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description: C&C: Renegade --> Dying since 2003™, resurrected in 2024!
items: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
items: Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality

Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Source Quote: The last Catholic adoption agency in the UK to refuse to serve gay couples has won its High Court appeal. Leeds-based Catholic Care was appealing against a Charity Commission ruling which said it could not discriminate against gay would-be parents. Today, the High Court allowed its appeal. Mr Justice Briggs ordered the Charity Commission to reconsider the case. A Charity Commission spokeswoman said this afternoon she could not yet comment on whether the commission would appeal against the decision. The charity had pleaded with the commission for an exemption from the law, saying it would close rather than place children with gay couples. Catholic Care had wanted to take advantage of a clause in the 2007 Sexual Orientation Regulations which allows charities to discriminate by amending their charitable objectives. However it was barred from doing so by the Charity Commission. All other Catholic adoption agencies have severed their ties with the church or closed down since the 2007 Sexual Orientation Regulations came into power. They were given a two-year window in which to comply with the law. Earlier this month, bishops for the three areas the agency serves said that children would "suffer" if Catholic Care was forced to close. The agencies have typically worked to find homes for the children with the most troubled histories. In a statement, the Bishop of Leeds Arthur Roche said that children would be "seriously disadvantaged" if the court had not agreed with the charity. He said: "Catholic Care has been providing specialist adoption services for over 100 years. "We have helped hundreds of children through the recruitment, assessment, training and support for prospective adoptive parents as well as offering ongoing and post-adoption support to families that give such security and love for some of the most vulnerable children in our society. "The judgment today will help in our determination to continue to provide this invaluable service to benefit child…
creator: Spoony
date: 2010-03-17T18:37:37-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Utterly unfair - I know more homosexual couples than I do heterosexual ones that I would want children to be raised by. Baseless, unfair discrimination, plain and simple.
creator: CarrierII
date: 2010-03-17T18:57:34-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Children in the care of any catholic people are seriously in danger to be honest. I don't care if I'm stereotyping but with how many children get abused by catholic priests and such. Also with religious brainwashing etc... I'm not exactly saying they are selling the kids to catholic gays, that is not really what I'm on about. Just the thought of catholics looking after a bunch of kids in a re-homing center gives me the creeps. flame me, whatever.
creator: jnz
date: 2010-03-17T19:26:44-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Yeah, this shit is beyond stupid. Why the fuck can't society stop clinging to retarded, illogical religious beliefs? Fuck, you'd think if anything, the religious types would be MORE accepting...
creator: GEORGE ZIMMER
date: 2010-03-17T19:53:57-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: While there is really no existing argument that can soundly argue why homosexuality is wrong, there is more grounds to want to argue against having a child adopted into a homosexual family. That's not to say that it's necessarily wrong to do that either. What I'm getting at is that it is obvious that, regardless of the lack of logical reasoning, there are many people in the world who hold homosexuals in contempt. People will go to extremes to express their beliefs and fight to the ends of the earth for a cause they don't fully understand themselves. Therefore, it is a likely scenario that if you allow a child to be adopted into a homosexual family, there is a higher chance of risk or harm for the child. It really doesn't matter how capable the would-be parents are. Again, it's not wrong to be homosexual nor is it right to deny a homosexual couple to adopt a kid. But it is something that should be considered appropriately.
creator: R315r4z0r
date: 2010-03-17T20:30:10-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: R315r4z0r wrote on Wed, 17 March 2010 14:30 While there is really no existing argument that can soundly argue why homosexuality is wrong, there is more grounds to want to argue against having a child adopted into a homosexual family. That's not to say that it's necessarily wrong to do that either. What I'm getting at is that it is obvious that, regardless of the lack of logical reasoning, there are many people in the world who hold homosexuals in contempt. People will go to extremes to express their beliefs and fight to the ends of the earth for a cause they don't fully understand themselves. Therefore, it is a likely scenario that if you allow a child to be adopted into a homosexual family, there is a higher chance of risk or harm for the child. It really doesn't matter how capable the would-be parents are. Again, it's not wrong to be homosexual nor is it right to deny a homosexual couple to adopt a kid. But it is something that should be considered appropriately. well, if this is the best argument against it... i.e. that there is a lot of anti-homosexual prejudice, then this has two implications. firstly this seems to entail that we should also "consider appropriately" every other group who has suffered comparable prejudice. judaism springs to mind, as well as various christian denominations, as well as atheists. secondly, why has there been two thousand years of homophobic feeling even in the civilised world? i'll tell you: two thousand years of christianity. christianity's iron grip on society, especially education, has flooded the western world with propaganda against homosexuality, even though it utterly fails when the subject is actually debated. so the problem is, again, the fact that christianity and catholicism has enormous control over children, specifically education. why is this the case in the supposedly civilised world? this is what needs to be changed. Quote: Children in the care of any catholic people are seriously in danger to be honest. I don't ca…
creator: Spoony
date: 2010-03-17T21:05:50-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: I think you misapplied my meaning. I didn't mean to say "use caution when letting homosexuals adopt a kid because they put kids in harms way." I was saying that we need to observe the living conditions of the child's would-be home before anyone can be allowed to adopt, regardless of their race, beliefs or life style. The child's safety and future should be the first priority. The would-be parent's parenting abilities should be second priority. The parent's race, beliefs or orientation shouldn't even be considered. (Their background, however, should be looked into in order to determine if they are the right type of person to raise a kid. You don't want to just simply let a convicted felon walk away with a child without as much as a second-guess.)
creator: R315r4z0r
date: 2010-03-17T21:33:55-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: I also read your post and thought you was saying "Allot of people do not like Homo-sexuals, so kids might be in danger around them because of all the homo-phobes out there".
creator: reborn
date: 2010-03-17T21:40:17-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: R315r4z0r wrote on Wed, 17 March 2010 15:33 I think you misapplied my meaning. I didn't mean to say "use caution when letting homosexuals adopt a kid because they put kids in harms way." I was saying that we need to observe the living conditions of the child's would-be home before anyone can be allowed to adopt, regardless of their race, beliefs or life style. Your post didn't really make any sense at all, frankly. Quote: The child's safety and future should be the first priority. The would-be parent's parenting abilities should be second priority. The parent's race, beliefs or orientation shouldn't even be considered. You say beliefs shouldn't be considered... does that include if they were neo-nazis, for example? Or, to take a more likely (and more relevant) case, if they are a member of an organisation with a policy and history of systematically protecting child rapists from the law and permitting them to continue raping the children in their care? Isn't membership of an organisation as evil as that worth consideration? Quote: (Their background, however, should be looked into in order to determine if they are the right type of person to raise a kid. You don't want to just simply let a convicted felon walk away with a child without as much as a second-guess.) You certainly don't. You protect children from these monsters. The Catholic Church does the opposite; it protects the monsters and allows them to go on raping children, and it threatens its employees with the most horrific punishment imaginable if they co-operate with police investigations. Then, after demonstrating a moral standard on sexual matters that's about as bad as I can imagine, it has the fucking nerve to lecture the rest of us on morality. It rails against the real evils of the world... condoms, gay people being allowed to enjoy their lives without harrassment, etc etc etc. I think it's a pity there isn't a hell for Ratzinger to go to.
