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Anyone ever notice the similarity between what is happening now in the Mid-East and the origins of the C&C TS universe? Nod is supposed to be a global organization of terrorists trying to take over and control 3rd world countries for their own means. Al-Quaida (sp?) is a global organization of terrorists causing trouble in the 3rd world. They took over Afghanistan thru the Taliban. Now it is said they are causing the conflict between India and Pakistan, manipulating both toward war. GDI was an international group of elite soldiers intent on seeking out Nod, stopping and destroying them whenever possible. Dubya has formed an international coalition of forces, usually special forces, to liberate Afghanistan and now to hunt down Al-Quaida terrorists wherever they may hide. Can't wait till the USA develops the Ion Cannon Beacon....
I heard that they are making a real Rainbow Six now. The kind from the book and the game.
Ya'll read far too much into this. Terrorism and it's state(I mean 'states' as in country, not US) ties are nothing new. Nor are troubles in the Middle East. India and Pakistan goin' to war with each other, again nothing new. So you got zilch pal [ June 08, 2002, 01:09: Message edited by: ZTankMuncha ]
yeah so many people think that september 11th was the start of terrorism. No, it was the start of terrorism for precious America. I bet no one realises that the US supply the IRA (irish republican army)a terrorist organization with weapons? they have blown up about 4 shopping centers in the UK on saturday afternoons. [ June 08, 2002, 01:33: Message edited by: CNC Master ]
quote: Originally posted by I hate the French: Can't wait till the USA develops the Ion Cannon Beacon.... NOW THAT WOULD BE THE MOST COOL THING!!!lol, emagine a big ion connon ontop of osama - bin - layed off!!! that would look the best!lol
I thought that when playing the single player game. The NoD troops would yell "infadels!" or something like that.
Whooo! Change all of Nod's audio commands to things like "You GDI infadels!" "Praise Allah!" "I shall do my victory chant of Ammashekyar-zooba!"
9/11 wasn't even the start of terrorism for America, however it was the equivilent of a *****slap to the nation, and it got thier attention. You think 9/11 was bad? Try living in Isreal or Ireland dodging bullets and car bombs and riots. Who supplies these weapons? You do. Ever wonder why a roll of TP cost's $50 in the pentagon? Most Americans know zilch about current world affairs, yet still vote, and those votes are still made into policy, wrongs it may be, and those policies hurt others all over the world directly and indirectly. I've found that Americans get more poorly recieved than Canadians(I have dual citizenship and travel as both), simply because they know less about what they, and through them thier nation, is doing to others, and it rightly ****es the others off. This is the problem with democracy, and this is the problem with America. Now you know why terrorists came after you in such a way. It was the only way to get your attention, and in doing so, validating them and drawing attention and recruits to them. Now the terrorists have gone underground to train the next generation, who will do even more harm, and the next, and the next. America cannot stop it. I felt like ranting, so sue me.
did u see my post??? thats exactly wot i said. never mind we r both right
quote: Originally posted by BadBender: I thought that when playing the single player game. The NoD troops would yell "infadels!" or something like that. Erm, they do. Goto Multiplayer practice, and they do indeed shout things like "GDI S***", "Kill the Infidels" e.t.c. Plus, if you host a game you get lots of other nice little features, like blood, and the guy in the C1-30 Transport asking for permission to land and stuff. But the others are right. Terrorism has been going on in other places for decades. It's affected us countless times. Ever heard of the IRA...guess who funded them? Stupid pieces of wank in the USA who had a little bit of Irish blood. Where's this coalition to bomb the hell out of the IRA at? Oh wait, if Americans aren't being killed nobody gives a toss, my mistake.
You ignorant canadiens better wake the @\%$# up! If it wasn't for the USA, you would be saluting Hitler, Stalin, or some Jap emperor!!! Stick to what you know....hockey....oh wait, no canadian teams are in the finals. Canada SUCKS!
I just have to open my mouth. Yes there are people in America who helped fund the ira and yes a lot of Americans do not know the problems of the rest of the world. The diffrence between a terrorists and a general is which side you are on. The british considered washington a terrorist and the americans considered him a a great general and elected him president. As for america not caring, That is not so if you tell any american about any of the problems in this world every single one of them will care. What are we supposed to do? For instance we could easily take over india and pakistan occupy them and destroy any and all weapons. Some in the world would think that is good, we helped stop a possiable nuclear war. But to india and pakistan we would be tranyical bullies. To qoute spiderman "With great power comes great responsablity", just because we could eradicate all life on the planet does not mean we should. So what would be a fair and equatable solution to solve all the worlds problems? Tell me and I will vote for it. Until then the united states will have to sit on the sidelines frevrentally hoping people will be able to put aside their diffrences, open their minds, forget old wounds and comprimise. Then, hopefully everybody will be able to enjoy the freedom that americans cherish so much. P.S. I know there are spelling errors.
