill tommorrow morning. life. chance. I maybe next; nobody knows. Will I be alive next Friday? Fate strikes at will. I would admit my vulnerability than feel secure in a delusion that won't help me when cold harsh reality strikes. by all means, let the lord or god or gods or goddesses of humanity actually do something other than play "have faith" games of hide-and-seek and actually show their handiwork in our lives. Dave Anderson wrote on Thu, 03 February 2011 19:54 Ask others then just who you are around all the time to. Discuss, ponder, think, search. Why do you think atheists and agnostics are growing in numbers! More people are doing what you suggest above. I think this is a typical elitist advice being given to a atheist asking the atheist to leave his immediate company of friends (assumed to be atheist themselves) and go talk to people of different beliefs to gain a different prespective. Again, this is a double standard as no Christian parent will ever give this advice to his children. Instead, they will try to keep them FROM asking others who do have different beliefs in the fear they may get influcened by them. And that's exactly what happened to me. I knew people were different than me outside my immediate family and so I reached out to them specifically. Growing up in my Christian environment of a home and all the Christian family-members, I had so much opportunity to meet others and I used such opportunities to ask the questions to people of different faiths. I pondered, thought, searched and discussed the issue more then anyone else in my entire family with people of different prespectives. And only then I realized my initial position was untenable, wrong, and became atheist. Figure! Dave Anderson wrote on Thu, 03 February 2011 19:54 However, the internet is really not a good place for this. Talking to people in person is much more critical - set the internet ego aside and the urge to be this macho intelligent egostically individual on an internet forum who types like a God (not calling you out on this, making an example of average discussions amungst internet-goers), and actually have a heart to heart discussion with various people. Atheism is misunderstood all the time by believers. Atheists don't have the answers nor do they have any obligation to provide any. But when they hear someone come along with the "answer" passing it off as "truth" then there is bound to be a endless stream of scrutiny. The greater the claims, the more extraordinary the scrutiny. I hope you make a distinction of when a person is being egoistic and when he is truly asking honest questions. Asking critical questions and not conforming to the hive-minded crowd doesn't make a person "macho intelligent egostically individual." Come on... If I remember, back in 2008, I resented Spoony not because he was being offensive and egoistic, but because he was asking incisive questions that tore away at the foundations of my faith. Dave Anderson wrote on Thu, 03 February 2011 19:54 Correct, and ultimately like I stated, this is strictly why I am opposed to classifying myself as any 'one' 'religion''. Simply it is a category. "Our religion is right, and yours is wrong". I am not so sure considering John 3:16...seems to be something more than just a mere category.
Everything you wrote is a result of your experience in life, and nobody elses. Thus, leading you to believe what you do, and set the foundation for the principles by which you live. Point being, belief is through experience; your experience. No one is going to change what you have been through, how you feel, or what you believe except for yourself. No one can tell you God exists and make you believe it. Not a single Christian, or servant of God can sit down and say "this is why I believe in God and why you should reconsider your beliefs". That is utter crap. These people may not be the smartest people in the world, but through their own experiences in life they have come to know God, and form that relationship. Someone's relationship with God, is not something that can be explained to anyone else. They understand it because it is their own. My only advice to you is do not condemn a person for believing what they do. Understand that they believe what they do as a result of their own life experiences. Just as they do not understand what you have been through in life, you don't understand their experiences either. Being told an experience is one thing, but being that person and living it is inexcusably different. It is not elitism for providing advice to seek out knowledge from other people then who you are around. Any intelligent being knows that if you are honest and legitimate about learning something, that you would truly utilize all of your resources, and take in information from every input you can find, up until the point where you can make a self educated decision for yourself. Many of my close friends are true athiests, and I couldn't name a friend of mine who actually has a relationship with God as an active part of their life. I am not here to pick apart everything you say to disprove it, or insult your intelligence and/or beliefs. I can tell you all day long that God exists, but that does not accomplish anything. Spoony reminds me of a few of my close friends that are indeed atheists; they are very intelligent and ask a lot of questions, they discuss the matter at hand. They do not however do the latter, pick apart what you say claim you are wrong or do not understand because thier life experiences are different from mine; nor do we judge one another based on what influences we have had, or visa versa. I am not here to argue or pursuade you into thinking their is a God, but my opinion is simply that a subject like this, a belief that essentially effects your entire life, is not something that is decided over night and set in stone. My opinion is that through your life experiences your own opinions may or may not change. You will mature, mentally/psychologically, and you may reconsider things, or you may change over time. Your beliefs will probably change. Maybe alot, maybe a little. What you believe right now and in the future is for you to decide. There's no God? That's your belief? Good for you, I'm happy you feel that way. There's nothing I can do to change that and its not my place to say one way or the other. However, a few years from now when something happens in your life that effects you on such a massive level that causes you to rethink things like this, you will probably look back and see that it has taken all that time, and through that experience, to get to that point in your life where your beliefs are more mature then they are now. I am not saying something is going to happen all of a sudden where you feel there is a God, but I am saying things will happen in life that will either change what you believe or build upon what you already belief; again, your beliefs will mature. Opinions are opinions. Advice is advice. An online forum post is just a subtext. Take it, leave it, do what you want with it. Don't take anything personal.