creator: Spoony
date: 2010-03-17T21:42:30-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: GEORGE ZIMMER wrote on Wed, 17 March 2010 13:53 Fuck, you'd think if anything, the religious types would be MORE accepting... Yes and no... Yes, some churches of many different beliefs have been openly accepting homosexuals with the idea we are all God's children or whatever else about forgiveness and not judging... Some say that The Bible is not actually against homosexuality. No, some people feel very strongly that marriage should only be between a man and a woman, and the whole idea of what is "natural"... Of course we all know that a man and a man can not reproduce and the same for a woman and a woman, but that is not much of an arguement to most people, while with others that is proof enough. I am sure most of you have heard the saying, "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve"... Going along with the "no" response is a thought about forgiveness that someone said to me a while back. If you view something as a sin (E.g excessive driking, gambling, fornication), but you slip up and do it anyways, are you forgiven? Well the general idea is we are not perfect so we make mistakes, it just depends on how you feel afterwards, and if you just plan on doing it again the next day... Excessive drinking, gambling, and fornication are pretty common "sins" that most everyone will experience at least once in their life. But if you get in a habbit of doing these things consistently there are support groups and programs that are supposed to help you. You may also have a homosexual experience once in your life, but to call it a "problem" or have support groups for this would make a lot of people very upset to say the least. I think I may be going off track so I will just sum it up real fast... If you are a homosexual and you plan on continuing that life style, but you view it as a "sin" yourself, I would not expect you to ask for forgiveness. I don't want to argue is religion right or wrong in this thread, I just wanted to state why I thought some religions/churches may or may not acce…
creator: Clark Kent
date: 2010-03-17T22:02:42-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Clark Kent wrote on Wed, 17 March 2010 16:02 Yes, some churches of many different beliefs have been openly accepting homosexuals with the idea we are all God's children or whatever else about forgiveness and not judging... Some say that The Bible is not actually against homosexuality. the bible is rabidly homophobic, particularly the old testament. but it's also a pretty shitty moral guide in a lot of other areas too. Quote: No, some people feel very strongly that marriage should only be between a man and a woman ah, marriage. firstly, the idea that marriage is between a man and a woman is actually quite recent. for a lot of history, it was more along the lines of one man and several women. indeed, this is mentioned in the bible, as well as in islamic tradition (the prophet mohammed had several wives, his favourite of whom - aisha - he married when she was six) we did generally evolve past that thinking into the more recent idea of marriage being one man and one woman. but here's something that only became widespread VERY recently: the idea that marriage can be about love. traditionally, marriage was always about wealth and power. form a bond with the right family, to protect your land and your money. the idea of marriage being about love is very new, and yet i think most people would agree that it's a good thing that we generally think of marriage this way now, just as they would probably agree that getting rid of polygamy is probably an improvement too. Quote: and the whole idea of what is "natural"... homosexuality is perfectly natural. it isn't a choice, some people simply are homosexual. it also occurs in other species. and yet another thing that must be challenged is the idea that "natural" is automatically a synonym for "desirable". rape, for example, is very common in nature, very common indeed. most of us condemn rape, even though the bible does not. and if you instead believe that we're created by god, then perhaps you can explain why god would create so m…
creator: Spoony
date: 2010-03-17T22:29:14-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: First off I would define "sin" as anything that The Bible says is wrong. Of course if you don't believe in The Bible or God for that matter, than none of that even matters. As I said I didn't want to debate truth in either. I wasn't saying homosexuals should be denied the right to have kids because they could not make them themselves, I am sure there are many homosexual couples that are more than capable of raising kids to be functional and productive members of society (even better than some heterosexual couples). That was more along with the "natural" part, as in nature doesn't allow for them to make kids together, so a lot of people would see it as they are not supposed to have kids... I hope you don't think I am "dodging" questions here, but I don't see any point in discussing the truth in the religion part. I just wanted to say a couple reasons why I would expect some believers to be for or against homosexuality in response to Zimmer's comment.
creator: Clark Kent
date: 2010-03-18T00:06:00-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Clark Kent wrote on Wed, 17 March 2010 18:06 First off I would define "sin" as anything that The Bible says is wrong. That's all that is required to define a sin, then? You don't actually have to make a moral case against it, you only need to say that a book disapproves of it? Well, the Bible disapproves of a great many things and outright prohibits many others, many of which many modern Christians do - various dietary laws, for example. More importantly, if there's anything which makes the biblical god angrier than anything else, it's disbelief in him, or worshipping gods other than himself. Quote: Of course if you don't believe in The Bible or God for that matter, than none of that even matters. It would be nice if that was the case. Sadly those who do believe in god and the bible tend to be very keen to insist that we all follow their rules. Quote: As I said I didn't want to debate truth in either. That's a shame, because I do. Quote: I wasn't saying homosexuals should be denied the right to have kids because they could not make them themselves, I am sure there are many homosexual couples that are more than capable of raising kids to be functional and productive members of society (even better than some heterosexual couples). Cool. Quote: That was more along with the "natural" part, as in nature doesn't allow for them to make kids together, so a lot of people would see it as they are not supposed to have kids... My earlier question re: infertile people seems to apply here. You say "not supposed to". That implies somebody decided that the person would be homosexual and would not be able to biologically conceive a child (not quite true, but at least would not be inclined to enter a heterosexual relationship). If somebody is infertile, is it not the case that this person was "not supposed to have kids", decided by the same somebody who creates certain people homosexual? Quote: I hope you don't think I am "dodging" questions here It was advice for the future, not a r…
creator: Spoony
date: 2010-03-18T00:31:11-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: like cornered cats fight better...old religious bullyies do the same. lol? these morons = have no clue. FUN FACT: sky god concept to dieout in next 150 years
creator: bunka
date: 2010-03-18T03:33:05-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Spoony wrote on Wed, 17 March 2010 18:31 Clark Kent wrote on Wed, 17 March 2010 18:06 First off I would define "sin" as anything that The Bible says is wrong. That's all that is required to define a sin, then? You don't actually have to make a moral case against it, you only need to say that a book disapproves of it? Well, the Bible disapproves of a great many things and outright prohibits many others, many of which many modern Christians do - various dietary laws, for example. More importantly, if there's anything which makes the biblical god angrier than anything else, it's disbelief in him, or worshipping gods other than himself. Quote: Of course if you don't believe in The Bible or God for that matter, than none of that even matters. It would be nice if that was the case. Sadly those who do believe in god and the bible tend to be very keen to insist that we all follow their rules. If I remember correctly, you mentioned in another thread that Christianity basically has a governmental seat in your country, right? That kind of thing is against my belief as well - we are charged to spread his word but not shove it down their throats. If we did what we could and they still don't believe, we don't relentlessly pursue it. Also, we are seperate from Catholicism and Baptism and all the other splinter denominations... that's why stories about this and that church irritate me, because they get associated with Christianity as a whole. As for the last part - would I force a nonbeliever to obey a Biblical rule? No. Would I fight against a governemtal decree legally allowing something I consider a sin? Yes, because not doing so would be allowing it, thus being an accomplice to said sin. Just my thoughts. Like I said, I just want to show that my - and my church's - position doesn't match other denominations.
