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Liquid trying to understand British logic - cleared
liquidv2 wrote on Thu, 28 October 2010 18:05 clearsh0t and simpee thought it was an outrage that pointmod servers would have more rank than original point servers i don't think they understood that it was either the proposed handicap against it or no ladder at all; if they did it was just stubbornness firstly, as to which you allude, they were too stupid to see that the move was yet another compromise in their direction, in spite of the fact nobody on their side would ever budge an inch the other way. secondly, they were so angry at not getting their way ("their way" meaning they alone would make the decisions about the TT/BHS ladder) that they actively tried to sabotage it. this is almost exactly what they tried to do to the clanwars league earlier on for exactly the same reason. thirdly, how was it done? ENDLESSLY lying to the community (i'm talking pages and pages and pages, as you well know), knowingly making accusations that -a- they knew at the time were lies and -b- they didn't even have the common sense to withdraw once they were disproven, and against -c- someone who'd never done them anything but favours. (i'll add -d- trying to cover up their own past offences) their goal was to impose their own opinion upon someone else's ladder project, with no regard at all for debate or "democracy" or the rights of the people who owned it, and the method by which they tried to do it was one of the most dishonest things this game has ever seen. i hate to remind you, liquid, that while they were doing this, i kept trying over and over and over again to point out to you that this is what they were doing to the clanwars league - you unfailingly took their side (i.e. the right of cheaters and pointpushers and rulebreakers and compulsive liars to impose their will on someone else's league, instead of the league owner and duly appointed admin's right to decide how their own project should be run). the problem wasn't what these cheaters were doing, the problem was i supposedly "wasn't listening to them" (a bit of an odd statement considering the amount of debate i encouraged on the subject... it's a euphemism for "not doing what they say, let's be honest) no, don't understate all that as "stubbornness". spiteful, vindictive, selfish, extraordinarily dishonest... call it what it was. you completely disgraced yourself by unceasingly taking the side of the people who kept trying to sabotage the clanwars league instead of mine; i hope you're not so bollock-brainedly stupid about the situation now Quote: clanwars and public games are far different from each other, and while clanwars players are far better overall public games are closer to intended renegade game sizes more games are played publically, and the ladder should be designed to fit what we can best determine to be intended renegade i may as well get this over with because it's bound to crop up sooner or later: i think the original renegade points system westwood designed (i.e. pointsfix) is superior gameplay in every way to that fucking retarded bug/mod where you can get points for absolutely no reason (?!) i do not, however, think the original ladder system westwood designed is ideal at all. i can vastly improve upon it. so, "it's what westwood intended" is by no means the beginning and the end of the argument. they did a fine job designing the points system, they did a pathetic job designing the ladder. like i said, if i didn't say that now i'd almost certainly be saying it later. Quote: a ladder will never be perfect, but i believe a pretty damn good one could be made i agree; it would be very simple indeed to make one better than the original westwood ladders. i could accomplish that with just a few fundamental number changes, never mind anything anyone's said about the pointsfix.
Quote: secondly, they were so angry at not getting their way ("their way" meaning they alone would make the decisions about the TT/BHS ladder) that they actively tried to sabotage it. i think they were mad that original points servers would be penalized and not held at the same value as pointmod servers, and that's why they said Fuck Spoony and fuck the TT ladder i don't remember them saying they wanted control of the ladder or anything like that Quote: i think the original renegade points system westwood designed (i.e. pointsfix) is superior gameplay in every way to that fucking retarded bug/mod where you can get points for absolutely no reason (?!) idk, games seem closer with the bugged points i have fun in both but it's definitely easier with the original points to gain income and use it against the enemy the enemy is more than welcome to do the same against me i do agree that the game is more fair with the pointmod, in terms of point distribution does it balance the game more? idk, i think it makes Nod do better more often than GDI in public servers more so than the original points is that a bad thing? depends on your perspective Quote: i do not, however, think the original ladder system westwood designed is ideal at all. i can vastly improve upon it. so, "it's what westwood intended" is by no means the beginning and the end of the argument. they did a fine job designing the points system, they did a pathetic job designing the ladder. like i said, if i didn't say that now i'd almost certainly be saying it later. who's saying the westwood ladder is the best way to rank renegade? it's a stupid argument we have the chance now to make one that's far more in-depth than theirs had a chance to be you rant entirely too much about how bad of people simpee and clearsh0t are it had nothing to do with anything in this case and i've heard it all before and i thought i covered this in my post Quote: firstly, as to which you allude, they were too stupid to see that the move was yet another compromise in their direction, in spite of the fact nobody on their side would ever budge an inch the other way. either they're so biased against you at this point for whatever reason or reasons that they completely ignore the fact that you're trying to do something in their favor, or they don't think that that's good enough and feel original points should count as much as the pointmod it's their opinion; it doesn't have to match yours or make any sense Quote: their goal was to impose their own opinion upon someone else's ladder project, with no regard at all for debate or "democracy" or the rights of the people who owned it, and the method by which they tried to do it was one of the most dishonest things this game has ever seen. some people are closed-minded, and they have the right to be what did they do that was so dishonest? tell lies about past things you did or something completely unrelated? i don't even remember, but it seems much more important to you than it does to me i'm just gonna throw this out there, i'm not sure renegade would be around or still living if the pointmod had been the original point system
liquidv2 wrote on Thu, 28 October 2010 20:00 i don't remember them saying they wanted control of the ladder or anything like that well, they certainly didn't want to be admins (i recruit for renadmins and they don't apply, cos that means you actually have to do some work), but they still want to make all the decisions nonetheless, and either threaten or carry out direct action if they're not obeyed. Quote: i have fun in both but it's definitely easier with the original points to gain income and use it against the enemy that's right. if you can get points and money for absolutely no reason, it is easier to get money. well observed. Quote: the enemy is more than welcome to do the same against me i do agree that the game is more fair with the pointmod, in terms of point distribution does it balance the game more? idk, i think it makes Nod do better more often than GDI in public servers more so than the original points is that a bad thing? depends on your perspective a lot of people in public servers still don't really know how to play GDI properly. Quote: Quote: i do not, however, think the original ladder system westwood designed is ideal at all. i can vastly improve upon it. so, "it's what westwood intended" is by no means the beginning and the end of the argument. they did a fine job designing the points system, they did a pathetic job designing the ladder. like i said, if i didn't say that now i'd almost certainly be saying it later. [color=skyblue]who's saying the westwood ladder is the best way to rank renegade? it's a stupid argument we have the chance now to make one that's far more in-depth than theirs had a chance to be i was pre-empting an objection. Quote: you rant entirely too much about how bad of people simpee and clearsh0t are it had nothing to do with anything in this case and i've heard it all before has everything to do with what troop said. you have indeed heard it all before (and usually sided with them) Quote: Quote: firstly, as to which you allude, they were too stupid to see that the move was yet another compromise in their direction, in spite of the fact nobody on their side would ever budge an inch the other way. [color=skyblue]either they're so biased against you at this point for whatever reason or reasons i love these euphemisms of yours. "for whatever reason or reasons", as if maybe they have legitimate grievances but we don't have time to go into that. well, we gave them plenty of time to air their concerns about the problems of having spoony as an admin. you remember what they did, i hope? you remember the ENORMOUS list of accusations they posted against me, EVERY SINGLE ONE of which turned out to be a knowing fabrication? Quote: that they completely ignore the fact that you're trying to do something in their favor that's the anti-pointsfix crowd in a nutshell. Quote: or they don't think that that's good enough and feel original points should count as much as the pointmod you perhaps missed simpee saying that if he had his way, no servers would be allowed to use the pointsfix at all? something which - as i keep unsuccessfully trying to remind you - they tried to put into action when i was originally testing the pointsfix at clanwars, and you supported them when they did? Quote: it's their opinion; it doesn't have to match yours or make any sense oh, please. don't try to describe an absurd episode of extraordinary dishonesty and vindictiveness as "well, their opinion doesn't have to match yours". if someone cheated in jelly and you banned him for it, i might as well say you banned him for having a different opinion (on whether it's acceptable to cheat) Quote: what did they do that was so dishonest? tell lies about past things you did or something completely unrelated? i don't even remember, but it seems much more important to you than it does to me it wasn't unrelated, because clearshot and simpee specifically brought it all up as an argument against the TT ladder. once it occurred to them that the decisions on how the ladder would be run might not be made by them and them alone, they tried to sabotage it rather than it be run in a way other than theirs (EXACTLY LIKE THEY DID TO CLANWARS) they tried to drive people away from the ladder by saying don't play here guys, spoony's the admin of it (not quite true but meh) and here's a huge list of admin abuses he did at his other ladder. and of course, they posted their huge list of accusations - every single one of which was an easily exposed lie. and all this comes from two people who actually do have records of cheating and pointpushing and breaking rules - when i pointed that out, surprise surprise, they lied about that too. Quote: i'm just gonna throw this out there, i'm not sure renegade would be around or still living if the pointmod had been the original point system that's ridiculous. if the point bug had never existed, it would never have occurred to anybody to make a mod to let people get points by shooting tanks with snipers and auto rifles, thinking that this was the right solution to the problem of not having enough money. i would be surprised if anybody even thought that this "problem" existed at all.
liquidv2 wrote on Thu, 28 October 2010 18:05 why would you (troop) or anyone want only clanwars players designing a ladder that affects non-clanwars players more? I think everyone is forgetting a very important point...whats the purpose of a ladder? To increase competition. Who would be better to design such a system than those who play at the HIGHEST competitive level themselves? Letting public server players decide how a central ladder for this game would work, is like letting the obese decide who competes in the olympics...... And Spoony, I think your putting me into the wrong time frame lol because I was there when (not just him but yah) soul "disagreed" with you when you wanted to change some rules. @clanwar players being good in small games but not larger ones...LOL? No clue where you got this idea from, but if someone can win 2v2's against decent players, they will have no trouble at all getting an MVP in jelly aow.....
trooprm02 wrote on Thu, 28 October 2010 22:54 I think everyone is forgetting a very important point...whats the purpose of a ladder? To increase competition. Who would be better to design such a system than those who play at the HIGHEST competitive level themselves? Letting public server players decide how a central ladder for this game would work, is like letting the obese decide who competes in the olympics...... i think obese people do decide who competes, just sayin the HIGHEST competitive level is a clanwar to you renegade was actually designed for bigger than that why would you be better at making a ladder than someone that plays intended renegade? you're all about little games go make a clanwar renegade ladder for small games if you know so much about competitive renegade because that will affect you
no one can argue rationally that the original points were intended i'm not saying that either; what i am saying is that despite it being bugged it might be the reason renegade is still around or alive and kicking it allows for more flexibility as far as games go, even though it's unfair and flawed if it were such a problem people would have quit playing it years ago but they've played on Quote: you perhaps missed simpee saying that if he had his way, no servers would be allowed to use the pointsfix at all? something which - as i keep unsuccessfully trying to remind you - they tried to put into action when i was originally testing the pointsfix at clanwars, and you supported them when they did? no, what i kept saying was i thought you were a douche for putting the pointmod in clanwars despite the fact that seemingly 90% of your players didn't want it which, you had every right in the world to do, it's your league you wanted the game to be more balanced and fair they could have gone somewhere else but they trust and stand by you - to them and much of renegade there is no clanwars now without Spoony clanwars doesn't have to be a democracy, but people can easily say that you're a douche for ignoring your player base instead of making the game more fun for it and making decision that please it saying i support them (clear and simpee) getting the pointmod removed from renegade is a load of shit lol i don't think they went out of their way to get people to avoid the TT ladder, one of them made a post saying Everyone forget about this shit it's Spoony and he's stubborn and the ladder is bullshit don't even worry about it in their own words that's hardly leading a rebellion like you're describing it to be
"no, what i kept saying was i thought you were a douche for putting the pointmod in clanwars despite the fact that seemingly 90% of your players didn't want it"
trooprm02 wrote on Thu, 28 October 2010 22:54 I think everyone is forgetting a very important point...whats the purpose of a ladder? To increase competition. Who would be better to design such a system than those who play at the HIGHEST competitive level themselves? Letting public server players decide how a central ladder for this game would work, is like letting the obese decide who competes in the olympics...... so you're not at all in favour of it being 'democratically' decided, is what you're saying? Quote: And Spoony, I think your putting me into the wrong time frame lol because I was there when (not just him but yah) soul "disagreed" with you when you wanted to change some rules. uh no, i'm talking about when he pointpushed with photoshopped screenshots, lying to everyone (including his own clan) in the process, and i was the only person who thought he should be punished for it. everyone else at clanwars (give or take maybe 2 people) thought he should be let off because he played twice as much as everyone else. Quote: no one can argue rationally that the original points were intended which is to say that the overwhelming majority of people who've weighed in on the pointsfix debates were not doing so rationally. Quote: i'm not saying that either; what i am saying is that despite it being bugged it might be the reason renegade is still around or alive and kicking good lord Quote: it allows for more flexibility as far as games go, even though it's unfair and flawed "flexibility" means half the tactics available don't work because the enemy gets more points defending against them than you get by using them to attack, does it? but to compensate for all these unfeasible ways to play, you have the option of just shooting tanks with a sniper all game, achieving absolutely nothing but getting an extraordinary amount of points for doing so. Quote: if it were such a problem people would have quit playing it years ago but they've played on shall i repeat one of the things i kept saying about how the point bug affected clanwars? it made some maps so unfair that players like simpee would just leave at the beginning if they got the bad side. they'd pretend it wasn't because they got the bad side, but you always knew it was. eventually it got so bad that i had to make new rules to stop them doing it, and suddenly they didn't have to leave anymore. Quote: no, what i kept saying was i thought you were a douche for putting the pointmod in clanwars despite the fact that seemingly 90% of your players didn't want it that just shows how stupid you were at the time, because it never occurred to you to call those "90%" douches for not even managing to bother setting up a league for anybody at all. perhaps you also remember that i listed everyone who was outraged at the thought of the game being fairer; it was no coincidence that every single one of them had a track record of cheating, pointpushing, rulebreaking, dishonesty etc - something i kept pointing out to you over and over again and i couldn't seem to get you to care about. you think a cheater and compulsive liar like robo's opinion on how a league should be run is worth as much as mine? if you do, please say so and have done with it Quote: which, you had every right in the world to do, it's your league you wanted the game to be more balanced and fair yes, and they didn't Quote: they could have gone somewhere else but they trust and stand by you - to them and much of renegade there is no clanwars now without Spoony uh? how many more times do i need to repeat what they actually did? they didn't trust or stand by me, they were so angry at not getting their way (despite me giving them every opportunity to actually explain WHY YOU SHOULD GET POINTS FOR NO REASON AT ALL, and them catastrophically failing in every debate thread) - that they actively tried to sabotage the league through a campaign of lies, rigged polls and manipulation. for example, they went secretly to the clanwars server owners and totally lied about what was going on in the forums at the time to get them to change the server settings. Quote: clanwars doesn't have to be a democracy indeed, and the people you were so staunchly siding with didn't want it to be a democracy either, though unlike me they lied to you and said they did. again, perhaps you missed people like simpee and karmai saying whose opinions count and whose don't, depending on how good you are - and, get this, simpee saying whiskey's vote shouldn't count because he happened to agree with spoony. Quote: but people can easily say that you're a douche for ignoring your player base sure, if they want to lie. i didn't ignore my player base, it's an absurd and desperate lie to say i did. i went to extraordinary lengths to encourage debate on the subject. the "player base" you're talking about, which is another euphemism for a small number of cheaters and rulebreakers and compulsive liars - ignored me. Quote: instead of making the game more fun for it and making decision that please it ah, i see the problem. you think i should make decisions that please people who don't want the game to be fair. well, as long as we disagree on that we won't agree on much else either. Quote: saying i support them (clear and simpee) getting the pointmod removed from renegade is a load of shit lol saying you supported the campaign of lies and manipulation by a group of cheaters to subvert and sabotage someone else's community because they were angry at not getting their way in that community is a simple description of the facts. it all boiled down a question of whether an individual server/league/whatever is entitled to choose in its own way whether to use the pointsfix or not, and make no mistake, you weren't on the right side. while these cheaters were sabotaging a community because they were furious at the decisions not being made by THEM ALONE, your entire commentary on the situation was telling me that i should do what this small number of cheaters and pointpushers demanded. honestly, i hope you realise how much of a fucking retard you were being at the time Quote: i don't think they went out of their way to get people to avoid the TT ladder, one of them made a post saying Everyone forget about this shit it's Spoony and he's stubborn and the ladder is bullshit don't even worry about it why do you keep using these euphemisms? they posted a huge list of accusations against me, most of which would be worse than cheating if they were true - and every one of which they were knowingly lying about. why do you say "they said spoony was stubborn"? Quote: that's hardly leading a rebellion like you're describing it to be it's true that their attempt to sabotage the TT ladder didn't get as far as their earlier attempt to sabotage the clanwars ladder IN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY FOR EXACTLY THE SAME REASON.
C'mon now liquid! Renegade is alive and kicking because the remaining players can't get enough of it no matter how hard and long they play. No matter how many times I swoop down and squish some Havoc or kill a sneaking Hotwire with an Apache (75 times yesterday in 1 game lol), I still am left unsatisfied and so am going to play again now! This is why this game is hard to leave!!!! It is a addictive formula that appeals to many.
i'm gonna ask CarrierII or Gozy to split this, i think the ladder discussion is important Quote: shall i repeat one of the things i kept saying about how the point bug affected clanwars? renegade's overall prosperity and survival as a whole has less to do with clanwars than you think the majority of ren players don't play competitive renegade i said what i said about the pointmod based on what i've noticed over time Quote: perhaps you also remember that i listed everyone who was outraged at the thought of the game being fairer; it was no coincidence that every single one of them had a track record of cheating, pointpushing, rulebreaking, dishonesty etc - something i kept pointing out to you over and over again and i couldn't seem to get you to care about. you think a cheater and compulsive liar like robo's opinion on how a league should be run is worth as much as mine? you listed several players that openly disagreed via the clanwars forums with your decision to use the pointmod in clanwars you act as if those players were the only ones that didn't want it used in clanwars; the majority if the league did not want it used, and those players did not make up the majority alone and don't talk about robo, the whole c4smoke CVS thing has done enough for the kid let his renputation rest peacefully Quote: they didn't trust or stand by me, yah they did; why do you think they stuck around? Quote: they actively tried to sabotage the league through a campaign of lies, rigged polls and manipulation. what do you mean sabotage the league? Quote: for example, they went secretly to the clanwars server owners and totally lied about what was going on in the forums at the time to get them to change the server settings. that's a bitch move, but if the servers were not set to your settings then by default the games would mean nothing sure their settings would be in place, but you could put a dead stop to your ladder until they agree to play by your rules Quote: indeed, and the people you were so staunchly siding with didn't want it to be a democracy either, though unlike me they lied to you and said they did. again, perhaps you missed people like simpee and karmai saying whose opinions count and whose don't, depending on how good you are - and, get this, simpee saying whiskey's vote shouldn't count because he happened to agree with spoony. their opinions were biased and you know that, so why does it bother you so much when they said or did stupid things? i thought it was douchey of you to go against your playerbase if it makes them happy why not keep it? Quote: sure, if they want to lie. i didn't ignore my player base, it's an absurd and desperate lie to say i did. i went to extraordinary lengths to encourage debate on the subject. the "player base" you're talking about, which is another euphemism for a small number of cheaters and rulebreakers and compulsive liars - ignored me. it's more a poor choice of words than a desperate lie, instead you went against your player base the majority of your league at the time was cheaters, rulebreakers, and compulsive liars? i think we've had this discussion before, because that's what i said the last time you said that and i already addressed that, because these cheaters, rulebreakers, and compulsive liars you listed at the time were not the only people against using the pointmod in clanwars Quote: ah, i see the problem. you think i should make decisions that please people who don't want the game to be fair. well, as long as we disagree on that we won't agree on much else either. if that's the majority of your league then why not? do you host the league to satisfy yourself? Quote: saying you supported the campaign of lies and manipulation by a group of cheaters to subvert and sabotage someone else's community because they were angry at not getting their way in that community is a simple description of the facts. i had their campaign posters all over my bedroom walls who said i supported the way they went about it? i never said i supported them rigging polls or lying to server owners to get the servers changed without your permission Quote: it all boiled down a question of whether an individual server/league/whatever is entitled to choose in its own way whether to use the pointsfix or not, and make no mistake, you weren't on the right side. while these cheaters were sabotaging a community because they were furious at the decisions not being made by THEM ALONE, your entire commentary on the situation was telling me that i should do what this small number of cheaters and pointpushers demanded. honestly, i hope you realise how much of a fucking retard you were being at the time i disagree; i told you you had every right to do it multiple times i might add i said i was confused as to why you didn't side with the majority of your league it's unfortunate that the small number of cheaters, pointpushers, and compulsive liars were a part of that majority of your league, but that's just the way it is or was Quote: they posted a huge list of accusations against me, most of which would be worse than cheating if they were true - and every one of which they were knowingly lying about. why do you say "they said spoony was stubborn"? did you ask them to make a list? lol i thought that in one of their posts, like the one where they said "Screw the ladder it's bullshit," that they said you were stubborn or something along those lines if it wasn't then then it may have been another time, or not at all, but it's something i can see either of them saying even if they didn't does it matter? and you should have been thrilled that they made a big list openly like that, it allowed you to publically clear up grievances and accusations they could have been lying compulsively but what if their accusations were things they truly believe? Quote: it's true that their attempt to sabotage the TT ladder didn't get as far as their earlier attempt to sabotage the clanwars ladder IN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY FOR EXACTLY THE SAME REASON. what attempt? you're exaggerating in an obesely disgusting manner they said in their own words Fuck the TT ladder, it's stupid, forget about it you're acting like they led rallies and marched to the EA headquarters with anti-spoony t-shirt and Fuck TT signs i don't get why you're shouting, i guess simpee and clear must make you really mad maybe that's why you banned them! you mean to tell me they made a post saying Fuck Spoony and his clanwars ladder that was similar to their post about the TT ladder post? this is an outrage what else did they do to sabotage the clanwars ladder? lie to clanwars server owners in an attempt to get it changed? perhaps they're just very confused individuals and weren't intentionally lying to them, but were instead telling them what they believed to be true
liquidv2 wrote on Fri, 29 October 2010 18:29 you listed several players that openly disagreed via the clanwars forums with your decision to use the pointmod in clanwars you act as if those players were the only ones that didn't want it used in clanwars; the majority if the league did not want it used, and those players did not make up the majority alone please don't lie, you're better than that. i listed every single person who expressed their opposition to the correct points system being used at clanwars.cc, and every single one of them - without exception - had a shitty track record in terms of fairplay and honesty. it was a rogue's gallery, remember? Quote: Quote: they didn't trust or stand by me, yah they did; why do you think they stuck around? wanting to use my clan ladder on their own terms, without the slightest respect for the person who owns and runs it and wanting to make all the admin decisions themselves without having to do any of the actual work does not constitute "trusting" or "sticking by" me. Quote: Quote: they actively tried to sabotage the league through a campaign of lies, rigged polls and manipulation. what do you mean sabotage the league? why have i had to explain this so many times already? i said it over and over and over again at the time it was happening, is it so much to expect that you listen to what the person you're arguing with is saying? Quote: Quote: for example, they went secretly to the clanwars server owners and totally lied about what was going on in the forums at the time to get them to change the server settings. that's a bitch move, but if the servers were not set to your settings then by default the games would mean nothing unless the players reported games illegally, as players like simpee and clearshot already had a history of doing... Quote: sure their settings would be in place, but you could put a dead stop to your ladder until they agree to play by your rules i'm sure you'd be firmly on their side if i did. Quote: their opinions were biased and you know that again, euphemism. they're cheaters and compulsive liars. Quote: i thought it was douchey of you to go against your playerbase and yet every single person who wanted a pointbugged ladder is AUTOMATICALLY much more "douchey" than i could ever be, because they can't be bothered hosting. as for "going against my playerbase", like i kept saying over and over and over again, the majority at clanwars.cc has a sad history of being catastrophically wrong a great deal of the time, so wrong that had their opinions been heeded there've been at least two occasions where it would've led to the complete shutdown of the entire league. again, i kept pointing this out to you at the time, and you seemed oddly unmoved by it. Quote: if it makes them happy why not keep it? if it would make them happy how about one of them pull their fingers out and host one themselves instead of expecting me to accommdate their fucking ridiculous point bugs that they can't even logically explain? Quote: Quote: sure, if they want to lie. i didn't ignore my player base, it's an absurd and desperate lie to say i did. i went to extraordinary lengths to encourage debate on the subject. the "player base" you're talking about, which is another euphemism for a small number of cheaters and rulebreakers and compulsive liars - ignored me. it's more a poor choice of words than a desperate lie, instead you went against your player base yes it is a lie and i exposed it repeatedly the first time around. you kept saying i "wasn't listening" to these cheaters and pointpushers and compulsive liars. what a fucking stupid thing to say. one look at the clanwars forum disproves it; i went to extraordinary lengths to listen to these twats. furthermore, listening to them infuriates them. the thing above all that they seemed to despise about me was the fact i would always read what they said and replied to it, a courtesy i very rarely got in return. don't say "listened to" when you mean "obeyed". and don't say "playerbase" when you mean "a small number of cheaters" Quote: the majority of your league at the time was cheaters, rulebreakers, and compulsive liars? no (though the proportion is depressingly high), but every person on the field at the time you're talking about was. Quote: and i already addressed that, because these cheaters, rulebreakers, and compulsive liars you listed at the time were not the only people against using the pointmod in clanwars they were the only people publicly arguing against it in the debate thread that existed for that specific purpose. Quote: Quote: ah, i see the problem. you think i should make decisions that please people who don't want the game to be fair. well, as long as we disagree on that we won't agree on much else either. if that's the majority of your league then why not? if that was the majority of the league i would've closed it a very long time ago. Quote: do you host the league to satisfy yourself? would that be any kind of criticism if that were true? it's better than hosting it to satisfy the cheaters and pointpushers and compulsive liars you were so robustly defending Quote: who said i supported the way they went about it? i never said i supported them rigging polls or lying to server owners to get the servers changed without your permission and in the dozens and dozens of posts and PMs you put forth on the subject, the one and only opinion you could bring yourself to express was the "you should listen to your playerbase" (or, as we've established, "you should obey these cheaters") Quote: i disagree; i told you you had every right to do it multiple times i might add yes, you said that, but i don't think you understood either of its two implications. firstly that someone like e.g. simpee has absolutely nothing other than thanks owed to me, secondly the only kind of person who should be criticised for failing to host a pointbugged ladder is someone who wants one but can't be bothered hosting it (a long list of names which does not include Spoony) Quote: i said i was confused as to why you didn't side with the majority of your league i know you were confused no matter how many times i explained it to you. firstly the majority at clanwars has a track record of bollock-brained stupidity, before we even get into the dishonesty. secondly clanwars decisions were being made by the appointed admins long before i had any power there. thirdly... i'll get to that in my next statement Quote: it's unfortunate that the small number of cheaters, pointpushers, and compulsive liars were a part of that majority of your league, but that's just the way it is thirdly, it was never established that the "majority" was against the pointsfix at all. remember? i listed every single person who argued against the pointsfix in the debate thread that was there for the purpose. every single name. it was something like 6 or 7. Quote: Quote: they posted a huge list of accusations against me, most of which would be worse than cheating if they were true - and every one of which they were knowingly lying about. why do you say "they said spoony was stubborn"? did you ask them to make a list? lol i think clearshot took it upon himself to rattle off a list of reasons why nobody should use the TT ladder, since spoony was the admin and we all know how many times he's used his admin powers to pointpush etc Quote: and you should have been thrilled that they made a big list openly like that, it allowed you to publically clear up grievances and accusations it allowed me to expose simpee and clearshot for the compulsive-lying cheating little bitches that i've known they are for some time. Quote: they could have been lying compulsively but what if their accusations were things they truly believe? then they would have withdrawn their accusations at the point at which i debunked them. but it's a bit ironic that you're thinking of granting them the presumption of innocence, given that you've spent several years under a delusion that they intentionally created with all the lies and rigged polls they set up. Quote: what attempt? you're exaggerating in an obesely disgusting manner they said in their own words Fuck the TT ladder, it's stupid, forget about it you're acting like they led rallies and marched to the EA headquarters with anti-spoony t-shirt and Fuck TT signs what would the jelly staff do if it turned out you had been cheating for years up to and including the present day? as to the marching on EA, the only person who did that was roni, but it turned out he didn't think an individual community should be able to decide for itself whether to use the pointsfix or not either. Quote: i don't get why you're shouting, i guess simpee and clear must make you really mad maybe that's why you banned them! try not to be stupid Quote: you mean to tell me they made a post saying Fuck Spoony and his clanwars ladder that was similar to their post about the TT ladder post? this is an outrage what else did they do to sabotage the clanwars ladder? lie to clanwars server owners in an attempt to get it changed? that alone would have been enough; it would have been like me hacking into the jelly box to install the pointsfix. what would you have done had i done so? Quote: perhaps they're just very confused individuals and weren't intentionally lying to them, but were instead telling them what they believed to be true do you think that was also the case in all the other times they were caught lying about stuff?
