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So, two things have happened recently that have me extremely worried. Yesterday, google forced YouTube account holders to link their YouTube accounts to google acounts, otherwise they would not be able to access them anymore. Now, for people like us, that's no problem, we just make a fake google account and voila. But the majority of people on YouTube are NOT like us. For instance children, or fathers, or housewives, etc. They will make a real google account, with all their personal information (including their phone number, as is recently introduced). This will enable google to link people's YouTube accounts, and all their viewing habits, to their personal information. Now, here's the second bit of news. Companies like Microsoft, Amazon, Yahoo, Steam, etc. Use separate servers in Europe and America to store their data (and all the personal information they hold). Google however stores most of their privacy-sensitive data in the USA. This makes it far and far and far easier for the American government to access all that information, than if they had a separate European server for European members' personal information. When a number of European citizens and companies complained about this ridiculous state of affairs, a google jurist at a symposium says: "Customer's shouldn't whine. We don't offer a villa you can decorate yourself, but an apartment, with all the benefits of the cloud at the lowest prices." Now, normally, I wouldn't mind, but... Google is a company that is rapidly expanding. Right now there are a number of independent sites that do have my personal information, what if they get taken over by google too? Also, don't forget the American Patriot Act. This is an EXTREMELY dangerous development. My (dutch) source: http://webwereld.nl/nieuws/105348/google-weigert-data-in-europa-te-houden.html This is also interesting: http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/jan/06/google-streetview-south-korea
cmatt42 wrote on Wed, 12 January 2011 15:24 Break out the tinfoil hats.
News just in: Google makes its money from targetted advertising! Shock Horror!
cmatt42 wrote on Wed, 12 January 2011 15:24 Break out the tinfoil hats. Iknow you american lot can't do much about it, but your privacy laws suck, if they exist at all (I mean, the government can request pretty much any information at any time because of "terrorism"). However, for information about a EU citizen stored in the EU, the governments are not so easily able to get the information (needs a court warrant and such). So, for American people this may not be a huge deal, but for EU-citizen it does actually make a different, presuming you care about privacy.
Can't say I care even one bit. I'm not hiding anything, I have a clean record...
Spyder wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 11:25 Can't say I care even one bit. I'm not hiding anything, I have a clean record... A dangerous statement, do you realize that? Now you may not have anything to hide, but it's impossible to say what the future might bring. You know that because the Netherlands had a very good citizen registration system with a lot of information like religion and other rather unimportant info, the nazi's where able to kill a whole lot of dutch jews during WWO2? Now I'm not saying this will happen again, but it is rather difficult to get privacy sensitive information removed once it's stored somewhere.
EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 04:23 Spyder wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 11:25 Can't say I care even one bit. I'm not hiding anything, I have a clean record... A dangerous statement, do you realize that? Now you may not have anything to hide, but it's impossible to say what the future might bring. You know that because the Netherlands had a very good citizen registration system with a lot of information like religion and other rather unimportant info, the nazi's where able to kill a whole lot of dutch jews during WWO2? Now I'm not saying this will happen again, but it is rather difficult to get privacy sensitive information removed once it's stored somewhere. If I have something to hide that's truly worth hiding, I probably shouldn't be allowed to hide it. The problem with your example isn't in the information being stored, but in the Nazis running around killing people.
Dover wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 14:52 EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 04:23 Spyder wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 11:25 Can't say I care even one bit. I'm not hiding anything, I have a clean record... A dangerous statement, do you realize that? Now you may not have anything to hide, but it's impossible to say what the future might bring. You know that because the Netherlands had a very good citizen registration system with a lot of information like religion and other rather unimportant info, the nazi's where able to kill a whole lot of dutch jews during WWO2? Now I'm not saying this will happen again, but it is rather difficult to get privacy sensitive information removed once it's stored somewhere. If I have something to hide that's truly worth hiding, I probably shouldn't be allowed to hide it. The problem with your example isn't in the information being stored, but in the Nazis running around killing people. It would've been harder (not impossible) to find them if that data wasn't found / didn't exist.
[insert some conspiracy about 9/11 here]
Dover wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 08:52 EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 04:23 Spyder wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 11:25 Can't say I care even one bit. I'm not hiding anything, I have a clean record... A dangerous statement, do you realize that? Now you may not have anything to hide, but it's impossible to say what the future might bring. You know that because the Netherlands had a very good citizen registration system with a lot of information like religion and other rather unimportant info, the nazi's where able to kill a whole lot of dutch jews during WWO2? Now I'm not saying this will happen again, but it is rather difficult to get privacy sensitive information removed once it's stored somewhere. If I have something to hide that's truly worth hiding, I probably shouldn't be allowed to hide it. The problem with your example isn't in the information being stored, but in the Nazis running around killing people.
The US doesn't have a Constitution anymore. Plain and simple. All of that was destroyed years ago.