creator: Altzan
date: 2010-03-18T04:22:40-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Altzan wrote on Wed, 17 March 2010 22:22 If I remember correctly, you mentioned in another thread that Christianity basically has a governmental seat in your country, right? Christianity is automatically given a whole block of seats in Parliament. 20-something of them, I believe. (There's never ever been a vote about this - it was set up when the king ran the show and elections were never even thought of.) We the people can vote for one MP for our region, as opposed to Americans who can vote for a senator and a congress member. That's not all. Christianity also has control over thousands and thousands of schools, as does the Catholic church. More recently, Judaism and Islam have been given control over schools too. I'm not sure if any other religions have, Sikhism might do, but the idea that a religion can have control over a school ought to be rather alarming. It's no different than the idea of a political ideology having control over a school. A "Catholic school" or a "Church of England school" or a "Protestant school" ought to be viewed the same as if someone said "a Labour school", a "Conservative school", a "Socialist school", "Communist school", "Neo-conservative school", "Nationalist school", etc. And if you want to see just how well religiously segregating our children works out, just look at Northern Ireland. And that's not all the privileges it has, though I'd say the automatic block of parliamentary seats and the control over thousands of schools are the important issues. Technically the monarch is the head of state. It isn't Gordon Brown, it wasn't Tony Blair. The monarch is also the head of the Church. I will admit that our current Queen is a decent person, but the reason I can say this is precisely because the monarchy doesn't really meddle in politics anymore, which begs the question why we still have it. What else? Blasphemy law. We only just got rid of that a couple of years ago. It used to be illegal to "blaspheme" Christianity. That's right. It ha…
creator: Spoony
date: 2010-03-18T08:43:25-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: There is zero research to support the arguement that there's a relationship between homosexual lifestyle and child molestation. Infact, it is proven that a child molester is unlikely to be attracted to adult males at all. That's a very 1970's attitude, and it was as ignorant back then as it is now. It's worse if you still think it now, as there has been some enlightenment in this area and people's eyes have opened to the matter more. This is akin to calling Jewish people baby killers. Minority groups that are disliked or feared often have the worst stereo types applied to them, even if there is no grounds for it. I think it's a pitiful arguement to suggest that children are in harms way from molestation if the adoptive parents are homosexual. Especially coming from the Catholic church, it's beyond belief they of all people would suggest this. However, there is an arguement against homosexuals adopting children... Quote: American College of Pediatricians (ACP) "Data on the long-term outcomes of children placed in homosexual households is sparse and gives reason for concern. This research has revealed that children reared in homosexual households are more likely to experience sexual confusion, engage in risky sexual experimentation, and later adopt a homosexual identity. This is concerning since adolescents and young adults who adopt the homosexual lifestyle, are at increased risk for mental health problems, including major depression, anxiety disorders, conduct disorder, substance dependence, and especially suicidal ideation and suicide attempts..." Another reference There are areguements against this too in all fairness, but there have been numerous studies that support the basic idea of children raised in a homosexual environment are more likely to be homosexual, or at least sexually confused. Even if you accept this argument as fact, I suppose it depends on your view of whether it actually matters or not? Lets assume that it is true (I know this is an assumption, …
creator: reborn
date: 2010-03-18T12:56:09-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: reborn wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 06:56 There is zero research to support the arguement that there's a relationship between homosexual lifestyle and child molestation. Infact, it is proven that a child molester is unlikely to be attracted to adult males at all. That's a very 1970's attitude, and it was as ignorant back then as it is now. It's worse if you still think it now, as there has been some enlightenment in this area and people's eyes have opened to the matter more. This is akin to calling Jewish people baby killers. Minority groups that are disliked or feared often have the worst stereo types applied to them, even if there is no grounds for it. I think it's a pitiful arguement to suggest that children are in harms way from molestation if the adoptive parents are homosexual. Especially coming from the Catholic church, it's beyond belief they of all people would suggest this. the irony is, there actually are two good arguments to suggest that catholics are more likely to molest children than non-catholics. the first is the knowledge that if you were a catholic priest and you did rape a child, your company would help you cover it up. of course, the fear of punishment is certainly not what stops most people raping children - basic moral concerns as well as simply not being attracted to kids does the job for most of us - but there you have one of the three reasons not to do it shattered. the second is simply a product of extreme sexual repression. this is well known to have damaging effects on people's mental state. to give a simple example, prison. many people who enter into homosexual acts in prison aren't actually homosexual, they're just desperate. another example, closer to the point, is how common rape is in islamic countries. one reason for this is the fact that their governments do not recognise rape as a crime - indeed some of them recognise rape as a legally sanctioned punishment (i'm seriously not making that up), the other reason is a combination of …
creator: Spoony
date: 2010-03-18T13:54:17-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Spoony wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 08:54 I don't accept the argument in the first place. If somebody is going to say that raising kids in a homosexual environment is going to make them homosexual, how on earth can we explain the existence of homosexuals in heterosexual environments, especially since the societies have always, always persecuted homosexuality? You followed that through logically, but you have changed what I said. The findings suggest a greater chance, not a certainty. You said "is going to make them homosexual", this implies an absolute; I never said that. They are suggesting that there is simply a greater chance of the child being homosexual, not a certainty. Use that same logic and think of it from this perspective: A hetrosexual couple's offspring have an increased chance of being hetrosexual. Therefore does it not seem logical that a homosexual environment would produce offspring that had an increased chance of being homosexual? I don't know the figures, but it could prove that the child has a 15% chance of being homosexual if raised by homosexual aprents, instead of 10% in a hetrosexual environment. I'm not suggesing certainties, just an increased chance. You must accept that children learn behaviour from parents? It doesn't seem impossible to me that homosexual parents influence the chance fo their children being homosexual. Can you really not accept that there is a chance of this? I'm not saying it's a bad thing, it just seems obvious to me o.0 Spoony wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 08:54 The only reason for the supposed negative effects of being homosexual, the problems a homosexual person could suffer that a heterosexual person would not, is the result of the appalling prejudice they suffer, almost entirely thanks to religion. I have thought about this, and as I am about to be a father very soon, I took this discussion seriously. I have come to the conclusion that I would prefer my child to not be homosexual. Not because I am a biggot or a homoph…
creator: reborn
date: 2010-03-18T14:59:34-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: reborn wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 08:59 Spoony wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 08:54 I don't accept the argument in the first place. If somebody is going to say that raising kids in a homosexual environment is going to make them homosexual, how on earth can we explain the existence of homosexuals in heterosexual environments, especially since the societies have always, always persecuted homosexuality? You followed that through logically, but you have changed what I said. The findings suggest a greater chance, not a certainty. You said "is going to make them homosexual", this implies an absolute; I never said that. They are suggesting that there is simply a greater chance of the child being homosexual, not a certainty. Use that same logic and think of it from this perspective: A hetrosexual couple's offspring have an increased chance of being hetrosexual. Therefore does it not seem logical that a homosexual environment would produce offspring that had an increased chance of being homosexual? I don't know the figures, but it could prove that the child has a 15% chance of being homosexual if raised by homosexual aprents, instead of 10% in a hetrosexual environment. I'm not suggesing certainties, just an increased chance. You must accept that children learn behaviour from parents? It doesn't seem impossible to me that homosexual parents influence the chance fo their children being homosexual. Can you really not accept that there is a chance of this? I'm not saying it's a bad thing, it just seems obvious to me o.0 That is not the case. Kids brought up by SameSex Couples do not have a higher chance of becoming homosexual.