Quote: please don't lie, you're better than that. i listed every single person who expressed their opposition to the correct points system being used at clanwars.cc, and every single one of them - without exception - had a shitty track record in terms of fairplay and honesty. it was a rogue's gallery, remember? i was under the assumption that there was a poll about using the pointmod in clanwars and that the vast majority said No, don't use it you act as if this alliance of cheaters, liars, and rapists is that majority clanwars at the time must have consisted of 15 or less players Quote: wanting to use my clan ladder on their own terms, without the slightest respect for the person who owns and runs it and wanting to make all the admin decisions themselves without having to do any of the actual work does not constitute "trusting" or "sticking by" me. the only way in their eyes to have clanwars is the spoony way, but when the spoony way went against what they wanted they tried to get it changed they might not show you respect but they respect what you've done enough to want to use it themselves Quote: why have i had to explain this so many times already? i said it over and over and over again at the time it was happening, is it so much to expect that you listen to what the person you're arguing with is saying? it seems to me like you're blowing things they did out of proportion we have different views on things, which is why i wanted you to summarize it for me so i could figure out what you mean you won't so i can't be sure either way Quote: unless the players reported games illegally, as players like simpee and clearshot already had a history of doing... you're the admin, you can nullify them i'm saying you can shut it down until the servers are changed back Quote: i'm sure you'd be firmly on their side if i did. why do you say that? Quote: again, euphemism. they're cheaters and compulsive liars. you're cheaters and compulsive liars. Quote: and yet every single person who wanted a pointbugged ladder is AUTOMATICALLY much more "douchey" than i could ever be, because they can't be bothered hosting. how many players from cw.cc actually know how to run a ladder? or make one? or think they could do a better job than you at it? troop doesn't count, he's mentally retarded Quote: as for "going against my playerbase", like i kept saying over and over and over again, the majority at clanwars.cc has a sad history of being catastrophically wrong a great deal of the time, so wrong that had their opinions been heeded there've been at least two occasions where it would've led to the complete shutdown of the entire league. you cite the Soul example here, but how would letting a pointpusher play shut the league down? what's the other occasion? it seems like you're exaggerating the events to me, and since i don't know what they were i can't say either way clanwars.cc survived for a long time using the original points, and i don't think it would have shut down had you continued to use it (which would have pleased your playerbase, based on the numbers) Quote: again, i kept pointing this out to you at the time, and you seemed oddly unmoved by it. because it sounds like shenanigans and bologna Quote: if it would make them happy how about one of them pull their fingers out and host one themselves instead of expecting me to accommdate their fucking ridiculous point bugs that they can't even logically explain? i covered this Quote: yes it is a lie and i exposed it repeatedly the first time around. you kept saying i "wasn't listening" to these cheaters and pointpushers and compulsive liars. what a fucking stupid thing to say. one look at the clanwars forum disproves it; i went to extraordinary lengths to listen to these twats. furthermore, listening to them infuriates them. the thing above all that they seemed to despise about me was the fact i would always read what they said and replied to it, a courtesy i very rarely got in return. i wasn't trying to lie about it what i was trying to say all along is you did not side with the majority of your players i apologize for saying "ignoring your player base" because in all honesty i meant the above after watching you slap karmai and simpee and the others around in that topic perhaps none of the others wanted to voice their opinions muffinjay said he thought renegade balances out with the original points and you tore him up too like he had insulted a family member in his opinion maybe Westwood intended it - based on what we know i'd say he's wrong, but it's another perspective to look at why, if in your eyes the majority wanted the pointmod on, did they vote No in that poll? Quote: don't say "listened to" when you mean "obeyed". and don't say "playerbase" when you mean "a small number of cheaters" i was siding with the majority; this band of rapists and murderers and cheaters and liars just so happened to be a part of that majority i also agreed with the legit and fair players that voted No to using the pointmod in clanwars that you've taken out of the equation i find it hard to believe that all of cw.cc cheats and lies Quote: they were the only people publicly arguing against it in the debate thread that existed for that specific purpose. so? they weren't the only ones that didn't want to play with the pointmod in clanwars the majority did not want it - like i said i thought it was a douchey move on your part to go against what your playerbase wanted Quote: if that was the majority of the league i would've closed it a very long time ago. so the majority wanted to use the pointmod and the only people that did not were simpee and his gang of bandits and terrorists Quote: would that be any kind of criticism if that were true? it's better than hosting it to satisfy the cheaters and pointpushers and compulsive liars you were so robustly defending i was defending the fact that the majority of your league wanted something and you sided over them on it Quote: and in the dozens and dozens of posts and PMs you put forth on the subject, the one and only opinion you could bring yourself to express was the "you should listen to your playerbase" (or, as we've established, "you should obey these cheaters") the cheaters, along with the majority of clanwars.cc that voted No to using the pointmod Quote: yes, you said that, but i don't think you understood either of its two implications. firstly that someone like e.g. simpee has absolutely nothing other than thanks owed to me, secondly the only kind of person who should be criticised for failing to host a pointbugged ladder is someone who wants one but can't be bothered hosting it (a long list of names which does not include Spoony) the thinking is that there can't be clanwars without spoony spoony does it right; he may be a douche but he does a good job from the people i've spoken to over the years that's what i got from it no one wants to go completely against you and try to do a better job than you all they wanted was you to not change the way the game played out after everyone in clanwars knew and fully understood how it worked Quote: i know you were confused no matter how many times i explained it to you. firstly the majority at clanwars has a track record of bollock-brained stupidity, before we even get into the dishonesty. secondly clanwars decisions were being made by the appointed admins long before i had any power there. thirdly... i'll get to that in my next statement i don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, but i did think that changing renegade was a big deal Quote: thirdly, it was never established that the "majority" was against the pointsfix at all. remember? i listed every single person who argued against the pointsfix in the debate thread that was there for the purpose. every single name. it was something like 6 or 7. i covered this Quote: it allowed me to expose simpee and clearshot for the compulsive-lying cheating little bitches that i've known they are for some time. so what's the problem? people had beef with you, you let them lay it out and then you cooked and ate said beef then you took a beefy shit on them Quote: but it's a bit ironic that you're thinking of granting them the presumption of innocence, given that you've spent several years under a delusion that they intentionally created with all the lies and rigged polls they set up. you're right, the polls brainwashed me what was i thinking?! Quote: what would the jelly staff do if it turned out you had been cheating for years up to and including the present day? probably say Wow, liquid was cheating for years? how were we supposed to know AHAHAHA they'd remove me and carry on with business i don't understand why you threw that idea out there Quote: as to the marching on EA, the only person who did that was roni, but it turned out he didn't think an individual community should be able to decide for itself whether to use the pointsfix or not either. i think he cleared that up when you accused him of that he wanted there to be a choice; that's why i signed his ren-e-petition Quote: that alone would have been enough; it would have been like me hacking into the jelly box to install the pointsfix. what would you have done had i done so? that's not the same thing it would be like you lying to jelly to get him to put the pointmod on the servers Quote: do you think that was also the case in all the other times they were caught lying about stuff? i think that you're the bad guy here and used simpee and clearsh0t as your scapegoats
spoony the wars over bro.. all of the "anti pointfix" people are gone or no longer care anymore so u may aswell stop the reputation rape. u can set the ladder at -80% for playing on a non pointfix server and theres not a clanwar player who would say anything against it
liquidv2 wrote on Fri, 29 October 2010 20:25 i was under the assumption that there was a poll about using the pointmod in clanwars and that the vast majority said No, don't use it a poll started by a player, without any admin endorsement. decisions at clanwars have never been determined by polls, and anonymous ones are obviously open to rigging... which the anti-pointsfix crowd had already been caught doing. but even if every single player in the league besides me was adamantly anti-pointsfix, i'd still be right and you'd still be wrong here Quote: you act as if this alliance of cheaters, liars, and rapists is that majority clanwars at the time must have consisted of 15 or less players hooray, it's dawning on you how small the community was Quote: the only way in their eyes to have clanwars is the spoony way then there's something seriously wrong with said eyes, since i certainly told them enough times that there was absolutely nothing stopping any of them hosting their own league. Quote: but when the spoony way went against what they wanted they tried to get it changed yes, like they did when blkst0rm and i banned soul for pointpushing with photoshopped screenshots. they were so angry at that that they - again - tried to sabotage the league (by trying to get people banned on purpose). this is the kind of people we're talking about here, the "playerbase" (cheaters) you want me to "listen to" (obey) Quote: they might not show you respect but they respect what you've done enough to want to use it themselves seriously, stop trying to euphemise... you aren't any good at it Quote: it seems to me like you're blowing things they did out of proportion we have different views on things, which is why i wanted you to summarize it for me so i could figure out what you mean you won't so i can't be sure either way you seemed very sure at the time. i kept pointing out that the entirety of the people you wanted me to "listen to" were cheaters, pointpushers etc who had a long habit of not "listening" to the, y'know, rules and stuff. i kept pointing out that the "majority" of clanwars have a demonstrable track record of extraordinary stupidity. again, no reaction. i said the last time it was spoony vs the entire clanwars community on an issue, the clanwars community was so catastrophically wrong that if they'd been listened to, it probably would've resulted in the entire shutdown of the league. EVEN THAT couldn't provoke the slightest reaction from you. no, the only thing on your mind was "listen to the playerbase" (obey the cheaters) Quote: you're the admin, you can nullify them sure, cheating and be punished if it's caught... what if it isn't caught? Quote: i'm saying you can shut it down until the servers are changed back would you think me less of a "douche" if i did? Quote: Quote: again, euphemism. they're cheaters and compulsive liars. you're cheaters and compulsive liars. don't be stupid. i know you're probably a bit embarrassed at who you were so enthusiastically supporting, but don't be stupid. Quote: Quote: and yet every single person who wanted a pointbugged ladder is AUTOMATICALLY much more "douchey" than i could ever be, because they can't be bothered hosting. how many players from cw.cc actually know how to run a ladder? or make one? or think they could do a better job than you at it? troop doesn't count, he's mentally retarded there's no need to make excuses for these people. you can read their own excuses. you may have noticed me directly asking people like orca and simpee why they don't host a pointbugged ladder since they're the ones who think there should be one. simpee said he couldn't be bothered (the honesty came as quite a surprise), orca said he would not lower himself to putting any money or time into running anything for renegade. Quote: you cite the Soul example here, but how would letting a pointpusher play shut the league down? the entire community was firmly on the side of the guy who pointpushed with photoshopped screenshots and lied to everyone for about a week to try to get away with it (including his own clan, probably the worst thing you can do in the clan world). everyone was hailing him as a hero and flaming the shit out of me for banning him. thanks to how unbelievably low the community had sunk, there was an imminent danger of the renegade league being shut down altogether by the site owners purely because of the embarrassment the renegade portion of the site was causing. i can't fault CLAN WARS for looking at the clanwars renegade forums at the time and wondering why he was spending so much as a cent on such an unbelievably fucked up community. Quote: clanwars.cc survived for a long time using the original points though several rules had to be made to deal with the problems the bug caused... Quote: Quote: again, i kept pointing this out to you at the time, and you seemed oddly unmoved by it. because it sounds like shenanigans and bologna sad to hear you were completely taken in by the lies and manipulations of a group of cheaters, but you didn't believe spoony. Quote: Quote: if it would make them happy how about one of them pull their fingers out and host one themselves instead of expecting me to accommdate their fucking ridiculous point bugs that they can't even logically explain? i covered this completely unsuccessfully. Quote: i wasn't trying to lie about it what i was trying to say all along is you did not side with the majority of your players that doesn't have quite the same kick, though, does it? doesn't actually sound as if i've done anything wrong if you put it that way, does it? so that's no good. Quote: after watching you slap karmai and simpee and the others around in that topic perhaps none of the others wanted to voice their opinions well, at clanwars it matters whether you actually have a fucking clue what you're talking about, not whether you can find four people who agree with you. that's how rules are decided, and i remind you that not a single person on the anti-pointsfix side had a fucking clue what they were talking about. Quote: muffinjay said he thought renegade balances out with the original points and you tore him up too like he had insulted a family member no, i said that what he said was stupid, because it was. he said it made sense for ramjets to get bucketloads of points off tanks because they did do damage after all, albeit a very very small amount of damage. Quote: why, if in your eyes the majority wanted the pointmod on, did they vote No in that poll? you're assuming that all the No votes were different people, are you? that's generous of you, given the fact the anti-pointsfix crowd had already established the practice of rigging polls and lying about the results. the sad part is i thought i'd always made it clear that those polls are worthless to me in deciding league policy. again, if it had been 99% no and 1% yes with me being the 1%, it wouldn't have changed the fact that nobody in the 99% had a fucking clue what they were talking about and were caught lying innumerable times, and it wouldn't change the fact that any of those 99% could set up a pointbugged ladder for themselves if any of them could actually give a shit about the community. Quote: Quote: don't say "listened to" when you mean "obeyed". and don't say "playerbase" when you mean "a small number of cheaters" i was siding with the majority; this band of rapists and murderers and cheaters and liars just so happened to be a part of that majority again, do yourself a favour of don't lie, they were the entirety of the opposition. it doesn't matter how many No votes there were, nobody said it did. Quote: i also agreed with the legit and fair players that voted No to using the pointmod in clanwars that you've taken out of the equation wow, what's with the lying? i went to extraordinary lengths to give everyone the chance to join the "equation", but the equation is a debate, not a vote. you don't change my mind on a rule by saying here are five people who agree with me, you change my mind on a rule by saying here's why the rule is wrong and why this alternative would be right. i gave everyone ample opportunity to do that, they tried, they catastrophically failed. and yet despite their abject failure to convince me that they ought to have a pointbugged ladder, nothing ever stopped them setting their own one up. but no, apparently i've got to do it for him. jesus, listen to what an idiot you're being Quote: i find it hard to believe that all of cw.cc cheats and lies not all, probably not even a majority, but it's a higher proportion than i'd like Quote: they were the only people publicly arguing against it in the debate thread that existed for that specific purpose. so? they weren't the only ones that didn't want to play with the pointmod in clanwars[/quote] i suppose you're still assuming this vote of yours wasn't rigged like the previous ones were Quote: the majority did not want it - like i said i thought it was a douchey move on your part to go against what your playerbase wanted and as i've tried to explain to you so many many times, there's no avoiding the conclusion that anyone who wants a pointbugged ladder but isn't hosting one (that includes you and doesn't include me) is far more douchey than you assert me to be. that automatically beats your entire argument. Quote: Quote: if that was the majority of the league i would've closed it a very long time ago. so the majority wanted to use the pointmod and the only people that did not were simpee and his gang of bandits and terrorists i've never thought my case here was sufficiently weak that i needed to say i had "majority" on my side, never mind the "majority" of a community as generally dipshitted as clanwars.cc. if you're going to construct a strawman you could at least come up with something i might actually waste my time saying. Quote: Quote: would that be any kind of criticism if that were true? it's better than hosting it to satisfy the cheaters and pointpushers and compulsive liars you were so robustly defending i was defending the fact that the majority of your league wanted something and you sided over them on it firstly, again, it was never established that it was the majority at all. secondly, i kept trying to explain how thick the majority can be. thirdly, if you think my feelings will be hurt by you saying i'm the only person in the room who thinks one thing when everyone else thinks the opposite, you haven't been paying much attention to any of my renedebates. Quote: Quote: and in the dozens and dozens of posts and PMs you put forth on the subject, the one and only opinion you could bring yourself to express was the "you should listen to your playerbase" (or, as we've established, "you should obey these cheaters") the cheaters, along with the majority of clanwars.cc that voted No to using the pointmod again, don't use the word "vote" as if there was an election going on or something. there was a debate thread right there for opposition to the pointsfix - if people were too stupid or too cowardly to muster up anything there, don't act like the fault is mine. nobody ever said those anonymous votes are worth a damn at clanwars.cc, and that would be the case even if the anti-pointsfix crowd hadn't already rigging them in the past. Quote: the thinking is that there can't be clanwars without spoony that's odd, i've seen plenty of people on the anti-pointsfix crowd - clearshot, for example - say clanwars would be a lot better without spoony. they don't put it to the test, though. Quote: spoony does it right; he may be a douche but he does a good job from the people i've spoken to over the years that's what i got from it no one wants to go completely against you and try to do a better job than you no, no one can be bothered, and the rare few who do help out as renadmins get treated almost as badly as i do. call it what it is. Quote: all they wanted was you to not change the way the game played out after everyone in clanwars knew and fully understood how it worked all i wanted was for the league to run smoothly with the players respecting the rules and the admins, so i guess we don't often get what we want. the difference between the two is if any of the anti-pointsfix crowd could give enough of a shit about the community to set up their own ladder, their problem would be solved. Quote: Quote: but it's a bit ironic that you're thinking of granting them the presumption of innocence, given that you've spent several years under a delusion that they intentionally created with all the lies and rigged polls they set up. you're right, the polls brainwashed me what was i thinking?! yes i am right, yes the polls did brainwash you Quote: Quote: what would the jelly staff do if it turned out you had been cheating for years up to and including the present day? [color=skyblue]probably say Wow, liquid was cheating for years? how were we supposed to know AHAHAHA they'd remove me and carry on with business i don't understand why you threw that idea out there [/quote] it would be quite serious if it was true, wouldn't it? therefore it's serious when someone seriously asserts it's true, and therefore we shouldn't deal lightly with someone who - in all seriousness - lies through his teeth to make the assertion, with the express purpose of doing what damage he could to (in this hypothetical) the jelly community. Quote: Quote: as to the marching on EA, the only person who did that was roni, but it turned out he didn't think an individual community should be able to decide for itself whether to use the pointsfix or not either. i think he cleared that up when you accused him of that he wanted there to be a choice; that's why i signed his ren-e-petition uh no, he didn't want there to be a choice. there was nothing in the petition about having a choice. he openly opposed my right to use the pointsfix in my own league. Quote: Quote: that alone would have been enough; it would have been like me hacking into the jelly box to install the pointsfix. what would you have done had i done so? that's not the same thing it would be like you lying to jelly to get him to put the pointmod on the servers if you insist, so long as i had a history of cheating, pointpushing and trying to sabotage the jelly servers. Quote: Quote: do you think that was also the case in all the other times they were caught lying about stuff? i think that you're the bad guy here and used simpee and clearsh0t as your scapegoats [/quote] i thought i told you to try not to stupid
In the end, Spoony is always willing to say or do something that he know will cause controversy, so that he can have his fun in arguing. It always turns out the same anyway....the opposition realizes that Spoony isn't going to stop until he gets the final 10+ quote respond in, so they just stop posting in the thread altogether and let Spoony walking away thinking he won some big debate. Those who realize this the earliest and stop posting after his posts are the real smart ones tbh. There's only like 3 people who are ever going to actually read all of this anyway, 2 of them are the arguers, and one is a moderator....seriously, I think it's be best if you just walked away Liquid....god knows Spoony isn't going to.
i can see you're still bitter about losing that pointsfix debate on this forum. you were certainly angry at the time, but i thought you might have let it go by now. the fact someone outwitted you doesn't mean they actually did anything wrong. you only denigrate yourself by this pathetic wriggling out of admitting you were wrong about something. it's exactly the same as calling someone a cheater because they beat you.