CarrierII wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 09:27 Dover wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 14:52 EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 04:23 Spyder wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 11:25 Can't say I care even one bit. I'm not hiding anything, I have a clean record... A dangerous statement, do you realize that? Now you may not have anything to hide, but it's impossible to say what the future might bring. You know that because the Netherlands had a very good citizen registration system with a lot of information like religion and other rather unimportant info, the nazi's where able to kill a whole lot of dutch jews during WWO2? Now I'm not saying this will happen again, but it is rather difficult to get privacy sensitive information removed once it's stored somewhere. If I have something to hide that's truly worth hiding, I probably shouldn't be allowed to hide it. The problem with your example isn't in the information being stored, but in the Nazis running around killing people. It would've been harder (not impossible) to find them if that data wasn't found / didn't exist. Also, if gunpowder was never invented, nobody would ever have gotten shot. It's all the Chinese's fault! There's no holding back progress. Every advance that humanity has ever made has the potential to be abused. It's nobody's fault but humanity's for not being grown up enough to handle it. Sit and think about it for a minute. What reasonable, rational person would say "Hey, we should have a really shitty census system, just in case we get invaded by Nazis!"?
MUDKIPS wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 22:24 Dover wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 08:52 EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 04:23 Spyder wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 11:25 Can't say I care even one bit. I'm not hiding anything, I have a clean record... A dangerous statement, do you realize that? Now you may not have anything to hide, but it's impossible to say what the future might bring. You know that because the Netherlands had a very good citizen registration system with a lot of information like religion and other rather unimportant info, the nazi's where able to kill a whole lot of dutch jews during WWO2? Now I'm not saying this will happen again, but it is rather difficult to get privacy sensitive information removed once it's stored somewhere. If I have something to hide that's truly worth hiding, I probably shouldn't be allowed to hide it. The problem with your example isn't in the information being stored, but in the Nazis running around killing people.
MUDKIPS wrote on Fri, 14 January 2011 01:24 Dover wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 08:52 EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 04:23 Spyder wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 11:25 Can't say I care even one bit. I'm not hiding anything, I have a clean record... A dangerous statement, do you realize that? Now you may not have anything to hide, but it's impossible to say what the future might bring. You know that because the Netherlands had a very good citizen registration system with a lot of information like religion and other rather unimportant info, the nazi's where able to kill a whole lot of dutch jews during WWO2? Now I'm not saying this will happen again, but it is rather difficult to get privacy sensitive information removed once it's stored somewhere. If I have something to hide that's truly worth hiding, I probably shouldn't be allowed to hide it. The problem with your example isn't in the information being stored, but in the Nazis running around killing people. Actually, no. That doesn't sound like the US at all... I would first say that the US is communist before I would even support the idea of it being fascist. But it isn't even about the government. It's all about the people. As time goes on, the responsibilities of upholding a country driven by the people become easier and easier until they can pretty much be done autonomously. That means that people will soon forget how to handle their responsibilities and push it all onto someone else (namely loud mouth politicians.) The people don't care about the Constitution except for when they break the law and need a loophole to avoid arrest. Any time else they just want to go about their superficial, meaningless lives. The president is supposed to represent the ideals of the people. But who the hell is he representing when the vast majority of people don't bother to pay attention to what he says and does?
Dover wrote on Fri, 14 January 2011 13:14 CarrierII wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 09:27 Dover wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 14:52 EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 04:23 Spyder wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 11:25 Can't say I care even one bit. I'm not hiding anything, I have a clean record... A dangerous statement, do you realize that? Now you may not have anything to hide, but it's impossible to say what the future might bring. You know that because the Netherlands had a very good citizen registration system with a lot of information like religion and other rather unimportant info, the nazi's where able to kill a whole lot of dutch jews during WWO2? Now I'm not saying this will happen again, but it is rather difficult to get privacy sensitive information removed once it's stored somewhere. If I have something to hide that's truly worth hiding, I probably shouldn't be allowed to hide it. The problem with your example isn't in the information being stored, but in the Nazis running around killing people. It would've been harder (not impossible) to find them if that data wasn't found / didn't exist. Also, if gunpowder was never invented, nobody would ever have gotten shot. It's all the Chinese's fault! There's no holding back progress. Every advance that humanity has ever made has the potential to be abused. It's nobody's fault but humanity's for not being grown up enough to handle it. Sit and think about it for a minute. What reasonable, rational person would say "Hey, we should have a really shitty census system, just in case we get invaded by Nazis!"? Your mistake is in assuming I think that - I was merely indicating it was unfortunate, not proof of the census system's EVIL!!!! As to the topic, I just don't have an account with google...