creator: Herr Surth
date: 2010-03-18T15:14:17-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: reborn wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 08:59 You followed that through logically, but you have changed what I said. The findings suggest a greater chance, not a certainty. You said "is going to make them homosexual", this implies an absolute; I never said that. They are suggesting that there is simply a greater chance of the child being homosexual, not a certainty. Use that same logic and think of it from this perspective: A hetrosexual couple's offspring have an increased chance of being hetrosexual. Therefore does it not seem logical that a homosexual environment would produce offspring that had an increased chance of being homosexual? I don't know the figures, but it could prove that the child has a 15% chance of being homosexual if raised by homosexual aprents, instead of 10% in a hetrosexual environment. I'm not suggesing certainties, just an increased chance. Well, I don't think that can be conclusively stated. Is it not much more likely that, instead, children who happen to be homosexual and have heterosexual parents are more likely to grow up in an environment that disapproves of them, and therefore they will feel that they have to keep their sexuality secret? Quote: You must accept that children learn behaviour from parents? It doesn't seem impossible to me that homosexual parents influence the chance fo their children being homosexual. Well, if parents are: - racist - homophobic - violent - religious fanatics then this will certainly affect the kids and probably make them more likely to grow up with these too. but there are two reasons why "homosexual" doesn't belong on the list. 1. nobody's explained why homosexuality is actually a bad thing 2. i am willing to grant that if a heterosexual child sees his homosexual parents at it, he might be inspired to try a homosexual relationship. i'll grant that. it sounds damn silly to me, but i'll grant it for the sake of your argument. what i can't grant is the possibility that they might, as a result of trying that, "t…
creator: Spoony
date: 2010-03-18T15:25:49-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: I beleive that homosexuals should choose not to have kids, but forcing them not to is wrong i gusse. They shouldn't really have kids because say two females adopt a male baby. Now that baby is going to have two women as parents. That male baby needs a father role model instead of two females. Not to mention in school if other kids find out they will more then likely make of fun him.
creator: wubwub
date: 2010-03-18T15:40:56-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: WubWub wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 09:40 I beleive that homosexuals should choose not to have kids, but forcing them not to is wrong i gusse. They shouldn't really have kids because say two females adopt a male baby. Now that baby is going to have two women as parents. That male baby needs a father role model instead of two females. Not to mention in school if other kids find out they will more then likely make of fun him. MALE BABIES NEED FATHERS OR THEY WILL BECOME METROSEXUAL LOBSTERS fucking idiot.
creator: Herr Surth
date: 2010-03-18T15:42:33-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Spoony wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 10:25 It still hinges on the case being proven that you could actually make someone more likely to become homosexual if the parents are Yeah, I agree. It does all pretty much ride on that. I do tend to think though that you might be putting the cart before the horse with this: Spoony wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 10:25 Is it not much more likely that, instead, children who happen to be homosexual and have heterosexual parents are more likely to grow up in an environment that disapproves of them, and therefore they will feel that they have to keep their sexuality secret? Perhaps I'm over estimating the influence parents have, or perhaps you're under-estimating their affect. I am a believer in "Monkey see, monkey do". Spoony wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 10:25 there is a point to be made in the opposite direction. if a child is homosexual, who is most likely to treat them with the understanding they need? homosexual parents, or heterosexual parents? who's less likely to be homophobic? You're right, the homosexual parents might have a greater chance of being empathetic and understanding. I'm going to throw the unconditional love you have for your child in there just not to write off hetrosexual parents ability to support their child, but I concede that there are children too afraid to tell their parents through fear of judgement (arguable that in some cases this may be justifyable fear, and in other cases their own fear being un-justified). However, in my mind, if they do have a greater chance of being homosexual because of their parents being homosexual too, then surely the need for this understanding would be reduced if they was in a hetrosexual environment because there is less chance of them being homosexual? Hmm, kinda weak arguement I suppose, and leaves a prejudice taste in my mouth actually, or at least an ignorant attitude (avoid the issue altogether then we dont need to understand it!1!!!1!!), but I can kinda see this point. Meh…
creator: reborn
date: 2010-03-18T16:22:35-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Quote: Spoony wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 10:25 Is it not much more likely that, instead, children who happen to be homosexual and have heterosexual parents are more likely to grow up in an environment that disapproves of them, and therefore they will feel that they have to keep their sexuality secret? Perhaps I'm over estimating the influence parents have, or perhaps you're under-estimating their affect. I am a believer in "Monkey see, monkey do". well, if you see some people kissing and you feel like trying it, aren't you more likely to want to try it with someone you're actually attracted to...? Spoony wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 10:25 You're right, the homosexual parents might have a greater chance of being empathetic and understanding. i think there's no "might" about it. i'm pretty confident that a far greater proportion of heterosexual adults are overly homophobic than homosexual adults. Quote: I'm going to throw the unconditional love you have for your child in there just not to write off hetrosexual parents ability to support their child i'd like to think that all parents had unconditional love for their children, but i suspect it isn't always the case. Quote: but I concede that there are children too afraid to tell their parents through fear of judgement (arguable that in some cases this may be justifyable fear, and in other cases their own fear being un-justified). and i think it's a much higher number than you probably think. as for whether it's justified, well, it would be difficult to know in advance for sure how your parents would react if you told them you were gay. i wonder how much thought your brother put into it before telling you and your parents? Quote: However, in my mind, if they do have a greater chance of being homosexual because of their parents being homosexual too, then surely the need for this understanding would be reduced if they was in a hetrosexual environment because there is less chance of them being homosexual? Hmm, kinda weak ar…
creator: Spoony
date: 2010-03-18T16:40:43-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Spoony wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 11:40 i think there's no "might" about it. i'm pretty confident that a far greater proportion of heterosexual adults are overly homophobic than homosexual adults. Yeah, you're probably right. There could be some special cases, but pretty much across the board, I would imagine you're right. Spoony wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 11:40 i'd like to think that all parents had unconditional love for their children, but i suspect it isn't always the case. Yeah, it's a sad truth. But having said that, I would guess there is a proportionate amount of homosexual parents lacking this same instinct, too. Spoony wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 11:40 and i think it's a much higher number than you probably think. Hmm, I would aim pretty high. Some friends of the family are in their 60's and they never told their parents. It's very sad, his mother actually passed in January, and he never found the courage to let her know about that side of him. Two friends of the family in their late Forties do not tell people at work, and at work functions they have a friend to take as their partner. They live a lie, for whatever reasons, this is sad. Spoony wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 11:40 as for whether it's justified, well, it would be difficult to know in advance for sure how your parents would react if you told them you were gay. i wonder how much thought your brother put into it before telling you and your parents? My parents made a point of letting us both know they would love us no matter what we chose. This I believe was in part because they knew (or suspected) my Brother was homosexual from a young age, and felt it would make it easier for him. However, my Brother still felt he could only tell my Mum, and asked her to let me and my Dad know, he didn't want to talk about it because he was embarrassed. I however felt it was important to tell him I loved him and broke the ice immediately. I think it was the right thing to do. This only further strengthens your a…
creator: reborn
date: 2010-03-18T18:41:15-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: As to whether homosexuality may beget more homosexuality: In my experience, which when it comes to people who've been abused, which is regrettably extensive, as well as with people who've had happier lives, I've found that sexuality cannot be "learned", enforced, or changed. It is most definately innate. @WubWub: As to being made fun of for having same-sex parents, children at school are made fun of for any reason whatsoever. That's a sad fact of life. My repsonse (to bullies in general) often used to relate to how my parents were still in a happy marriage. School includes a pointless game of one-up-manship, it's nothing new. Are you sure all children need a male rolemodel? I know someone whose father was a drug-taking psychopath who murdered someone in front of her... I wouldn't want her following his lead... (Oh, BTW, she's heterosexual, despite having this negative male influence in her life...) General point: Good parents (of either sexuality) should not be concerned for which gender their children (adopted or not) express a preference for (or indeed either gender), but should be concerned with their children being happy in whatever relationship(s) they find. I'm not homosexual (despite what JohnDoe (probably) thinks) but I could easily tell my parents I was, and there wouldn't be a problem. I guess I'm lucky. I remember when my cousin "came out" as being a lesbian, and my Mum said "What bothers us is that you felt you couldn't tell us.".