Quote: a poll started by a player, without any admin endorsement. decisions at clanwars have never been determined by polls, and anonymous ones are obviously open to rigging... which the anti-pointsfix crowd had already been caught doing. even if the rape mob comprised of evil scapegoats simpee and clearsh0t had rigged that poll and voted 20 times each it wouldn't help the fact that people weren't voting for using the pointmod Quote: but even if every single player in the league besides me was adamantly anti-pointsfix, i'd still be right and you'd still be wrong here i don't understand why someone would want something that upsets everyone else that seems douchey to me; that's all i'm saying Quote: hooray, it's dawning on you how small the community was yeah, it wasn't that small it's smaller than people think it was but still Quote: then there's something seriously wrong with said eyes, since i certainly told them enough times that there was absolutely nothing stopping any of them hosting their own league. so what? because you say it makes it law? no one wanted to try and outdo you people have faith in what you do, but they didn't agree with changing the way renegade is scored after everyone had played with it that way for years Quote: yes, like they did when blkst0rm and i banned soul for pointpushing with photoshopped screenshots. they were so angry at that that they - again - tried to sabotage the league (by trying to get people banned on purpose). this is the kind of people we're talking about here, the "playerbase" (cheaters) you want me to "listen to" (obey) who is they? you make it sound like the majority of clanwars.cc went against you and blkst0rm and you're calling them cheaters you're portraying cw.cc as a bunch of sabotaging cheaters Quote: seriously, stop trying to euphemise... you aren't any good at it ur mam Quote: you seemed very sure at the time. i kept pointing out that the entirety of the people you wanted me to "listen to" were cheaters, pointpushers etc who had a long habit of not "listening" to the, y'know, rules and stuff. i kept pointing out that the "majority" of clanwars have a demonstrable track record of extraordinary stupidity. again, no reaction. i said the last time it was spoony vs the entire clanwars community on an issue, the clanwars community was so catastrophically wrong that if they'd been listened to, it probably would've resulted in the entire shutdown of the league. EVEN THAT couldn't provoke the slightest reaction from you. no, the only thing on your mind was "listen to the playerbase" (obey the cheaters) i didn't see anyone supporting you it looked like spoony vs. the world you labeled the world as cheaters and baby seal killers, but what else was there? you had whiskey on your side, but people felt he was only on your side because he was biased as your right hand man i didn't get the chance to go from person to person with every cw.cc member and interview them and get their thoughts on the issue; perhaps i should have Quote: sure, cheating and be punished if it's caught... what if it isn't caught? then it's still cheating if a tree falls in the middle of the woods and no one is around... does it make a sound? Quote: would you think me less of a "douche" if i did? sure; if it's your league and people change it into something you don't want without your permission you should do something about it you don't have to listen to the majority of your league and use their preferred point system, but that just may make you a douchebag Quote: don't be stupid. i know you're probably a bit embarrassed at who you were so enthusiastically supporting, but don't be stupid. they aren't bad people, it's a shame you'll never get to know them i don't approve of underhanded tactics and what you accuse them of doing, but i don't hate them for it not all of clanwars.cc rigged polls and did similar things like that, but am i an idiot for supporting them as well? Quote: there's no need to make excuses for these people. you can read their own excuses. you may have noticed me directly asking people like orca and simpee why they don't host a pointbugged ladder since they're the ones who think there should be one. simpee said he couldn't be bothered (the honesty came as quite a surprise), orca said he would not lower himself to putting any money or time into running anything for renegade. it might be more than simpee knows or is capable of, and orca is a criminal from the island of australia all of the clanwars.cc players that would have enjoyed an original points ladder probably aren't all like orca; you assume the worst in people Quote: the entire community was firmly on the side of the guy who pointpushed with photoshopped screenshots and lied to everyone for about a week to try to get away with it (including his own clan, probably the worst thing you can do in the clan world). everyone was hailing him as a hero and flaming the shit out of me for banning him. thanks to how unbelievably low the community had sunk, there was an imminent danger of the renegade league being shut down altogether by the site owners purely because of the embarrassment the renegade portion of the site was causing. i can't fault CLAN WARS for looking at the clanwars renegade forums at the time and wondering why he was spending so much as a cent on such an unbelievably fucked up community. clanwars.cc came to a screeching halt after you banned simpee and clear was it justified in your eyes? i'm almost certain of that does the majority of cw.cc agree with it? who knows, probably not did that lead to the league going dead? yes you removed the top clan's top 2 players the clan people were striving to beat was reduced to nothing you took that away and there was nothing to play for i don't know what happened after soul was not allowed to play, but people were biased in that case because he obviously cared a lot about clanwars a little bit too much, if he felt the need to pointpush in order to get ahead i find it hard to believe that clanwars was going to cut renegade off of the site due to that, but i'll take your word on it that's quite strange Quote: though several rules had to be made to deal with the problems the bug caused... harv blocking, oh god not that what else? and were these rules so terrible that they ruined clanwars? obviously not, if people wanted to keep using the original points anyways Quote: sad to hear you were completely taken in by the lies and manipulations of a group of cheaters, but you didn't believe spoony. spoony made the claim several times but never expanded on it, so there was nothing to get from it the cheaters and rapists didn't cover it either, so what was i supposed to think? nobody tells me nothin! Quote: completely unsuccessfully. if every clanwars.cc player has the same view as orca then you're correct i don't think that's true Quote: that doesn't have quite the same kick, though, does it? doesn't actually sound as if i've done anything wrong if you put it that way, does it? so that's no good. you went against what your players wanted you neglected to side with them you dismissed their wishes and went with what you wanted it all sounds similar once again i'm sorry, my mistake Quote: well, at clanwars it matters whether you actually have a fucking clue what you're talking about, not whether you can find four people who agree with you. that's how rules are decided, and i remind you that not a single person on the anti-pointsfix side had a fucking clue what they were talking about. hey, i recall you saying this several dozen times a lot of people don't enjoy debating on forums, and i'm sure you're not one of those people it seems shitty to the people that may have wanted to use the original points but didn't feel like addressing it because you would have picked their posts apart and made them feel stupid the same goes for any kind of debate you have in there maybe they did have a clue and you just dismissed it - maybe some of them would still like to use the original points if a choice were given who knows at this point Quote: no, i said that what he said was stupid, because it was. he said it made sense for ramjets to get bucketloads of points off tanks because they did do damage after all, albeit a very very small amount of damage. i think his point was that havocs had a way to pay for themselves or earn their keep since they were the 1000 character the problem with that is what about the mendozas and mobiuses? they have to get way up close and enter far more danger raveshaws and pics have a harder time than havocs but they have it easier than the volt rifle guys at least doesn't matter anyways lol Quote: you're assuming that all the No votes were different people, are you? that's generous of you, given the fact the anti-pointsfix crowd had already established the practice of rigging polls and lying about the results. so because certain people rigged polls in the past this one without a doubt most certainly must have been rigged? that would explain why there were more votes in favor of not using the pointmod but it doesn't explain the lack of support for using the pointmod Quote: the sad part is i thought i'd always made it clear that those polls are worthless to me in deciding league policy. again, if it had been 99% no and 1% yes with me being the 1%, it wouldn't have changed the fact that nobody in the 99% had a fucking clue what they were talking about and were caught lying innumerable times, and it wouldn't change the fact that any of those 99% could set up a pointbugged ladder for themselves if any of them could actually give a shit about the community. just because someone doesn't up and leave your community and start their own or make a ladder for original point games doesn't mean they don't give a shit about the community the fact that they're there at all should say something not everyone has it in them to go off and make their own ladder or league most people wouldn't even know how either Quote: again, do yourself a favour of don't lie, they were the entirety of the opposition. it doesn't matter how many No votes there were, nobody said it did. it showed that people weren't supporting your choice but you were going with it anyways the opposition was everyone that didn't support using the pointmod in clanwars, which was apparently everyone aside from you and whiskey seems douchey but Hey, it's your league, run it how you want to you seem to know what you're doing it's just hibernating for now Quote: wow, what's with the lying? i went to extraordinary lengths to give everyone the chance to join the "equation", but the equation is a debate, not a vote. you don't change my mind on a rule by saying here are five people who agree with me, you change my mind on a rule by saying here's why the rule is wrong and why this alternative would be right. i gave everyone ample opportunity to do that, they tried, they catastrophically failed. and yet despite their abject failure to convince me that they ought to have a pointbugged ladder, nothing ever stopped them setting their own one up. but no, apparently i've got to do it for him. jesus, listen to what an idiot you're being just because people didn't post doesn't mean they wouldn't have preferred using the original points to the pointmod in clanwars i'm listening but i don't hear it just because they (the majority of cw.cc at that time) could not out-debate you on why they liked the original points over the pointmod and why it should be used doesn't mean you can't use it, especially if it makes them happy would it be a bad thing if your playerbase was happy with what you were doing? i don't think so but i'm not Spoony Quote: not all, probably not even a majority, but it's a higher proportion than i'd like really? because you make it sound like they're everywhere, climbing in your windows and snatching your people up Quote: i suppose you're still assuming this vote of yours wasn't rigged like the previous ones were some polls in the history of cw.cc were rigged - this means that all of them were rigged correct? Quote: and as i've tried to explain to you so many many times, there's no avoiding the conclusion that anyone who wants a pointbugged ladder but isn't hosting one (that includes you and doesn't include me) is far more douchey than you assert me to be. that automatically beats your entire argument. you have a system that works, and people know that you are clanwars to them so they come to you they're douchebags because they don't try to do what you're doing? they disagree with the lack of an original renegade points ladder but are douchebags because they don't host their own? not everyone knows how to go about doing such a thing or is capable of it i myself have no idea what goes into it you're trying to say that they're douchebags for asking you to change what you're doing to cater to them i'm saying you're a douchebag when literally everyone was asking you and you still said no had someone else done it and it worked it would have been you and whiskey left there because you two wanted the pointmod Quote: i've never thought my case here was sufficiently weak that i needed to say i had "majority" on my side, never mind the "majority" of a community as generally dipshitted as clanwars.cc. if you're going to construct a strawman you could at least come up with something i might actually waste my time saying. i'm guessing as to what you were trying to hint at earlier you never actually said you had the majority on your side, but you were suggesting that the original-points fans were not the majority it can only go one way, either one side is or isn't the majority fuck strawmen, make a snowman instead Quote: firstly, again, it was never established that it was the majority at all. secondly, i kept trying to explain how thick the majority can be. thirdly, if you think my feelings will be hurt by you saying i'm the only person in the room who thinks one thing when everyone else thinks the opposite, you haven't been paying much attention to any of my renedebates. if it were you vs. literally everyone in cw.cc on the issue i think it makes you a douchebag to not do what they would prefer even if they're all slobbering idiots and have no idea what they're talking about that or you can tell them to go make their own league, and in the offchance they did yours would sit empty as it is currently Free simpee and clearsh0t!!111 Quote: again, don't use the word "vote" as if there was an election going on or something. there was a debate thread right there for opposition to the pointsfix - if people were too stupid or too cowardly to muster up anything there, don't act like the fault is mine. nobody ever said those anonymous votes are worth a damn at clanwars.cc, and that would be the case even if the anti-pointsfix crowd hadn't already rigging them in the past. you've decided that because people didn't speak up that they didn't support it did people speak in defense of the pointmod? the people that spoke up against it were people you condemned as murderers and rapists and why did you crap on zell, he's a good guy Quote: that's odd, i've seen plenty of people on the anti-pointsfix crowd - clearshot, for example - say clanwars would be a lot better without spoony. history has failed to show that in clear's opinion maybe you're bad for the league if clearsh0t were everyone then i'd have to agree with you though that's not the case Quote: they don't put it to the test, though. i don't think clanwars would work now if someone else tried to do them, you're the established person though i agree, no one has thoroughly tested it Quote: no, no one can be bothered, and the rare few who do help out as renadmins get treated almost as badly as i do. call it what it is. it's clanwars ahahahaha gud 1 me Quote: all i wanted was for the league to run smoothly with the players respecting the rules and the admins, so i guess we don't often get what we want. the difference between the two is if any of the anti-pointsfix crowd could give enough of a shit about the community to set up their own ladder, their problem would be solved. you may be expecting too much in an environment that competitive but hey, what do i know, i'm no clanwars admin or clanwars player perhaps them having their own original points ladder would have solved that problem, but i can see it causing more Quote: yes i am right, yes the polls did brainwash you sad face though i don't actually know which polls you're talking about, all i know of is the one and i covered that above Quote: it would be quite serious if it was true, wouldn't it? therefore it's serious when someone seriously asserts it's true, and therefore we shouldn't deal lightly with someone who - in all seriousness - lies through his teeth to make the assertion, with the express purpose of doing what damage he could to (in this hypothetical) the jelly community. sure i still don't get it though; what's this the equivalent of? you allowing pointpushing or cheating? you seemed to have an easy time diffusing it so it's not a big deal in my eyes Quote: uh no, he didn't want there to be a choice. there was nothing in the petition about having a choice. he openly opposed my right to use the pointsfix in my own league. in the petition he was saying he didn't want it to be a choice, but later on he had changed his stance you asked him how he wanted there to be a choice but wanted the choice to be no in your league something about picking any color, as long as it's black Quote: if you insist, so long as i had a history of cheating, pointpushing and trying to sabotage the jelly servers. maybe you do, and you're just good at getting away with it Quote: i thought i told you to try not to stupid derp?
A moderator will split this topic soon, I hope. Goztow and I can't, we don't have mod rights in this forum, for good reasons.
liquidv2 wrote on Sat, 30 October 2010 00:00 Quote: a poll started by a player, without any admin endorsement. decisions at clanwars have never been determined by polls, and anonymous ones are obviously open to rigging... which the anti-pointsfix crowd had already been caught doing. even if the rape mob comprised of evil scapegoats simpee and clearsh0t had rigged that poll and voted 20 times each it wouldn't help the fact that people weren't voting for using the pointmod it's interesting you're immovably focused on this part of the statement as opposed to either of the two more important parts, 1: the anti-pointsfix crowd had already been caught rigging these polls, 2: nobody important at clanwars ever said that poll was worth a damn thing, whereas it was made clear that the debate thread was central in determining policy. Quote: Quote: but even if every single player in the league besides me was adamantly anti-pointsfix, i'd still be right and you'd still be wrong here i don't understand why someone would want something that upsets everyone else that seems douchey to me; that's all i'm saying this is because you're a fucking idiot who can't or won't understand a really simple but really crucial point. the longer your list is of people who want a pointsbugged ladder, the sadder it is that not a single one of them could give enough of a shit to provide one themselves. you keep calling me a douche for running the league the way i think it should go... how stupid are you? why have you never called EVERYBODY ELSE ON RENEGADE a douche for not giving enough of a shit to provide a league at all? you really are thick if this has never occurred to you, even if i hadn't carefully tried to spell it out to your dumb ass over and over and over and over again. Quote: Quote: then there's something seriously wrong with said eyes, since i certainly told them enough times that there was absolutely nothing stopping any of them hosting their own league. so what? because you say it makes it law? i'd rather call it a fact than a law. Quote: no one wanted to try and outdo you people have faith in what you do, but they didn't agree with changing the way renegade is scored after everyone had played with it that way for years again, this is a really sad attempt to shift the fault. the reason nobody other than me hosted a league is because nobody could give a shit about the clan community. even when they admit to not being able to care enough - as simpee said - or even when they say that they would not lower themselves to hosting something for renegade - as orca said - you seem intent on thinking that what's easily explained by apathy and selfishness is actually caused by something noble. Quote: Quote: yes, like they did when blkst0rm and i banned soul for pointpushing with photoshopped screenshots. they were so angry at that that they - again - tried to sabotage the league (by trying to get people banned on purpose). this is the kind of people we're talking about here, the "playerbase" (cheaters) you want me to "listen to" (obey) who is they? you make it sound like the majority of clanwars.cc went against you and blkst0rm and you're calling them cheaters you're portraying cw.cc as a bunch of sabotaging cheaters i know you're probably having a hard time grasping the unbelievably pathetic low to which the clanwars.cc community sunk during the Soul episode, and i understand that. still, everything i've said about it is true. it was me and blkst0rm vs the entire clanwars community on an issue, we were dead right and they were dead wrong. this is a much sharper divide than the pointsfix poll you're talking about. and they were so catastrophically wrong that if they'd been "listened to" (obeyed), there's a very real chance the entire league would have been shut down. and, as i've said, because they weren't obeyed they actively tried to sabotage the league by using an exploit to get as many people banned as possible. getting the entire league banned seemed preferable to them than allowing spoony and blkst0rm to ban someone who was pointpushing and photoshopping screenshots. remember this when you talk about how it's spoony vs everyone else at clanwars, cos whenever this happens i have a history of being right and they have a history of being crashingly wrong. Quote: Quote: you seemed very sure at the time. i kept pointing out that the entirety of the people you wanted me to "listen to" were cheaters, pointpushers etc who had a long habit of not "listening" to the, y'know, rules and stuff. i kept pointing out that the "majority" of clanwars have a demonstrable track record of extraordinary stupidity. again, no reaction. i said the last time it was spoony vs the entire clanwars community on an issue, the clanwars community was so catastrophically wrong that if they'd been listened to, it probably would've resulted in the entire shutdown of the league. EVEN THAT couldn't provoke the slightest reaction from you. no, the only thing on your mind was "listen to the playerbase" (obey the cheaters) i didn't see anyone supporting you it looked like spoony vs. the world you labeled the world as cheaters and baby seal killers, but what else was there? you had whiskey on your side, but people felt he was only on your side because he was biased as your right hand man i didn't get the chance to go from person to person with every cw.cc member and interview them and get their thoughts on the issue; perhaps i should have i've purposely left my original statement in the quote box, so everyone can see the point i made illustrated again by your reply to it. look at the point i made, about how i just can't get you to show the slightest reaction to incredibly important things, and yet all you can focus on is counting how many people are on which side. still, i'll answer your statements Quote: i didn't see anyone supporting you it looked like spoony vs. the world then perhaps you can explain the Yes and Don't Care votes to the poll, given the fact that added together they outnumbered the No votes (and also given the fact that I didn't waste my time voting at all). we're being very generous and assuming that the anti-pointsfix crowd DIDN'T rig that poll, which would make a change. the result would be the majority either liking it or not minding it. of course, all that would assume that i could give a shit about those anonymous polls, and i think i've made it clear by now that i don't, but if it's the only thing that matters to you then how embarrassing for you that it's bullshit. Quote: you had whiskey on your side, but people felt he was only on your side because he was biased as your right hand man i would think it sad you fell for that lie, but you fell for all the others. whiskey was originally against the pointsfix, then changed his mind. the anti-pointsfix crowd were simply intolerant of anyone who disagreed with them (just look at the pathetic way they've continually treated me). there'd just HAVE to be some other explanation for whiskey's opinion than "he thinks this is a good thing for the league" Quote: i didn't get the chance to go from person to person with every cw.cc member and interview them and get their thoughts on the issue; perhaps i should have i certainly gave them every opportunity. Quote: Quote: would you think me less of a "douche" if i did? sure; if it's your league and people change it into something you don't want without your permission you should do something about it you don't have to listen to the majority of your league and use their preferred point system, but that just may make you a douchebag much, much less of a douchebag than you, as i've tried over and over and over again to explain Quote: Quote: don't be stupid. i know you're probably a bit embarrassed at who you were so enthusiastically supporting, but don't be stupid. they aren't bad people, it's a shame you'll never get to know them i don't approve of underhanded tactics and what you accuse them of doing, but i don't hate them for it consider how many times you've called me a douche for running the league in the best way i can, and then look at your own wheedling excuses for why you haven't said anything bad about some extraordinarily fucked up behaviour from the people you've been defending. Quote: not all of clanwars.cc rigged polls and did similar things like that, but am i an idiot for supporting them as well? yes, since at no point from the beginning of the episode until now has it been demonstrated that they even existed Quote: Quote: there's no need to make excuses for these people. you can read their own excuses. you may have noticed me directly asking people like orca and simpee why they don't host a pointbugged ladder since they're the ones who think there should be one. simpee said he couldn't be bothered (the honesty came as quite a surprise), orca said he would not lower himself to putting any money or time into running anything for renegade. it might be more than simpee knows or is capable of you surely realise that there was a point in time at which i went from not being a clanwars admin to being a clanwars admin, and therefore a point in time when i was a clanwars admin who had zero practical experience. Quote: and orca is a criminal from the island of australia all of the clanwars.cc players that would have enjoyed an original points ladder probably aren't all like orca; you assume the worst in people no assumptions are necessary, you can just look at the facts. i attempted to recruit for renadmins many times, and the overwhelming majority of the community either didn't apply or did apply and turned out not be diligent enough to spend the very small amount of time it takes to do the AR's. i can count on one hand the number of people from the clanwars community who turned out to be good admins willing to put the effort in. i'm also more aware than most of the extraordinarily pathetic way the clanwars.cc community treats the admins; most of your moderators would quit within a week or so. Quote: Quote: the entire community was firmly on the side of the guy who pointpushed with photoshopped screenshots and lied to everyone for about a week to try to get away with it (including his own clan, probably the worst thing you can do in the clan world). everyone was hailing him as a hero and flaming the shit out of me for banning him. thanks to how unbelievably low the community had sunk, there was an imminent danger of the renegade league being shut down altogether by the site owners purely because of the embarrassment the renegade portion of the site was causing. i can't fault CLAN WARS for looking at the clanwars renegade forums at the time and wondering why he was spending so much as a cent on such an unbelievably fucked up community. clanwars.cc came to a screeching halt after you banned simpee and clear was it justified in your eyes? i'm almost certain of that does the majority of cw.cc agree with it? who knows, probably not did that lead to the league going dead? yes this is just plain wrong. clanwars died when *i* stopped playing, and i stopped playing because i eventually reached the point at which the unbelievably pathetic nature of the clanwars.cc community made me not want to spend any more effort on them (putting me down to the same level as everyone else who didn't run a league for them) Quote: i don't know what happened after soul was not allowed to play, but people were biased in that case because he obviously cared a lot about clanwars a little bit too much, if he felt the need to pointpush in order to get ahead and the need to lie to everybody for about a week when he was under investigation, including his own clan. i'd call lying to your own clan about the worst thing you can do in the clan world, and that wasn't even the first time he'd pointpushed. Quote: i find it hard to believe that clanwars was going to cut renegade off of the site due to that, but i'll take your word on it that's quite strange it's not strange at all, why would someone continue to spend their resources for such a cesspool of a community? Quote: Quote: though several rules had to be made to deal with the problems the bug caused... harv blocking, oh god not that what else? that thing i kept telling you about some maps being blatantly unfair, so unfair that certain players would leave if they got the bad side. then these exact same people later turn up crying about how they thing mesa is unfair with the pointsfix, it's enough to make a cat laugh Quote: Quote: that doesn't have quite the same kick, though, does it? doesn't actually sound as if i've done anything wrong if you put it that way, does it? so that's no good. you went against what your players wanted you neglected to side with them you dismissed their wishes and went with what you wanted it all sounds similar once again i'm sorry, my mistake apology accepted. you realise that everything you just said could be said about the soul episode? Quote: hey, i recall you saying this several dozen times a lot of people don't enjoy debating on forums, and i'm sure you're not one of those people it seems shitty to the people that may have wanted to use the original points but didn't feel like addressing it because you would have picked their posts apart and made them feel stupid let's be clear that in being so encouraging of debate on the subject i was doing the community yet another favour they didn't deserve. the fact that they either couldn't say why their point bug would be better for the league's fairness than the original renegade points system, or that they were too scared of losing an argument if they had said so (jesus, how pathetic is that) is all on them. it's not a criticism to say that i was so diligent in reading everything everybody said about the issue and responding to every single post; you can make it sound bad but it isn't. Quote: Quote: no, i said that what he said was stupid, because it was. he said it made sense for ramjets to get bucketloads of points off tanks because they did do damage after all, albeit a very very small amount of damage. i think his point was that havocs had a way to pay for themselves or earn their keep since they were the 1000 character no, it wasn't. i kept saying that it was bollock-brainedly stupid to get points when you're doing fuck all damage; he said actually yes havocs do do damage, just not very much, and that explains why they get such massive points. Quote: Quote: you're assuming that all the No votes were different people, are you? that's generous of you, given the fact the anti-pointsfix crowd had already established the practice of rigging polls and lying about the results. so because certain people rigged polls in the past this one without a doubt most certainly must have been rigged? i'm glad that after mentioning these sort of tactics again and again and again, you've finally managed to acknowledge it. still, i wouldn't say that. you're the one putting all your faith in that poll thread; i thought i'd made it clear by now that i couldn't give a shit about it. [quote]that would explain why there were more votes in favor of not using the pointmod but it doesn't explain the lack of support for using the pointmod[/color] and yet even with your dumbass poll thread, you can add up the Yes and the Don't Mind Either Way votes to outnumber the Nos. but like i said, my argument never relied on counting the number of people who agreed with me; it's not so weak as yours. Quote: just because someone doesn't up and leave your community and start their own or make a ladder for original point games doesn't mean they don't give a shit about the community yes, it does. the one and only person from clanwars.cc who actually did do what i kept suggesting was whiskey, and he got no end of contempt for doing so. Quote: the fact that they're there at all should say something ...that they like playing clanwars? that doesn't demonstrate a generous nature. Quote: not everyone has it in them to go off and make their own ladder or league most people wouldn't even know how either i know nothing about coding at all, never stopped me. i've always found there to be two kinds of people in this world, people who get the fucking job done whatever the obstacles, and people who come back to you with excuses for why they didn't do it. i might add that i offered several times to sell people a league and help them set it up. Quote: just because people didn't post doesn't mean they wouldn't have preferred using the original points to the pointmod in clanwars if they don't even dare say so in the debate thread that's specifically there for the purpose, i don't think i can persuade myself to do what they want. Quote: just because they (the majority of cw.cc at that time) could not out-debate you on why they liked the original points over the pointmod and why it should be used doesn't mean you can't use it, especially if it makes them happy would it be a bad thing if your playerbase was happy with what you were doing? i don't think so but i'm not Spoony you're right about one thing, you're not me. you know fuck all about how to run a ladder, and you've never shown that you care enough about the clan community to put the effort into trying. yes, if nobody can explain why X is better than Y for a rule, nor can anybody refute my detailed assertions on why Y is better than X, we're going with Y and if this makes cheaters and compulsive liars angry, so much the better. if the league becoming more fair has the added effect of angering people who prefer the game not to be fair, this is a bonus rather than a drawback. Quote: Quote: i suppose you're still assuming this vote of yours wasn't rigged like the previous ones were some polls in the history of cw.cc were rigged - this means that all of them were rigged correct? again, anyone can see i did not say that. i suppose it's easier for you to pretend i said something i never said, than to face your own stupidity in placing all your faith in a poll by and for people who'd already proven their willingness to rig them. my position, by contrast, is very simple and has always been consistent: those polls are worth jack shit to me and always were. debate is what matters. if people lose the debate then i'm not likely to do what they say; and if people are too scared to participate in the debate for fear of losing (my god, how sad is that) then i'm even less likely to do what they say. Quote: they're douchebags because they don't try to do what you're doing? they disagree with the lack of an original renegade points ladder but are douchebags because they don't host their own? not everyone knows how to go about doing such a thing or is capable of it i myself have no idea what goes into it been over this Quote: you're trying to say that they're douchebags for asking you to change what you're doing to cater to them you're better than this... deal with what i actually say, don't lower yourself into pretending i said things i obviously did not say. Quote: i'm saying you're a douchebag when literally everyone was asking you and you still said no and yet i'd be far less of a douchebag than everyone who wanted a pointbugged ladder and couldn't be bothered hosting one, and there's nothing you can say that'll change that. do yourself a favour, just admit you've lost this debate. there is no overcoming that argument. Quote: had someone else done it and it worked it would have been you and whiskey left there because you two wanted the pointmod then what a pity that in all the overwhelming majority that supposedly wanted the point bug, not a single one could give enough of a shit to make that happen. they couldn't even pull together and do it. meanwhile the people who actually DID deliver the goods - me and whiskey - have gotten nothing but contempt for doing so. Quote: Quote: i've never thought my case here was sufficiently weak that i needed to say i had "majority" on my side, never mind the "majority" of a community as generally dipshitted as clanwars.cc. if you're going to construct a strawman you could at least come up with something i might actually waste my time saying. i'm guessing as to what you were trying to hint at earlier you never actually said you had the majority on your side, but you were suggesting that the original-points fans were not the majority it can only go one way, either one side is or isn't the majority if you still haven't figured out by now that i couldn't give a shit which side of the argument majority is on, i don't think you ever will Quote: if it were you vs. literally everyone in cw.cc on the issue i think it makes you a douchebag to not do what they would prefer no, it doesn't. i'm doing them a favour by hosting them a league at all; they have no reason to expect to be run the way they like. Quote: even if they're all slobbering idiots and have no idea what they're talking about this sentence is two words too long. Quote: that or you can tell them to go make their own league, and in the offchance they did yours would sit empty as it is currently Free simpee and clearsh0t!!111 oh dear, you're still under the impression that it was simpee and clearshot not playing any more than killed the league, as opposed to me not playing any more. if the events of the time when they were banned didn't convince you of the reality, how about when a new admin tried to revitalise the league recently with simpee and clearshot unbanned? i didn't play, despite being asked to all the time... and the league didn't fire up. the admin even gave people votes and choices on whether to use the point bug or not, and the league didn't fire up. ouch. Quote: you've decided that because people didn't speak up that they didn't support it what a dumb thing to say Quote: did people speak in defense of the pointmod? nobody needed to, i was doing a perfectly good job winning the argument despite it being 1v7 or whatever. Quote: the people that spoke up against it were people you condemned as murderers and rapists i know you don't want to admit the simple fact that everyone who did speak up against it in the thread were cheaters and pointpushers and rulebreakers and compulsive liars, but it would be better if you just faced that simple fact. Quote: and why did you crap on zell, he's a good guy what i said about him was true. Quote: Quote: all i wanted was for the league to run smoothly with the players respecting the rules and the admins, so i guess we don't often get what we want. the difference between the two is if any of the anti-pointsfix crowd could give enough of a shit about the community to set up their own ladder, their problem would be solved. you may be expecting too much in an environment that competitive but hey, what do i know, i'm no clanwars admin or clanwars player perhaps them having their own original points ladder would have solved that problem, but i can see it causing more Quote: but hey, what do i know, i'm no clanwars admin you're dangerously close to a good point there Quote: Quote: it would be quite serious if it was true, wouldn't it? therefore it's serious when someone seriously asserts it's true, and therefore we shouldn't deal lightly with someone who - in all seriousness - lies through his teeth to make the assertion, with the express purpose of doing what damage he could to (in this hypothetical) the jelly community. sure i still don't get it though; what's this the equivalent of? you allowing pointpushing or cheating? no, clear and simpee on the jelly forum.