quote: Originally posted by ZTankMuncha: 9/11 wasn't even the start of terrorism for America, however it was the equivilent of a *****slap to the nation, and it got thier attention. You think 9/11 was bad? Try living in Isreal or Ireland dodging bullets and car bombs and riots. Who supplies these weapons? You do. Ever wonder why a roll of TP cost's $50 in the pentagon? Most Americans know zilch about current world affairs, yet still vote, and those votes are still made into policy, wrongs it may be, and those policies hurt others all over the world directly and indirectly. I've found that Americans get more poorly recieved than Canadians(I have dual citizenship and travel as both), simply because they know less about what they, and through them thier nation, is doing to others, and it rightly ****es the others off. This is the problem with democracy, and this is the problem with America. Now you know why terrorists came after you in such a way. It was the only way to get your attention, and in doing so, validating them and drawing attention and recruits to them. Now the terrorists have gone underground to train the next generation, who will do even more harm, and the next, and the next. America cannot stop it. I felt like ranting, so sue me.
quote: Originally posted by ZTankMuncha: 9/11 wasn't even the start of terrorism for America, however it was the equivilent of a *****slap to the nation, and it got thier attention. You think 9/11 was bad? Try living in Isreal or Ireland dodging bullets and car bombs and riots. Who supplies these weapons? You do. Ever wonder why a roll of TP cost's $50 in the pentagon? Most Americans know zilch about current world affairs, yet still vote, and those votes are still made into policy, wrongs it may be, and those policies hurt others all over the world directly and indirectly. I've found that Americans get more poorly recieved than Canadians(I have dual citizenship and travel as both), simply because they know less about what they, and through them thier nation, is doing to others, and it rightly ****es the others off. This is the problem with democracy, and this is the problem with America. Now you know why terrorists came after you in such a way. It was the only way to get your attention, and in doing so, validating them and drawing attention and recruits to them. Now the terrorists have gone underground to train the next generation, who will do even more harm, and the next, and the next. America cannot stop it. I felt like ranting, so sue me. You dont know ****. The terrorists attack us because of their religion. I dont care what some muslim ass holes said on tv, ive read the koran and it commands muslims to kill all who are not muslims. It even rewards them for it they get to go to a "heaven" with beautiful gardens and virgins. And there is no problem with democracy if the learders do their job. If there was a problem with democracy then we wouldnt be the most powerful nation on earth now would we?
sorry about my first post my browser screwed up.
quote: Originally posted by Chronigan: I just have to open my mouth. Yes there are people in America who helped fund the ira and yes a lot of Americans do not know the problems of the rest of the world. The diffrence between a terrorists and a general is which side you are on. The british considered washington a terrorist and the americans considered him a a great general and elected him president. As for america not caring, That is not so if you tell any american about any of the problems in this world every single one of them will care. What are we supposed to do? For instance we could easily take over india and pakistan occupy them and destroy any and all weapons. Some in the world would think that is good, we helped stop a possiable nuclear war. But to india and pakistan we would be tranyical bullies. To qoute spiderman "With great power comes great responsablity", just because we could eradicate all life on the planet does not mean we should. So what would be a fair and equatable solution to solve all the worlds problems? Tell me and I will vote for it. Until then the united states will have to sit on the sidelines frevrentally hoping people will be able to put aside their diffrences, open their minds, forget old wounds and comprimise. Then, hopefully everybody will be able to enjoy the freedom that americans cherish so much. P.S. I know there are spelling errors.
quote: Originally posted by Chronigan: I just have to open my mouth. Yes there are people in America who helped fund the ira and yes a lot of Americans do not know the problems of the rest of the world. The diffrence between a terrorists and a general is which side you are on. The british considered washington a terrorist and the americans considered him a a great general and elected him president. As for america not caring, That is not so if you tell any american about any of the problems in this world every single one of them will care. What are we supposed to do? For instance we could easily take over india and pakistan occupy them and destroy any and all weapons. Some in the world would think that is good, we helped stop a possiable nuclear war. But to india and pakistan we would be tranyical bullies. To qoute spiderman "With great power comes great responsablity", just because we could eradicate all life on the planet does not mean we should. So what would be a fair and equatable solution to solve all the worlds problems? Tell me and I will vote for it. Until then the united states will have to sit on the sidelines frevrentally hoping people will be able to put aside their diffrences, open their minds, forget old wounds and comprimise. Then, hopefully everybody will be able to enjoy the freedom that americans cherish so much. P.S. I know there are spelling errors. This guy is right its not americas job to police the world. Its not our duty to stop the fighting ever time some hot headed ass holes decide to start something.