Dave Anderson wrote on Thu, 03 February 2011 19:54 Quote: you're trying to create a mystery where none exists. seems to me that either the prophets who claimed to have received "revelations" from this god were lying or crazy, or if it's true, then the god was incompetent. The dumbest person on this forum could have done a better job of it. Really hoped with as intelligent as you seem on a forum board you would have come up with a better explanation of what you mean, other than, again.., referencing the people as "crazy or lying". Don't really know what to say to you here.. sorry to hear that. Quote: Quote: I remember you saying this before; you went on to say that "the entire book of Exodus is scientifically proven". I hope you don't still think that? Big statement, right? The entire book being scientifcally proven? A poor remark on my part, let me divulge. Many events in the book of Exodus, and many things that were referenced such as the battle, cherriot's, location/etc, were found by scientists, and many things that were stated in the book were to be confirmed to exist, or confirmed to have happened. It's a big book, and it is a poor remark to say the entire thing is scientifcally proven, because in my mind I was thinking only of the physical things they were able to resolve scientifcally. However, this does not account for the rest of many of hundreds of words in that book. Better. Suppose in a thousand years' time, after a nuclear war or something and the collapse of big chunks of our current civilisation, people find a Spiderman comic. This superhero who supposedly lives in New York. Then they find the rubble of New York. Finding out that New York was real doesn't prove much about the existence of Spiderman, does it? Quote: Quote: Like a stalker? Again, don't really have anything to say here.. yeah. it's one of those comments that probably sounds better in the mind of the theist saying it than the atheist hearing it. it's like when a christian says god is always watching over us, a remarkably similar phrase to something in 1984. they probably think it's a comforting thing to say. Quote: Quote: Do you think hell is a real thing? I think that people have distorted the idea of heaven and hell to the point where they are taught to be physical realms that exist, or actual places. Do I think there is a heaven and hell? Possibly. I accept the possibility that they may be actual realms, physically or maybe even spiritually. Spiritually, it would be something that I accept, as of now I don't fully understand. To me at this point they are abstractions representing references from the Bible (it talks about heaven and hell). The thing of it is, though, the bible talks about 'heaven', 'heaven(s)', hell, etc. in many different contexsts. I think most people pick a definition that makes the most sense to them and flow with it, and that the most common one seems to come acrss that they are physical or spiritual realms where you would 'go' (verb) after you cease existence, based upon either your actions in life, or whether or not you are saved. fine. then we're faced with the very large number of people who are convinced that hell is a real place of horrific torture, and that you'll go there forever just for not being the right religion, and who spout this poisonous bullshit not just to adults like myself who can logically defend themself but to children. Quote: I also believe, Spoony, that just because you don't believe in God or worship God, that the lord will automatically deam you to "hell". should there be another "don't" in this sentence? Quote: He loves each and everyone, who are we to say what he would actually decide, when ultimately he is the final say in the matter. Really, everyone? Bin Laden, for example? Quote: I really couldn't help to chuckle here.. What I said is a little abstract. To me, it's a bit of direction to someone who is searching or trying to educate themselves, or even try to understand "God". You cannot believe in something truly, with full faith just by reading it from a book. You cannot be forced upon yourself, to believe in any God, 'a' God, or be forced to agree that all of this information is true. It is a decision that each individual has to make for themselves. It is something that is decided over time, through experience, that a lot of people never actually find the answer for themselves even by the time they have lived and died. I'd be interested in hearing your opinion to my thread entitled "A psychological question: 'Choose to believe", here in Heated Discussions. I ask whether belief is a decision at all. Quote: I really hope the best to you Spoony, whatever it is you learn about this subject in life. I hope you do come to know God, if you do not I don't think any less of you. However, the internet is really not a good place for this. Talking to people in person is much more critical - set the internet ego aside and the urge to be this macho intelligent egostically individual on an internet forum who types like a God (not calling you out on this, making an example of average discussions amungst internet-goers), and actually have a heart to heart discussion with various people. Ask others then just who you are around all the time to. Discuss, ponder, think, search. If you don't care about any of this, that works too; no hard feelings. I assure you that everything I've said about religion - except perhaps for the occasional joke - has been sincere, and rooted in a desire for skepticism, the continued pursuit of knowledge, and the struggle for human rights (against religious barbarism more often than not). i certainly don't think bashing religion makes you intelligent; indeed i've said before that you don't need to be particularly bright to see what a crock of shit SOME religious claims are. and as for the internet not being a good place for this, it's actually the best place for it because there's the least amount of censorship. blasphemy laws and so on. we have those in Europe, they're a relic from a time when the christian churches had everything their own way, and they really could and did force us to believe their bullshit. you wanna see how well that worked out, just look at pakistan today. Quote: Everything you wrote is a result of your experience in life, and nobody elses. Thus, leading you to believe what you do, and set the foundation for the principles by which you live. Point being, belief is through