CarrierII wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 18:27 Dover wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 14:52 EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 04:23 Spyder wrote on Thu, 13 January 2011 11:25 Can't say I care even one bit. I'm not hiding anything, I have a clean record... A dangerous statement, do you realize that? Now you may not have anything to hide, but it's impossible to say what the future might bring. You know that because the Netherlands had a very good citizen registration system with a lot of information like religion and other rather unimportant info, the nazi's where able to kill a whole lot of dutch jews during WWO2? Now I'm not saying this will happen again, but it is rather difficult to get privacy sensitive information removed once it's stored somewhere. If I have something to hide that's truly worth hiding, I probably shouldn't be allowed to hide it. The problem with your example isn't in the information being stored, but in the Nazis running around killing people. It would've been harder (not impossible) to find them if that data wasn't found / didn't exist. Carrier is right here. While somethings may be a gray area legal wise, it is impossible to say that there never will be something like this ever again. Hell, it is even LIKELY that something like this will happen again, the only question is when. If you read 1984 you'll understand that there are a lot of similarities between now and the situation described in the book, minus the violence and the oppression of the people. It is also a known and proven fact that governments tend to expand rather than shrink, and while expanding they also try to gain more and more power. Edit: oh and just for reference: I can identify 7 items that are not unknown to some of today's "civilized" western countries.
Google will take over the interweb world. no really
MUDKIPS wrote on Wed, 12 January 2011 12:22 So, two things have happened recently that have me extremely worried. Yesterday, google forced YouTube account holders to link their YouTube accounts to google acounts, otherwise they would not be able to access them anymore. Now, for people like us, that's no problem, we just make a fake google account and voila. But the majority of people on YouTube are NOT like us. For instance children, or fathers, or housewives, etc. They will make a real google account, with all their personal information (including their phone number, as is recently introduced). This will enable google to link people's YouTube accounts, and all their viewing habits, to their personal information. Now, here's the second bit of news. Companies like Microsoft, Amazon, Yahoo, Steam, etc. Use separate servers in Europe and America to store their data (and all the personal information they hold). Google however stores most of their privacy-sensitive data in the USA. This makes it far and far and far easier for the American government to access all that information, than if they had a separate European server for European members' personal information. When a number of European citizens and companies complained about this ridiculous state of affairs, a google jurist at a symposium says: "Customer's shouldn't whine. We don't offer a villa you can decorate yourself, but an apartment, with all the benefits of the cloud at the lowest prices." Now, normally, I wouldn't mind, but... Google is a company that is rapidly expanding. Right now there are a number of independent sites that do have my personal information, what if they get taken over by google too? Also, don't forget the American Patriot Act. This is an EXTREMELY dangerous development. My (dutch) source: http://webwereld.nl/nieuws/105348/google-weigert-data-in-europa-te-houden.html This is also interesting: http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/jan/06/google-streetview-south-korea Welcome to the Business, were organizations data mine your information, viewing habits and specifically advertise at you, since it's the easiest way to make legitimate money from the Internet. Tin foil hat much?
Clear your cookies, block 3rd party cookies or don't save any of them that's how they track your viewing habits any one can do it. You can also use options like private browsing with Internet Explorer and Firefox almost all browsers have this feature now.
Never will I understand what people are trying to hide in situations like this. Their porn stash? What is Google going to do with that? At the worst, the ads I get are going to be targeted to me and therefore have a higher degree of actually being of any remote interest to me. Oh, the humanity!
Dover wrote on Sat, 15 January 2011 14:27 Never will I understand what people are trying to hide in situations like this. Their porn stash? What is Google going to do with that? At the worst, the ads I get are going to be targeted to me and therefore have a higher degree of actually being of any remote interest to me. Oh, the humanity! Until google thinks it's a good idea to sell your (e-mail) adres, name and entire family to some v1agr4 selling company, because google knows you're watching porn all day. Other more terrible things are also possible, but they are listed above. Arguments you choose to ignore. I know you might not have noticed it (being a patriotic American and everything), but the American government during Bush have been selling out on privacy big time. Privacy is freedom, freedom to not be spied on while you're not doing anything harmful. As Benjamin Franklin said "He who sacrifices freedom for (temporarily) safety deserves neither safety or freedom.
EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Sat, 15 January 2011 07:04 Dover wrote on Sat, 15 January 2011 14:27 Never will I understand what people are trying to hide in situations like this. Their porn stash? What is Google going to do with that? At the worst, the ads I get are going to be targeted to me and therefore have a higher degree of actually being of any remote interest to me. Oh, the humanity! Until google thinks it's a good idea to sell your (e-mail) adres, name and entire family to some v1agr4 selling company, because google knows you're watching porn all day. Other more terrible things are also possible, but they are listed above. Arguments you choose to ignore. I know you might not have noticed it (being a patriotic American and everything), but the American government during Bush have been selling out on privacy big time. Privacy is freedom, freedom to not be spied on while you're not doing anything harmful. As Benjamin Franklin said "He who sacrifices freedom for (temporarily) safety deserves neither safety or freedom. I'm not sure which is sillier, the thought that I'm some kind of super-patriotic American or that someone needs Viagra for porn. Since you're a resident of this place we call the internet, I'm pretty sure I don't need to tell that spam emails happen with or without Google selling your email address. And even if they were to, it's an annoyance at worse, not the "EXTREMELY dangerous development" you and Mr. MUDKIPS seem to think it is. The other arguments listed above are fucking silly. What if Nazis take over Google? Then they'd have my email address and can send me threatening spam! Oh no! I guess we better destroy all records and maps, so the Nazis can't find my house when they take over! Probably a good idea to do away with the mailman, he comes to my house every day and could tell the Nazis everything! And I'm such Ben Franklin is rolling over in his grave at the though of YouTube accounts and Google accounts being linked. It's an affront to everything the founding fathers stood for! Now excuse me while I go buy enough tinfoil to make hats for the next 50 years. Fucking ridiculous.