creator: CarrierII
date: 2010-03-18T18:44:06-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Spoony wrote on Wed, 17 March 2010 17:42 You say beliefs shouldn't be considered... does that include if they were neo-nazis, for example? Or, to take a more likely (and more relevant) case, if they are a member of an organisation with a policy and history of systematically protecting child rapists from the law and permitting them to continue raping the children in their care? Isn't membership of an organisation as evil as that worth consideration? No, their beliefs still should not be considered. If you start disallowing services to people of certain groups or beliefs, then you are: 1. Doing the exact same thing that Christians are doing against homosexuals. 2. Giving Christians ammunition for arguments concerning why their way of thinking is correct. It does not matter what group or party or orientation the would-be parents are. If you take another look at the list of priorities I made, you will notice that I said that the child's safety and future should be made first priority. If said organization is indeed into such heinous acts against children, then it stands to reason that they wont meet the qualifications for the first priority that I laid out. No one should be disallowed a service based on some superficial appearance. They have to be physically proven to actually be either a bad influence or just a bad parent living in poor conditions. And even after a child has been adopted, there should be like a weekly or monthly visit from a child-service agent to check up on the child for at least the first year.
creator: R315r4z0r
date: 2010-03-18T18:50:27-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Spoony wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 02:43 Christianity is automatically given a whole block of seats in Parliament. 20-something of them, I believe. (There's never ever been a vote about this - it was set up when the king ran the show and elections were never even thought of.) We the people can vote for one MP for our region, as opposed to Americans who can vote for a senator and a congress member... And despite all this, despite the fact it's got all this land (which it didn't buy... it was given it by the monarchy), despite the fact it doesn't pay taxes, despite its dodgy financial dealings, it's still financially fucked and it's still always begging the taxpayer to pull it out. Well, I'm sorry, but if a company is doing as badly as that, then going belly-up would be a mercy. I don't see the Archbishop of Canterbury offering to sell either of his two palaces, for example, and living somewhere a little more modest. And this is a man who loves, absolutely loves to lecture we Brits on the dangers of "materialism", which is the best knock at atheism he can think of. That's right - he's basically the CEO of a company which insists on not paying taxes, which has very shady investment practices, which is if not the biggest landowner in the country must come pretty close, and he himself has two palaces both funded by the taxpayer. By comparison, I don't aspire to great wealth or extravagant possessions - give me my basic human rights, the freedom to live my life unharrassed and the freedom to examine and question the world, and to write and play my music, and I'm happy. Who's the materialistic one here, I wonder? Nicely written summary... I think that's way too much involvement in government. I wish you didn't have to put up with that every day. I don't really have any other comment here, unless you want one. Spoony wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 02:43 What about children, what do you tell them about Christianity? As for the blasphemy law, well, as ridiculous and immoral as b…
creator: Altzan
date: 2010-03-18T21:34:18-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: reborn wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 13:41 Spoony wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 11:40 as for whether it's justified, well, it would be difficult to know in advance for sure how your parents would react if you told them you were gay. i wonder how much thought your brother put into it before telling you and your parents? My parents made a point of letting us both know they would love us no matter what we chose. This I believe was in part because they knew (or suspected) my Brother was homosexual from a young age, and felt it would make it easier for him. However, my Brother still felt he could only tell my Mum, and asked her to let me and my Dad know, he didn't want to talk about it because he was embarrassed. I however felt it was important to tell him I loved him and broke the ice immediately. I think it was the right thing to do. This only further strengthens your arguement about just how many people tell their parents. My brother and I was fortunate to be raised in such a loving environment, and he still struggled with it. yeah, exactly. he was fortunate to have understanding parents and a great brother. you say he suffered a lot over his sexuality - imagine how much worse it would have been for him if his family, the only people in the world who you ought to be able to expect to love you for who you are, had been less tolerant of homosexuality. i'm sure a lot of people aren't so lucky. there are a distressing number of parents, particularly christians in the US (though it happens here too) who think that homosexuality ought to be and can be cured through counselling, and send their kids there. i think that this is the worst thing a parent can do in the situation. the kid knows he's gay and isn't going to magically become straight, and in response to all the bullying he may have suffered from ignorant kids at school, he's basically getting the message that: you're tempted to an immoral lifestyle, you're the one here who needs to change your ways, not the pricks who pi…
creator: Spoony
date: 2010-03-18T22:53:53-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Spoony wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 16:53 i'm curious to hear your response to what i said about religions having control over schools. I don't think religious schools work well, or at all - a school implies they are teaching fact, whereas religion is a belief that another may not share. So school and religion don't really mix. If anything, everyone should have a choice as to whether or not they want to attend. Spoony wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 16:53 That's what I thought. How objectively did they "teach you the faith"? For example, did they teach it as though it were revealed truth? Did they tell you right from the start that there's no evidence at all that the judeo-christian/islamic god even exists, let alone that this book and this religion is a reflection on what he expects of us? Did they point out to you that the book itself can't even get its own story straight? Did they tell you right from the start that there are all these other religions, as well as the possibility of living your life without one? (They probably had to say that two particular religions - Islam and Mormonism - are specifically untrue, because if they were true then you can't really avoid converting to them away from Christianity). Did they tell you the absolutely incalculable damage that the various flavours of Christianity have caused? Just off the top of my head... persecution of other religions every time it thought it could get away with it, two thousand years of horrific anti-semitism and anti-gay people, violently standing in the way of scientific progress, the crusades, the inquisition, willing tool of imperialism and of a huge list of dictators throughout the ages, enthusiastic ally of fascism in europe, and the enormous death toll it's helped to rack up by assisting the spread of AIDS by absurd rules on condoms, especially in africa? if they didn't tell you all that, then you weren't taught fairly. If I had to learn all that first, I'd be too overwhelmed to make an informed decisi…
creator: Altzan
date: 2010-03-18T23:57:12-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Altzan wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 17:57 I don't think religious schools work well, or at all - a school implies they are teaching fact, whereas religion is a belief that another may not share. So school and religion don't really mix. If anything, everyone should have a choice as to whether or not they want to attend. and should this not apply to parents too? would it not also make sense for parents not to fill the head of a child with religion before they're old enough to think critically about it? Spoony wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 16:53 If I had to learn all that first, I'd be too overwhelmed to make an informed decision. but you can't make an informed decision without it, can you? furthermore, is belief really a "decision"? most christian sects say that you will suffer the most horrific punishment imaginable if you believe the wrong thing, or to phrase it differently, if you don't believe the right thing. well, i could make an outward display of christianity. i could pretend i believed all this, i could probably fool anyone who took the time to wonder what my religious beliefs were, but if this god of yours can see and know everything including the contents of our minds, then i wouldn't be fooling god and i wouldn't be avoiding hell. what i can't do is flick a switch and make myself believe any of this, it's not the way the mind works, or at least not the way my mind works. Quote: The only time it can be taught 'fair' is if you learn it all for yourself, because it's obvious that if anyone teaches you, they'll present their own biased view along with it. then see above re: protecting kids from it. i'm an adult. you preach to me as much as you like, you present your case for believing what you believe and why you think it would be a good idea for me to believe it too, i would never tell you to shut up and i don't want anyone else telling you on my behalf. but i'm old enough to think critically, to hear a thing from someone and recognise that it might not be true,…