experience; your experience. No one is going to change what you have been through, how you feel, or what you believe except for yourself. No one can tell you God exists and make you believe it. Not a single Christian, or servant of God can sit down and say "this is why I believe in God and why you should reconsider your beliefs". That is utter crap. These people may not be the smartest people in the world, but through their own experiences in life they have come to know God, and form that relationship. Someone's relationship with God, is not something that can be explained to anyone else. They understand it because it is their own. Of course, if you swap "God" for "Thor" or "aliens", you don't need to change another word (except "Christian") Quote: My only advice to you is do not condemn a person for believing what they do. Understand that they believe what they do as a result of their own life experiences. Just as they do not understand what you have been through in life, you don't understand their experiences either. Being told an experience is one thing, but being that person and living it is inexcusably different. i hope you don't think i'm "condemning" a person just for what they think; i've argued against thoughtcrime many times, especially given the fact many religions thrive upon the concept. Quote: I am not here to pick apart everything you say to disprove it, or insult your intelligence and/or beliefs. You'd be very welcome to. Quote: I am not here to argue or pursuade you into thinking their is a God, but my opinion is simply that a subject like this, a belief that essentially effects your entire life, is not something that is decided over night and set in stone. My opinion is that through your life experiences your own opinions may or may not change. You will mature, mentally/psychologically, and you may reconsider things, or you may change over time. Your beliefs will probably change. Maybe alot, maybe a little. this is all fine, and it's the enemy of organised religion... that'll tell you "here's the truth, you must believe it, you'll be punished if you don't". Quote: What you believe right now and in the future is for you to decide. There's no God? That's your belief? Good for you, I'm happy you feel that way. I think you might actually struggle to find a post from me where I assert the non-existence of any particular god. Quote: There's nothing I can do to change that and its not my place to say one way or the other. However, a few years from now when something happens in your life that effects you on such a massive level that causes you to rethink things like this, you will probably look back and see that it has taken all that time, and through that experience, to get to that point in your life where your beliefs are more mature then they are now. I am not saying something is going to happen all of a sudden where you feel there is a God, but I am saying things will happen in life that will either change what you believe or build upon what you already belief; again, your beliefs will mature. and if something really does happen to make me think that there's a particular God, then it's always worth remembering Hume's advice. i.e. am i really seeing a miracle here, a suspension of the natural order, or am I mistaken? if everyone involved in writing the bible asked themselves that, it might be a very different book.
Quote: Better. Suppose in a thousand years' time, after a nuclear war or something and the collapse of big chunks of our current civilisation, people find a Spiderman comic. This superhero who supposedly lives in New York. Then they find the rubble of New York. Finding out that New York was real doesn't prove much about the existence of Spiderman, does it? It most certainly does not. In my scenario they were able to confirm the initial event took place; specifics may or may not be confirmed to have existed or be factual, as in your example they could at least confirm some catastrophic event happened to New York and confirm the time frame and event itself occurred. Quote: fine. then we're faced with the very large number of people who are convinced that hell is a real place of horrific torture, and that you'll go there forever just for not being the right religion, and who spout this poisonous bullshit not just to adults like myself who can logically defend themself but to children. I most certainly agree. While I accept the fact that Heaven and Hell could be actual 'things' or 'places', I also accept the fact that I simply do not know. They might not exist at all, may be referencing something else we do not understand, or even something we do not yet know about. However, people who act as if they know that Hell is most certainly a physical or spiritual realm where we go when we die; treat this as fact, are blind to the reality that they may be completely wrong. The one thing I absolutely hate is something being taught as fact, when in all actuality we really don't know the answer yet. Quote: Really, everyone? Bin Laden, for example? Absolutely. Even myself for example, looking at this 'bmr_71' who comes across completely idiotic, immature, and someone who probably cannot hold an adult conversation with someone with an intelligence factor or IQ above 10, I can still say as a person I love him. I often find myself observing others sometimes, thinking that some of these people are just awful. Some people are evil at heart, some people just don't care. I understand though that there is always a reason for such behaviors, in which I may not know the answer to. I respect all people as human beings. With all that said, it most certainly does not mean like, or can stand them in any way. Maybe God is the same way, I don't know. I joke about it with my father sometimes, how God might think some of his own creations are just dorks, or awful, or how he actually regards them. I don't know, and I wouldn't dare ever say what he actually thinks of people, but it's an interesting thought to ponder. Quote: I'd be interested in hearing your opinion to my thread entitled "A psychological question: 'Choose to believe", here in Heated Discussions. I ask whether belief is a decision at all. Well, this is not something I am really prepared to answer. The question in itself is also a very large subject (also touchy), and I find myself possibly not even aware of if I have an answer for myself on what I think of that. I will have to