Dover wrote on Sat, 15 January 2011 19:33 I'm not sure which is sillier, the thought that I'm some kind of super-patriotic American or that someone needs Viagra for porn. That's not patriotism, that's apathy. Let me just line it up carefully for you. 1. Europe has strict privacy laws, ergo, we as Europeans have a really strong sense of privacy, we don't want our personal information out there, for whatever reason whatsoever. 2. Europe also has strict advertising laws, ergo, we as Europeans don't have ad-riddled lives like people from America. 3. Last week the American government tried to pull personal information from a Dutch ISP founder, and an Icelandic member of parliament, who were thought to be involved with wikileaks. They tried to pull their information and promptly told to GTFO. (Although they did force twitter to give up some information) 4. It is found out that google stores private information not on their European servers, but on their American servers. This would circumvent the problem in point 3. quite nicely because. 5. America has a patriot act and Europe doesn't, because we, as said earlier, have a strong sense of privacy. (6. Concerning the wikileaks matter, as it turns out, America is really fucking with a lot of countries, and when you do that, you shouldn't whine when people make that bullshit public. People that aren't even from America itself.) 2 Days ago they did a special on Dutch TV on the wikileaks documents concerning the Netherlands. Looking at how America has been fucking about with my country, I really don't want any single piece of my personal information in their hands whatsoever.
So call it what it is, the prevalence of American culture. Not some kind of new world Fascist order or any other the other nonsense you're trying to paint this as. Notice how the only people being harmed in this situation are the guys involved with the wikileaks nonsense, who really brought it on their own head. Think about it for a minute. Regardless of how you or I feel about the whole wikileaks debacle, are you really surprised that there are people out there trying to pull his information? Really, this entire thread boils down to your points 1 and 2. "We're Europeans, so our way of life is different from those in America, therefore their way of life is wrong and ours is right".
What the fuck is wrong with you people! You start complaining about Google collecting userdata being privacy infringement, but you keep on posting all your personal details and whatnot on sites such as Facebook, MySpace, Hyves, Twitter and I don't know what's all out there. It's not the websites infringing your privacy, it's you destroying your own private life by publishing it on the internet. PEOPLE ARE NOT INTERESTED IN YOUR TWEET SAYING THAT YOU WERE TAKING A CRAP AND THE BIG TURD LOOKED JUST LIKE THE FOOD YOU ATE THE OTHER DAY!
Dover wrote on Sun, 16 January 2011 01:57 So call it what it is, the prevalence of American culture. Not some kind of new world Fascist order or any other the other nonsense you're trying to paint this as. Notice how the only people being harmed in this situation are the guys involved with the wikileaks nonsense, who really brought it on their own head. Think about it for a minute. Regardless of how you or I feel about the whole wikileaks debacle, are you really surprised that there are people out there trying to pull his information? Really, this entire thread boils down to your points 1 and 2. "We're Europeans, so our way of life is different from those in America, therefore their way of life is wrong and ours is right". I think the beef about Google storing their European information on American servers is legitimate, as their laws are different. However, while I understand the concern, everyone here has to realize that people are putting their information, and allowing these account links on their own accord. Europe has these laws because the EU is a nanny-"supra-national" state, that feels the need to hold people's hands.In the US, if an individual chooses to not read the Terms of Service, chooses to forfeit their privacy, and chooses to ignore any associated privacy concerns, that's entirely of their own choosing.
Dover wrote on Sun, 16 January 2011 08:57 So call it what it is, the prevalence of American culture. Not some kind of new world Fascist order or any other the other nonsense you're trying to paint this as. Notice how the only people being harmed in this situation are the guys involved with the wikileaks nonsense, who really brought it on their own head. Think about it for a minute. Regardless of how you or I feel about the whole wikileaks debacle, are you really surprised that there are people out there trying to pull his information? Really, this entire thread boils down to your points 1 and 2. "We're Europeans, so our way of life is different from those in America, therefore their way of life is wrong and ours is right". No it boils down to: "We're Europeans, so our way of life is different from those in America, therefore their way of life should not be forced upon us by sneaky actions taken by private companies". That you don't care about privacy is no problem for me, I'm explaining why I'm pro-privacy. You come up with ridicules twisting of words implying that I said Nazi's will take over Google. I'm trying to sketch why privacy *MIGHT BE* important. Now who is forcing his opinion on others? I think in this case it's Google trying to circumvent EU-law while still reaping the benefits of the EU (Double dutch sandwich, among other things); I don't see what's weird with warning other people of this. Whether you need that warning or not is up to you, albeit, with you living in the USA, you have no choice anyway.