quote: Originally posted by silentson: You dont know ****. The terrorists attack us because of their religion. I dont care what some muslim ass holes said on tv, ive read the koran and it commands muslims to kill all who are not muslims. It even rewards them for it they get to go to a "heaven" with beautiful gardens and virgins. And there is no problem with democracy if the learders do their job. If there was a problem with democracy then we wouldnt be the most powerful nation on earth now would we?[/QB] Its not their religion. Look at isreal, do you know why thats goin on???? after the second world war america and england decided that some of palestine would become isreal. eversince then the palestinians have been bombing the isrealites and everyone thinks this is so bad. it is bad, im not saying that but then what do isreal go and do, they use the tanks and weapons, bought by the americans, to destroy a couple of palestinian settlements. And in afghanistan, its not the religion, its the taliban. they are not only against america, its their own people aswell that they kill, and on a lot bigger scale. And now everyone is discriminating against the muslims cos a couple of trigger happy di*kheads fomr that country went and blew somthing up killing alot of innocent people which is bad but america going and bombing all the "terrorists" headquarters which are normally based in the middle of a city isnt going to solve anything. If they had given afghanistan say 2 billion dollars in aid instead of buyinng 2 stealth bombers then this would all have been over. the taliban only existed cos all the afhans were to poor to do anything about it. [ June 10, 2002, 23:09: Message edited by: CNC Master ]
Good Lord! Didn't meant to start a political debate. But...since ya did, the gloves come off... 1. It is not America's job to be the police dept of the world. We should only get involved if our interests are involved and if we are asked for help. 2. We became the greatest nation on the planet because of our democracy. Is it perfect? no. But it is far better than anything out there. 3. America is not perfect. Too many da**ed liberals screwing things up, but we are still the most free, the most prosperous, the most advanced country in the world. Freedom = prosperity 4. The countries that hate us, hate us for our freedom, our prosperity, and our capitalism. They feel they are entitled to what we have simply for existing. Wrongo! Our forefathers worked hard and long to get us where we are. Millions dies to keep us free. Instead of clamoring for handouts, these countries should try democracy instrad of socialism, communism, or an oligarchy. Worked for us, it would work for them if they had the ba11s to let go of thier personal power. 5. As for the 'blame America first' crowd: to he11 with you all. We shell out billions in foreign aid, we send our tropps everywhere in the world to die for your local issues, we try our best to export our technology and medicine to the rest of the world to raise the standard of living. What do we get in return? Terrorist bombings and finger pointing by socialist-leaning 'allies' saying we brought it on ourselves. bah! 6. Israel is hated because of the same things we are hated for: democracy, power, prosperity. As for the Palestine issue: check your history books. Palistine was not a country during or after WWII, so it was not taken away by the West and made into Israel. Also, at the time Israel was recreated, land was set aside for the creation of Palestine. The Palestinians rejected it. That's why there is no Palestine today. If they want a homeland - reject terrorism. Period. 7. As for America finally doing something about Al Quaida - it took this long to get a President with enough guts to do it. Clinton was offered Bin Laden in chains by Sudan twice - he declined the offer. Now that we are doing something about it, all of you can either get behind us and support us, or get in front of us and ally yourselves with the terrorists - there is no neutrality this time (even Switzerland finally figured that out). We were attacked first because we are the biggest and strongest. Be assured, if America were to fall or bow out of the war, Europe, Japan, Australia, and Israel will follow as targets...
quote: Originally posted by CNC Master: quote: Originally posted by silentson: You dont know ****. The terrorists attack us because of their religion. I dont care what some muslim ass holes said on tv, ive read the koran and it commands muslims to kill all who are not muslims. It even rewards them for it they get to go to a "heaven" with beautiful gardens and virgins. And there is no problem with democracy if the learders do their job. If there was a problem with democracy then we wouldnt be the most powerful nation on earth now would we? Its not their religion. Look at isreal, do you know why thats goin on???? after the second world war america and england decided that some of palestine would become isreal. eversince then the palestinians have been bombing the isrealites and everyone thinks this is so bad. it is bad, im not saying that but then what do isreal go and do, they use the tanks and weapons, bought by the americans, to destroy a couple of palestinian settlements. And in afghanistan, its not the religion, its the taliban. they are not only against america, its their own people aswell that they kill, and on a lot bigger scale. And now everyone is discriminating against the muslims cos a couple of trigger happy di*kheads fomr that country went and blew somthing up killing alot of innocent people which is bad but america going and bombing all the "terrorists" headquarters which are normally based in the middle of a city isnt going to solve anything. If they had given afghanistan say 2 billion dollars in aid instead of buyinng 2 stealth bombers then this would all have been over. the taliban only existed cos all the afhans were to poor to do anything about it.[/QB] WHAT WOULD 2 BILLION IN AID DO? the us has given aid throughout the world. you know what happens? the tyrants in charge take that aid and buy guns and food for their soldiers while the people of the country starve!! the terrorist headquarters that we bombed in afghanistan were in mountain sides and terrorist camps mostly. there were a few terrorist headquarters in cities, it was called the capitol and the terrorists bombed were called the government of afghanistan. i'm so tired of people starting wars over religion. as far as i'm concerned let them fight their wars and kill eachother. the us should stay out of it until they hurt the us or our interests. once that happens, bomb them all into the 21st century.