give it some thought, because I've never really thought about that before in that context. Quote: I assure you that everything I've said about religion - except perhaps for the occasional joke - has been sincere, and rooted in a desire for skepticism, the continued pursuit of knowledge, and the struggle for human rights (against religious barbarism more often than not). i certainly don't think bashing religion makes you intelligent; indeed i've said before that you don't need to be particularly bright to see what a crock of shit SOME religious claims are. and as for the internet not being a good place for this, it's actually the best place for it because there's the least amount of censorship. blasphemy laws and so on. we have those in Europe, they're a relic from a time when the christian churches had everything their own way, and they really could and did force us to believe their bullshit. you wanna see how well that worked out, just look at pakistan today. I know you're sincere; it's pretty obvious in your posts. I suppose if you are good at filtering the idiots on the internet, then you are pretty okay in saying that its not censored. I guess you could also say that a lot of people, in person, get easily offended when you challenge or dicuss their religion in a manner other then how they see fit. Which so you know, I completely disagree with. I think it is insecurity when people are not comfortable in such a position to the point where they either won't discuss the matter, or will just claim they are correct; and that's that. Quote: Of course, if you swap "God" for "Thor" or "aliens", you don't need to change another word (except "Christian") Agreed, because; If you take an individual who claims he was obducted by Aliens, well, to him that is as true as the Sky being blue during the day. He could be crazy, he could be sane. He could have actually experienced something out of the ordinary, and maybe his only explanation is 'Aliens'. It's hard to say because all we can do as people other than himself, is go by what he says. We didn't experience it; although that creates skepticism, and disbelief and a label slapped on him. Quote: I hope you don't think i'm "condemning" a person just for what they think; i've argued against thoughtcrime many times, especially given the fact many religions thrive upon the concept. Condeming probably was not the appropriate word, and that reply was sort of more targeted at Starbuzz's reply; I wasn't very clear. I don't feel that you condemn people, you are very challenging in your arguments however, which some people probably do feel the opposite. That however, is not how I feel. Quote: I think you might actually struggle to find a post from me where I assert the non-existence of any particular god. Curious here. Do you accept even the possiblity that there may be a God? Maybe even in the context of this discussion, do you accept the possibility that there may be an Intelligent Designer on some level of existance? If you don't mind me asking, what do you actually believe? Quote: and if something really does happen to make me think that there's a particular God, then it's always worth remembering Hume's advice. i.e. am i really seeing a miracle here, a suspension of the natural order, or am I mistaken? if everyone involved in writing the bible asked themselves that, it might be a very different book. I do agree here. If something life changing were to happen these are logical questions to ask yourself. If you didn't, Spiderman would be your God and you would believe everything that's thrown at you. You do have to protect your beliefs with questions and knowledge. It's like people who have found a 'Jesus shaped Cheetoh'. My explanation: C'mon.. billions upon billions of Cheetoh's are processed each day, one is bound to look like 'something'. This is not something I would claim to be an 'act of God' or a 'sign'.
Dave Anderson wrote on Fri, 04 February 2011 00:44 Everything you wrote is a result of your experience in life, and nobody elses. Thus, leading you to believe what you do, and set the foundation for the principles by which you live. Your entire post is based on the wrong premise that atheism is a belief system. You can't make a entirely wrong statement such as above when you yourself don't seem to understand what atheism is or what the concept of reason is. It doesn't work this way. Regardless of what we think, the truth will be constant. Is the earth flat? We now know it is not. Is the earth the centre of the universe? We now know it is not. See, the answers will always be out there but our attitude to the question is crucial to us finding them. With a theistic attitude of upholding dogma, the answers will NEVER be found. How many times have you repeated the same thing over and over again? I have trimmed the possibilities according to probability, historical record, and fostered a healthy attitude that is ready to include more evidence as it becomes available. I came to the conclusion I hold now thru intellectual curiosity; a need to find a better explanation because the old one (yours) didn't make any. i.e, initial questioning and doubts arose not due to life experience, but thru seeing the fallacy presented to me as fact. Your statement doesn't hold. I was less than 10 years old when I began doubting the christian concept of the soul after observing birds, for example. Sure did take a lot of life experience to ask that question at such an early age, huh? My point is, I came to my position using reasoning whereas, a believer would be more motivated by the "struggles" in their lives and the need for some sort of emotional anchor to hang on to. The belief systems essentially simplify AND personify the unknowns of the universe into a male-gendered "God" with a capital G also referred to as "Lord" and provides a cosmic friend-in-need during times of doubt and fear. I am pretty sure without the "Lord" many will feel empty and vulnerable in life and I would stand by them though never accept that as the truth. Dave Anderson wrote on Fri, 04 February 2011 00:44 Point being, belief is through experience; your experience. Absolutely. But how is this applicable to atheism? Christianity heavily relies on the emotional rollercoasters of its believers' minds to keep them in-check praying. I merely point this out for the lie it is. The important question is, are these factual? Having good warm-fuzzy feelings