nikki6ixx wrote on Mon, 17 January 2011 05:17 Dover wrote on Sun, 16 January 2011 01:57 So call it what it is, the prevalence of American culture. Not some kind of new world Fascist order or any other the other nonsense you're trying to paint this as. Notice how the only people being harmed in this situation are the guys involved with the wikileaks nonsense, who really brought it on their own head. Think about it for a minute. Regardless of how you or I feel about the whole wikileaks debacle, are you really surprised that there are people out there trying to pull his information? Really, this entire thread boils down to your points 1 and 2. "We're Europeans, so our way of life is different from those in America, therefore their way of life is wrong and ours is right". I think the beef about Google storing their European information on American servers is legitimate, as their laws are different. However, while I understand the concern, everyone here has to realize that people are putting their information, and allowing these account links on their own accord. Europe has these laws because the EU is a nanny-"supra-national" state, that feels the need to hold people's hands.In the US, if an individual chooses to not read the Terms of Service, chooses to forfeit their privacy, and chooses to ignore any associated privacy concerns, that's entirely of their own choosing. While I know it's different for the USA, one should understand this is because we, Europeans choose it to be like that. It could be called rude of Google to decide for us that we don't want that, don't you think? Imagen it would be the other way around, what would you think about that? Would you agree with a multinational originating from the EU trying to circumvent certain laws you have in your country?
EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 17 January 2011 09:38 While I know it's different for the USA, one should understand this is because we, Europeans choose it to be like that. It could be called rude of Google to decide for us that we don't want that, don't you think? Imagen it would be the other way around, what would you think about that? Would you agree with a multinational originating from the EU trying to circumvent certain laws you have in your country? Oh, I agree with you. That's why I said in my first sentence that anyone in Europe should be concerned about this. If I were European, I'd be concerned. But this is likely just a wake-up call. The EU and Canada are entering a free-trade agreement, which will then give the EU free access to the United States through NAFTA. Expect more of this, as European companies move or expand their operations here.
Why would audience targeted advertising be something to worry about? If you don't do anything illegal - or post evidence of you doing anything illegal or slagging off your boss etc on the internet then I don't see what you have to worry about. If google sold, mislaid, gave or someone else managed to get your personal information, then google is, in most countries, liable for prosecution and liable for damages caused. Surfing habits would probably not hold up as personal information, and besides, who the hell is dumb enough to click the sponsored ads anyway? So, in my honest opinion, I don't give a shit.
The people that are worried about this are the paranoid people that think the government has their eyes and ears everywhere. They are concerned that if Google is collecting this information from it's users then the government is a peek away from spying on it's citizens. That's what the concern is. And there isn't any justification for it. It's all just a big conspiracy theory.
R315r4z0r wrote on Mon, 17 January 2011 15:57 The people that are worried about this are the paranoid people that think the government has their eyes and ears everywhere. They are concerned that if Google is collecting this information from it's users then the government is a peek away from spying on it's citizens. That's what the concern is. And there isn't any justification for it. It's all just a big conspiracy theory. My government doesn't have eyes and ears everywhere, but the American government does.
R315r4z0r wrote on Mon, 17 January 2011 22:57 The people that are worried about this are the paranoid people that think the government has their eyes and ears everywhere. They are concerned that if Google is collecting this information from it's users then the government is a peek away from spying on it's citizens. That's what the concern is. And there isn't any justification for it. It's all just a big conspiracy theory. Well, if I would say that, I would probably right. The Dutch government has the most phonetaps. (Sorry MUDKIPS) The US government oes indeed want to have eyes and ears everywhere. It wouldn't be the first time a big EU company didn't get a contract due to US goverment officials spying on EU companies, so the USA companies can bid lower (Airbus-Boeing)
http://www.businessinsider.com/well-these-new-zuckerberg-ims-wont-help-facebooks -privacy-problems-2010-5 how many of u dumb fucks have facebook i mean not offensive. but according to him.
Quote: Edit: oh and just for reference: I can identify 7 items that are not unknown to some of today's "civilized" western countries. I like how the bottom portion of that is clearly edited in Photoshop. Quote: We're Europeans, so our way of life is different from those in America, therefore their way of life should not be forced upon us Quote: Looking at how America has been fucking about with my country Did you guys ever get to paying us back for the tremendous amount of aid we gave you to rebuild your countries after the Nazis destroyed them in WWII? I'm just curious. Seems like people forget quickly and hate\crow superiority just as fast. /We're not "America", we're the United States of America; properly abbreviated US or USA //The Americas are a geographic region, not a country
its poor image. written by Laurence W. Britt. no photoshop.