I really don't see how it is off topic... so I don't know why I'd need to split it.
Goztow wrote on Sat, 30 October 2010 10:33 I really don't see how it is off topic... so I don't know why I'd need to split it. Not necessarily off topic, but it's basically a big gap of useless in the thread, because nobody is going to read that wall of text.
The topic started becoming about the revisitng of the points fix debate and the arguements that have already been had about it. The thread was supposed to be about the ladder.
reborn wrote on Sat, 30 October 2010 19:44 The topic started becoming about the revisitng of the points fix debate and the arguements that have already been had about it. The thread was supposed to be about the ladder. This, now with the addition of CW.cc drama. Oh, and I agree with what HaTe said.
it's a disagreement between myself and spoony, i'm trying to better understand him the ladder got lost somewhere on the first page, and i'd like to get back to it why are goztow and carrier not mods in this section? "with good reason" you say? i disagree this topic is less than a page long, the rest is shenanigans
is there a point in posting this "shenanigans" Liquid? I'd really like to know.
hes fighting for justice and all things fair
i'm trying to understand the creature known as Spoony it's difficult for me because he's severely british Toggle Spoiler Quote: it's interesting you're immovably focused on this part of the statement as opposed to either of the two more important parts, 1: the anti-pointsfix crowd had already been caught rigging these polls, 2: nobody important at clanwars ever said that poll was worth a damn thing, whereas it was made clear that the debate thread was central in determining policy. what i still can't understand is why you would do something that everyone disagreed with for example the soul case, had he just been allowed to play then clanwars.cc wouldn't have been breathing down your neck about the Renegade league Quote: this is because you're a fucking idiot who can't or won't understand a really simple but really crucial point. you don't care whether or not your playerbase is happy you care about what you'd rather have based on what you think is right, even if that means hosting an empty league what do you think i don't understand? Quote: the longer your list is of people who want a pointsbugged ladder, the sadder it is that not a single one of them could give enough of a shit to provide one themselves. you keep calling me a douche for running the league the way i think it should go... how stupid are you? why have you never called EVERYBODY ELSE ON RENEGADE a douche for not giving enough of a shit to provide a league at all? you really are thick if this has never occurred to you, even if i hadn't carefully tried to spell it out to your dumb ass over and over and over and over again. you're rude! they're douchebags because they would rather you run the original points than the pointmod in your league? Quote: i'd rather call it a fact than a law. why is everything you say fact? Quote: again, this is a really sad attempt to shift the fault. the reason nobody other than me hosted a league is because nobody could give a shit about the clan community. even when they admit to not being able to care enough - as simpee said - or even when they say that they would not lower themselves to hosting something for renegade - as orca said - you seem intent on thinking that what's easily explained by apathy and selfishness is actually caused by something noble. if that's the way it actually was then i'd agree with you i just have a very hard time believing that everyone in cw.cc was like that and i think that had that been the case you wouldn't have hosted it at all Quote: i know you're probably having a hard time grasping the unbelievably pathetic low to which the clanwars.cc community sunk during the Soul episode, and i understand that. still, everything i've said about it is true. it was me and blkst0rm vs the entire clanwars community on an issue, we were dead right and they were dead wrong. this is a much sharper divide than the pointsfix poll you're talking about. and they were so catastrophically wrong that if they'd been "listened to" (obeyed), there's a very real chance the entire league would have been shut down. and, as i've said, because they weren't obeyed they actively tried to sabotage the league by using an exploit to get as many people banned as possible. getting the entire league banned seemed preferable to them than allowing spoony and blkst0rm to ban someone who was pointpushing and photoshopping screenshots. remember this when you talk about how it's spoony vs everyone else at clanwars, cos whenever this happens i have a history of being right and they have a history of being crashingly wrong. would it have been the end of the world had you let the clanwars players play with their pointpushing best friend and avoided the whole scenario altogether? you fought the good fight but was it worth it? Quote: i've purposely left my original statement in the quote box, so everyone can see the point i made illustrated again by your reply to it. look at the point i made, about how i just can't get you to show the slightest reaction to incredibly important things, and yet all you can focus on is counting how many people are on which side. it's because i don't believe you when you say the only people against using the pointmod in clanwars were simpee and his named band of rapist cheaters Quote: then perhaps you can explain the Yes and Don't Care votes to the poll, given the fact that added together they outnumbered the No votes (and also given the fact that I didn't waste my time voting at all). we're being very generous and assuming that the anti-pointsfix crowd DIDN'T rig that poll, which would make a change. the result would be the majority either liking it or not minding it. hmm? Quote: i would think it sad you fell for that lie, but you fell for all the others. i didn't think either way about whether whiskey liked the pointmod or not, i just understood how they could be correct Quote: whiskey was originally against the pointsfix, then changed his mind. the anti-pointsfix crowd were simply intolerant of anyone who disagreed with them (just look at the pathetic way they've continually treated me). there'd just HAVE to be some other explanation for whiskey's opinion than "he thinks this is a good thing for the league" i understand that that's why i said it could have gone either way, i didn't know for sure Quote: i certainly gave them every opportunity. if every clanwars.cc member enjoyed openly engaging in debates on the forums it would have worked more the way you'd intended it to Quote: much, much less of a douchebag than you, as i've tried over and over and over again to explain how rude! if i ran a league and everyone was telling me one thing i'd more likely than not side with them though if what you tell me is true it's further from everyone than i thought and i may be mistaken Quote: consider how many times you've called me a douche for running the league in the best way i can, and then look at your own wheedling excuses for why you haven't said anything bad about some extraordinarily fucked up behaviour from the people you've been defending. you've said enough about them yourself, and they haven't drawn any hate from me i don't agree with how they did things but i wasn't there for any of it had i been i'd probably say the same thing you are Quote: yes, since at no point from the beginning of the episode until now has it been demonstrated that they even existed clanwars.cc members that didn't rig polls? i'm sure they existed Quote: you surely realise that there was a point in time at which i went from not being a clanwars admin to being a clanwars admin, and therefore a point in time when i was a clanwars admin who had zero practical experience. it's because you wrote strategy guides for maps like Field Quote: no assumptions are necessary, you can just look at the facts. i attempted to recruit for renadmins many times, and the overwhelming majority of the community either didn't apply or did apply and turned out not be diligent enough to spend the very small amount of time it takes to do the AR's. i can count on one hand the number of people from the clanwars community who turned out to be good admins willing to put the effort in. i'm also more aware than most of the extraordinarily pathetic way the clanwars.cc community treats the admins; most of your moderators would quit within a week or so. most of my moderators probably wouldn't even want to be in that environment because they're from a public community but that's probably true Quote: this is just plain wrong. clanwars died when *i* stopped playing, and i stopped playing because i eventually reached the point at which the unbelievably pathetic nature of the clanwars.cc community made me not want to spend any more effort on them (putting me down to the same level as everyone else who didn't run a league for them) i think it would have been swell of you to keep doing it, despite their abuse, because it was the right thing at least something you could honestly argue was the right thing, and eventually they would have realized it and some would have it in them to thank you you would have been a Renesaint Quote: and the need to lie to everybody for about a week when he was under investigation, including his own clan. i'd call lying to your own clan about the worst thing you can do in the clan world, and that wasn't even the first time he'd pointpushed. yet they still loved and forgave him if it's an unforgivable sin why did they almost unanimously want him allowed back in? Quote: it's not strange at all, why would someone continue to spend their resources for such a cesspool of a community? that line made me laugh it doesn't seem like such a cesspool to me, lots of people enjoyed the years they spent there and the fun they had i'm sure it had low points but i don't think they would have been reason enough to close it down, based on what i've heard and seen then again IM STILL NO CW.CC ADMIN SO IDK Quote: that thing i kept telling you about some maps being blatantly unfair, so unfair that certain players would leave if they got the bad side. aren't there still some maps like that with the pointmod on? like, say, mesa Quote: then these exact same people later turn up crying about how they think mesa is unfair with the pointsfix, it's enough to make a cat laugh why wouldn't you just play simpee then and shut him up, your cat would have been laffin Quote: apology accepted. you realise that everything you just said could be said about the soul episode? sure, but had you just said Ok you guys are stupid, but at least you've accepted it so we're allowing this pointpushing baby-rapist scumbag Soul to play Quote: let's be clear that in being so encouraging of debate on the subject i was doing the community yet another favour they didn't deserve. the fact that they either couldn't say why their point bug would be better for the league's fairness than the original renegade points system, or that they were too scared of losing an argument if they had said so (jesus, how pathetic is that) is all on them. it's not a criticism to say that i was so diligent in reading everything everybody said about the issue and responding to every single post; you can make it sound bad but it isn't. clanwars people are overly competitive, and a lot of them take losing pretty hard thus the struggles you've had over the years no they couldn't post why it would increase fairness, but they did try anyways had the entire league wanted it left on you wouldn't have because they can't prove it increases fairness what do you lose by letting them play that way? it makes them happy you're right and everyone is happy at the same time i think that's what i would have done, but history has shown that that would have made me a bad cw.cc admin Quote: no, it wasn't. i kept saying that it was bollock-brainedly stupid to get points when you're doing fuck all damage; he said actually yes havocs do do damage, just not very much, and that explains why they get such massive points. he got you good, you just didn't realize it Quote: i'm glad that after mentioning these sort of tactics again and again and again, you've finally managed to acknowledge it. i don't agree; just because some polls in the history of cw.cc were rigged doesn't mean they were all rigged Quote: still, i wouldn't say that. you're the one putting all your faith in that poll thread too much perhaps Quote: and yet even with your dumbass poll thread, you can add up the Yes and the Don't Mind Either Way votes to outnumber the Nos. but like i said, my argument never relied on counting the number of people who agreed with me; it's not so weak as yours. i wasn't aware of the overall indifference that or i just forgot or neglected to remember it and it's not my poll thread, i never made a poll on cw.cc Quote: yes, it does. the one and only person from clanwars.cc who actually did do what i kept suggesting was whiskey, and he got no end of contempt for doing so. what does that have to do with you saying no one gave a shit about clanwars.cc Quote: ...that they like playing clanwars? that doesn't demonstrate a generous nature. who said anything about generous? if they didn't give a shit they wouldn't post or ask things or participate at all Quote: i know nothing about coding at all, never stopped me. i've always found there to be two kinds of people in this world, people who get the fucking job done whatever the obstacles, and people who come back to you with excuses for why they didn't do it. what about the people that die trying Quote: i might add that i offered several times to sell people a league and help them set it up. there is no clanwars without spoony if you haven't noticed people seem to want you around, even if they disagree with you Quote: if they don't even dare say so in the debate thread that's specifically there for the purpose, i don't think i can persuade myself to do what they want. pfft, have a heart Quote: you're right about one thing, you're not me. you know fuck all about how to run a ladder, and you've never shown that you care enough about the clan community to put the effort into trying. yes, if nobody can explain why X is better than Y for a rule, nor can anybody refute my detailed assertions on why Y is better than X, we're going with Y and if this makes cheaters and compulsive liars angry, so much the better. if the league becoming more fair has the added effect of angering people who prefer the game not to be fair, this is a bonus rather than a drawback. if that reduced the league to nothing would it be worth it in your eyes? Quote: again, anyone can see i did not say that. i suppose it's easier for you to pretend i said something i never said, than to face your own stupidity in placing all your faith in a poll by and for people who'd already proven their willingness to rig them. erm Quote: i'm glad that after mentioning these sort of tactics again and again and again, you've finally managed to acknowledge it. i feel like your statements contradict each other Quote: my position, by contrast, is very simple and has always been consistent: those polls are worth jack shit to me and always were. debate is what matters. if people lose the debate then i'm not likely to do what they say; and if people are too scared to participate in the debate for fear of losing (my god, how sad is that) then i'm even less likely to do what they say. a lot of people don't enjoy debating or are no good at it because they can't win you over with essays because they're incapable of writing them their opinions mean jack shit to you seems kind of shitty to me Quote: you're better than this... deal with what i actually say, don't lower yourself into pretending i said things i obviously did not say. trying to say and actually saying are two different things from what i gather by your statements you're claiming that they are douchebags because they'd like their preferred settings used in clanwars over your proposed settings but won't actually go out and make their own league to do it Quote: and yet i'd be far less of a douchebag than everyone who wanted a pointbugged ladder and couldn't be bothered hosting one, and there's nothing you can say that'll change that. do yourself a favour, just admit you've lost this debate. there is no overcoming that argument. i'm just trying to better understand you, call it what you want i don't agree with that argument Quote: then what a pity that in all the overwhelming majority that supposedly wanted the point bug, not a single one could give enough of a shit to make that happen. they couldn't even pull together and do it. meanwhile the people who actually DID deliver the goods - me and whiskey - have gotten nothing but contempt for doing so. that's untrue from some people sure, but not all people you believe that someone asking you to change what you're doing is a douchebag move if they're not willing to do it themselves? or is there more to it than that Quote: if you still haven't figured out by now that i couldn't give a shit which side of the argument majority is on, i don't think you ever will back to the soul case, if it's everyone vs. you what do you lose by going with everyone i'm actually interested in your thinking on that Quote: no, it doesn't. i'm doing them a favour by hosting them a league at all; they have no reason to expect to be run the way they like. yeah but does it hurt to ask? Quote: this sentence is two words too long. rude and also mean Quote: oh dear, you're still under the impression that it was simpee and clearshot not playing any more than killed the league, as opposed to me not playing any more. if the events of the time when they were banned didn't convince you of the reality, how about when a new admin tried to revitalise the league recently with simpee and clearshot unbanned? i didn't play, despite being asked to all the time... and the league didn't fire up. the admin even gave people votes and choices on whether to use the point bug or not, and the league didn't fire up. ouch. did they play either? probably not and also, there is no clanwars without spoony you're embedded in peoples' brains Quote: what a dumb thing to say just because people don't post doesn't mean they don't have an opinion on something if everyone is of the same opinion on something i don't get what you gain by dismissing all of them because you disagree with it what are you left with then? Quote: nobody needed to, i was doing a perfectly good job winning the argument despite it being 1v7 or whatever. write a strategy guide! that or you were all alone, though like you said that does not matter Quote: i know you don't want to admit the simple fact that everyone who did speak up against it in the thread were cheaters and pointpushers and rulebreakers and compulsive liars, but it would be better if you just faced that simple fact. you named everyone that posted in that topic and took a shit on them - this is the band of rapists i keep referring to i have a hard time believing they're the only ones from cw.cc that wanted to use the original points over the pointmod Quote: what i said about him was true. poor zell i don't remember what it was but it seemed less bad than the rest Quote: you're dangerously close to a good point there i think you're ignoring the point i made about expecting everyone to be respectable and mature in such a competitive environment that's ok though Quote: no, clear and simpee on the jelly forum. it doesn't seem like that serious of an assertion if you can easily deflect it
Someone report all messages that need to be split off. I'm not going to read through it all. And yes: I am a mod here, and will see to it that carrierII also gets these rights .
Clanwars .cc Presents Command & Conquer Renegade Essay Wars. Essay wars brings a new gameplay experience like never before. The point system for each essay has been greatly enhanced.
Gen_Blacky wrote on Sun, 31 October 2010 10:59 Clanwars .cc Presents Command & Conquer Renegade Essay Wars. Essay wars brings a new gameplay experience like never before. The point system for each essay has been greatly enhanced. Talking about essays, perhaps it is fun to invite everyone to write an essay on how they think the ladder should be. Afterwards the results a published and people can vote on them.