inside and praying and singing "Better is one day in your courts!" is absolutely fine. But it is entirely another matter to press this as fact when it is quiet clearly not. Dave Anderson wrote on Fri, 04 February 2011 00:44 No one is going to change what you have been through, how you feel, or what you believe except for yourself. Not entirely true. Atheism isn't a belief system and it doesn't work as such. It is a logical evidence-based system of reasoning and critical thinking that uses all available information while pressing for the need for new information and evidence. A believer's mind doesn't at all work the same way (as a former believer, I can vouch for it dead accurately): old validated information doesn't matter, new information and evidence doesn't matter. Rather, it is a dogma-based constant; a mental "comfort zone" that OUTRIGHT REJECTS old, new, and ANY information contrary to the dogmatic teachings it was indoctrinated with in the first place. So you need to apply what you said to yourself. I stand absolutely ready to change my view pending new evidence and reasoning; you probably won't. Dave Anderson wrote on Fri, 04 February 2011 00:44 No one can tell you God exists and make you believe it. This statement works only if the "you" in the sentence is a well educated adult that can reason back. It seems to work easily on everyone else; most effectively (and sadly) on children. In fact, that's the best time to indoctrinate the mind; when it is young and unable to defend itself. Another group are adults that are particularly vulnerable due to issues in life as well as those who don't have the intellectual bargaining power to resist a soft-speaking but ultimately delusional pastor or believer. This is how the religion has kept itself alive. Not because its followers "find" their god but because of indoctrination and the fraudulent abuse of human psychology. You may resent me saying this but I have seen EVERY shade of this ghastly religion known as Christianity. I still listen to them just incase I hear something new; so far it is the same recycled arguments. Though, I must thank you for offering it from a fresh prespective. Dave Anderson wrote on Fri, 04 February 2011 00:44 My only advice to you is do not condemn a person for believing what they do. How is defending a position equate to "condemning" others for their beliefs? A degree of resentment is to be expected by a believer if such beliefs collectively and negatively affect those who do not share similar beliefs; whether it be the 9/11 hijackers or the advocates for DADT. I choose to reply to theists all the time NOT because I want to put them/you down (ridiculous) but to offer a valid counterpoint that exists to your "truth." You have something to sell. I am not obligated to buy it. But I can tell you why I am not interested in buying it as I do all the time. In all universal honesty, this analogy is absolutely accurate. You seem to think I am doing so because I either blindly "hate" the seller or the product. Please see past this as it is not true. Dave Anderson wrote on Fri, 04 February 2011 00:44 Not a single Christian, or servant of God can sit down and say "this is why I believe in God and why you should reconsider your beliefs". That is utter crap. Absolutely. Those people can use your advice. Best of all, my recommendation is they FIRST take a course in comparative religions. Dave Anderson wrote on Fri, 04 February 2011 00:44 These people may not be the smartest people in the world, but through their own experiences in life they have come to know God, and form that relationship. Someone's relationship with God, is not something that can be explained to anyone else. They understand it because it is their own. Dave Anderson wrote on Fri, 04 February 2011 00:44 Understand that they believe what they do as a result of their own life experiences. Just as they do not understand what you have been through in life, you don't understand their experiences either. Being told an experience is one thing, but being that person and living it is inexcusably different. You can use this argument effectively against someone who has been brought up in a non-religious or non-christian environment. AND so I am pleased to inform that it is not applicable to me. I had known, savoured, and lived as a christian for the good majority of my life in a christian household. A good 22 years. I know what it's like to be a believer. The ONLY THING I happened to have done was to to actually seek answers to my doubts. Also, this is the plain old argument from seniority. I hear this tripe from the older people in my family all the time including evangelists. "We are older, we have seen the work of god all our long lives, we KNOW about god's work in our lives, you will too." If they had an ounch of reasoning capacity, they would see how short-sighted they have been all their lives. This is what belief systems do; break down a person's logical thinking capacity so they run on emotions. I can't blame them. Young and old, all believers are like this man Dawkins counters here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKGtcVoBhBQ&feature=player_embedded I feel bad for him and won't mind having a chat with him or being his friend. I would give the same response though much nicely as he is absolutely honest and sincere but sadly he is wrong. I have no problem with how they have chose to live their lives. I am truly happy they were able to find solace in their dieties, dogmas, and ideals that kept them going through life. I am glad that it kept them alive, happy, and content. But if they want to sell that to me, the onus is on them to do a good job with the marketing. A product that is defective in design won't sell. That should explain why despite the most hideous threat of punishment in human history (hell), the religion is failing. Dave Anderson wrote on Fri, 04 February 2011 00:44 It is not elitism for providing advice to seek out knowledge from other people then who you are around. You are giving this advice to someone who has already used it to its full potential. I have already mentioned how this is exactly what I DID. I reached out to other people other than my immediate family who are Christians themselves and I found their dogmatic views extremely unsatisfying. I ended up atheist. To take this advice again is to go back to these very same delusional folks and get their opinion; and I think