Okay, even said; that really doesn't apply at all. Here's why: Quote: "Powerful and continuing nationalism" There is too much dissent and apathy on this subject for it to be remotely relevant. Most US citizens don't care about their country beyond what it can give them for free. Quote: "Disdain for human rights" That's why we're one of the countries that routinely tortures and kills its own citizens for protesting the government, and why social services are non-existent. We also don't provide any type of free medical services. We're pretty much the United Syria of America. Quote: "Identification of enemies as a unifying cause" This applies to many countries, not just us. I fail to see the reasoning here. It's easier to get the populace behind an idea than it is to get them behind a set of ideas that describe a variety of situations and people. Quote: "Supremacy of the military" The military answers to the people, not vice versa. Only in rare exceptions does this not apply, e.g. Area 51 and other top-secret bases. Quote: "Rampant sexism" Like Europe is enlightened on that subject? You people are practically where this shit started. Quote: "Controlled mass media" By whom? Businessmen? That's new! Quote: "Obsession with national security" I'd wager that less than half of our populace gives a thought to national security on a weekly, if not monthly basis. There are other things people care about more, such as: food, fucking, sleeping, etc. Quote: "Religion and government intertwined" See: ACLU; also see: judicial activism against religion in government. Quote: "Corporate power protected" By what? Congress? Osamabama? Corporations get a lot of free rides but they aren't "protected" by any means. See: AT&T, Microsoft, etc. Quote: "Labor power suppressed" Suppressing themselves? Sure. We'll do that. Ask General Motors what they think of labor power and you'll get an idea of why labor, at least in the automotive sector, is suppressed. Fuckwits nearly destroyed their respective industry. Quote: "Disdain for the intellectual and the arts" Plenty of "intellectuals" have issues with other "intellectuals" and the "arts". Whose definition are we going with here? Some obscure image whose definition of "intellectual" and "arts" is nebulous at best? Quote: "Obsession with crime and punishment" Well, yeah. Don't do that shit if you don't want to go to jail. Quote: "Rampant cronyism and corruption" Found in any government. Tada! Quote: "Fraudulent elections" Are we referring to the attempt of Al Gore to steal the election from G.W. Bush by excessively litigating over "hanging chads" and "voter intent" based on said chads, dimples, etc in voting cards? Or are we referring to the rampant ignorance of the US population (and the world, it seems) on how the government's elections have worked for the past 200 years and more? The image is propaganda. Nothing to see here. /Bolded for her pleasure //This belongs in the politics forum ///Slashies
The Marshall plan had as main objective to rebuild a lucrative offset market for American companies.
Who does anything for entirely selfless reasons? That wasn't my point.
Aircraftkiller wrote on Mon, 28 March 2011 08:32 Okay, even said; that really doesn't apply at all. Here's why: Quote: "Powerful and continuing nationalism" There is too much dissent and apathy on this subject for it to be remotely relevant. Most US citizens don't care about their country beyond what it can give them for free. Well, in my opinion the forced national anthem every day?/week? at primary schools is a form of nationalism. There are other things as well, but I can't find the proper words for them right now. Will come back on it once I find them. Quote: Quote: "Disdain for human rights" That's why we're one of the countries that routinely tortures and kills its own citizens for protesting the government, and why social services are non-existent. We also don't provide any type of free medical services. We're pretty much the United Syria of America. Well, it's true that you're not torturing your OWN citizen. You collect them in another part of the world, abducts them to wherever (could be Guantanamo bay, or some other secret CIA prison) and then torture them. That makes it entirely alright. Oh and you also are one of the 27 countries in the world that still apply the death penalty, some invention I would not call the prime example of civilization. Quote: Quote: "Identification of enemies as a unifying cause" This applies to many countries, not just us. I fail to see the reasoning here. It's easier to get the populace behind an idea than it is to get them behind a set of ideas that describe a variety of situations and people. It's true that it applies to a lot of countries, but that doesn't mean it's not a sign of fascism. Let's face it, there are more non-democratic countries in the world that democratic countries. In the case of the USA, it is terrorism. While I agree terrorism is a problem in the world, I also believe that terrorism can only prevail when your average citizen is afraid of terrorism. I know it's possible to get injured or get killed by a bomb or w/e, but I also know that it's a lot more likely that I get killed in a car accident (even though statistics say that the Netherlands is one of the safest countries regarding traffic!) Quote: Quote: "Supremacy of the military" The military answers to the people, not vice versa. Only in rare exceptions does this not apply, e.g. Area 51 and other top-secret bases. I think you're taking this one a little to literal, glorifying the military would also count as far as I can tell. Quote: Quote: "Rampant sexism" Like Europe is enlightened on that subject? You people are practically where