Hmmm...no replies for a week. I win!!
Good for you, now go and kill some Frenchmen but leave us adults alone.
*starts the thread deletion clock* 10...9...8...7...6....
Come on now........ Britain is a powerful ally. We do not knowingly supply arms to terrorists in allied countries. Especially Britain. Think before you speak.
Uh the US sure does supply the IRA and PIRA with guns, and money, and support. The representitives of the IRA travel every year to America to raise funds and recieve arms which they bring back to Ireland to use against the British. However thats not why I'm responding. It's that dumbass anti-Canada remark. Who got the gold *****? Who got the gold?
In reply to I hate the French: 1. You're right, it's not America's job to be police of the world, which is why countries take offense and hate America for meddling in things that shouldn't concern them. And as for when interests are involved, America's foreign policy means that they have an interest in almost anything that's happening. 2. America is not the greatest nation, only the most powerful. And it's not just due to democracy, otherwise other democracies in the world would also be as powerful. It's also due to the number of people and the strict adherance to the principles of capitalism, or the so called "Greater Good". 3. Freedom can also mean "A right or the power to engage in certain actions without control or interference", which America has shown. So yes, doing whatever you want to get ahead would = Prosperity. 4. The countries that hate America hate it because decisions to protect it's own interests negatively affect their own. When's the last time you saw a trade embargo put on America because of an economic decision? American Farmers are now heavily subsidised by the government, allowing them to provide their goods at discounted prices, causing an unfair advantage over farmers from every other country. If this was done by another country, you can bet that America would be at the WTO before you could think and sanctions would come into effect. 5. Countries don't want americans to die for them, Vietnam anyone? As for terrorist bombings, here's a question for you: Who is the only country to have used not 1 but 2 weapons of mass destruction against civilians? (hint: Hiroshima, Nagasaki) 6. Israel is hated because of the displacement of communities and the lack of religious tolerance. You're right, palestine wasn't a country, Israel was taken from all surrounding countries, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, and Egypt, the Palestinians became those people dispossessed of their land, which continues every time a new "Settlement" is created. As for terrorism, I don't agree with it at all, but violence begets violence. If people throw stones at you, you don't respond by using a helicopter gunship to blow up a building. 7. Yes it's about time something was done, but again it shows up the hipocrisy of Americans. America has been arressting and detaining suspected terrorists without trial, including those of nationalities other than Afghanistan or Middle-East, but it's only when an American citizen is detained that there's an outcry about this. On a final note, I'm not saying America is evil or that terrorism is a legitimate tactic, just that no regime is innocent in what has happened.
QUOTE---------- You ignorant canadiens better wake the @\%$# up! If it wasn't for the USA, you would be saluting Hitler, Stalin, or some Jap emperor!!! Stick to what you know....hockey....oh wait, no canadian teams are in the finals. Canada SUCKS! QUOTE---------- Oh....thanks for Glancing over Britain there.... What did you do for us? ZILCH? Where were you when we were getting blitzed? NOWHERE! Oh - A passanger liner has been sunk....CALL TO ARMS! Sheesh, I mean come on! It means JACK all to you that all of Europe was getting massacred, when ONLY 20 people die on a Liner then its " NOW ITS PERSONAL " And, you B****ds are suppiying the IRA with weapons. I had a reletive who DIED in a car bomb, and your saying things are wrong....IT TAKES 11/9 TO OPEN YOUR FREAKING EYES TO TERRORISM!!! THEN, YOU LAUNCH A BIG ATTACK WITH NO IDEA OF THE REPROCUSSIONS. OSAMA HAS NOT BEEN FOUN - YOU DO NOT KNOW WHEN HE WILL DO NEXT
I unfortunately have to concede your points as being valid. We do have our fingers in everything, but then again, just about every nation quakes when our stock market crashes. Thiers follows accordingly. Economics is the evil here. It is what has changed America from the land of opportunity to the land of exploiters. I do not beleive that the US gov't supports the IRA though. There are groups here who do, but our gov't does not.
No your government does not support the IRA. They just let 'em waltz into America, do thier song and dance, take thier money, and leave. I dare say the problem with America is not with the government, but with the average Joe who doesn't know, nor care about anything beyond his limited perspective. ****able liberal Americans.
I just wanted to say something to our bretheren outside the US. Please do not read into this discussion that Americans think they are superior to other people in the world. We are not. We just happened to be born here by the grace of God. We could have been born in another country and still be the same people. All people are born equal. All live under different cir***stances and opportunities. We do believe that our country is the greatest because of the freedoms we have. Democracy, capitalism, religious freedom, a free press, and the freedom to dissent...Some countries have many of these. No other has all of them. That's why we believe our country is the greatest and we are entitled to that belief. I assume most of you believe your country is the greatest for various reasons and you are also entitled to that belief. We are all in this together, either as proponents of freedom and liberty, or as proponents of socialism, totalitarianism, terrorism, or oppression. We believe that "Might serves Right". Some believe that "Might makes Right". You decide...