EWD, have you summoned up enough decency and honesty to apologise to me yet, or are you still cuddling up to your friend 0x90 despite the fact he's still making and releasing stuff that harms renegade, exactly as I tried to convince your dumb ass that he would? liquid: Toggle Spoiler Quote: it's interesting you're immovably focused on this part of the statement as opposed to either of the two more important parts, 1: the anti-pointsfix crowd had already been caught rigging these polls, 2: nobody important at clanwars ever said that poll was worth a damn thing, whereas it was made clear that the debate thread was central in determining policy. what i still can't understand is why you would do something that everyone disagreed with[/quote] i don't know why not. if you can understand why you - for example - didn't host a pointbugged ladder for everybody who wanted one, it isn't such a big step to realising that someone else might not want to either, especially when that someone has always been the most vocal opponent of the point bug. of course, on that basis you might think that i deserve some credit for hosting a pointbugged ladder for such a long time despite my contempt for the bug, but no. no thanks are due there, only being called a "douche" when the problem is finally fixable. Quote: for example the soul case, had he just been allowed to play then clanwars.cc wouldn't have been breathing down your neck about the Renegade league you've lost me there. Quote: Quote: this is because you're a fucking idiot who can't or won't understand a really simple but really crucial point. you don't care whether or not your playerbase is happy you care about what you'd rather have based on what you think is right, even if that means hosting an empty league what do you think i don't understand? the fact that you have no credibility at all in criticising the way clanwars was run, because nobody else could be bothered running a clan ladder at all. Quote: Quote: the longer your list is of people who want a pointsbugged ladder, the sadder it is that not a single one of them could give enough of a shit to provide one themselves. you keep calling me a douche for running the league the way i think it should go... how stupid are you? why have you never called EVERYBODY ELSE ON RENEGADE a douche for not giving enough of a shit to provide a league at all? you really are thick if this has never occurred to you, even if i hadn't carefully tried to spell it out to your dumb ass over and over and over and over again. you're rude! they're douchebags because they would rather you run the original points than the pointmod in your league? i'd rather be rude than a bald-faced liar, liquid. why do you keep ignoring what i say and then deliberately pretending i said things i absolutely did not say? i'd respect you more if you just admitted you lost the argument instead of trying to lie your way out of it. Quote: Quote: i'd rather call it a fact than a law. why is everything you say fact? and there you go again. why do you keep lying? when did i say "everything i say is a fact"? why are you lying by claiming i said or think this? Quote: Quote: again, this is a really sad attempt to shift the fault. the reason nobody other than me hosted a league is because nobody could give a shit about the clan community. even when they admit to not being able to care enough - as simpee said - or even when they say that they would not lower themselves to hosting something for renegade - as orca said - you seem intent on thinking that what's easily explained by apathy and selfishness is actually caused by something noble. if that's the way it actually was then i'd agree with you i suppose i'm glad to hear you would agree with me if only you were perceptive enough to see what's right in front of you. Quote: i just have a very hard time believing that everyone in cw.cc was like that and i think that had that been the case you wouldn't have hosted it at all eh? one of the main reasons i hosted the clanwars ladder is because no fucker else on renegade could be bothered. Quote: would it have been the end of the world had you let the clanwars players play with their pointpushing best friend and avoided the whole scenario altogether? there you have it, ladies and gentlemen. no rebuttal necessary, the quote speaks for itself. Quote: i've purposely left my original statement in the quote box, so everyone can see the point i made illustrated again by your reply to it. look at the point i made, about how i just can't get you to show the slightest reaction to incredibly important things, and yet all you can focus on is counting how many people are on which side. it's because i don't believe you when you say the only people against using the pointmod in clanwars were simpee and his named band of rapist cheaters[/quote] oh dear, you completely changed the subject. Quote: Quote: whiskey was originally against the pointsfix, then changed his mind. the anti-pointsfix crowd were simply intolerant of anyone who disagreed with them (just look at the pathetic way they've continually treated me). there'd just HAVE to be some other explanation for whiskey's opinion than "he thinks this is a good thing for the league" i understand that that's why i said it could have gone either way, i didn't know for sure translation: you blindly swallowed what a small number of cheaters and compulsive liars told you, despite the fact that at the time i was carefully pointing out the simple truth of the matter Quote: Quote: i certainly gave them every opportunity. if every clanwars.cc member enjoyed openly engaging in debates on the forums it would have worked more the way you'd intended it to who gives a shit whether anybody "enjoys" debates? if you want a rule changed, explain why. if you can't, don't expect it to be changed. who cares whether you enjoy trying to explain why? Quote: Quote: much, much less of a douchebag than you, as i've tried over and over and over again to explain how rude! if i ran a league and everyone was telling me one thing i'd more likely than not side with them though if what you tell me is true it's further from everyone than i thought and i may be mistaken the "if i ran a league" is the critical bit. if you gave enough of a shit about clan gaming to host a league, here's how you'd run it! well, i suppose we have to take you at your word, such as it is, because you didn't give enough of a shit about clan gaming to host a league, though you've got plenty of criticism to aim at the only person who DID host one because it wasn't exactly as you wanted it to be. your parents must have had a hell of time Quote: Quote: this is just plain wrong. clanwars died when *i* stopped playing, and i stopped playing because i eventually reached the point at which the unbelievably pathetic nature of the clanwars.cc community made me not want to spend any more effort on them (putting me down to the same level as everyone else who didn't run a league for them) i think it would have been swell of you to keep doing it, despite their abuse, because it was the right thing at least something you could honestly argue was the right thing, and eventually they would have realized it and some would have it in them to thank you you would have been a Renesaint as would anyone who could be bothered hosting a pointbugged ladder when, according to you, everyone except me and whiskey wanted one. what a pity that not a single person on the planet could, so instead you direct your anger at the only person who hosts a league and the only person who helps him run it. if you can't see how phenomenally stupid you are being here, i just don't know how many more times i need to repeat it. Quote: Quote: and the need to lie to everybody for about a week when he was under investigation, including his own clan. i'd call lying to your own clan about the worst thing you can do in the clan world, and that wasn't even the first time he'd pointpushed. yet they still loved and forgave him if it's an unforgivable sin why did they almost unanimously want him allowed back in? because they're a bunch of idiots? that's the short answer. Quote: Quote: it's not strange at all, why would someone continue to spend their resources for such a cesspool of a community? that line made me laugh it doesn't seem like such a cesspool to me, lots of people enjoyed the years they spent there and the fun they had i'm sure it had low points but i don't think they would have been reason enough to close it down, based on what i've heard and seen i'm specifically talking about a specific period in its history (the Soul episode) - and at this point, the community truly was a cesspool. Quote: then again IM STILL NO CW.CC ADMIN SO IDK you're almost on to something here. you don't run a clanwars league for these people so you don't know? indeed. so you know what it's like to not host a league for a bunch of idiots... so you ought to understand what might drive someone else to decide not to as well. Quote: Quote: that thing i kept telling you about some maps being blatantly unfair, so unfair that certain players would leave if they got the bad side. aren't there still some maps like that with the pointmod on? like, say, mesa not with mesa2... guess who solved that problem? again? Quote: Quote: then these exact same people later turn up crying about how they think mesa is unfair with the pointsfix, it's enough to make a cat laugh why wouldn't you just play simpee then and shut him up, your cat would have been laffin why didn't you read my detailed and repeated explanations of why i wouldn't play him at the time? Quote: Quote: apology accepted. you realise that everything you just said could be said about the soul episode? sure, but had you just said Ok you guys are stupid, but at least you've accepted it so we're allowing this pointpushing baby-rapist scumbag Soul to play again, i'll just leave this quote to stand on its own, it says a lot more than you meant it to Quote: no they couldn't post why it would increase fairness, but they did try anyways you seem reluctant to finish your sentence. the last words that belong on the end are "but they were wrong" Quote: had the entire league wanted it left on you wouldn't have because they can't prove it increases fairness what do you lose by letting them play that way? it makes them happy it might be the same thing you thought you would lose by hosting a pointbugged clan ladder for them? Quote: you're right and everyone is happy at the same time i think that's what i would have done, but history has shown that that would have made me a bad cw.cc admin the fact you don't give enough of a shit about the clan world to host a league at all is enough to demonstrate you wouldn't be a good admin, we don't need much more evidence than that. we don't even need to notice your contempt for the only person who actually did and the renadmin at the time, though that helps form the picture too. Quote: Quote: i'm glad that after mentioning these sort of tactics again and again and again, you've finally managed to acknowledge it. i don't agree; just because some polls in the history of cw.cc were rigged doesn't mean they were all rigged nobody said they were, though you lied and tried to make it sound like i did. Quote: Quote: and yet even with your dumbass poll thread, you can add up the Yes and the Don't Mind Either Way votes to outnumber the Nos. but like i said, my argument never relied on counting the number of people who agreed with me; it's not so weak as yours. i wasn't aware of the overall indifference that or i just forgot or neglected to remember it or you were just overly focused on the small group of cheaters and pointpushers Quote: Quote: yes, it does. the one and only person from clanwars.cc who actually did do what i kept suggesting was whiskey, and he got no end of contempt for doing so. what does that have to do with you saying no one gave a shit about clanwars.cc i can't tell if that's a serious question or not Quote: Quote: ...that they like playing clanwars? that doesn't demonstrate a generous nature. who said anything about generous? if they didn't give a shit they wouldn't post or ask things or participate at all is there anything praiseworthy here? Quote: Quote: i know nothing about coding at all, never stopped me. i've always found there to be two kinds of people in this world, people who get the fucking job done whatever the obstacles, and people who come back to you with excuses for why they didn't do it. what about the people that die trying never mind them, we're talking about the enormous number of people who never tried at all, for whom you're very quick to make excuses. Quote: Quote: i might add that i offered several times to sell people a league and help them set it up. there is no clanwars without spoony if you haven't noticed people seem to want you around, even if they disagree with you would that explain the general enthusiasm when i was suspended because a cheater lied his way into my clan? still, carry on making excuses for these people if you like. the fact remains that none of them came up with the goods, and you attacked the only person who did. Quote: Quote: if they don't even dare say so in the debate thread that's specifically there for the purpose, i don't think i can persuade myself to do what they want. pfft, have a heart having a debate thread at all is more generous than they have a reason to expect; i could just say "here's spoony's decision the madder, live with it" and lock the thread, as i was advised by quite a few people to do instead of actually talking to these idiots. Quote: Quote: you're right about one thing, you're not me. you know fuck all about how to run a ladder, and you've never shown that you care enough about the clan community to put the effort into trying. yes, if nobody can explain why X is better than Y for a rule, nor can anybody refute my detailed assertions on why Y is better than X, we're going with Y and if this makes cheaters and compulsive liars angry, so much the better. if the league becoming more fair has the added effect of angering people who prefer the game not to be fair, this is a bonus rather than a drawback. if that reduced the league to nothing would it be worth it in your eyes? i've been asked the same question before, but in a more threatening tone. Quote: Quote: again, anyone can see i did not say that. i suppose it's easier for you to pretend i said something i never said, than to face your own stupidity in placing all your faith in a poll by and for people who'd already proven their willingness to rig them. erm Quote: i'm glad that after mentioning these sort of tactics again and again and again, you've finally managed to acknowledge it. i feel like your statements contradict each other no? that was the first time you seemed to acknowledge the fact that the anti-pointsfix crowd at clanwars had been caught rigging polls like that before, despite the innumerable times i kept pointing it out to you and you obviously didn't care. Quote: Quote: my position, by contrast, is very simple and has always been consistent: those polls are worth jack shit to me and always were. debate is what matters. if people lose the debate then i'm not likely to do what they say; and if people are too scared to participate in the debate for fear of losing (my god, how sad is that) then i'm even less likely to do what they say. a lot of people don't enjoy debating or are no good at it because they can't win you over with essays because they're incapable of writing them their opinions mean jack shit to you seems kind of shitty to me i suspect this is wilful dishonesty on your part rather than simple stupidity. i didn't say you have to crafted a beautifully worded essay, i just said you had to actually be right. Quote: Quote: you're better than this... deal with what i actually say, don't lower yourself into pretending i said things i obviously did not say. trying to say and actually saying are two different things from what i gather by your statements you're claiming that they are douchebags because they'd like their preferred settings used in clanwars over your proposed settings but won't actually go out and make their own league to do it this one seems more like simple stupidity than wilful dishonesty. i can only advise you to actually read and understand what i say before replying to it. Quote: Quote: and yet i'd be far less of a douchebag than everyone who wanted a pointbugged ladder and couldn't be bothered hosting one, and there's nothing you can say that'll change that. do yourself a favour, just admit you've lost this debate. there is no overcoming that argument. i'm just trying to better understand you, call it what you want i don't agree with that argument i know you don't, because it logically makes you much more of a douche than i could ever be, and given the sheer number of times you've called me a douche for this reason it would make you the most colossal douche in the world. Quote: Quote: then what a pity that in all the overwhelming majority that supposedly wanted the point bug, not a single one could give enough of a shit to make that happen. they couldn't even pull together and do it. meanwhile the people who actually DID deliver the goods - me and whiskey - have gotten nothing but contempt for doing so. that's untrue from some people sure, but not all people from you and from the people you were so enthusiastically defending, it was absolutely true. Quote: you believe that someone asking you to change what you're doing is a douchebag move if they're not willing to do it themselves? no. but your standards for meeting the label "douche" are much lower than mine; they apply to someone who's going to great lengths to do you a favour if that favour isn't exactly the way you'd like it. Quote: Quote: if you still haven't figured out by now that i couldn't give a shit which side of the argument majority is on, i don't think you ever will back to the soul case, if it's everyone vs. you what do you lose by going with everyone i'm actually interested in your thinking on that i see you've already forgotten about the whole "CLAN WARS would have shut the league down" bit, maybe because - as i said several times before - it's not something you are at all bothered by. at one point shortbus (global admin) said that blkst0rm and i were the only good things about the renegade community (he was specifically talking about the clanwars section, before anybody here objects), precisely because we were actually going by rules and fairness and honesty instead of caving in to a bunch of idiots. that's one thing we could have lost - the entire league. aside from that, what a great precedent to set. "here's a situation where you can get away with pointpushing and photoshopping screenshots for fake wins, guys". tell me, do you think that would lead to more cheating or less? but maybe you don't care about rules being applied fairly, maybe you think punishments should not be decided by what your offence was but how many people like you instead. well, i don't give a shit about pleasing people, i'd rather be honest. so under your system, me - maybe the fairest and most honest player you could find - would come off much worse than someone with such a colourful history of cheating and pointpushing and lying to everyone about it (the admins, his opponents, his own clan). i suppose if you could give enough of a shit to actually run a clan league, this is what it might look like. what could i lose? dignity, for one thing. ever heard of it? where there is a question of cheating or fairplay or honesty, you will always find me on the right side. there are quite a lot of people in the renegade community for whom this can't be said. Quote: Quote: oh dear, you're still under the impression that it was simpee and clearshot not playing any more than killed the league, as opposed to me not playing any more. if the events of the time when they were banned didn't convince you of the reality, how about when a new admin tried to revitalise the league recently with simpee and clearshot unbanned? i didn't play, despite being asked to all the time... and the league didn't fire up. the admin even gave people votes and choices on whether to use the point bug or not, and the league didn't fire up. ouch. did they play either? probably not nothing stopped them. they had a pretty good deal - a clanwars league with an admin other than spoony, and the chance to have votes and choices on whether to play with the point bug or not. if you believe everything simpee and clearshot ever said about clanwars, you would think they would have leapt at the chance. but maybe, like me, you don't believe everything simpee and clearshot say. Quote: just because people don't post doesn't mean they don't have an opinion on something if everyone is of the same opinion on something i don't get what you gain by dismissing all of them because you disagree with it what are you left with then? "dismissing all of them because you disagree with it" is a dishonest way to phrase it. it's not as bad as "didn't listen to them", which was an outright lie you should be ashamed of yourself for saying as often as you did, but it's still dishonest. "dismissing them because you disagreed with them", no. i read everything they said and replied to them all. shame they were all WRONG. perhaps you don't like to think that anybody's opinion could actually be WRONG, liquid. Quote: Quote: what i said about him was true. poor zell i don't remember what it was but it seemed less bad than the rest yes, it was. not everyone is as bad as robo or simpee. Quote: Quote: you're dangerously close to a good point there i think you're ignoring the point i made about expecting everyone to be respectable and mature in such a competitive environment that's ok though i don't remember saying i EXPECTED anyone from clanwars to behave maturely? Quote: Quote: no, clear and simpee on the jelly forum. it doesn't seem like that serious of an assertion if you can easily deflect it it was obvious they didn't think i'd have such an easy time proving they were lying.
@liquid, its pretty clear you have no idea what your talking about, have never been any good at this game, nor know how to even run a server....I'd say save your breath. @spoony, yes thats exactly my point...if this ladder is instated democratically, then retards like liquid will just come up/argue for retarded ideas as to how it should work. I know ignorance might be bliss, but im saying those who know what they are talking about should be the ones designing this whole thing for the betterment of all (regardless if they see it as that way or not).
troop shouldn't bother you, he doesn't bother me he's just mistaken, that's all Spoony Toggle Spoiler Quote: i don't know why not. if you can understand why you - for example - didn't host a pointbugged ladder for everybody who wanted one, it isn't such a big step to realising that someone else might not want to either, especially when that someone has always been the most vocal opponent of the point bug. you assume i didn't want to because i can't be bothered or wouldn't lower myself to paying or running anything for renegade not saying i did, but what if i really liked the idea, but didn't do it because i felt it would be pointless trying to make a ladder for renegade that spoony did not endorse? i think it's possible other people felt the same way Quote: of course, on that basis you might think that i deserve some credit for hosting a pointbugged ladder for such a long time despite my contempt for the bug, but no. no thanks are due there, only being called a "douche" when the problem is finally fixable. now you finally understand! i guess my thinking is skewed i figure that since you're the only person that can really run a renegade ladder (whether you'll openly admit this or not) you would do Quote: you've lost me there. how would allowing soul to play have nearly jeopardized the ren league at cw.cc? the uproar was caused by him being banned you acted correctly but that nearly resulted in clanwars.cc cutting Renegade off of their site Quote: the fact that you have no credibility at all in criticising the way clanwars was run, because nobody else could be bothered running a clan ladder at all. i'm not so sure it's that they couldn't be bothered i think people realize that you do a better job than they actually could (minus a select few people like trooprm02 - i've read clanwars.cc a handful of times and each time he was trying to tell you why you suck at what you're doing and how he could do better) and figured there was no point in trying like i've said Spoony is clanwars.cc; people do not believe clanwars can succeed without you at this point and because i didn't run a clan ladder for renegade means i have no credibility on the subject? i'm not saying i do have credibility on the subject, but that thinking is flawed you should not criticize politicians or what they do because you've never been one yourself - you have no credibility on the subject Quote: i'd rather be rude than a bald-faced liar, liquid. why do you keep ignoring what i say and then deliberately pretending i said things i absolutely did not say? i'd respect you more if you just admitted you lost the argument instead of trying to lie your way out of it. i have facial hair sorry it looks to me that you're insinuating things about people but when i mention it or point it out you call me a liar it's a trap here's what i got from what you were saying: "these people want me to change my ladder but aren't willing to go make their own community to have the proposed changes to my ladder - that makes them douchebags" i also got this: "these people want me to change what i'm doing to cater to their wants instead of thanking me for hosting it - that makes them douchebags" am i incorrect in saying this? Quote: and there you go again. why do you keep lying? when did i say "everything i say is a fact"? why are you lying by claiming i said or think this? i didn't say that you said "everything you say is a fact" you're lying in saying i said that...stop lying you big liar in the past other people have made claims and you dismissed them, but when you made claims you treated them as fact i noticed it in religious debates but didn't think i'd have to pinpoint and save it one time i remember is when you accused MSGTPain of hating you due to you catching his friends cheating in a community war, and when i asked if you had proof of that you never responded i never said this, i'm just asking you if it's something you believe to be true, because from watching it's a question i had myself Quote: i suppose i'm glad to hear you would agree with me if only you were perceptive enough to see what's right in front of you. it seems to me you've decided that clanwars.cc is entirely represented by simpee and orca one "couldn't be bothered" to host a league whereas the other "wouldn't lower himself to that" i don't believe that all of clanwars.cc can be described by either of these two players how do you know simpee was telling the truth? it's possible he would have liked to but felt it would not work and didn't want to get flak for it Quote: eh? one of the main reasons i hosted the clanwars ladder is because no fucker else on renegade could be bothered. well that was very kind of you didn't people host it before yourself? perhaps someone else would have had you not stepped in you must have done a good job because after you came along no one else really wanted to try perhaps they thought they could not do a better job than you do or did and that their efforts would be pointless you said yourself that clanwars.cc died because you stopped playing - perhaps there's some validity to my words Quote: there you have it, ladies and gentlemen. no rebuttal necessary, the quote speaks for itself. it's a simple question - you claimed that banning soul almost killed renegade at cw.cc i don't disagree with you banning him for breaking a rule but i simply raised a question - do you think the uproar may have been averted had you just let it go and made everyone else happy? alright, you later covered this, but would it have gotten clanwars.cc off your back? even if it was for entirely wrong reasons? Quote: oh dear, you completely changed the subject. nope, i didn't at all change the subject i understand that in your eyes the only people that didn't want the pointmod used in clanwars were the only people that posted in that topic, which you named i believe that may be untrue Quote: translation: you blindly swallowed what a small number of cheaters and compulsive liars told you, despite the fact that at the time i was carefully pointing out the simple truth of the matter i don't think i thought either way on it, i simply understood why what you said could have been true and why their concerns and thoughts could have been true i still don't know what whiskey thought either way, even if he told you he wanted it used maybe he didn't and wanted to please you i don't think it matters much either way whether he did or not, just saying Quote: who gives a shit whether anybody "enjoys" debates? if you want a rule changed, explain why. if you can't, don't expect it to be changed. who cares whether you enjoy trying to explain why? that's a nice way of putting it a lot of people don't like posting things if they know they're going to get criticized for it, so perhaps they saw simpee and the others trying to tell you why they wanted the original points used and the way you tried to tell them their opinions were wrong and decided against posting at all though since you only care about debate in determining how clanwars.cc is run it wouldn't have mattered either way to you Quote: the "if i ran a league" is the critical bit. if you gave enough of a shit about clan gaming to host a league, here's how you'd run it! well, i suppose we have to take you at your word, such as it is, because you didn't give enough of a shit about clan gaming to host a league, though you've got plenty of criticism to aim at the only person who DID host one because it wasn't exactly as you wanted it to be. i just have a hard time understanding why you do what you do, that's all am i not allowed to ask you why you do what you do in regards to running a clan league or tell you why i think it makes no sense because i don't or haven't run one myself? i don't agree with that thinking, and i covered it earlier Quote: your parents must have had a hell of time i was raised by wolves hurp durp Quote: as would anyone who could be bothered hosting a pointbugged ladder when, according to you, everyone except me and whiskey wanted one. i think if people were asked who the best person to host a pointbugged ladder in ren would be it would be you maybe that's why they wanted you to do it so badly Quote: what a pity that not a single person on the planet could, so instead you direct your anger at the only person who hosts a league and the only person who helps him run it. what makes you think i'm mad? lol i don't think that anyone else could have successfully run an original points ladder, especially while you were running your own ladder i'm sure i'm not the only one that thinks that either Quote: if you can't see how phenomenally stupid you are being here, i just don't know how many more times i need to repeat it. forgive me, i can be slow Quote: because they're a bunch of idiots? that's the short answer. Quote: you're almost on to something here. you don't run a clanwars league for these people so you don't know? indeed. so you know what it's like to not host a league for a bunch of idiots... so you ought to understand what might drive someone else to decide not to as well. fair enough, there are quite a few reasons i can come up with for why more people haven't tried Quote: why didn't you read my detailed and repeated explanations of why i wouldn't play him at the time? didn't you cite that the vehicle alignment issue was the main reason? and that the map wasn't complete without it? if there was more to it please fill me in it just looked to me like you were avoiding it, and i didn't think the vehicle alignment issue would have changed the outcome of the game Quote: again, i'll just leave this quote to stand on its own, it says a lot more than you meant it to i posed the question above in regards to the Soul situation not that it matters either way! i was just questioning whether your way of conducting business at cw.cc was always best done by discussion, though you did a good job covering it Quote: you seem reluctant to finish your sentence. the last words that belong on the end are "but they were wrong" i didn't think i had to say that, the fact that they couldn't argue it says just that even though the pointmod makes the game much more fair people still didn't want it used Quote: it might be the same thing you thought you would lose by hosting a pointbugged clan ladder for them? which is what? Quote: the fact you don't give enough of a shit about the clan world to host a league at all is enough to demonstrate you wouldn't be a good admin, we don't need much more evidence than that. we don't even need to notice your contempt for the only person who actually did and the renadmin at the time, though that helps form the picture too. you have an idea of what you're doing and it worked in the past i have a hard time understanding it, that's all Quote: nobody said they were, though you lied and tried to make it sound like i did. you made a point to say that polls were rigged in clanwars multiple times after you mentioned the poll about wanting the pointmod in clanwars what i inferred was you were suggesting this one had been rigged as well what i said several times was that just because others in the past had been rigged that this one wasn't necessarily rigged if you never said that it had been rigged then what's the big deal? i don't recall you saying it, but i did respond thinking that's what you had meant Quote: or you were just overly focused on the small group of cheaters and pointpushers perhaps! Quote: i can't tell if that's a serious question or not just because whiskey was the only person who always stood by your side and listened to you does not mean no one else cared or "gave a shit" about clanwars Quote: is there anything praiseworthy here? who said anything about delivering praise? i'm just explaining why i think more people "gave a shit" about clanwars than you think maybe you should tell me exactly what you mean when you say "gave a shit" Quote: never mind them, we're talking about the enormous number of people who never tried at all, for whom you're very quick to make excuses. they would fall into your "come back with excuses" category Quote: would that explain the general enthusiasm when i was suspended because a cheater lied his way into my clan? who said they have to like you? you probably made them feel stupid at one point or another you've said several times that they're idiots, so is it farfetched to say they may not have liked you much despite them disliking you they stuck around, which you've attributed to them being too lazy to make their own league Quote: still, carry on making excuses for these people if you like. the fact remains that none of them came up with the goods, and you attacked the only person who did. what if no one else was capable? if you're the only one that can honestly do it then what? i can't see anyone else running a clan league for renegade Quote: having a debate thread at all is more generous than they have a reason to expect; i could just say "here's spoony's decision the madder, live with it" and lock the thread, as i was advised by quite a few people to do instead of actually talking to these idiots. why do that though? that would be no fun for you Quote: i've been asked the same question before, but in a more threatening tone. alright, but that doesn't answer the question would you be content with your decision even if it emptied out your community? it doesn't seem to bother you that right now renegade at clanwars.cc sits nearly empty so "no" seems a plausible answer to me Quote: no? that was the first time you seemed to acknowledge the fact that the anti-pointsfix crowd at clanwars had been caught rigging polls like that before, despite the innumerable times i kept pointing it out to you and you obviously didn't care. no - i believed you on that, without actually having seen it myself, but you mentioned it numerous times after mentioning that specific poll it looked to me like you were saying that that poll had been rigged, and that's why several times i've stated that i don't believe that because other polls were rigged in the past that that poll had been rigged you never actually said it, but again it appeared you were clearly hinting at it Quote: i suspect this is wilful dishonesty on your part rather than simple stupidity. i didn't say you have to crafted a beautifully worded essay, i just said you had to actually be right. hmm no, stick with simple stupidity in the case of the pointmod what was the point? if you made a topic where people were supposed to prove why it's more fair when you already know it's unfair you're just lying a trap out with the intention of slapping people around was your topic made to ask whether people wanted to use the pointmod or whether people thought it was more fair? Quote: this one seems more like simple stupidity than wilful dishonesty. i can only advise you to actually read and understand what i say before replying to it. easier said than done you're severely british, and my brain is odd as a result things get misunderstood Quote: i know you don't, because it logically makes you much more of a douche than i could ever be, and given the sheer number of times you've called me a douche for this reason it would make you the most colossal douche in the world. pfft if the reason no one else has tried to make a clan ladder, over the pointmod issue or any other issue, was solely due to people "not giving a shit" then i would have no problem agreeing with you i'm not so sure that's the case Quote: from you and from the people you were so enthusiastically defending, it was absolutely true. that's probably true, and i don't know enough to prove it otherwise for the record i honestly think it's great that you hosted a league for renegade throughout the years, even if you've never gotten that from me Quote: no. but your standards for meeting the label "douche" are much lower than mine; they apply to someone who's going to great lengths to do you a favour if that favour isn't exactly the way you'd like it. correct Quote: i see you've already forgotten about the whole "CLAN WARS would have shut the league down" bit, maybe because - as i said several times before - it's not something you are at all bothered by. at one point shortbus (global admin) said that blkst0rm and i were the only good things about the renegade community (he was specifically talking about the clanwars section, before anybody here objects), precisely because we were actually going by rules and fairness and honesty instead of caving in to a bunch of idiots. that's one thing we could have lost - the entire league. aside from that, what a great precedent to set. "here's a situation where you can get away with pointpushing and photoshopping screenshots for fake wins, guys". tell me, do you think that would lead to more cheating or less? but maybe you don't care about rules being applied fairly, maybe you think punishments should not be decided by what your offence was but how many people like you instead. well, i don't give a shit about pleasing people, i'd rather be honest. so under your system, me - maybe the fairest and most honest player you could find - would come off much worse than someone with such a colourful history of cheating and pointpushing and lying to everyone about it (the admins, his opponents, his own clan). i suppose if you could give enough of a shit to actually run a clan league, this is what it might look like. what could i lose? dignity, for one thing. ever heard of it? where there is a question of cheating or fairplay or honesty, you will always find me on the right side. there are quite a lot of people in the renegade community for whom this can't be said. well said Quote: "dismissing all of them because you disagree with it" is a dishonest way to phrase it. it's not as bad as "didn't listen to them", which was an outright lie you should be ashamed of yourself for saying as often as you did, but it's still dishonest. "dismissing them because you disagreed with them", no. i read everything they said and replied to them all. shame they were all WRONG. perhaps you don't like to think that anybody's opinion could actually be WRONG, liquid. that's an interesting question i like to think that if people have opinions on things that they should at least be able to back them up, and i back up what i say if i'm proven wrong i'll admit it, i'm not a dishonest person (at least not intentionally) what i was trying to get at is that since you felt their opinions were not valid (or as you say WRONG) that they do not matter once again it's my way of thinking not understanding yours, which would make me a bad clanwars admin Quote: yes, it was. not everyone is as bad as robo or simpee. i still think of zell as a good person! Quote: i don't remember saying i EXPECTED anyone from clanwars to behave maturely? you didn't say it, i just assumed it's what you meant and addressed it as such if it's not then don't worry about it but did you expect it? more or less? Quote: it was obvious they didn't think i'd have such an easy time proving they were lying. yet they still put it out there perhaps it was what they honestly thought and you set the record straight for them - if so then that's good, right?