creator: Spoony
date: 2010-03-19T00:55:30-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Spoony wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 18:55 and should this not apply to parents too? would it not also make sense for parents not to fill the head of a child with religion before they're old enough to think critically about it? It makes sense, yes. Unfortuantely, I don't think the chances of that will rise anytime soon. Spoony wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 18:55 but you can't make an informed decision without it, can you? Nope. But I have yet to meet or hear of a parent who will give all this info before asking their child to make a decision. Spoony wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 18:55 furthermore, is belief really a "decision"? most christian sects say that you will suffer the most horrific punishment imaginable if you believe the wrong thing, or to phrase it differently, if you don't believe the right thing. well, i could make an outward display of christianity. i could pretend i believed all this, i could probably fool anyone who took the time to wonder what my religious beliefs were, but if this god of yours can see and know everything including the contents of our minds, then i wouldn't be fooling god and i wouldn't be avoiding hell. what i can't do is flick a switch and make myself believe any of this, it's not the way the mind works, or at least not the way my mind works. Why would it not be a decision? You've seen arguments on both sides and you've decided what you want to believe. That's a decision on your part, and you can't 'flip a switch' because it's considered an important decision, therefore you won't change your mind without heavy consideration. Spoony wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 18:55 then see above re: protecting kids from it. i'm an adult. you preach to me as much as you like, you present your case for believing what you believe and why you think it would be a good idea for me to believe it too, i would never tell you to shut up and i don't want anyone else telling you on my behalf. but i'm old enough to think critically, to hear a thing from someone and…
creator: Altzan
date: 2010-03-19T05:02:26-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Altzan wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 23:02 Spoony wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 18:55 and should this not apply to parents too? would it not also make sense for parents not to fill the head of a child with religion before they're old enough to think critically about it? It makes sense, yes. Unfortuantely, I don't think the chances of that will rise anytime soon. it's good to hear a religious person who agrees with this view. Quote: Spoony wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 18:55 but you can't make an informed decision without it, can you? Nope. But I have yet to meet or hear of a parent who will give all this info before asking their child to make a decision. says it all, really, doesn't it? Quote: Why would it not be a decision? You've seen arguments on both sides and you've decided what you want to believe. That's a decision on your part, and you can't 'flip a switch' because it's considered an important decision, therefore you won't change your mind without heavy consideration. see above re: not how the mind works. finding something believable or finding something incredible really isn't a 'decision'. Spoony wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 18:55 Very true. I'm curious - if you were to have a child of your own, what method would you use to teach him what theories there are about the origin of man and Earth while being neutral? I'm not asking for a huge explanation. But you support the idea of letting a child become old enough to understand that there are many ideas and theories out there, and allow them to decide for themselves. well, i don't want kids of my own but i'll answer anyway. this would also apply to educational policies. nothing religious, nothing that is dependent on 'faith' belongs in a science class. certainly you can tell people that a lot of people believe the genesis story, for example, just so long as you point out that we don't know who even wrote it, when, why, and how they knew what to write. and on that basis, and the fact there's no evidence at all to supp…
creator: Spoony
date: 2010-03-19T05:57:39-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: I find it absolutely appalling that the Churches have this much influence over governments. Religion has no place in the lawmaking and decision-making bodies of todays governments. I also see this as not a step backwards from acceptance of homosexuality, but a step towards homosexuality becoming illegal again. I'm gay. Does that mean I can't do things as well as someone who is straight? Does it mean that I can't raise a child with all the love and support it needs? Does it mean I can't be a role model for the child? Quite frankly, I could probably do a better job than a lot of straight couples could. Would this mean a child might grow up to be a homosexual because his/her parents are? Probably not. I am a firm believer that homosexuality is something that you are born with, it's NOT a choice. I didn't choose this lifestyle.. who would? It's hard to live as a homosexual. Although more people are open minded nowadays, its still seen as taboo in a lot of places. I could go on for pages on this subject so I'll stop there. Just giving my view on this :>
creator: raven
date: 2010-03-19T06:02:45-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: raven wrote on Fri, 19 March 2010 00:02 I'm gay. You're gay?
creator: Kimb
date: 2010-03-19T07:40:07-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Kimb wrote on Fri, 19 March 2010 01:40 raven wrote on Fri, 19 March 2010 00:02 I'm gay. You're gay? I do believe thats what I said. Does it matter?
creator: raven
date: 2010-03-19T07:46:05-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: raven wrote on Fri, 19 March 2010 01:46 Kimb wrote on Fri, 19 March 2010 01:40 raven wrote on Fri, 19 March 2010 00:02 I'm gay. You're gay? I do believe thats what I said. Does it matter? nope, just checking
creator: Kimb
date: 2010-03-19T08:34:25-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Kimb wrote on Fri, 19 March 2010 03:34 I do believe thats what I said. Does it matter? nope, just checking[/quote] LOL, you have a book of who's gay and who isn't or something? Raven, as a gay man, do you believe that you're either born homosexual, or not, and that's the only possibility? Or is there any room to become homosexual due to environment? I believe you already answered that quite clearly already, but I just want to make sure. I have always believed that people can be born homosexual, and this probably makes up for most of all homosexuals, no doubt. However, I also am inclined to think that people can become homosexual due to environment. Is this at least plausable, or infact insulting to even suggest?
creator: reborn
date: 2010-03-19T08:58:48-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: reborn wrote on Fri, 19 March 2010 02:58 LOL, you have a book of who's gay and who isn't or something? Razz Raven, as a gay man, do you believe that you're either born homosexual, or not, and that's the only possibility? Or is there any room to become homosexual due to environment? I believe you already answered that quite clearly already, but I just want to make sure. I have always believed that people can be born homosexual, and this probably makes up for most of all homosexuals, no doubt. However, I also am inclined to think that people can become homosexual due to environment. Is this at least plausable, or infact insulting to even suggest? the thing is, IT DOESNT FUCKING MATTER EITHER WAY.
creator: Herr Surth
date: 2010-03-19T09:31:11-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: I'll pre-empt the response, by quoting myself: Quote: Sexuality is innate.
creator: CarrierII
date: 2010-03-19T09:33:02-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: raven wrote on Fri, 19 March 2010 00:02 I find it absolutely appalling that the Churches have this much influence over governments. Religion has no place in the lawmaking and decision-making bodies of todays governments. I also see this as not a step backwards from acceptance of homosexuality, but a step towards homosexuality becoming illegal again. I'm gay. Does that mean I can't do things as well as someone who is straight? Does it mean that I can't raise a child with all the love and support it needs? Does it mean I can't be a role model for the child? Quite frankly, I could probably do a better job than a lot of straight couples could. Would this mean a child might grow up to be a homosexual because his/her parents are? Probably not. I am a firm believer that homosexuality is something that you are born with, it's NOT a choice. I didn't choose this lifestyle.. who would? It's hard to live as a homosexual. Although more people are open minded nowadays, its still seen as taboo in a lot of places. I could go on for pages on this subject so I'll stop there. Just giving my view on this :> mmhmm ^^ i think that not only is there little reason to think that a homosexual adult would be a worse parent than a heterosexual, there's one particular quality in which a homosexual parent is probably going to do better. take the chance that the child is homosexual. not at all a small chance, i'm not sure what the figures are. everyone ought to read reborn's posts earlier on, for a real story about real suffering homosexual people often put up with, but reborn's brother was very lucky in that he had understanding parents and brother. well, a lot of people are actively homophobic, and let's be honest, homosexuals are not going to give someone grief for being gay, are they? heterosexuals might well do that, even to their kids, especially if they're religious.