Quote We do believe that our country is the greatest because of the freedoms we have. Democracy, capitalism, religious freedom, a free press, and the freedom to dissent...Some countries have many of these. No other has all of them. That's why we believe our country is the greatest and we are entitled to that belief. End quote Speficically responding to "some countries have many of these. No other has all of them." Open your eyes please. Many countries have all of these freedoms (namly 1st world countries). Many other countries may not have them all but to say that only America has them all is blatent ignorance. Lets do a check list shall we. I live in Ireland (Rep. of not the north) Democracy we have, Capitalism we have, Religious freedom we have, A free press we have, Freedom to dissent we have. So remember while America has this reason to believe its the greatest many other countries have it too. Also im glad ill be able to debate here with being flamed by the ignorant. Its nice to have a civilized debate as opposed to the typical "OH NO WERE THE BEST WAHAHAHAHAH". Sickening.
In counter -response (BTW - it's nice to have an intelligent civilized debate. Thank you! 1. You're right, it's not America's job to be police of the world, which is why countries take offense and hate America for meddling in things that shouldn't concern them. And as for when interests are involved, America's foreign policy means that they have an interest in almost anything that's happening. *** Response - You are correct here. Unfortunately when liberal administrations are in power, we do meddle too much. Clinton stuck his...nose in where it didn't belong far too often. Conservatives however believe in very limited intervention in other nation's affairs. hopefully, Dubya will stay true to conservatism and not meddle. Of course, hunting down terrorists and those who sponser/protect/support them does not count as meddling *** 2. America is not the greatest nation, only the most powerful. And it's not just due to democracy, otherwise other democracies in the world would also be as powerful. It's also due to the number of people and the strict adherance to the principles of capitalism, or the so called "Greater Good". *** RESPONSE - I disagree. It is also the most free, the most prosperous, the most stable, the most technologgically and medically advanced, the most tolerant of differing ideas. No other nation has everything we have. Now I am not saying we are perfect - far from it! But we have done in a little over 200 years what some nations have not accomplished in many more centuries. *** 3. Freedom can also mean "A right or the power to engage in certain actions without control or interference", which America has shown. So yes, doing whatever you want to get ahead would = Prosperity. *** RESPONSE - be careful. Doing what you want does not = doing what you have the power to do. Could we conquer any country through military might? Yes, but we don't. Could we dominate any country through economic might? Yes, but we don't. We recognize that other nations are soverign too. We can use our power to persuade and even coerce. The end game is the spread of democracy, freedom, and knowledge. *** 4. The countries that hate America hate it because decisions to protect it's own interests negatively affect their own. When's the last time you saw a trade embargo put on America because of an economic decision? American Farmers are now heavily subsidised by the government, allowing them to provide their goods at discounted prices, causing an unfair advantage over farmers from every other country. If this was done by another country, you can bet that America would be at the WTO before you could think and sanctions would come into effect. *** RESPONSE - Arab countries are not negatively affected by our policies. When was the last time we put an oil embargo on them? Our embargo against Cuba is really against Castro, not the Cuban people. Once he steps down/dies and the Communists are out of power, the embargo ends. I agree with you about the farm subsidies, though. No business should be subsidized at all. If they cannot compete in the marketplace, they should not be in it. *** 5. Countries don't want americans to die for them, Vietnam anyone? As for terrorist bombings, here's a question for you: Who is the only country to have used not 1 but 2 weapons of mass destruction against civilians? (hint: Hiroshima, Nagasaki) *** RESPONSE - Viet Nam was a mistake. In fact, we were trying to clean up the mess caused by the French (another reason to hate them). We won every single engagement in the war, but lost because the liberal bureaucrats tried to run the war from DC instead of letting the generals win the war the right way. Could have been over in 3 years... The A bombs were a horrible necessity. Japan had made it very clear that they would not surrender at any cost. All Japanese were of a mindset that to surrender is the ultimate disgrace. The loss of lives it would have taken to conquer each Pacific island and finally take Japan conventionally would have far, far outstripped the casualties suffered by the bombs. Dropping those bombs and forcing an unconditional surrender actually saved many millions of lives, both American and Japanese. BTW both cities were also legitimate military targets. Unfortunately, as in every war in history, civilians get killed. The difference is that civilians were not the target in these cases. 6. Israel is hated because of the displacement of communities and the lack of religious tolerance. You're right, palestine wasn't a country, Israel was taken from all surrounding countries, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, and Egypt, the Palestinians became those people dispossessed of their land, which continues every time a new "Settlement" is created. As for terrorism, I don't agree with it at all, but violence begets violence. If people throw stones at you, you don't respond by using a helicopter gunship to blow up a building. *** RESPONSE - Israel was not formed from those countries. It was formed from Trans-Jordan, which was part of the British Commonwealth. Britain GAVE the land to Israel and also tried to give some of it to Palestine. The Palestinians refused. BTW, why not ask Jordan why they kicked out 300,000 Palestinians and Syria why they kicked out 100,0000? Guess they couldn't behave there either....