Re: Liquid trying to understand British logic - cleared
Please feel free to continue the debate here.
liquidv2 wrote on Sun, 31 October 2010 18:23 you assume i didn't want to because i can't be bothered or wouldn't lower myself to paying or running anything for renegade not saying i did, but what if i really liked the idea, but didn't do it because i felt it would be pointless trying to make a ladder for renegade that spoony did not endorse? i think it's possible other people felt the same way i think you're focusing too much on the excuses and not enough on the complete absence of effort or results. Quote: now you finally understand! i guess my thinking is skewed i figure that since you're the only person that can really run a renegade ladder (whether you'll openly admit this or not) you would do why? i don't have magic powers, i don't have access to some source of wisdom that's denied everyone else. if your statement boils down to "you're the only one with the sufficient dedication" then it doesn't belong in an argument against me, does it? [quote title=Quote:] Quote: Quote: you've lost me there. how would allowing soul to play have nearly jeopardized the ren league at cw.cc? the uproar was caused by him being banned you acted correctly but that nearly resulted in clanwars.cc cutting Renegade off of their site uh no, letting him play was what probably would've caused that. like i said, the global admins thought that me and blkst0rm were the only decent people in a community that was - aside from we two - a complete cesspool and not at all worth CLAN WARS's resources to host. the exception were the two admins who ran things as fairly as we did no matter how retarded the general community was being at the time. Quote: i'm not so sure it's that they couldn't be bothered i think people realize that you do a better job than they actually could (minus a select few people like trooprm02 - i've read clanwars.cc a handful of times and each time he was trying to tell you why you suck at what you're doing and how he could do better) and figured there was no point in trying like i've said Spoony is clanwars.cc; people do not believe clanwars can succeed without you at this point well, if the entire anti-pointsfix crowd (everyone except me and whiskey, supposedly) clubbed together and still couldn't with their combined might do better than spoony, you might think this would make people think that spoony's doing something right and perhaps, just perhaps, his decisions are worth some respect. instead we seem to've had a situation where the community needed spoony to survive just as long as spoony didn't make any decisions. perhaps i can just wave a flag from the touchline or something. Quote: and because i didn't run a clan ladder for renegade means i have no credibility on the subject? i'm not saying i do have credibility on the subject, but that thinking is flawed you should not criticize politicians or what they do because you've never been one yourself - you have no credibility on the subject no, that analogy does not work at all. a politician is your employee. your vote decides who gets the job, your taxes pay their salary, they're (supposed to be, at least) there to serve you. people always compare the clanwars league to a government, and the analogy fails on every level. it's more like a cinema or a bowling alley that the owner lets you use for free. i let you play there, or you could play in someone else's bowling alley, or make your own, or not go bowling at all. if you play in my bowling alley you play by my rules, if i decide that there's no smoking or whatever. you can smoke in someone else's bowling alley for all i care. you can smoke out in the street for all i care. you can make your own bowling alley where smoking is allowed for all i care. in my bowling alley, thou shalt not smoke. Quote: it looks to me that you're insinuating things about people but when i mention it or point it out you call me a liar it's a trap here's what i got from what you were saying: "these people want me to change my ladder but aren't willing to go make their own community to have the proposed changes to my ladder - that makes them douchebags" i also got this: "these people want me to change what i'm doing to cater to their wants instead of thanking me for hosting it - that makes them douchebags" am i incorrect in saying this? i would have thought that you have your hands full enough with things i have said without needing to deal with things i didn't say. Quote: in the past other people have made claims and you dismissed them, but when you made claims you treated them as fact "treated them as fact" is your euphemism for "explained why they were right", and "dismissed them" is your reverse-euphemism for "explained why they were wrong". Quote: one time i remember is when you accused MSGTPain of hating you due to you catching his friends cheating in a community war, and when i asked if you had proof of that you never responded i'd certainly have responded to a question about MSGTPain, unless you're talking about the thread that got locked (with one of my posts bizarrely deleted right before) Quote: Quote: i suppose i'm glad to hear you would agree with me if only you were perceptive enough to see what's right in front of you. it seems to me you've decided that clanwars.cc is entirely represented by simpee and orca one "couldn't be bothered" to host a league whereas the other "wouldn't lower himself to that" i don't believe that all of clanwars.cc can be described by either of these two players and yet you can't point to a clanwars player who actually did DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, can you? like i said, you're focusing too much on their excuses and ignoring the fact that nobody can be found who put in the slightest effort. Quote: how do you know simpee was telling the truth? it's possible he would have liked to but felt it would not work and didn't want to get flak for it i just had the gut feeling that simpee was telling the truth for a change, and his explanation certainly fit the known facts. Quote: Quote: eh? one of the main reasons i hosted the clanwars ladder is because no fucker else on renegade could be bothered. well that was very kind of you didn't people host it before yourself? yes, for quite a significant period of time actually. CLAN WARS set up the league a few months after the game's release (in large part due to the absolute shittiness of Westwood's official clan ladder). that would have been around summer 2002. i didn't become an admin until summer 2005. Quote: perhaps someone else would have had you not stepped in you must have done a good job because after you came along no one else really wanted to try it's hard to square these comments with getting called the "worst admin in history" whenever i make a decision that someone disapproves of Quote: perhaps they thought they could not do a better job than you do or did and that their efforts would be pointless you said yourself that clanwars.cc died because you stopped playing - perhaps there's some validity to my words you're confusing "spoony playing in the league" with "spoony being the admin" Quote: Quote: there you have it, ladies and gentlemen. no rebuttal necessary, the quote speaks for itself. it's a simple question - you claimed that banning soul almost killed renegade at cw.cc i would never say something as ridiculous as that. Quote: i don't disagree with you banning him for breaking a rule but i simply raised a question - do you think the uproar may have been averted had you just let it go and made everyone else happy? what do you mean by "uproar"? the community going apeshit at me and blkstorm? well, we weren't to know what a terrible low the community was about to sink to. Quote: alright, you later covered this, but would it have gotten clanwars.cc off your back? even if it was for entirely wrong reasons? uh no, you've got this totally wrong. the higher-ups thought me and blkst0rm were the only things good enough in the renegade league to justify keeping it alive, precisely because we were playing it by the rules and fairness and honesty instead of just doing whatever these idiots wanted. Quote: Quote: oh dear, you completely changed the subject. nope, i didn't at all change the subject i understand that in your eyes the only people that didn't want the pointmod used in clanwars were the only people that posted in that topic, which you named i believe that may be untrue if it is, we can refer to my earlier statement on the subject. either they couldn't marshal their thoughts to justify their views in the debate thread that the admin specifically put there for their benefit, or they didn't dare join the debate for fear of being proved wrong. in neither case am i going to do what they want. Quote: i still don't know what whiskey thought either way, even if he told you he wanted it used maybe he didn't and wanted to please you i don't think it matters much either way whether he did or not, just saying that's feeble of you. you made so many posts and PMs saying whiskey was obviously only speaking in favour of the pointsfix because he was spoony's renadmin at the time. this was flat out untrue, and you just swallowed the bullshit the anti-pointsfix crowd were putting out at the time; that anybody who likes the pointsfix MUST have some hidden agenda. it's an odd thing to think from someone whose only admissible evidence is "here's how many people like it or don't like it". once again, the game is rigged. Quote: a lot of people don't like posting things if they know they're going to get criticized for it yeah, they like just saying things and expecting it to be accepted without giving anyone the platform to challenge it. Quote: so perhaps they saw simpee and the others trying to tell you why they wanted the original points used and the way you tried to tell them their opinions were wrong and decided against posting at all though since you only care about debate in determining how clanwars.cc is run it wouldn't have mattered either way to you that's right. it's a very similar situation to the "nobody else hosted a clan ladder" scenario. i'm focusing on the complete lack of effort or success, you're focusing on the excuses for that lack - even going so far as to make them on other peoples' behalf. Quote: i just have a hard time understanding why you do what you do, that's all am i not allowed to ask you why you do what you do in regards to running a clan league or tell you why i think it makes no sense because i don't or haven't run one myself? i don't agree with that thinking, and i covered it earlier of course you're allowed to ask, and i'm allowed to reply explaining why it's a stupid question Quote: Quote: as would anyone who could be bothered hosting a pointbugged ladder when, according to you, everyone except me and whiskey wanted one. i think if people were asked who the best person to host a pointbugged ladder in ren would be it would be you maybe that's why they wanted you to do it so badly if only i had gotten some credit for hosting a pointbugged ladder for so long, despite being the biggest opponent of the point bug. Quote: Quote: because they're a bunch of idiots? that's the short answer. don't look so surprised. "why are they acting like idiots?" "because they're idiots" quite simple really Quote: Quote: you're almost on to something here. you don't run a clanwars league for these people so you don't know? indeed. so you know what it's like to not host a league for a bunch of idiots... so you ought to understand what might drive someone else to decide not to as well. fair enough, there are quite a few reasons i can come up with for why more people haven't tried my reason was "i've put up with you ungrateful twats long enough, you treat me like shit despite all the favours i've done for you and you don't deserve any more of my effort" - this reason seemed to be unacceptable to a lot of people Quote: Quote: why didn't you read my detailed and repeated explanations of why i wouldn't play him at the time? didn't you cite that the vehicle alignment issue was the main reason? and that the map wasn't complete without it? if there was more to it please fill me in it just looked to me like you were avoiding it, and i didn't think the vehicle alignment issue would have changed the outcome of the game wow, why don't you pay attention to what the person you're arguing with is saying? i pointed out the colossal flaw in simpee's argument again and again and again. neither of you acknowledged it. simpee was trying to prove two things at the same time - firstly that i sucked at the game, secondly that mesa was unfair. and his way to prove this was to play me on mesa. stop and think for a second. how can you prove one player is great and the other player sucks by arranging a match on a horribly unfair map? conversely, how can you prove mesa is unfair by pitting a great player against a terrible player? there were other reasons i posted at the time, you both ignored them too - such as the fact simpee had already been proven wrong in these pointsfix debates many times already and had shown a pathetic reluctance to avoid admitting it - therefore it wouldn't change a damn thing if he was proven wrong about this too (yet again, the game is rigged). also, i vaguely remember having internet problems at the time, but never mind that. Quote: Quote: you seem reluctant to finish your sentence. the last words that belong on the end are "but they were wrong" i didn't think i had to say that, the fact that they couldn't argue it says just that even though the pointmod makes the game much more fair people still didn't want it used yes, especially those people who had a track record of profiting from unfairness. Quote: Quote: it might be the same thing you thought you would lose by hosting a pointbugged clan ladder for them? which is what? you tell me. i don't want to assume why you didn't do that, do i? Quote: Quote: nobody said they were, though you lied and tried to make it sound like i did. [color=skyblue]you made a point to say that polls were rigged in clanwars multiple times after you mentioned the poll about wanting the pointmod in clanwars what i inferred was you were suggesting this one had been rigged as well no, i was inferring what i actually said, which was "we do not decide policy by polls, we never did, nobody said this poll was important, and anyway the anti-pointsfix crowd has already tried rigging these things in the past" Quote: what i said several times was that just because others in the past had been rigged that this one wasn't necessarily rigged if you never said that it had been rigged then what's the big deal? you're not backing far enough away from your original point, which was "this poll is the only evidence we need to consider" Quote: Quote: i can't tell if that's a serious question or not just because whiskey was the only person who always stood by your side and listened to you does not mean no one else cared or "gave a shit" about clanwars firstly, i've argued more divisively with whiskey over stuff than with almost anyone else at clanwars, so that point falls. secondly, you're totally rephrasing my point again. i didn't say whiskey was the only person who gave a shit about the community because he agreed with me, i said he was one of a very small number of people who actually put any effort into the community, and got nothing but contempt in return Quote: Quote: would that explain the general enthusiasm when i was suspended because a cheater lied his way into my clan? who said they have to like you? oh dear. firstly, a lot of your statements have been along the lines of "you should do what the majority wants". as i've said before, this would mean that one of the worst cheaters in history gets away with it, whereas the fairest and most honest player around is fucked. have fun in a league like that. secondly, i'm not talking about the fact they didn't like me, i'm talking about the fact they supported me being banned purely because of personal dislike, with not even so much as a thought as to what justification there might be for it. Quote: despite them disliking you they stuck around, which you've attributed to them being too lazy to make their own league don't say "stuck around" as if there's anything praiseworthy there... they carried on accepting my charity? Quote: Quote: still, carry on making excuses for these people if you like. the fact remains that none of them came up with the goods, and you attacked the only person who did. what if no one else was capable? if you're the only one that can honestly do it then what? i can't see anyone else running a clan league for renegade excuse me, but if you're capable of saying "here's what i think the rule on this matter should be" you're capable of being an admin and making that rule. and if the anti-pointsfix crowd was as enormous as you've decided that it is (though on what evidence i'm not quite sure) then you'd think that they could easily club together to outdo someone who knows as little about coding as i do. Quote: Quote: having a debate thread at all is more generous than they have a reason to expect; i could just say "here's spoony's decision the madder, live with it" and lock the thread, as i was advised by quite a few people to do instead of actually talking to these idiots. why do that though? that would be no fun for you are you kidding? it'd be more fun if i DIDN'T put myself through those debates. it's depressing how stupid most of the other participants were, depressing having to repeat myself again and again because they just weren't reading what the person they're arguing with was saying, depressing watching so many people lie through their teeth to try to get what they wanted, etc etc etc Quote: Quote: i've been asked the same question before, but in a more threatening tone. alright, but that doesn't answer the question would you be content with your decision even if it emptied out your community? if something that improved the level of fairness in the league made people who'd already proven their preference for unfairness leave, this would probably have made me realise even sooner what a waste of effort the community was. that's a result, i suppose. Quote: Quote: no? that was the first time you seemed to acknowledge the fact that the anti-pointsfix crowd at clanwars had been caught rigging polls like that before, despite the innumerable times i kept pointing it out to you and you obviously didn't care. no - i believed you on that, without actually having seen it myself, but you mentioned it numerous times after mentioning that specific poll it looked to me like you were saying that that poll had been rigged, and that's why several times i've stated that i don't believe that because other polls were rigged in the past that that poll had been rigged you never actually said it, but again it appeared you were clearly hinting at it i think i still haven't made myself clear that i couldn't have cared less whether the poll was rigged or not, because i never said it was important. the only thing a rigged poll demonstrates is the dishonesty of the other side of the argument, although that had been obvious for a very long time. Quote: in the case of the pointmod what was the point? if you made a topic where people were supposed to prove why it's more fair when you already know it's unfair you're just lying a trap out with the intention of slapping people around see, this is the curse of renegade debates... people are always trying to make things that aren't bad sound bad. the fact i went to great lengths to encourage debate and listened to what everyone said and replied to every post... that's good. the fact i was willing to put the question to the test is a good thing, and it doesn't become a bad thing because the other side of the debate fared so badly. Quote: was your topic made to ask whether people wanted to use the pointmod or whether people thought it was more fair? more fair, better for the league, etc. "do you prefer this" seems like a waste of a question to me, though i might ask "why do you prefer it" Quote: Quote: i know you don't, because it logically makes you much more of a douche than i could ever be, and given the sheer number of times you've called me a douche for this reason it would make you the most colossal douche in the world. pfft if the reason no one else has tried to make a clan ladder, over the pointmod issue or any other issue, was solely due to people "not giving a shit" then i would have no problem agreeing with you i'm not so sure that's the case i'm still not sure why Quote: Quote: from you and from the people you were so enthusiastically defending, it was absolutely true. that's probably true, and i don't know enough to prove it otherwise for the record i honestly think it's great that you hosted a league for renegade throughout the years, even if you've never gotten that from me that's right, it is odd that this didn't appear as a counterpoint to "you're a douche because it's not being done in this particular way" Quote: what i was trying to get at is that since you felt their opinions were not valid (or as you say WRONG) that they do not matter when it comes to changing the rules of a league, they don't matter enough. the opinion of someone who's right is worth more than the opinion of someone who's wrong. let me illustrate it with a hypothetical. question: should base to base be allowed on islands with a MRLS? someone says: yes, because nod can buy a MRLS and do the same thing spoony: uh no, nod can't do that. someone: stfu you should respect my opinion spoony: you're factually wrong here someone: STFU MY OPINION IS WORTH AS MUCH AS YOURS no, the someone else's vote should not count as much as mine, because i'm right and he's wrong, and this is exactly what happened in the pointsfix debates. Quote: Quote: i don't remember saying i EXPECTED anyone from clanwars to behave maturely? you didn't say it, i just assumed it's what you meant and addressed it as such if it's not then don't worry about it but did you expect it? more or less? no? Quote: Quote: it was obvious they didn't think i'd have such an easy time proving they were lying. yet they still put it out there perhaps it was what they honestly thought and you set the record straight for them - if so then that's good, right? if that was the case they'd have been grateful for pointing out how crashingly wrong they were, and they'd have been relieved to learn that the guy who they thought was such a corrupt admin was in fact very honest. this was not their reaction at all, in case you missed it. that's just talking about their accusations against me (which were, of course, all untrue). now let's look at my counter-accusations against them (which were all true, though they denied them). what is your theory for why they denied them? do you think they might have been equally honest in that case?
this thread is less entertaining than promised.
G'day lads. Yes I was initially against the pointsfix. I tried it out, and something seemed off about tank battles. I realized that we weren't receiving enough points for tank battles because of the 'eject from tank last second to avoid opponent getting points' exploit. It wasn't a problem before when everyone was receiving too many points for hitting green tanks anyway, but now that the pointsfix corrected that, we weren't receiving enough. I told Spoony about this and he got somebody to develop a fix for that as well. Since then, Kill & I played a lot of clanwars with the pointsfix and 'tankfix' or whatever you call it, and we both ended up liking it afterall. It changed the gameplay to favor aggression, but at the same time you couldn't be as sloppy since it was a little harder to receive credits. The points you were awarded actually made sense. As for Spoony & I, Yea we've gotten along fine and agree with most things for a long time, but that wasn't always the case. One time I didn't agree with Spoony banning Soul (I think this was the 2nd or 3rd time of Soul getting banned) so I ended up buying the league entirely and unbanning him. Spoony wasn't too happy about that lol. But in time, we put aside our grievences and I ended up being admin @ clanwars for a long time. I think I've filed about 1000 AR's lol. I see Spoony as someone who actually cared about Renegade and has always put in the effort to run the clanwars league as best as he could, and I respect him for that. Do we agree on everything? No. I didn't agree with the way the Clear/Simpee situation was dealt with, for example.
My posts don't belong here, I don't care about liquids menopause, I was talking about the ladder (for which I initially started the topic about), and not their little hissy fit.
"Liquid trying to understand British logic" LOL. Best thread title ever. Also, I now realize my mistake for bringing up pointsfix.