creator: Spoony
date: 2010-03-19T11:34:13-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: reborn Kimb wrote on Fri, 19 March 2010 09:58 Raven wrote on Fri, 19 March 2010 03:34 I do believe thats what I said. Does it matter? nope, just checking LOL, you have a book of who's gay and who isn't or something? Raven, as a gay man, do you believe that you're either born homosexual, or not, and that's the only possibility? Or is there any room to become homosexual due to environment? I believe you already answered that quite clearly already, but I just want to make sure. I have always believed that people can be born homosexual, and this probably makes up for most of all homosexuals, no doubt. However, I also am inclined to think that people can become homosexual due to environment. Is this at least plausable, or infact insulting to even suggest? @your fail quote, what i ment, is that i was just cheking if he ment it, or if it was an example
creator: Kimb
date: 2010-03-19T11:36:29-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Kimb wrote on Fri, 19 March 2010 06:36 @your fail quote, what i ment, is that i was just cheking if he ment it, or if it was an example I put a pokey out tongue at the end of the sentence to make light of the comment. I wasn't really trying to suggest you are busy catalogueing everyones sexual preference on renegade forums. It was just humour.
creator: reborn
date: 2010-03-19T14:08:48-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: reborn wrote on Fri, 19 March 2010 02:58 Kimb wrote on Fri, 19 March 2010 03:34 nope, just checking LOL, you have a book of who's gay and who isn't or something? Raven, as a gay man, do you believe that you're either born homosexual, or not, and that's the only possibility? Or is there any room to become homosexual due to environment? I believe you already answered that quite clearly already, but I just want to make sure. I have always believed that people can be born homosexual, and this probably makes up for most of all homosexuals, no doubt. However, I also am inclined to think that people can become homosexual due to environment. Is this at least plausable, or infact insulting to even suggest? I believe that you are born as either gay or straight (or both) and that is indeed the only possibility. Environment may influence a choice one makes, to try and experiment in different types of relationships, but at the end of the day you are born as you are born and nothing can change that. It's not insulting to suggest; solid scientific evidence or research hasn't been done in this area that I am aware of so its perfectly fine for people to hypothesize
creator: raven
date: 2010-03-19T19:17:09-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: I don't really buy into the "you're born homosexual" thing, but obviously they're not pretending either. I think of it being like discovering you have a new sexual fetish- you weren't necessarily "born" with it, but you're hardly faking it when you enjoy it. That being said, if anything, an environment makes you LESS likely to be homosexual- considering how overly homophobic society is, and all.
creator: GEORGE ZIMMER
date: 2010-03-19T19:26:16-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: I suppose to suggest that if a hetrosexual can become homosexual due to environment, then it would also suggest that a homosexual can become hetrosexual due to environment also. I don't think the latter is possible, so therefore the former must not be possible either. Then again, look at religion and how parents affect children in this regard. Islam anyone? I am using this example because it demonstrates so clearly the affect parents have on their children, please understand I am not trying to suggest that homosexuals go around trying to brainwash young children.
creator: reborn
date: 2010-03-19T20:43:15-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Don't mention Islam in a thread that Spoony is likely to read, let alone one he started... lol Yes, but sexuality cannot be "learned", enforced or changed.
creator: CarrierII
date: 2010-03-19T21:53:39-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Spoony wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 23:57 there's no need so long as you acknowledge that christianity does have a bad side. i expect that even if you aren't convinced of everything on my list, you're probably nodding at a couple of them. and if you're really teaching someone about the religion, it's only fair to include the bad bits as well as the good, the way the religion behaved when it really had power. But I still want to know why it's Christianity's fault for most of these - take a look at what happened, what these people did, and I'll see if there's anyplace in the Bible where they were commanded to do them. And I'm talking New Testament here, not the fools who think the Old Testament is still in power and sacrifices are still demanded and whatnot. Spoony wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 23:57 I thought you'd say that. I have no idea why people can't see what a really, really stupid sentence it is. Evidence simply means seen, something observable to support a claim. It's a completely nonsensical statement. I generally hear faith to mean the willingness to believe something without proof, and I've never, ever, ever heard why that would be a good thing. Especially since it's usually applied to propositions that, if they were true, would have enormous consequences - things like heaven and hell. So someone says: he'd make a good president because he's a person of faith. You're telling me he's willing to believe extremely important things without having a good reason to believe them? I can't imagine why anyone considers faith a good thing other than the fact they've been told it is. The religion isn't bound to pure blind faith. The problem is that our faith is founded on several factors you consider to be theories. (And honestly, theories probably is a good word for them because I can't provide explicit certain proof that, say, the Bible was written by the will of God.) Spoony wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 23:57 It's not that simple. Someone trustworthy tells me they wen…
creator: Altzan
date: 2010-03-20T02:37:53-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Altzan wrote on Fri, 19 March 2010 20:37 But I still want to know why it's Christianity's fault for most of these - take a look at what happened, what these people did, and I'll see if there's anyplace in the Bible where they were commanded to do them. And I'm talking New Testament here, not the fools who think the Old Testament is still in power and sacrifices are still demanded and whatnot. firstly, the old testament is no longer in effect, is it? well, jesus said that every jot and tittle of the old laws must be carried out. the closest i can think of to a repudiation of old testament law is he without sin cast the first stone, which essentially means the law's still there but you can't enforce it. secondly, i suppose i do have to justify the examples i cited, to explain how christianity played a credible role in causing such appalling behaviour. here's the list. - two thousand years of horrific anti-semitism and anti-gay people well, the worst anti-semitism throughout history has always come directly from christianity. in modern times, islam is catching up fast, but christianity still takes the gold. christianity's sole basis for anti-semitism is one line in one of the gospels which says that, at the trial, the jewish religious authorities actually called for the blood of christ to be on their heads and on the heads of all successive generations. any atheist will regard this as immoral bullshit. even if the whole story is true, it's a stupid thing to say. i could claim responsibility for a crime, whether i was guilty of it or not. what i can't do is say "and my children, who haven't been born yet, are guilty of it too, as will be their children, and their children..." and yet this one line is the root cause of unbelievable anti-semitism throughout the ages in every society where christianity has ever had power. killing jesus seems like quite a big crime for a christian, and according to the bible, all jews have that guilt, not just the ones who were involved in …
creator: Spoony