*** 7. Yes it's about time something was done, but again it shows up the hipocrisy of Americans. America has been arressting and detaining suspected terrorists without trial, including those of nationalities other than Afghanistan or Middle-East, but it's only when an American citizen is detained that there's an outcry about this. *** RESPONSE - suspected terrorists are not American citizens, so they do not have contitutional rights, including a 'speedy trial'. Since they do not belong to a country that has declared war, they are also not covered under the Geneva Convention as POWs. We COULD just execute them and be done with it, but we don't. We feed them, clothe them, and go out of our way to respect their religious beliefs at the taxpayer's expense. As for their native countries, only Britain asked for their nationals back. Nobody else wants the rest... *** On a final note, I'm not saying America is evil or that terrorism is a legitimate tactic, just that no regime is innocent in what has happened. *** RESPONSE - no one is completely innocent in the history of every nation. Our own nation had slavery and the displacement of the Indians. BUT...as nearly all nations have, we have grown and changed and progressed. No matter the sins of the government, you cannot justify the deliberate targeting of civilians that occurred on 9/11/2002 ***
Just a couple of points: 2. America is not the greatest nation, only the most powerful. And it's not just due to democracy, otherwise other democracies in the world would also be as powerful. It's also due to the number of people and the strict adherance to the principles of capitalism, or the so called "Greater Good". *** RESPONSE - I disagree. It is also the most free, the most prosperous, the most stable, the most technologgically and medically advanced, the most tolerant of differing ideas. No other nation has everything we have. Now I am not saying we are perfect - far from it! But we have done in a little over 200 years what some nations have not accomplished in many more centuries. *** +++ I don't think there's much point arguing about the greatest country, as you said later almost everyone probably thinks theirs is the greatest. Although, technological and medical advancements could be debated, because as soon as one becomes available, it's pretty much available to everyone, and they come from all nations. And I would definately not agree with tolerance, the KKK is a prime example.+++ 3. Freedom can also mean "A right or the power to engage in certain actions without control or interference", which America has shown. So yes, doing whatever you want to get ahead would = Prosperity. *** RESPONSE - be careful. Doing what you want does not = doing what you have the power to do. Could we conquer any country through military might? Yes, but we don't. Could we dominate any country through economic might? Yes, but we don't. We recognize that other nations are soverign too. We can use our power to persuade and even coerce. The end game is the spread of democracy, freedom, and knowledge. *** +++Doesn't using power for persuasion or coercion contradict the basic tenets of democracy and freedom? And the spread of democracy is a noble goal, but what happens if it stifles an even better form of government? The spread of Monarchies and despotism would have attempted to eradicate democracy in its infant stages as well, although I agree with replacing forms of government that are widely recognised as flawed from past experience with Democracy.+++ 4. The countries that hate America hate it because decisions to protect it's own interests negatively affect their own. When's the last time you saw a trade embargo put on America because of an economic decision? American Farmers are now heavily subsidised by the government, allowing them to provide their goods at discounted prices, causing an unfair advantage over farmers from every other country. If this was done by another country, you can bet that America would be at the WTO before you could think and sanctions would come into effect. *** RESPONSE - Arab countries are not negatively affected by our policies. When was the last time we put an oil embargo on them? Our embargo against Cuba is really against Castro, not the Cuban people. Once he steps down/dies and the Communists are out of power, the embargo ends. I agree with you about the farm subsidies, though. No business should be subsidized at all. If they cannot compete in the marketplace, they should not be in it. *** +++ True, Arab countries are not any more negatively impacted than other countries, but they are impacted by many small economic decisions made like higher import duties. And that's not to say that other countries (including arab countries) do not do the same thing, they just don't have the economic muscle to push as far as the USA.+++ 5. Countries don't want americans to die for them, Vietnam anyone? As for terrorist bombings, here's a question for you: Who is the only country to have used not 1 but 2 weapons of mass destruction against civilians? (hint: Hiroshima, Nagasaki) *** RESPONSE - Viet Nam was a mistake. In fact, we were trying to clean up the mess caused by the French (another reason to hate them). We won every single engagement in the war, but lost because the liberal bureaucrats tried to run the war from DC instead of letting the generals win the war the right way. Could have been over in 3 years... The A bombs were a horrible necessity. Japan had made it very clear that they would not surrender at any cost. All Japanese were of a mindset that to surrender is the ultimate disgrace. The loss of lives it would have taken to conquer each Pacific island and finally take Japan conventionally would have far, far outstripped the casualties suffered by the bombs. Dropping those bombs and forcing an unconditional surrender actually saved many millions of lives, both American and Japanese. BTW both cities were also legitimate military targets. Unfortunately, as in every war in history, civilians get killed. The difference is that civilians were not the target in these cases.