you can see how counterproductive it would be. It doesn't help me that you repeat the same views they hold. Dave Anderson wrote on Fri, 04 February 2011 00:44 Any intelligent being knows that if you are honest and legitimate about learning something, that you would truly utilize all of your resources, and take in information from every input you can find, up until the point where you can make a self educated decision for yourself. Again, you have to see my reply to the previous quote. I realized this a long long time ago, friend. If I had not done so, I would never have left christianity. Tell me in all honesty, have you ever considered going to a devout Hindu and asked for advice? I hope you don't chuckle this time! I have learned some incredibly valuable lessons regarding compassion to lifeforms and animal cruelty; lessons christianity does not teach. I have also kept a much more open mind on afterlife mysteries (if there are any) thanks to listening to what agnostics have to say. In other words, you will be hardpressed to find a more open mind to give new information to. I am desperately hungry for it. What I can't do is take something that is clearly illogical and have "faith" that it is true. Dave Anderson wrote on Fri, 04 February 2011 00:44 I am not here to pick apart everything you say to disprove it, or insult your intelligence and/or beliefs. I am merely defending my position and saying why exactly I don't share the same views as yourself. Or more importantly, why I found my previous views difficult to advocate for. If this comes off to you or anyone as "me on a high horse condemning others" for what they believe in, the least I can do is sincerely say that's not what I am doing. Dave Anderson wrote on Fri, 04 February 2011 00:44 I can tell you all day long that God exists, but that does not accomplish anything. For thousands of years, religions have thrived by using the concept of faith, the belief in something where there is no evidence for it. It was only a matter of time before a newer standard was going to develop to try to sort the mess we have now; why is a evidence-based approach sound so bad to theists? Dave Anderson wrote on Fri, 04 February 2011 00:44 Spoony reminds me of a few of my close friends that are indeed atheists; they are very intelligent and ask a lot of questions, they discuss the matter at hand. They do not however do the latter, pick apart what you say claim you are wrong or do not understand because thier life experiences are different from mine; nor do we judge one another based on what influences we have had, or visa versa. Obvisouly there's a difference between real life (where people will put on their best face and even lie to your eyes). You can expect more honesty in an internet debate made to specifically debate the issue. I am sure you will hear the same verbal accounts if the debate was in-person. Dave Anderson wrote on Fri, 04 February 2011 00:44 I am not here to argue or pursuade you into thinking their is a God, but my opinion is simply that a subject like this, a belief that essentially effects your entire life, is not something that is decided over night and set in stone. For a believer, yes. It's a emotional rollercoaster life journey that has nothing to do with intellect or reason but pure emotions, convictions, and faith; the immediate answers. But that's not how a "lack of belief" works. Most atheists have been born into religious families and have made a educated and well-reasoned conclusion that their religion is fradulent. It took me three years to come to the conclusion. Life experience won't matter to change me mind; new evidence and information will. The sooner the better; if not, it still makes no difference as I would have lived my life fully eitherway. Though I would hope future generations will uncover more. Dave Anderson wrote on Fri, 04 February 2011 00:44 My opinion is that through your life experiences your own opinions may or may not change. You will mature, mentally/psychologically, and you may reconsider things, or you may change over time. Your beliefs will probably change. Maybe alot, maybe a little. What you believe right now and in the future is for you to decide. Once again as in many times, atheism is not a belief. The reasoning mind doesn't work the same way as the delusion mind. Plus this bit of advice sounds incredibly similar to what that disgraced Ted Haggard arrogantly said to Dawkins; please watch from 4 mins onwards: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZC1cMyA-Hhw Not replying to anyone in particular, theists love to say this kind of advice because first, it gives them breathing space and buys them more time while deflecting the entire topic at hand. While they ignore religious history, deny ancient history, and selectively practice the bible, the truth that we all seek to discover of our existence lies untouched. The fact is that we all live in a very small planet, Dave. We all have our differences of opinions and the way we look at things. But that is not an excuse to disregard our differences, look back at how far we have come along, and how far we have to go, and to suspend our ability to reason, and close the mind to advice. Arrogant theists like Ted Haggard can spew such propaganda all they want. In the end, despite their grandest of shows, the question remains; was it all worth it? Was it based on fact? Was it logical? Looking at our great diverse history of the human race and the history yet to be written, the answer is a painful No. Dave Anderson wrote on Fri, 04 February 2011 00:44 There's no God? That's your belief? Good for you, I'm happy you feel that way. You mock here without trying to see WHY I arrived at this position. Plus, it's not a belief (again). Does the ancient religions and present day religions mean anything to you? Is it all YOUR "God?" Here is something I asked before in my previous reply you did not respond to; requoted: Toggle Spoiler Starbuzzz wrote on Thu, 03 February 2011 23:18 Dave Anderson wrote on Thu, 03 February 2011 19:54 I really couldn't help to chuckle here.. What I said is a little abstract. To me, it's a bit of direction to someone who is searching or trying to educate themselves, or even try to understand "God". You cannot believe in something truly, with full faith just by reading it from a book. You cannot be forced upon yourself, to believe in any God, 'a' God, or be forced to agree that