this shit started. I'm unsure what you mean here? Also I do not see how this applies to either Europe or the USA in current times. Yes, the USA could be considered more prude than the EU, but I don't think that's relevant here. Quote: Quote: "Controlled mass media" By whom? Businessmen? That's new! Well, the point one can make here is that "the news" claims to be independent. It's questionable how for ex. different TV stations, that are owned by the same businessman, will provide you with different news. It is rather plausible that the political preference of the businessman is to some extend reflected in the news. It's also known that in order for journalists to go into Iraq during the war, they could choose, either they got censored by the army and could hitch a ride, or they would not get any protection at all. Not even the guarantee they wouldn't get shot by USA soldiers. Quote: Quote: "Obsession with national security" I'd wager that less than half of our populace gives a thought to national security on a weekly, if not monthly basis. There are other things people care about more, such as: food, fucking, sleeping, etc. It's on a national level, not the level of your average citizen. Politicians don't have to worry about your food on a weekly or even monthly basis now do they? Quote: Quote: "Religion and government intertwined" See: ACLU; also see: judicial activism against religion in government. Never said that all of them where true for the USA. Although I personally feel that there is a lot of Christianity influence in the US culture, even to an extend where politicians that do not believe in God could have serious issues with the people. However, I think this one cannot be (easily) applied to the USA today. Quote: Quote: "Corporate power protected" By what? Congress? Osamabama? Corporations get a lot of free rides but they aren't "protected" by any means. See: AT&T, Microsoft, etc. You name an interesting one there, with Microsoft. Bush used his powers to prevent MS having to split into multiple corporations. Also, it is widely known how much power lobby groups have in the USA. While this is not strictly a bad thing, it does make it hard for the government to apply needed business rules. The creditcrisis shows that there is need for outside regulation in some markets. Quote: Quote: "Labor power suppressed" Suppressing themselves? Sure. We'll do that. Ask General Motors what they think of labor power and you'll get an idea of why labor, at least in the automotive sector, is suppressed. Fuckwits nearly destroyed their respective industry. I'm not sure what you're referring to? Might give me new insights in how it is or is not suppressed. Quote: Quote: "Disdain for the intellectual and the arts" Plenty of "intellectuals" have issues with other "intellectuals" and the "arts". Whose definition are we going with here? Some obscure image whose definition of "intellectual" and "arts" is nebulous at best? Again, not all have to apply. And although I do not know enough about the USA to judge this point, I do know that in my own country, currently, there is a change going on. A change that influences a lot of artist and a change which makes the politician not responding to scientific reports and proof, but what they believe it is. Populism would be the word I think. Quote: Quote: "Obsession with crime and punishment" Well, yeah. Don't do that shit if you don't want to go to jail. Well, I find that to be a little shortsighted. Let me explain with two examples. 1) I steal a watch from a jewelery store. This should obviously be punished right? 2) I steal a bread from Walmart because my family doesn't have anything to eat. While obviously it's wrong to steal, but in this case one should IMHO receive a lot less punishment. Punishment should be there to primarily influence the criminal to not do bad things again. It is proven that it is more effective to have a high catch rate than to have long prison terms. Which, I think, makes sense. If you know that you're say 80% sure that you'll get caught, it is likely not to be worth the risk. If you know that you'll get a life sentence but the chance of getting caught is <0.0001% it might prove profitable. Quote: Quote: "Rampant cronyism and corruption" Found in any government. Tada! Deflecting, that somebody else is wrong as well doesn't make it right for either of them. Again, example: if my neighbor robs a bank, it's still not ok for me to rob a bank, right? Quote: Quote: "Fraudulent elections" Are we referring to the attempt of Al Gore to steal the election from G.W. Bush by excessively litigating over "hanging chads" and "voter intent" based on said chads, dimples, etc in voting cards? Or are we referring to the rampant ignorance of the US population (and the world, it seems) on how the government's elections have worked for the past 200 years and more? Well, if after the recount Al Gore did win, then how is that not a "sort of" fraudulent election? In any way it did not go as it should in a democratic society, where the majority counts. In this case, Bush became and stayed president because the recount was done after the was inaugurated. It is indeed questionable that this was done on purpose, but still basic democratic values where not met. Quote: The image is propaganda. Nothing to see here. /Bolded for her pleasure //This belongs in the politics forum ///Slashies If this image is propaganda, then for whom is it propaganda? If it is propaganda it can only be propaganda AGAINST FASCISM, something only few of us will find to be pity I would say? I know I'm happy to live in a free part of the world. I also know that for it to continue to be free, we have to guard our values, what we stand for.