*** +++ I completely disagree with you. The bombing of the Japanese was unnecessary and barbaric. The destructive potential of the bombs could have been demonstrated without the need for any casualties and had the same results, but the Americans wanted a field test. Sure, there were justifications as military targets, but the tests performed on their own soldiers showed the Atomic bombs to be completely indiscriminate in the damage dealt.+++ 7. Yes it's about time something was done, but again it shows up the hipocrisy of Americans. America has been arressting and detaining suspected terrorists without trial, including those of nationalities other than Afghanistan or Middle-East, but it's only when an American citizen is detained that there's an outcry about this. *** RESPONSE - suspected terrorists are not American citizens, so they do not have contitutional rights, including a 'speedy trial'. Since they do not belong to a country that has declared war, they are also not covered under the Geneva Convention as POWs. We COULD just execute them and be done with it, but we don't. We feed them, clothe them, and go out of our way to respect their religious beliefs at the taxpayer's expense. As for their native countries, only Britain asked for their nationals back. Nobody else wants the rest... *** +++ Either that or they don't want to be seen as offside. I don't disagree with the treatment, I was just raising that the only time an outcry was made was when one of the prisoners was American.+++ On a final note, I'm not saying America is evil or that terrorism is a legitimate tactic, just that no regime is innocent in what has happened. *** RESPONSE - no one is completely innocent in the history of every nation. Our own nation had slavery and the displacement of the Indians. BUT...as nearly all nations have, we have grown and changed and progressed. No matter the sins of the government, you cannot justify the deliberate targeting of civilians that occurred on 9/11/2002 *** +++ I agree. And remember, just because a section of a community or country performs the actions, you cannot condemn the entirety. The IRA doesn't represent the Irish, suicide bombers don't represent Palestinians, and people like Timothy McVeigh don't represent Americans.+++
Good conversation gentlemen. All valid points, and all are debatable, but we resisted the flame impulse. The begining of understanding starts with topics like this.
---------------------------- Originally posted by Chronigan: I just have to open my mouth.... To qoute spiderman "With great power comes great responsablity" ---------------------------- ??? That quote isn't originally from spiderman, F00! Typical american presumption. what's wrong with u ppl, u don't know a thing about squat, and you act all big. geeze
This may be my arrogant American assumption, but the movie Spiderman may have borrowed this quote from somewhere else.
I am so pleased to have participated in this discussion. For the most part, all points have been made intelligently. It IS possible to have differing viewpoints, yet refrain from descending into flaming and namecalling. One response to the gentleman from Ireland. I do not believe that Ireland has the religious freedom the US does, but that is probably because I am defining it differently than you. In the USA, we have no official or state-sponsored/supported religion. I believe that Ireland's official church is Roman Catholic (if I am wrong please correct me...gently) just as Germany's is Lutheran, England's is Anglican, and Japan's is Shinto. To me, religious freedom also means that the government does not favor one over another. BTW, this is not Catholic-bashing or religious bashing of any sort. I am Roman Catholic myself! A list of my favorite countries other than the USA that I love because of the general mindset of the people and/or the freedoms they enjoy. I will NEVER bash or denigrate any of these: Canada, Britain, Ireland, Scotland (i know, i know - it's part of Britain, but I love it!!), Australia, Austria, Costa Rica, Germany, Hong Kong (i know it's part of China now, but they will never lose their uniqueness), Taiwan, Japan, S. Korea, Monaco, Italy, Poland, Bahamas, Tazmania. Sorry if I left out some that I can't think of. Special Honorable Mention goes to Russia and Ukraine - they are trying so hard to make the transition from communism to capitalism. Russia especially gets kudos for implementing a flat-tax income tax structure before even we Yanks have gotten it figured out!!
As far as i know that quote came from the very old spider man comics, its what his uncle told him. If i'm wrong feel free to tell me where the quote came from. America gets involved with other countrys becuase they see its a mistake not too, remember WW2? we sat back and watched germany attack europe thiking"this doesnt concern us, just another european war" that is until germany got much more powerful and japan attack pearl harbor, then after america cooled down about pearl harbor they realized that they better do something or germany will come after them next, and i must admit without america germany would have rolled over europe in no time.{kudos to the russians for helping us win, stupid hitler fighting on to many fronts.}
Don't like us when we don't, and when we do. Hmmmmmmmm.
Twas reading back through some of these posts and found a lot of bad examples being given. We have to remember that in any group of people, there will always be some fringe element that does not represent the group's ideals/ideas as a whole. ex. America does not supply the IRA and the KKK does not make policy, the neo-Nazis do not represent the mainstream views of Germany, the nutso terrorists do not represent the peaceful Muslims throughout the world, the Brits do not all have lousy teeth, and (in a poke at myself) the French are not ALL Socialist, backstabbing, b4stards (the folks around Normandy are actually quite friendly). Just be careful when you make accusations against a country and it's policies that you are not taking a small group and letting it's actions speak for the whole.