all of this information is true. It is a decision that each individual has to make for themselves. You seem to misunderstand. If one needs "a bit of direction" to find your god, then your god doesn't deserve to be found, let alone worshipped. I hope my example wasn't that hard to understand; left all alone in the jungle and growing up by yourself, would you have, all by yourself, come to worship the god you worship now and refer to as "Lord" with the gender of a male? Please tell me this. You had influence, rumours, parental teaching, church indoctrination, geographical factors (such as being American born in a predominantly Christian nation), etc etc. All these factors influenced you in your decision as they do to people of different faiths. Take away such factors and tell me if one can truly find YOUR Lord? Are you sure you have found the the right god? That you have found the right answer in your lifetime? I would hope now my example with finding a nature goddess would start to make sense. Dave Anderson wrote on Fri, 04 February 2011 00:44 However, a few years from now when something happens in your life that effects you on such a massive level that causes you to rethink things like this, you will probably look back and see that it has taken all that time, and through that experience, to get to that point in your life where your beliefs are more mature then they are now. I am not saying something is going to happen all of a sudden where you feel there is a God, but I am saying things will happen in life that will either change what you believe or build upon what you already belief; again, your beliefs will mature. What I said above with Ted Haggard applies here as well. Though there is a lot more here. If there is something that people want to know about the christian religion and how it keeps going, it is all summed up in this paragraph. Essentially, it is the argument from misfortune/ofrtune. "Misfortune" is a meek word to use here; disaster and tragedy would be better. And so, I feel there is something abhorrent in this statement (though I blame the religion, not Dave). This is how religion essentially survives; by playing on the fears and emotions of the people when they do face such events. "Rethink things like this"? and "feel there is a God?" This is not a belief system, my friend. A reasoning mind doesn't work that way. We are all infalliable humans. If you came up to me and surprised me, I would most probably jump. If you clapped your hands in front of me, my eyes would shut on reflex. You can waterboard me to make me change my mind and YET, SOMETHING will never change. My point? The ultimate truth in the Universe and beyond WILL NOT change at the whimsical emotional tides of a mere human mind. As a fine example, it doesn't matter if I come home to see my family dead or heard some horrible news, the fact that hundreds of religions existed before christianity wouldn't change. The fact that the continents were all one at some time won't change. The history of everything won't have changed despite when the mind allows itself to delude in times of extreme urgency. This is natural ofcourse, but theists use this as a point of speciality; it is plain wrong. You may be in an airliner which gets struck by lighting at 30,000 feet and bursts into a million pieces. And you may yet somehow survive and land with your seat in some forest and walk away with a few cuts. No doubt, you will be grateful to the the "Lord" for saving your life. But it really happened to this German woman who survived this real life incident: http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/07/02/germany.aircrash.survivor/index.h tml In an age of madness where short-sighted people quickly have used the word "miracle" and "God" in the last 2 jet crashes with 1 survivor each (no miracles, let along a thought for the others killed), the story of this Juliane woman is refreshing. It is just incredibly sad that we have this story at the cost of so many human lives; maybe we shouldn't waste it. People should be incredibly proud to have a living human being that despite the ghastly traumatic event in her life, NEVER suspended her abilty to reason unlike a believer or another weak-minded individual who would be more suspectible to say "God is real" at such a moment of harsh reality when it was down to pure circumstance. While I don't blame victims of trauma to seek the help of a divine entity in times of such emotional trauma, it is reckless of theists to claim that such divine entities "become true" as Dave wrongly states above. It is completely false. The harsh truth of the Universe remains constant despite human trauma. This is exactly what I think and you would be hardpressed to disagree. Back in Dec 13, 2009 in a visit to India, me and a friend of mine were driving; Indian roads are supremely dangerous; the car that just paid the toll in front of us ended up in a deadly crash: http://beta.thehindu.com/news/cities/Chennai/article64734.ece Just imagine how I felt; I was only the 3rd car behind it. There was severe injuries and on-the-spot deaths. I saw the destroyed bodies myself. It could have been me. My entire life, though not specifically me, is full of me seeing the misfortune of others. It has yet to befall me; maybe it will. After 9/11, church attendance rose. If people had a sense of reason and understanding of the human history of warfare, they would have known that everyday has a chance to be a 9/11 and that nothing should be taken for granted. So you tell me, why didn't "YOUR Lord" exist on 9/10 to thousands but did so on 9/11? Tell me in all honestly. Concluding, our brain that is suspectible to such hallucination and lapse of judgment is not the good source to find "God." If this is how your "God" reveals himself, then he doesn't deserve to be worshipped. He makes it much more harder on himself when hell is introduced as well. Ultimately Dave, short bursts of delusion under such emotional duress isn't the source of finding "God." Evidence and new information is; till that becomes available, we can all keep an open mind. I don't have the answer and I doubt anyone on the planet does. What we can do is stick together and look for it. edit: typos
Quote: Your entire post is based on the wrong premise that atheism is a belief system. I really don't know why you keep thinking we are discussing atheism itself, or that my posts are even regarding atheism.