GoTWhisKéY wrote on Mon, 01 November 2010 10:27 G'day lads. Yes I was initially against the pointsfix. I tried it out, and something seemed off about tank battles. I realized that we weren't receiving enough points for tank battles because of the 'eject from tank last second to avoid opponent getting points' exploit. It wasn't a problem before when everyone was receiving too many points for hitting green tanks anyway, but now that the pointsfix corrected that, we weren't receiving enough. I told Spoony about this and he got somebody to develop a fix for that as well. Since then, Kill & I played a lot of clanwars with the pointsfix and 'tankfix' or whatever you call it, and we both ended up liking it afterall. It changed the gameplay to favor aggression, but at the same time you couldn't be as sloppy since it was a little harder to receive credits. The points you were awarded actually made sense. As for Spoony & I, Yea we've gotten along fine and agree with most things for a long time, but that wasn't always the case. One time I didn't agree with Spoony banning Soul (I think this was the 2nd or 3rd time of Soul getting banned) so I ended up buying the league entirely and unbanning him. Spoony wasn't too happy about that lol. But in time, we put aside our grievences and I ended up being admin @ clanwars for a long time. I think I've filed about 1000 AR's lol. I see Spoony as someone who actually cared about Renegade and has always put in the effort to run the clanwars league as best as he could, and I respect him for that. Do we agree on everything? No. I didn't agree with the way the Clear/Simpee situation was dealt with, for example. did the amount you get for vehicle alignment make that much of a difference? it seems like absolute crap after playing with the original points for so long i'd have absolutely no beef with the pointmod if players had an easier time adapting to it but realistically they're not patient enough to earn what they need that's why lots of players play in st0rm servers with 1000 starting credits and extra + faster harv income...and their overall gameplay is fairly bad in comparison and one problem for that vehicle alignment fix is it causes lag in games anywhere near a large size (in clanwars it's fine but in servers even 10vs10 or higher it becomes a huge lag issue)
Quote: i think you're focusing too much on the excuses and not enough on the complete absence of effort or results. i'm explaining why i feel there may have been an absence just saying "no one gave a shit" could be entirely true, but i like to think that it's not the case and my suggestions make sense Quote: why? i don't have magic powers, i don't have access to some source of wisdom that's denied everyone else. if your statement boils down to "you're the only one with the sufficient dedication" then it doesn't belong in an argument against me, does it? not really an argument that makes logical sense, no Quote: uh no, letting him play was what probably would've caused that. like i said, the global admins thought that me and blkst0rm were the only decent people in a community that was - aside from we two - a complete cesspool and not at all worth CLAN WARS's resources to host. the exception were the two admins who ran things as fairly as we did no matter how retarded the general community was being at the time. alright, so it could have it was possible, but not certain i wouldn't call it a cesspool but it seems odd that no one else felt he should be banned or didn't speak up about it Quote: well, if the entire anti-pointsfix crowd (everyone except me and whiskey, supposedly) clubbed together and still couldn't with their combined might do better than spoony, you might think this would make people think that spoony's doing something right and perhaps, just perhaps, his decisions are worth some respect. in time Quote: instead we seem to've had a situation where the community needed spoony to survive just as long as spoony didn't make any decisions. perhaps i can just wave a flag from the touchline or something. Quote: no, that analogy does not work at all. a politician is your employee. your vote decides who gets the job, your taxes pay their salary, they're (supposed to be, at least) there to serve you. people always compare the clanwars league to a government, and the analogy fails on every level. it's more like a cinema or a bowling alley that the owner lets you use for free. i let you play there, or you could play in someone else's bowling alley, or make your own, or not go bowling at all. if you play in my bowling alley you play by my rules, if i decide that there's no smoking or whatever. you can smoke in someone else's bowling alley for all i care. you can smoke out in the street for all i care. you can make your own bowling alley where smoking is allowed for all i care. in my bowling alley, thou shalt not smoke. what if a poll was held and smoking beat not smoking? Quote: i would have thought that you have your hands full enough with things i have said without needing to deal with things i didn't say. i pick up on other things whether you intended them or not some things you probably didn't even think of or mean at all, which is why i asked to be sure Quote: "treated them as fact" is your euphemism for "explained why they were right", and "dismissed them" is your reverse-euphemism for "explained why they were wrong". i disagree, but i don't have an example so i'll drop it Quote: i'd certainly have responded to a question about MSGTPain, unless you're talking about the thread that got locked (with one of my posts bizarrely deleted right before) nah, i'm pretty sure it was in a PM Quote: and yet you can't point to a clanwars player who actually did DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, can you? like i said, you're focusing too much on their excuses and ignoring the fact that nobody can be found who put in the slightest effort. this is true - none of them tried to make their own league there may be more reasons for that than simply "they didn't care" but it doesn't matter since your point is "it never happened" Quote: i just had the gut feeling that simpee was telling the truth for a change, and his explanation certainly fit the known facts. pfft, your gut or your mind thinking simpee's finally telling the truth about something because it betters your argument your gut is full of Lies, and straw Quote: yes, for quite a significant period of time actually. CLAN WARS set up the league a few months after the game's release (in large part due to the absolute shittiness of Westwood's official clan ladder). that would have been around summer 2002. i didn't become an admin until summer 2005. cool renehistory so how did they run things before you came along? Quote: it's hard to square these comments with getting called the "worst admin in history" whenever i make a decision that someone disapproves of you couldn't have been that bad because no one got up and made their own Spoony-free clanwars league Quote: you're confusing "spoony playing in the league" with "spoony being the admin" i thought you said stopped playing, and that people asked you all the time but that you declined fine, that makes sense all you're doing is strengthening my statement that "Spoony is clanwars" Quote: i would never say something as ridiculous as that. then what was it that you were saying? that not banning Soul may have been the end of Renegade at cw.cc? it didn't click in my head until you explained it earlier, i was thinking they wanted to cut Renegade out because of the bickering and bitching on the forums and that had you just let it go it all would have subsided my mistake; carry on Quote: what do you mean by "uproar"? the community going apeshit at me and blkstorm? well, we weren't to know what a terrible low the community was about to sink to. yes! Quote: uh no, you've got this totally wrong. the higher-ups thought me and blkst0rm were the only things good enough in the renegade league to justify keeping it alive, precisely because we were playing it by the rules and fairness and honesty instead of just doing whatever these idiots wanted. i understand it just took a while Quote: if it is, we can refer to my earlier statement on the subject. either they couldn't marshal their thoughts to justify their views in the debate thread that the admin specifically put there for their benefit, or they didn't dare join the debate for fear of being proved wrong. in neither case am i going to do what they want. i dare say that you are Mean Quote: that's feeble of you. you made so many posts and PMs saying whiskey was obviously only speaking in favour of the pointsfix because he was spoony's renadmin at the time. this was flat out untrue, and you just swallowed the bullshit the anti-pointsfix crowd were putting out at the time; that anybody who likes the pointsfix MUST have some hidden agenda. it's an odd thing to think from someone whose only admissible evidence is "here's how many people like it or don't like it". once again, the game is rigged. if that's true then it was wrong of me and i was mistaken Quote: yeah, they like just saying things and expecting it to be accepted without giving anyone the platform to challenge it. a lot of the time Quote: that's right. it's a very similar situation to the "nobody else hosted a clan ladder" scenario. i'm focusing on the complete lack of effort or success, you're focusing on the excuses for that lack - even going so far as to make them on other peoples' behalf. i can't change the fact that it didn't happen, but i'm open to the idea that your reasons as to why may be incorrect Quote: of course you're allowed to ask, and i'm allowed to reply explaining why it's a stupid question booooooooo Quote: if only i had gotten some credit for hosting a pointbugged ladder for so long, despite being the biggest opponent of the point bug. that's true generosity, giving something expecting nothing in return Quote: don't look so surprised. "why are they acting like idiots?" "because they're idiots" quite simple really more like =O that's not a nice thing to say Quote: my reason was "i've put up with you ungrateful twats long enough, you treat me like shit despite all the favours i've done for you and you don't deserve any more of my effort" - this reason seemed to be unacceptable to a lot of people cuz they loved you and didn't want to see you go, duh even though they were mean to you clanwars is a violent relationship, that's all Quote: wow, why don't you pay attention to what the person you're arguing with is saying? i just told you that i read them and cannot remember what they were, though i believe one was the lack of a vehicle alignment fix at the time i'm telling you what i thought at the time after having read your post i suppose the other reasons are irrelevant because you never played him Quote: i pointed out the colossal flaw in simpee's argument again and again and again. neither of you acknowledged it. simpee was trying to prove two things at the same time - firstly that i sucked at the game, secondly that mesa was unfair. and his way to prove this was to play me on mesa. stop and think for a second. how can you prove one player is great and the other player sucks by arranging a match on a horribly unfair map? conversely, how can you prove mesa is unfair by pitting a great player against a terrible player? oh yeah, he wanted to do it on Mesa, not Mesa2 see, you're helping Quote: there were other reasons i posted at the time, you both ignored them too - such as the fact simpee had already been proven wrong in these pointsfix debates many times already and had shown a pathetic reluctance to admitting it - therefore it wouldn't change a damn thing if he was proven wrong about this too (yet again, the game is rigged). fair enough Quote: also, i vaguely remember having internet problems at the time, but never mind that. thought you were one of those "get the job done" people HMMMMM?! Quote: yes, especially those people who had a track record of profiting from unfairness. that's not really relevant though, it seems like a way for you to justify their differing opinions not meaning anything what if only the respectable, clean track record clanwars players had supported using the original points and the rapist genocide club had wanted the original points? Quote: you tell me. i don't want to assume why you didn't do that, do i? i figure you already have, and since i don't know i asked you i'll say lemonade because it's a tasty beverage Quote: no, i was inferring what i actually said, which was "we do not decide policy by polls, we never did, nobody said this poll was important, and anyway the anti-pointsfix crowd has already tried rigging these things in the past" alright more reasons why you don't use polls instead of a reason why this one came out a certain way, which is what i thought you were on about Quote: you're not backing far enough away from your original point, which was "this poll is the only evidence we need to consider" you make me sound really stupid or something ;\ Quote: oh dear. see the violent relationship quote above Quote: firstly, a lot of your statements have been along the lines of "you should do what the majority wants". as i've said before, this would mean that one of the worst cheaters in history gets away with it, whereas the fairest and most honest player around is fucked. have fun in a league like that. secondly, i'm not talking about the fact they didn't like me, i'm talking about the fact they supported me being banned purely because of personal dislike, with not even so much as a thought as to what justification there might be for it. this means they would not have made good clanwars admins, based on your previous teachings Quote: don't say "stuck around" as if there's anything praiseworthy there... they carried on accepting my charity? is that not what you intended for people to do when you hosted a league for them? you act as if they're in the wrong for playing there Quote: excuse me, but if you're capable of saying "here's what i think the rule on this matter should be" you're capable of being an admin and making that rule. and if the anti-pointsfix crowd was as enormous as you've decided that it is (though on what evidence i'm not quite sure) then you'd think that they could easily club together to outdo someone who knows as little about coding as i do. i felt that the way renegade was scored should be what the players wanted, but i didn't think that all rules or decisions should be decided by the players so if what you say is true i'm capable of being an admin and making that rule, but then what? it falls apart because it stops there either way what i say previously remains true - there is no clanwars without Spoony you're welcome to disprove that if you can Quote: are you kidding? it'd be more fun if i DIDN'T put myself through those debates. it's depressing how stupid most of the other participants were, depressing having to repeat myself again and again because they just weren't reading what the person they're arguing with was saying, depressing watching so many people lie through their teeth to try to get what they wanted, etc etc etc the whole intellectual sparring thing was lost you say? bah, i say Quote: if something that improved the level of fairness in the league made people who'd already proven their preference for unfairness leave, this would probably have made me realise even sooner what a waste of effort the community was. that's a result, i suppose. i don't think it was a waste of effort, and i'm sure the people who played there wouldn't say that if they did they would be lying Quote: see, this is the curse of renegade debates... people are always trying to make things that aren't bad sound bad. the fact i went to great lengths to encourage debate and listened to what everyone said and replied to every post... that's good. the fact i was willing to put the question to the test is a good thing, and it doesn't become a bad thing because the other side of the debate fared so badly. was it just a way to assure that you were correct on the issue then? so they couldn't come back later and say that? Quote: more fair, better for the league, etc. "do you prefer this" seems like a waste of a question to me, though i might ask "why do you prefer it" i understand it just seems harsh that all comes with the business of clanwars i suppose Quote: that's right, it is odd that this didn't appear as a counterpoint to "you're a douche because it's not being done in this particular way" it still seems douchey to me, on principle but does it make the game more fair, and could it potentially better the league? sure perhaps to do the right thing in this case you had to be a douche maybe in the end when it all worked out you wouldn't have seemed like a douche Quote: when it comes to changing the rules of a league, they don't matter enough. the opinion of someone who's right is worth more than the opinion of someone who's wrong. let me illustrate it with a hypothetical. question: should base to base be allowed on islands with a MRLS? someone says: yes, because nod can buy a MRLS and do the same thing spoony: uh no, nod can't do that. someone: stfu you should respect my opinion spoony: you're factually wrong here someone: STFU MY OPINION IS WORTH AS MUCH AS YOURS no, the someone else's vote should not count as much as mine, because i'm right and he's wrong, and this is exactly what happened in the pointsfix debates. that was awesome Quote: no? you seemed surprised to me that people in clanwars were the way they were; that's why i asked Quote: if that was the case they'd have been grateful for pointing out how crashingly wrong they were, and they'd have been relieved to learn that the guy who they thought was such a corrupt admin was in fact very honest. this was not their reaction at all, in case you missed it. that's just talking about their accusations against me (which were, of course, all untrue). now let's look at my counter-accusations against them (which were all true, though they denied them). what is your theory for why they denied them? do you think they might have been equally honest in that case? they could have been but they were not maybe their dislike for you made it impossible shame on you for making good guys like simpee and clearsh0t hate you!
Quote: did the amount you get for vehicle alignment make that much of a difference? it seems like absolute crap after playing with the original points for so long in many cases the amount lost by the jump-out-of-your-tank-at-the-last-second exploit was actually more than the amount subtracted by the pointsfix. Quote: i'd have absolutely no beef with the pointmod if players had an easier time adapting to it but realistically they're not patient enough to earn what they need that's why lots of players play in st0rm servers with 1000 starting credits and extra + faster harv income...and their overall gameplay is fairly bad in comparison Dont Get It the extra credits is a more sensible way of solving the problem some players have. if you want to be able to afford whatever you want no matter how badly you're being thrashed, you should just say so. up the credits instead of using this fucking dumb mod where you have to shoot a light tank with an auto rifle when you could be doing something important instead. Quote: and one problem for that vehicle alignment fix is it causes lag in games anywhere near a large size (in clanwars it's fine but in servers even 10vs10 or higher it becomes a huge lag issue) ? that surprises me Quote: Quote: why? i don't have magic powers, i don't have access to some source of wisdom that's denied everyone else. if your statement boils down to "you're the only one with the sufficient dedication" then it doesn't belong in an argument against me, does it? not really an argument that makes logical sense, no oh, it makes sense, it just ought to be pointed towards everyone except me instead of me Quote: Quote: uh no, letting him play was what probably would've caused that. like i said, the global admins thought that me and blkst0rm were the only decent people in a community that was - aside from we two - a complete cesspool and not at all worth CLAN WARS's resources to host. the exception were the two admins who ran things as fairly as we did no matter how retarded the general community was being at the time. alright, so it could have it was possible, but not certain i wouldn't call it a cesspool but it seems odd that no one else felt he should be banned or didn't speak up about it other than the higher-up admins at clanwars, i can only think of two people besides myself and blkst0rm who agreed with the ban, both of whom said so on MSN rather than the forum. Quote: what if a poll was held and smoking beat not smoking? held by who? the bowling alley owner who specifically chose to let the community have a vote? or just some guy from the community who got the weird idea that he's entitled to one? if it's the latter then this is what makes it such a joke that people call it "democracy". they're actually trying to take someone's privately owned property and turn its control over to "the people". call it what it is, it's communism. Quote: Quote: i would have thought that you have your hands full enough with things i have said without needing to deal with things i didn't say. i pick up on other things whether you intended them or not some things you probably didn't even think of or mean at all, which is why i asked to be sure you seem to be wrong about these things you "pick up on" quite a lot, though Quote: Quote: and yet you can't point to a clanwars player who actually did DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, can you? like i said, you're focusing too much on their excuses and ignoring the fact that nobody can be found who put in the slightest effort. this is true - none of them tried to make their own league there may be more reasons for that than simply "they didn't care" but it doesn't matter since your point is "it never happened" yes, that is the most important part of the equation... by far. Quote: Quote: i just had the gut feeling that simpee was telling the truth for a change, and his explanation certainly fit the known facts. pfft, your gut or your mind thinking simpee's finally telling the truth about something because it betters your argument your gut is full of Lies, and straw you ever heard of Occam's Razor? Quote: Quote: yes, for quite a significant period of time actually. CLAN WARS set up the league a few months after the game's release (in large part due to the absolute shittiness of Westwood's official clan ladder). that would have been around summer 2002. i didn't become an admin until summer 2005. cool renehistory so how did they run things before you came along? if you mean did they decide policy by poll threads, no they didn't Quote: Quote: it's hard to square these comments with getting called the "worst admin in history" whenever i make a decision that someone disapproves of you couldn't have been that bad because no one got up and made their own Spoony-free clanwars league i can see we're never going to agree on why that was, are we? Quote: Quote: if it is, we can refer to my earlier statement on the subject. either they couldn't marshal their thoughts to justify their views in the debate thread that the admin specifically put there for their benefit, or they didn't dare join the debate for fear of being proved wrong. in neither case am i going to do what they want. i dare say that you are Mean it's better than just making your admin decision and then locking the thread and ignoring what anyone says about it, and that's better than not hosting a league at all Quote: Quote: i pointed out the colossal flaw in simpee's argument again and again and again. neither of you acknowledged it. simpee was trying to prove two things at the same time - firstly that i sucked at the game, secondly that mesa was unfair. and his way to prove this was to play me on mesa. stop and think for a second. how can you prove one player is great and the other player sucks by arranging a match on a horribly unfair map? conversely, how can you prove mesa is unfair by pitting a great player against a terrible player? oh yeah, he wanted to do it on Mesa, not Mesa2 see, you're helping Quote: there were other reasons i posted at the time, you both ignored them too - such as the fact simpee had already been proven wrong in these pointsfix debates many times already and had shown a pathetic reluctance to admitting it - therefore it wouldn't change a damn thing if he was proven wrong about this too (yet again, the game is rigged). fair enough why didn't any of this get through to you at the time? i've certainly said all of this before. Quote: Quote: yes, especially those people who had a track record of profiting from unfairness. that's not really relevant though, it seems like a way for you to justify their differing opinions not meaning anything not relevant? here comes a change that makes the game fairer, and everyone who liked to profit from unfairness is angry at the change. Quote: what if only the respectable, clean track record clanwars players had supported using the original points and the rapist genocide club had wanted the original points? i assume you mean what if the clean track record players wanted the bug and the cheaters wanted the pointsfix? Quote: Quote: no, i was inferring what i actually said, which was "we do not decide policy by polls, we never did, nobody said this poll was important, and anyway the anti-pointsfix crowd has already tried rigging these things in the past" alright more reasons why you don't use polls instead of a reason why this one came out a certain way, which is what i thought you were on about see how far you get by reading what i say instead of trying to figure out what i might be thinking but not saying? i've pissed an enormous number of people off by never shying away from saying what i mean... Quote: Quote: firstly, a lot of your statements have been along the lines of "you should do what the majority wants". as i've said before, this would mean that one of the worst cheaters in history gets away with it, whereas the fairest and most honest player around is fucked. have fun in a league like that. secondly, i'm not talking about the fact they didn't like me, i'm talking about the fact they supported me being banned purely because of personal dislike, with not even so much as a thought as to what justification there might be for it. this means they would not have made good clanwars admins, based on your previous teachings well observed Quote: Quote: don't say "stuck around" as if there's anything praiseworthy there... they carried on accepting my charity? is that not what you intended for people to do when you hosted a league for them? you act as if they're in the wrong for playing there no, i didn't say that, i said there isn't anything praiseworthy in it. Quote: Quote: excuse me, but if you're capable of saying "here's what i think the rule on this matter should be" you're capable of being an admin and making that rule. and if the anti-pointsfix crowd was as enormous as you've decided that it is (though on what evidence i'm not quite sure) then you'd think that they could easily club together to outdo someone who knows as little about coding as i do. i felt that the way renegade was scored should be what the players wanted, but i didn't think that all rules or decisions should be decided by the players how do you work that out? Quote: Quote: are you kidding? it'd be more fun if i DIDN'T put myself through those debates. it's depressing how stupid most of the other participants were, depressing having to repeat myself again and again because they just weren't reading what the person they're arguing with was saying, depressing watching so many people lie through their teeth to try to get what they wanted, etc etc etc the whole intellectual sparring thing was lost you say? bah, i say sometimes it's fun against a worthy opponent. it's usually depressing when it's against someone who makes a bucket of pigshit look clever Quote: Quote: if something that improved the level of fairness in the league made people who'd already proven their preference for unfairness leave, this would probably have made me realise even sooner what a waste of effort the community was. that's a result, i suppose. i don't think it was a waste of effort, and i'm sure the people who played there wouldn't say that if they did they would be lying well, if they think it's worth their effort, it reinforces my point that one of them ought to have put some in. Quote: was it just a way to assure that you were correct on the issue then? so they couldn't come back later and say that? i can see you're not going to easily digest the idea that open debate on a particular question is a good thing for its own sake.
Spoony is a freakin annoying ass troll, Liquid can't let it go, and troop is somehow still managing to get dumber by the fucking second. Meanwhile the mods of this section aren't even willing to read all of the stupid ass spam quotes. Lovely topic!
Quote: oh, it makes sense, it just ought to be pointed towards everyone except me instead of me that's a different argument Quote: other than the higher-up admins at clanwars, i can only think of two people besides myself and blkst0rm who agreed with the ban, both of whom said so on MSN rather than the forum. see, it still had hope Quote: held by who? the bowling alley owner who specifically chose to let the community have a vote? or just some guy from the community who got the weird idea that he's entitled to one? a random supporter of smoking, of course that was a joke by the way Quote: if it's the latter then this is what makes it such a joke that people call it "democracy". they're actually trying to take someone's privately owned property and turn its control over to "the people". call it what it is, it's communism. just put a slick hammer and sickle emblem on the top banner and you're good to go Quote: you seem to be wrong about these things you "pick up on" quite a lot, though and it's good that you can clear it up when i am, i appreciate it Quote: yes, that is the most important part of the equation... by far. i suppose, since all else is reduced to speculation Quote: you ever heard of Occam's Razor? sounds like a quest item in Zelda: Ocarnia of Time i don't disagree, i'm sure simpee meant it when he said he didn't want to host a clan league it's not something that people generally do, and actually uncommon Quote: if you mean did they decide policy by poll threads, no they didn't i guess it's understandable Quote: i can see we're never going to agree on why that was, are we? who knows, but it most likely does not matter why no one else has tried in recent years to make a non-Spoony clanwars league i'm under the assumption that many people think you're pretty good at it and doubt they could do better so they don't bother trying Quote: it's better than just making your admin decision and then locking the thread and ignoring what anyone says about it, and that's better than not hosting a league at all that's not your style, though and sure, people would disagree with that, but in the end no one is making them play there Quote: not relevant? it just clicked - i was thinking something completely different we're good Quote: i assume you mean what if the clean track record players wanted the bug and the cheaters wanted the pointsfix? yah, i got too used to saying one thing what then? Quote: see how far you get by reading what i say instead of trying to figure out what i might be thinking but not saying? i've pissed an enormous number of people off by never shying away from saying what i mean... it's in secret subliminal spoony code or something Quote: no, i didn't say that, i said there isn't anything praiseworthy in it. i suppose not Quote: how do you work that out? i don't know, i think i thought it made sense at the time Quote: sometimes it's fun against a worthy opponent. it's usually depressing when it's against someone who makes a bucket of pigshit look clever that's not a very nice thing to say Quote: well, if they think it's worth their effort, it reinforces my point that one of them ought to have put some in. how could a regular player put in effort? in what way do you mean, by assuming Whiskey's role as renadmin? Quote: i can see you're not going to easily digest the idea that open debate on a particular question is a good thing for its own sake. i just assume you have some evil intention because you're British and you seem to enjoy debates in general some people have fun in winning things, even if their opponents are terrible are you one of those people?