Right on IHateTheFrench! 9-11 was just the most recent in a string of attacks. -Kobar towers, 20+ US Airmen died, Saudi Arabia -First WTC bombing -US Embassies in Africa -USS Cole -More US Embassies We have been attacked before but it was either against our military or overseas so the adverage person didn't see it as a threat that needed dealing with. Sure we threw a few missiles but nothing more. Every country has a right to look out after it's best interests, it's people, it's ideals. The US is looking out for herself. If that bothers some of you then please go to Saudi or Egypt and become a citizen then speak out against the goverment, there will be one less Renagade player when you do.
america is also guilty of genocide read up on the armenian genocide(if you can even find anything, the us has gone inot cover up mode with this event). also america wanted to get into WW2 but was lloking for an excuse to because of the current policy of isolationism(im taking my social 20 exam tomorrow so i should know what im talking about.) and finally just a humorous little sidenote; Canada burnt down the whitehouse in the war of 1812 which is why many gov. buildings in D.C. are now made of stone
Quote Excellent! You Irish also have the 2nd best beer (after Germany) and the Most Beautiful Red-Headed Women in the world! Oh yeah...the rolling green countryside is just amazing as well. Quote Ireland, probably the best country in the world.
Excellent! You Irish also have the 2nd best beer (after Germany) and the Most Beautiful Red-Headed Women in the world! Oh yeah...the rolling green countryside is just amazing as well.
Quote from CrazyIke: america is also guilty of genocide read up on the armenian genocide(if you can even find anything, the us has gone inot cover up mode with this event). also america wanted to get into WW2 but was lloking for an excuse to because of the current policy of isolationism(im taking my social 20 exam tomorrow so i should know what im talking about.) and finally just a humorous little sidenote; Canada burnt down the whitehouse in the war of 1812 which is why many gov. buildings in D.C. are now made of stone Ummmm...might wanna change colleges. Looks like you are going to one with those liberal revisionist profs that change the history they teach to fit what they believe. Is is Berkeley? 1. Coverup mode on Armenian genocide? Sorry dudeski - there is a such thing as the secret too big to keep. Can't cover up the entire Internet, ya know. 2. Correct on entry into WWII - Americans supported the war effort in Britain, but were not ready to enter ourselves. Instead, the government supplied troops, materials, and supplies...unofficially. 3. Canada did not burn the White House. The British did. Period. And why exactly is the burning of the White House humerous? I would not laugh if the Kremlin were destroyed..or the Bundestag...or any other national seat of power. Sounds like you are not only a liberal turd, but a conspiracy geek and a sicko...get a life and stay away from animals carnally.
Every nation on this planet should be thankful for the US..if it wasnt for the US most of you ****-ass nations would not be here now!!! Im so sick of these whinning ppl dissing the US you hate us in non-war ...you love us when we liberate your fricking countries...you love our money that we give you every year (totaling in the billions) (US taxpayers money!..) if I had my way.. I would cut off all boarders...put a wall around the US..kick out all of the anti-US haters and not let anyone else into our country..cut off all aid to other countries..and if then any country wants to mess with us..then I say *****-slap them back into the stone-age.. oh..wait a tick..most of you still live in the stone age... If you do not like the USA fine...but you had better wake up and realize that w/o the US...you other countries would fail to be! the world would be in utter chaos (worse than it is now) IMO
Refering to IHTF'S comment about support for the British before the war: It was called the ships for bases deal. We provided ships from our fleet for patrol duty off thier coast, as well as parts, food, etc. In exchange we received "bases" overseas to operate from. Really just a prestaging of our troops for the imminent war that a reluctant US populous had trouble facing.
why wouldnt you want to let anyone else into the country? blocking foreign travelers to our country is what the kkk wants to do. If people want to move to the US let them, they will do our country proud. Just enforce boarder patrol, like say allow them to shoot boarder hoppers. I myself live in arizona right next to the boarder and many illegial imagrants cross over here, Its fine to imagrate as long as you do it legally, just pass the **** test and get a green card, illegal imagrants dont have to pay taxes so in a sense they are living in our country for free and thats not right.
In reply to ID_Ghost: I haven't seen anyone being anti-american or saying that they hate america in any of the previous posts. Most people are only pointing out that certain political and economic decisions and fringe groups in any country/regime, not just America, cause ill feelings, both justified and unjustified. And part of what makes democratic countries like america so great is their multiculturalism, being able to receive the best people, ideas and products from other countries and integrate them with their own.
i dont really hate america as country but the america government ****ing sucks and needs to be restructured. same goes for canada, except that canada is better than amreica.
This is a Tactic & Strategy forum so why aren't we talking about Tactics & Stratigies.