Dave Anderson wrote on Sun, 06 February 2011 17:41 It most certainly does not. In my scenario they were able to confirm the initial event took place; specifics may or may not be confirmed to have existed or be factual, as in your example they could at least confirm some catastrophic event happened to New York and confirm the time frame and event itself occurred. but if the initial event was nothing supernatural at all, something that could have happened for a variety of reasons (human design, accident, etc)... Quote: Quote: fine. then we're faced with the very large number of people who are convinced that hell is a real place of horrific torture, and that you'll go there forever just for not being the right religion, and who spout this poisonous bullshit not just to adults like myself who can logically defend themself but to children. I most certainly agree. While I accept the fact that Heaven and Hell could be actual 'things' or 'places', I also accept the fact that I simply do not know. They might not exist at all, may be referencing something else we do not understand, or even something we do not yet know about. However, people who act as if they know that Hell is most certainly a physical or spiritual realm where we go when we die; treat this as fact, are blind to the reality that they may be completely wrong. The one thing I absolutely hate is something being taught as fact, when in all actuality we really don't know the answer yet. glad to hear this. we've gotten rid of slavery, we've nearly gotten rid of racism (not there yet but we've gotten rid of the worst of it) - if i have my way the next thing to go will be Hell. it certainly ought to; it's an appalling thing to say to someone, and it's usually directed at either children or sick/old/dying people, and it's completely contrary to the idea of freedom of religion. i.e. that a person should be able to believe what they believe without threats and bullying if it's not the right thing according to someone else. and, of course, the evidence that it's actually true is... well, shall we say "terrible" or "non-existent"? it certainly can't be very good since there are quite a few discrepant lists of who's going there. Quote: Quote: Really, everyone? Bin Laden, for example? Absolutely. Even myself for example, looking at this 'bmr_71' who comes across completely idiotic, immature, and someone who probably cannot hold an adult conversation with someone with an intelligence factor or IQ above 10, I can still say as a person I love him. I often find myself observing others sometimes, thinking that some of these people are just awful. Some people are evil at heart, some people just don't care. I understand though that there is always a reason for such behaviors, in which I may not know the answer to. Easy. We're poorly evolved primates. Our pre-frontal lobes are too small, our adrenaline glands are too big, we're afraid of death and the dark and each other. It was only a few thousand years ago (a blink of an eye in evolutionary time) that there was no such thing as what we'd call "civilisation", and our lives were every bit as brutish and dangerous as any animal's. We'd evolved for that sort of life. Quote: Quote: I'd be interested in hearing your opinion to my thread entitled "A psychological question: 'Choose to believe", here in Heated Discussions. I ask whether belief is a decision at all. Well, this is not something I am really prepared to answer. The question in itself is also a very large subject (also touchy), and I find myself possibly not even aware of if I have an answer for myself on what I think of that. I will have to give it some thought, because I've never really thought about that before in that context. Well, I've asked the question a few times and I haven't yet found anyone willing to say yes to it. Plenty of people have said no. Quote: I know you're sincere; it's pretty obvious in your posts. I suppose if you are good at filtering the idiots on the internet, then you are pretty okay in saying that its not censored. I guess you could also say that a lot of people, in person, get easily offended when you challenge or dicuss their religion in a manner other then how they see fit. Which so you know, I completely disagree with. I think it is insecurity when people are not comfortable in such a position to the point where they either won't discuss the matter, or will just claim they are correct; and that's that. In some cases it certainly insecurity; in others it's just the belief that blasphemy is a grievous crime which must be punished. The holy books do rather support that view, don't they? Quote: Quote: Of course, if you swap "God" for "Thor" or "aliens", you don't need to change another word (except "Christian") Agreed, because; If you take an individual who claims he was obducted by Aliens, well, to him that is as true as the Sky being blue during the day. He could be crazy, he could be sane. He could have actually experienced something out of the ordinary, and maybe his only explanation is 'Aliens'. It's hard to say because all we can do as people other than himself, is go by what he says. We didn't experience it; although that creates skepticism, and disbelief and a label slapped on him. Yeah. Quote: Quote: I hope you don't think i'm "condemning" a person just for what they think; i've argued against thoughtcrime many times, especially given the fact many religions thrive upon the concept. Condeming probably was not the appropriate word, and that reply was sort of more targeted at Starbuzz's reply; I wasn't very clear. I don't feel that you condemn people, you are very challenging in your arguments however, which some people probably do feel the opposite. That however, is not how I feel. OK. Quote: Quote: I think you might actually struggle to find a post from me where I assert the non-existence of any particular god. Curious here. Do you accept even the possiblity that there may be a God? Maybe even in the context of this discussion, do you accept the possibility that there may be an Intelligent Designer on some level of existance? If you don't mind me asking, what do you actually believe? let me narrow the question down. you say 'God'. capital G, singular. are you just talking about any god that might be out there, or do you have a specific one in mind - the abrahamic one? Quote: Quote: and if something really does happen to make me think that there's a particular God, then it's always worth remembering Hume's advice. i.e. am i really seeing a miracle here, a suspension of the natural order, or am I mistaken? if everyone involved in writing the bible asked themselves that, it might be a very different book. I do agree here. If something life changing were to happen these are logical questions to ask yourself. If you didn't, Spiderman would be your God and you would believe everything that's thrown at you. You do have to protect your beliefs with questions and knowledge. It's like people who have found a 'Jesus shaped Cheetoh'. My explanation: C'mon.. billions upon billions of Cheetoh's are processed each day, one is bound to look like 'something'. This is not something I would claim to be an 'act of God' or a 'sign'. Agreed.
Dave Anderson wrote on Mon, 07 February 2011 05:37 Quote: Your entire post is based on the wrong premise that atheism is a belief system. I really don't know why you keep thinking we are discussing atheism itself, or that my posts are even regarding atheism. We weren't. I was never under the impression we were. It is a mere state of looking at things from my view; nothing else. I did reply to everything you have to say and why exactly I can't take it, didn't I? If this will be your response, I stand by it. It was good talking with you and I say that sincerely.