Quote: Quote: other than the higher-up admins at clanwars, i can only think of two people besides myself and blkst0rm who agreed with the ban, both of whom said so on MSN rather than the forum. see, it still had hope yes, despite the "majority". Quote: Quote: yes, that is the most important part of the equation... by far. i suppose, since all else is reduced to speculation except in the quite large number of cases where we know why people won't host a clan league. you'd be surprised how much contempt most clanwars players have for anyone willing to put any time or money into hosting a server or whatever. and yet even if everyone had perfectly noble reasons for not hosting a clan ladder, the fact that they weren't hosting them would still be the important part of the equation instead of the why of it. Quote: Quote: i assume you mean what if the clean track record players wanted the bug and the cheaters wanted the pointsfix? yah, i got too used to saying one thing what then? then it's possible that might make me reconsider. Quote: Quote: well, if they think it's worth their effort, it reinforces my point that one of them ought to have put some in. how could a regular player put in effort? in what way do you mean, by assuming Whiskey's role as renadmin? yes, applying for the renadmin job and doing a diligent job of it would certainly be one way of putting effort it. and yet despite how many times i tried recruiting one, not many people applied and even fewer turned out to be any good. Quote: Quote: i can see you're not going to easily digest the idea that open debate on a particular question is a good thing for its own sake. i just assume you have some evil intention because you're British and you seem to enjoy debates in general some people have fun in winning things, even if their opponents are terrible are you one of those people? i do think free, open debate is a good thing. i also like being proven right, though there is value in being proven wrong (cos you come out of it knowing more than you did before). of course, there are a depressing number of people who can't stand being proven wrong (look at hate, he's still angry and it's been some months)
HaTe wrote on Mon, 01 November 2010 18:40 Spoony is a freakin annoying ass troll, Liquid can't let it go, and troop is somehow still managing to get dumber by the fucking second. Meanwhile the mods of this section aren't even willing to read all of the stupid ass spam quotes. Lovely topic! Didn't you challenge me to 1v1 ctf/build match while being serious lol? gg.
Quote: except in the quite large number of cases where we know why people won't host a clan league. you'd be surprised how much contempt most clanwars players have for anyone willing to put any time or money into hosting a server or whatever. maybe has something to do with them not fully understanding or grasping the fact that you own the thing and that it's not there without you like how some people are under the assumption that Renegade has its own servers, like EA hosts them or something like that Quote: yes, applying for the renadmin job and doing a diligent job of it would certainly be one way of putting effort it. and yet despite how many times i tried recruiting one, not many people applied and even fewer turned out to be any good. maybe that's not the best environment for recruiting an admin in the first place and that being said you can hardly blame them, they're there purely for the competition i'm sure Quote: i do think free, open debate is a good thing. i also like being proven right, though there is value in being proven wrong (cos you come out of it knowing more than you did before). that's why i appreciate you going back and forth with me over issues such as this
trooprm02 wrote on Mon, 01 November 2010 22:15 HaTe wrote on Mon, 01 November 2010 18:40 Spoony is a freakin annoying ass troll, Liquid can't let it go, and troop is somehow still managing to get dumber by the fucking second. Meanwhile the mods of this section aren't even willing to read all of the stupid ass spam quotes. Lovely topic! Didn't you challenge me to 1v1 ctf/build match while being serious lol? gg. I challenged you to 1v1 coop. Stop proving my point. You dodged either way....which is a bit pathetic to be completely honest with you.
How now brown cow.
HaTe wrote on Tue, 02 November 2010 19:21 trooprm02 wrote on Mon, 01 November 2010 22:15 HaTe wrote on Mon, 01 November 2010 18:40 Spoony is a freakin annoying ass troll, Liquid can't let it go, and troop is somehow still managing to get dumber by the fucking second. Meanwhile the mods of this section aren't even willing to read all of the stupid ass spam quotes. Lovely topic! Didn't you challenge me to 1v1 ctf/build match while being serious lol? gg. I challenged you to 1v1 coop. Stop proving my point. You dodged either way....which is a bit pathetic to be completely honest with you. Your awful at this game, have dodged me countless times, not even sure why you still post here: http://img35.imageshack.us/f/hatedodge.png/ ^LOL
trooprm02 wrote on Tue, 02 November 2010 23:01 HaTe wrote on Tue, 02 November 2010 19:21 trooprm02 wrote on Mon, 01 November 2010 22:15 HaTe wrote on Mon, 01 November 2010 18:40 Spoony is a freakin annoying ass troll, Liquid can't let it go, and troop is somehow still managing to get dumber by the fucking second. Meanwhile the mods of this section aren't even willing to read all of the stupid ass spam quotes. Lovely topic! Didn't you challenge me to 1v1 ctf/build match while being serious lol? gg. I challenged you to 1v1 coop. Stop proving my point. You dodged either way....which is a bit pathetic to be completely honest with you. Your awful at this game, have dodged me countless times, not even sure why you still post here: http://img35.imageshack.us/f/hatedodge.png/ ^LOL LOL 1v1 coop HAHAHAAHAHA hate is an idiot
lol let's 1v1 campaign, he who beats it first wins!
SSADMVR wrote on Wed, 03 November 2010 08:38 lol let's 1v1 campaign, he who beats it first wins! On what difficulty setting???
If you get a 1v1 challenge from someone even remotely half-decent, then why dodge? Get on and play and even if you lose you learn something or gain more experience. Then you see what they did to win. That's how I look at it anyhow...
Troop, the world would like to inform you that "1 vs 1 in C&C Renegade" is not the ultimate measure of a person.
Troop really doesn't understand the sarcasm in it.....I'm a bit embarrassed that I assumed he was smarter than he actually is. My mistake. I like how he says I've dodged him countless times when I've literally seen him twice in Renegade ever.....and he blew ass both times, even accusing me of cheating one of them. I love Renegade.
Why does troop think and act like he's a clanwars player? I don't think I've ever competed against him... and if you haven't competed against H2O, then you weren't a clanwar player. (unless you were from the 2002-2003 days)
HaTe wrote on Wed, 03 November 2010 11:46 Troop really doesn't understand the sarcasm in it.....I'm a bit embarrassed that I assumed he was smarter than he actually is. My mistake. I like how he says I've dodged him countless times when I've literally seen him twice in Renegade ever.....and he blew ass both times, even accusing me of cheating one of them. I love Renegade. lol hate is SO dumb, hey hate, dodge troop some more pussy
Rocko wrote on Wed, 03 November 2010 23:06 HaTe wrote on Wed, 03 November 2010 11:46 Troop really doesn't understand the sarcasm in it.....I'm a bit embarrassed that I assumed he was smarter than he actually is. My mistake. I like how he says I've dodged him countless times when I've literally seen him twice in Renegade ever.....and he blew ass both times, even accusing me of cheating one of them. I love Renegade. lol hate is SO dumb, hey hate, dodge troop some more pussy Liek even I played troop. :V
GoTWhisKéY wrote on Wed, 03 November 2010 15:14 I don't think I've ever competed against him... Dodge confession!
CarrierII wrote on Wed, 03 November 2010 14:00 Troop, the world would like to inform you that "1 vs 1 in C&C Renegade" is not the ultimate measure of a person. I disagree. @starbuzz, exactly but most people (like HaTe) just care too much and don't want to get embarrassed by getting screenshots of them losing/saying dumb things posted on youtube/these forums (..wait, too late LOL). Which I actually don't do most of the time, only when the person im playing is being a retard @whiskgay, ive played you countless times on and off, most recently in a full 9 games series in like 2007/2008 (I was botting for rem1x, we beat you and kill on glacier flying lol you guys won the other 8 maps), I don't use this nick on cw.cc
You've offered me once to ever 1v1 you tr00p....and it was when i was just getting on Renegade, and in a snipe server...where you offered to 1v1 aow me. I didn't even decline, but instead made you look dumb instead....of which you're still failing to see. You still suck at Renegade, and still talk the most shit out of any Renegade player ever. That's pathetic.
Dodge more, you are possible the WORST renegade player here....even people you seem to think you are better than have played me (ex: Sadukar), ps: http://img168.imageshack.us/f/hatemvp.png/ ^LOL, even the one thing you claim you are good at, you aren't. I joined late, and stole your MVP, keep on talking tho, ill just keep on posting screenshots!
who cares about 1v1's... learn to play some real games
anyone else waiting for troop to come out and admit he's been an undercover comedian this whole time? god im seriously hoping we end up in a tosh.0 skit or something .. No one could possibly be that fucking retarded with their head so far up their ass that they've quite possibly been the worst renegade player the game has ever seen whilst playing 100x more than ANY 5 people in the community combined and despite getting bent over 95% of the games he played .. he just keeps going i mean he even has the fucking audacity to talk about himself as a clanwar player ... what was his record .. 1-97? jesus fucking christ .. it really is depressing .. stop pretending you represent any part of the cw.cc community troop ..
Yeah Troop, botting for Remix a few games in 2008 doesn't mean you get to be a representative of cw.cc. I'm not trying to be an ass here, but some of the things you say make us look bad.
you are not a true clanwar players if you havent been banned atleast once for doing something retarded back in the day
also whiskey spoony does a perfectly good job of discrediting his own league by shitting over 80% of the clanwar players in his essays, even if they are unrelated to the topic. i dont think anything troop says or does could make clanwars look any worse
Your double posting is certainly helping! Don't do it again.
Simpee does have a bit of a point... I've noticed at least a few times Spoony rippin' on the league as a whole, like calling the majority of us retards, etc. I don't remember it being as bad as Spoony seems to be making it out to be. Easy to do now that the league is dead and their is nobody around to defend it anymore (besides me ).I remember the league getting over 1000 games a month consistently, playing hundreds of games myself a month, and having a great time. It wasn't just the actual game. It was the whole experience of interacting on the smak forums and on teamspeak, meeting and playing with different people, competing in those final days for the cup, etc. I had a lot of fun for the 4-5 years that I actively competed on cw.cc. Do I think the majority of people I competed against are retards? Definitely not. Another thing, When Spoony banned Clear + Simpee, thats when Kill & I (and I think everyone else) realized there was no point competing again, so everyone re-quit. Spoony claims the league died because he quit playing.... lol Spoony hasn't seriously competed in years. The last time I remember playing against Spoony regularly, was when the manual league first started way back, It was me, Halo, and Kill, and we'd play the maximum of 5 games everyday against Spoony's clan. Sure, there was probably times when he played on and off, rarely, but there were times. But to say the league died because he quit playing? lol I didn't even know you were competing in the league when it restarted again. I mean, looking at the battle logs, it shows MaidenTy1 hasn't been active for 1435 days (about 4 years) and Spoony hasn't been active in 1551 days (4.25 years). So to say the league is dead because you aren't playing, is a little far fetched don't ya think?
Quote: also whiskey spoony does a perfectly good job of discrediting his own league by shitting over 80% of the clanwar players in his essays, even if they are unrelated to the topic. i dont think anything troop says or does could make clanwars look any worse i'm not sure pointing out how a lot of the people who played in my league are retards actually discredits the league. GoTWhisKéY wrote on Fri, 05 November 2010 11:00 Simpee does have a bit of a point... I've noticed at least a few times Spoony rippin' on the league as a whole, like calling the majority of us retards, etc. I don't remember it being as bad as Spoony seems to be making it out to be. Easy to do now that the league is dead and their is nobody around to defend it anymore (besides me ). everything i've said to liquid recently, i've said before... when the league was alive. funny how nobody was disproving me then either. Quote: I remember the league getting over 1000 games a month consistently, playing hundreds of games myself a month, and having a great time. It wasn't just the actual game. It was the whole experience of interacting on the smak forums and on teamspeak, meeting and playing with different people, competing in those final days for the cup, etc. I had a lot of fun for the 4-5 years that I actively competed on cw.cc. Do I think the majority of people I competed against are retards? Definitely not. complete change of subject there. e.g. when i said "the community is almost entirely comprised of retards", i was specifically talking about a specific point in history (the Soul episode, and let's not mince words about that, the almost entire community was completely retarded) Quote: When Spoony banned Clear + Simpee, thats when Kill & I (and I think everyone else) realized there was no point competing again, so everyone re-quit. Spoony claims the league died because he quit playing.... lol Spoony hasn't seriously competed in years. The last time I remember playing against Spoony regularly, was when the manual league first started way back, It was me, Halo, and Kill, and we'd play the maximum of 5 games everyday against Spoony's clan. Sure, there was probably times when he played on and off, rarely, but there were times. But to say the league died because he quit playing? lol I didn't even know you were competing in the league when it restarted again. I mean, looking at the battle logs, it shows MaidenTy1 hasn't been active for 1435 days (about 4 years) and Spoony hasn't been active in 1551 days (4.25 years). So to say the league is dead because you aren't playing, is a little far fetched don't ya think? you didn't notice TC playing actively at the time clear and simpee were banned? it's true that i was more of an admin than a player for several years before that, never said otherwise.
trooprm02 wrote on Thu, 04 November 2010 16:48 Dodge more, you are possible the WORST renegade player here....even people you seem to think you are better than have played me (ex: Sadukar), ps: http://img168.imageshack.us/f/hatemvp.png/ ^LOL, even the one thing you claim you are good at, you aren't. I joined late, and stole your MVP, keep on talking tho, ill just keep on posting screenshots! You've managed to fail miserably again. The ss you gave earlier in this topic shows me joining while you were in game, and shows all of the players in game that are in the game during that ss. It's the same game, and i joined part of the way through it, and still almost caught up to your kill amount. You're so incredibly stupid dude. http://img35.imageshack.us/f/hatedodge.png/ You CLEARLY joined after me, while i had been in game the whole time, didn't you!?! Idiot.
Quote: everything i've said to liquid recently, i've said before... when the league was alive. funny how nobody was disproving me then either. When the league was alive, we were busy playing clanwars. If you were posting around on different forums about how retarded we all were back then, I wouldn't of noticed since I only posted on Smak (the best forum in renehistory, r.i.p.). How do I go about 'disproving' someone who says my community is full or retards? I mean, we had 1000+ games a month, 36000 games in total on the latest incarnation of the manual league. Were we playing in the special olympics the whole time and I didn't notice? How can a league be as successful as clanwars.cc if we were a majority of numb-skulls? Ripping on the cw.cc league isn't anything new though. I guess we've always been thought of as a bunch of cheating assholes. I always hated that. The only thing I could about it then, was to welcome new-comers with open arms, and support the league as much as I could by providing active competition, following the rules, and reporting my loses, and most importantly, completing a series of games without flaming my opponent ingame, or on forums. Quote: complete change of subject there. e.g. when i said "the community is almost entirely comprised of retards", i was specifically talking about a specific point in history (the Soul episode, and let's not mince words about that, the almost entire community was completely retarded) It wasn't a COMPLETE change of subject... you said it was a league full of retards, then I gave an example of how the league was a success, with my point being 'a league of retards couldn't of possibly been as successful as this'. You got to remember that the actual cw.cc league and the smak forums were seperate entities. A lot players competed, but wouldn't post on smak. It was a harsh environment at times so I can't say I blame them. Was there a lot of retards on the forums back then? I'd say yes there was definitely some, but definitely the minority. There's always gonna be 12 years olds trolling on forums, no matter where you go. Quote: you didn't notice TC playing actively at the time clear and simpee were banned? Define actively. I remember vaguely you and Hitman getting together, but I don't remember actually playing against you at that time. I remember Mike,Wiggles,Clear,Simpee,Me+Kill(to an extent) were the ones trying to compete and get the league active again. Quote: it's true that i was more of a player than an admin for several years before that, never said otherwise. Do you mean that Vice-Versa? You were an admin more than a player I think you mean.
GoTWhisKéY wrote on Fri, 05 November 2010 14:05 When the league was alive, we were busy playing clanwars. If you were posting around on different forums about how retarded we all were back then, I wouldn't of noticed since I only posted on Smak (the best forum in renehistory, r.i.p.). How do I go about 'disproving' someone who says my community is full or retards? you could try disproving the specific incidents i refer to rather than the shorthand i use to answer liquid's "but why was everyone acting so retarded?" question. again, i was talking about stuff like the soul episode... everything i said about it was true and i've said it all many times before. liquid had trouble believing that a community could act so bollock-brainedly stupid, but there you go. Quote: I mean, we had 1000+ games a month, 36000 games in total on the latest incarnation of the manual league. Were we playing in the special olympics the whole time and I didn't notice? How can a league be as successful as clanwars.cc if we were a majority of numb-skulls? or if we had the worst admin ever? Quote: Ripping on the cw.cc league isn't anything new though. I guess we've always been thought of as a bunch of cheating assholes. I always hated that. easy tiger, let's keep in mind that everything i've said has been true, and if anyone's earned the right to criticise the frequent stupidity, dishonesty etc that does inhabit the clanwars community, i'd like to think it's me Quote: The only thing I could about it then, was to welcome new-comers with open arms, and support the league as much as I could by providing active competition, following the rules, and reporting my loses, and most importantly, completing a series of games without flaming my opponent ingame, or on forums. hmm, and most can't tick all the above boxes, can they? some of them some of the time, sure... Quote: Quote: you didn't notice TC playing actively at the time clear and simpee were banned? Define actively. I remember vaguely you and Hitman getting together, but I don't remember actually playing against you at that time. I remember Mike,Wiggles,Clear,Simpee,Me+Kill(to an extent) were the ones trying to compete and get the league active again. sorry to hear your memory's failing you Quote: Quote: it's true that i was more of a player than an admin for several years before that, never said otherwise. Do you mean that Vice-Versa? You were an admin more than a player I think you mean. yes, silly me.
some of the renegade people from clanwars.cc may not have been the best people, but overall it was successful and a lot of people really enjoyed it even now as you blast it whiskey has no problem standing up for it; you don't give it enough credit you two did a good job, and should focus less on the people like bosnianm02 and more on the people that give it a good name
M0FiR3 wrote on Fri, 05 November 2010 00:10 anyone else waiting for troop to come out and admit he's been an undercover comedian this whole time? god im seriously hoping we end up in a tosh.0 skit or something .. No one could possibly be that fucking retarded with their head so far up their ass that they've quite possibly been the worst renegade player the game has ever seen whilst playing 100x more than ANY 5 people in the community combined and despite getting bent over 95% of the games he played .. he just keeps going i mean he even has the fucking audacity to talk about himself as a clanwar player ... what was his record .. 1-97? jesus fucking christ .. it really is depressing .. stop pretending you represent any part of the cw.cc community troop .. lol @ anthrax, you've played 2 cw's in your whole life, and lost them both. Still agree about me getting into ILL while you didn't make the cut? Anyway...who gives a fuck what people think about it? If they care so much, we don't want them there anyway....I atleast don't play for rep, if they are decent ill play them regardless of how their "image on the internet" is because that makes no difference... @whisk, I also played you countless times when I was in -OS- (not {OS}) and XSV, frozens clan and have played many more clanwars than even you (post 2007/8) I'd say, but yes I was never in a perminent clan before then, but cw.cc did not die then, nor was it "better" then, though it did have more players.
i've probably won 75% of my 120ish clanwars and they're always against people "better" than me. i remember one time winning against muffin wiggles and henry with bigd442 and dax109 on canyon ... muffin got 400 off and i pistoled him on the airstrip n stole his flame tank lol fun times! but anyways troop if you ever want to 2v2 (1v1 proves nothing and i know you'll just get 2 shots on my WF and disconnect and say you won) lets do it bud .. ill just slap you 4 more times in a row and you can deny it wasnt you cause you were on a bot name
Did troop just say he's played more clanwars than me? snap. I have screenshots showing 1100+ games in auto league from 2004-2005, 1500+ games from 2005-2006 in first manual league, and 2500+ games from 2006 til now in the 2nd manual league. I've played roughly 5000 clanwars bud, starting in early 2004, playing steady until 4th quarter 2008 when the league died. Thats 5 years of hardcore ReneNerding. In that time, I've come to know every individual who mattered in that league. When you get to that level of play, you have to start learning each player's individual style and strategy. I knew Simpee was an amazing Sniper, that Clear was sneaky, that Karmai had an amazing chem warrior, that SoQAshy was the best Nod Soldier in town, etc. You? Never heard of ya.
as an outsider i can say that the entire clanwars community has always looked like a bunch of stuck-up retards foolishly obsessed with a game that no one in the real world cares about. no one normal likes anybody from cw.cc also hate is a noob for dodging troop
funny, a black guy being prejudice against an entire group of people
i think we should set up a renegame to solve this conflict
i concur everyone download the map carnage club and we'll settle this http://ren.game-maps.net/index.php?act=download&id=260
GoTWhisKéY wrote on Sat, 06 November 2010 00:49 playing steady until 4th quarter 2008 when the league died Not that I care, but why did you bother posting a 2 paragraph response without even reading what I said? I said POST 2007/2008, I know I have and the league was not dead, just because you say it was. Im sure there was less players than previous years, but welcome to a 8 year old game? @anthrax, you still don't play clanwars.
I did misread that, my bad. But there has only been 2 active months since 2008, Nov & Dec of 2009. I competed in November heavily (finished 2nd to CAG after the F2F), and December was when Simpee + Clear (the defending champions) got banned leading to the death of the league. Its probably just your lack of identity that I don't recognize you as a clanwars player. I can believe that you botted a lot for people post-2008.
GoTWhisKéY wrote on Sat, 06 November 2010 23:00 I did misread that, my bad. But there has only been 2 active months since 2008, Nov & Dec of 2009. I competed in November heavily (finished 2nd to CAG after the F2F), and December was when Simpee + Clear (the defending champions) got banned leading to the death of the league. Its probably just your lack of identity that I don't recognize you as a clanwars player. I can believe that you botted a lot for people post-2008. hahaha too bad no1 cares about this
any1 wanna 1v1? 1v1s up in dis bitch?
GoTWhisKéY wrote on Sun, 07 November 2010 01:00 I can believe that you botted a lot for people post-2008. No, I botted for alot of people pre-2008, it was in @ 2007/2008 that I started playing for better known clans. But im glad you agree the league died in 2009 (except for a short run in 2010) and not in 2007 which is when you first said it did.
I've never said the league died in 2007. I said it died 4th quarter 2008. A quick check of the HOC shows the decline.
This is one hell of a topic. When it comes to Clanwars.cc, I love the community. Sure, from an outsider looking in - it looks pretty bad, but I know for a fact that I get on well with almost every single person there, 99% of the time... Whiskey, PM me and we can get another lobby war going.
Hypnos wrote on Mon, 08 November 2010 11:53 This is one hell of a topic. When it comes to Clanwars.cc, I love the community. Sure, from an outsider looking in - it looks pretty bad, but I know for a fact that I get on well with almost every single person there, 99% of the time... Whiskey, PM me and we can get another lobby war going. It could look bad if you stumble over to cw.cc and start reading a flamewar post, then assume that is what our league is... That is not the case though. If you focused on the actual LEAGUE, you would see that we had* an active, competive league that successfully ran a big tournament monthly. You didn't have to be part of the smak forums to be a part of cw.cc community, and thats what a lot of people didn't realize. And really, the Smak forum wasn't even as bad as some make it out to be... I had over 9000's posts on the original smak. Had a lot of fun over the years there. Anyway, yeah Hypno's I'm getting on that shortly. In fact, I may do one this Saturday. I'll figure it out and make a post tonite if that is the case.
i heard clanwars forums died i checked it did
ELiT3FLyR wrote on Fri, 05 November 2010 10:02 you are not a true clanwar players if you havent been banned atleast once for doing something retarded back in the day this is a good post
JohnDoe wrote on Mon, 08 November 2010 13:22 i heard clanwars forums died i checked it did this is a bad post
Aw I just noticed in the liquid/troop thread, Troop saying something along the lines of "I'm not gonna pull an H2O and dodge" wow lol... That was one of the main hallmarks of H2O was that we NEVER dodged. Actually, our last year active, it was very hard for us to get games at all because WE were the ones being dodged non-stop. Kill couldn't get on MSN near the end or it guaranteed us no games. There was a time in the auto-league, April 2004 when we won our first cup, that we were accused of 'dodging to win the cup'. Since we didn't play +FE+ (Who were total douches to us at the time, flaming us non-stop ingame and on the forums), we chose a friendly clan, VERB, and played them instead. At the time I was relatively new to the spirit of clanwars, and I do see how, to be fair, we should of played FE so that skill decides who gets the cup, not sheer points or amount of games. Once the Manual League was set up, I invented the First 2 Five tournament so that dodging couldn't decide a cup, like it had in the past. So to say that H2O 'dodges' is just ridiculous. If you actually ever competed at clanwars regularly, you'd know H2O was constantly LOOKING for games, not dodging them lol. So sure, April 2004, My clan chose to play friends instead of assholes on the final day of the tournament, which inevitably led to us winning our first cup, and setting off an explosion @ the smak forums. If I had to do it all over again, would I? Damn right, because it was fucking awesome.