Aircraftkiller wrote on Mon, 28 March 2011 06:16 [...] Did you guys ever get to paying us back for the tremendous amount of aid we gave you to rebuild your countries after the Nazis destroyed them in WWII? I'm just curious. Seems like people forget quickly and hate\crow superiority just as fast. /We're not "America", we're the United States of America; properly abbreviated US or USA //The Americas are a geographic region, not a country Aid from which the USA has benefited a lot, learn your economics. The USA needed a market for their products, and with Europe being devastated from the war, they found it. Not that I'm not grateful for what the USA did back then, I certainly am. Hell, I'm currently, in this thread, fighting against the same thing as the Allied soldiers did back then. Fighting against Fascism. It's not relevant who does it or tries to do it, it just should be prevented. Therefore it's a good thing to discuss why some things can be considered signs of fascism and what the dangers of them are. It gains awareness, something we need with all the current threads to democracy and personal freedom. Corporate/national freedom is something different than personal freedom
Aircraftkiller wrote on Mon, 28 March 2011 09:00 Who does anything for entirely selfless reasons? That wasn't my point. No, but it does make clear that without our European misery, the USA economy couldn't have grown to it's current size. It also means that the USD wouldn't have been the strong currency it is today and that in turn would mean the USA would not be able to lend the amounts of money it currently does.
Aircraftkiller wrote on Sun, 27 March 2011 21:16 Did you guys ever get to paying us back for the tremendous amount of aid we gave you to rebuild your countries after the Nazis destroyed them in WWII? I'm just curious. Seems like people forget quickly and hate\crow superiority just as fast. Do you guys ever get to paying us back for founding you with the tremendous amount of resources we invested in your empty country? I'm just curious. Seems like people forget quickly and hate/crow superiority just as fast.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus
MUDKIPS wrote on Mon, 28 March 2011 12:54 Aircraftkiller wrote on Sun, 27 March 2011 21:16 Did you guys ever get to paying us back for the tremendous amount of aid we gave you to rebuild your countries after the Nazis destroyed them in WWII? I'm just curious. Seems like people forget quickly and hate\crow superiority just as fast. Do you guys ever get to paying us back for founding you with the tremendous amount of resources we invested in your empty country? I'm just curious. Seems like people forget quickly and hate/crow superiority just as fast. Good point, without the Dutch New York wouldn't even be there. Do you still need to be grateful for that? Or can we call it even after WW2? Hell, if Europe would've lost the war, I would've been German. Would I have mind then? Probably not, got all the right exterior feats, so not much chance of me disappearing or anything so no problem there, at least, not for me. Germany had a great economy going at the time as well, so that wouldn't have been much of an issue either. So, I though the USA was so capitalistic and focused on the individuality of people. This would mean that we would have to calculate how much I personally benefited from your grandfathers and mothers sacrifice. So, how are we going to settle this? Or, perhaps, we should not focus on the past but the future. I dare to say I memorize the losses of lives during WW2 more than you do anyway. I visit wargrayards and visit/watch: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remembrance_of_the_Dead more than once a year. Edit: Oh and now we're thanking the USA, I guess I thank you for the opportunity to rebuild the entire city center of Arnhem and Nijmegen as well. We couldn't have done it without you guys .
The Google monster is already too big to stop, if you don't like what they are doing you need to either: A. Avoid using it B. Provide fake information on it I'm sorry if other countries' citizens are unknowingly using an US based company to do their interwebzing, guess you just have to hope that the people that are doing it are either: A. Doing nothing illegal so have nothing to worry about. B. Are doing illegal stuff and are smart enough not to post real information on the interwebz. Because let's face it, if you're doing illegal shit and you're not even being smart enough to attempt to cover your tracks you deserve what is coming.
Wait, did someone just stated there isn't Powerful nationalism in the USA??
Jerad Gray wrote on Mon, 28 March 2011 19:50 The Google monster is already too big to stop, if you don't like what they are doing you need to either: A. Avoid using it B. Provide fake information on it I'm sorry if other countries' citizens are unknowingly using an US based company to do their interwebzing, guess you just have to hope that the people that are doing it are either: A. Doing nothing illegal so have nothing to worry about. B. Are doing illegal stuff and are smart enough not to post real information on the interwebz. Because let's face it, if you're doing illegal shit and you're not even being smart enough to attempt to cover your tracks you deserve what is coming. Thanks to shit like Google analytics (and Google adwords btw) you don't get much choice. Therefore I find the complaint to be valid. If I go to a website inside the EU (which therefore has to comply to EU-laws regarding privacy) I do not expect my information to be send secretly to USA servers. Now I am not doing anything illegal (or, not according to Dutch law) but that doesn't mean that I want more information stored about me than strictly necessary. Information is power, and I do not intend to give more power to organisations with their own agenda. Particularly not if that power resides in a country which has shown that it does not respect all Human Rights. Now I know there are a lot of countries that do not respect this, but in the case of the USA it happens willingly and intentionally. For ex. anyone entering the USA is treated as a suspect (or why do they otherwise want your fingerprints?). And then there is Guantanamo bay, which I think does not require any explanation.
Zeratul wrote on Tue, 29 March 2011 15:11 Isn't general motors government owned? Disdain for intellectuals.