date: 2010-03-20T04:46:27-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Spoony wrote on Fri, 19 March 2010 22:46 firstly, the old testament is no longer in effect, is it? well, jesus said that every jot and tittle of the old laws must be carried out. No. Otherwise we'd still be doing sacrifices and basically operating under Moses' statutes. Not every single law in the OT is supposed to be disregarded, but certainly not all of it is still applicable. Spoony wrote on Fri, 19 March 2010 22:46 - two thousand years of horrific anti-semitism and anti-gay people well, the worst anti-semitism throughout history has always come directly from christianity. in modern times, islam is catching up fast, but christianity still takes the gold. christianity's sole basis for anti-semitism is one line in one of the gospels which says that, at the trial, the jewish religious authorities actually called for the blood of christ to be on their heads and on the heads of all successive generations. any atheist will regard this as immoral bullshit. even if the whole story is true, it's a stupid thing to say. i could claim responsibility for a crime, whether i was guilty of it or not. what i can't do is say "and my children, who haven't been born yet, are guilty of it too, as will be their children, and their children..." and yet this one line is the root cause of unbelievable anti-semitism throughout the ages in every society where christianity has ever had power. killing jesus seems like quite a big crime for a christian, and according to the bible, all jews have that guilt, not just the ones who were involved in the trial and crucifixion. They called for it to be on their heads, huh? So why does that make it the Bible's fault for relaying that information? I don't recall any passage demanding anti-semitism to be carried out - sounds more like man's stupid actions. Spoony wrote on Fri, 19 March 2010 22:46 - violently standing in the way of scientific progress well, if you take the christian view that you must believe the right things about god and jesus otherwi…
creator: Altzan
date: 2010-03-20T06:39:40-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Altzan wrote on Sat, 20 March 2010 00:39 Spoony wrote on Fri, 19 March 2010 22:46 firstly, the old testament is no longer in effect, is it? well, jesus said that every jot and tittle of the old laws must be carried out. No. Otherwise we'd still be doing sacrifices and basically operating under Moses' statutes. Not every single law in the OT is supposed to be disregarded, but certainly not all of it is still applicable. So you're deciding which ones are not applicable now? How do you decide that? And how do you reconcile that with Deuteronomy 13:1; Whatever I am now commanding you, you must keep and observe, adding nothing to it, taking nothing away. Quote: They called for it to be on their heads, huh? So why does that make it the Bible's fault for relaying that information? I don't recall any passage demanding anti-semitism to be carried out - sounds more like man's stupid actions. Because the Bible is absolutely full of cases where innocent people are punished for the crimes committed by others. If you don't object to these, saying that the bible is a source of morals, and if you're further told that all Jews are guilty of the murder of Jesus... Quote: I'm not against legit scientific progress, myself. So far, all the scientific theories that contradict the Bible have no more evidence than it does. lol... where's the evidence supporting every assertion made by the bible, please? Quote: As soon as you quote it. All you've said so far is that God destoryed SOME cities... not every single one they came across. eh? do you even know what i was talking about? anyone who's read the bible carefully will know which one i mean. along the lines of "if you hear of a town where there are people therein who worship a different god, you must put the entire town to the sword". this is not a case of "god destroying SOME cities"... it's a moral commandment in your holy book. and that's by no means the only example of genocide mentioned in the bible. the slaughter of the egyptian fir…
creator: Spoony
date: 2010-03-20T07:22:25-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Spoony wrote on Sat, 20 March 2010 01:22 Quote: but certainly not all of it is still applicable. So you're deciding which ones are not applicable now? How do you decide that? And how do you reconcile that with Deuteronomy 13:1; Whatever I am now commanding you, you must keep and observe, adding nothing to it, taking nothing away. There's also verses saying why the Old Testament was replaced by the New Testament. Several mention the "new covenant" God was planning on/did make with the people. Another mentioned something like, "If the old system was perfect, it wouldn't need to be replaced." It was an update, per se, since the way of life since then has changed. Spoony wrote on Sat, 20 March 2010 01:22 if you're further told that all Jews are guilty of the murder of Jesus... Where is that said? Spoony wrote on Sat, 20 March 2010 01:22 lol... where's the evidence supporting every assertion made by the bible, please? You thus inply that every scientific theory has supporting evidence, which of course is not true. Spoony wrote on Sat, 20 March 2010 01:22 eh? do you even know what i was talking about? anyone who's read the bible carefully will know which one i mean. along the lines of "if you hear of a town where there are people therein who worship a different god, you must put the entire town to the sword". "The primary reason was punishment for wrongdoing. The populations of the destroyed cities had long histories of grievous sins (Gen 15:16, Dt 25:17-19), which often included sacrificing their children to false gods (Dt 12:29-31). Their consciences should have told these people they were doing wrong. Had they listened and changed their ways, they would not have been destroyed. God has said that if any nation is about to be destroyed as punishment but repents, he will forgive them and not destroy them (Jer 18:7-8). In fact, this occurred in the city of Ninevah (Jonah 3:4-10). In the cities that were given to the Israelites as their inheritance, there was a secondary re…
creator: Altzan
date: 2010-03-21T21:00:01-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Altzan wrote on Sun, 21 March 2010 15:00 There's also verses saying why the Old Testament was replaced by the New Testament. Several mention the "new covenant" God was planning on/did make with the people. Another mentioned something like, "If the old system was perfect, it wouldn't need to be replaced." It was an update, per se, since the way of life since then has changed. pity not all of the barbarism of the old testament has been "replaced", then, eh? no condemnation of slavery, for example. another example: the story of let he without sin cast the first stone. jesus doesn't say that the old law has been removed, he just says that none of you guys here are capable of enforcing it since you're all sinful. well, that surely means that we can't enforce laws at all, doesn't it? we can't punish adultery? Quote: Spoony wrote on Sat, 20 March 2010 01:22 if you're further told that all Jews are guilty of the murder of Jesus... Where is that said? one of the gospels has the jews at the crucifixion calling for the responsibility of the murder of jesus to fall upon themselves and on all their descendants. any atheist can see that this is ridiculous - it is immoral to hold one person responsible for a crime committed by another - but the bible is absolutely full of this moral bankrupcy. god does it all the time, in the story. Quote: Spoony wrote on Sat, 20 March 2010 01:22 lol... where's the evidence supporting every assertion made by the bible, please? You thus inply that every scientific theory has supporting evidence, which of course is not true. i said no such thing. you said this: "So far, all the scientific theories that contradict the Bible have no more evidence than it does." that's plainly nonsense. the age of the earth, for example... there's an extraordinary amount of evidence supporting the old-earth theory (about four and a half billion years). the bible would put it more like 6-10 thousand, for which there is no evidence at all. another would be evolution. dar…
creator: Spoony
date: 2010-03-22T01:37:24-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: That's pretty awful. It's kind of worrying that those are the people that are caring for children. Honestly, I'm pretty terrified at the amount of the power that religious institutions hold all over the world. It is pretty ridiculous, even here..
creator: Tunaman
date: 2010-03-24T04:08:26-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Spoony wrote on Sun, 21 March 2010 19:37 pity not all of the barbarism of the old testament has been "replaced", then, eh? no condemnation of slavery, for example. another example: the story of let he without sin cast the first stone. jesus doesn't say that the old law has been removed, he just says that none of you guys here are capable of enforcing it since you're all sinful. well, that surely means that we can't enforce laws at all, doesn't it? we can't punish adultery? I have no idea what you mean. Spoony wrote on Sun, 21 March 2010 19:37 Quote: Spoony wrote on Sat, 20 March 2010 01:22 if you're further told that all Jews are guilty of the murder of Jesus... Where is that said? one of the gospels has the jews at the crucifixion calling for the responsibility of the murder of jesus to fall upon themselves and on all their descendants. OK, so how does that translate into a Biblical command to kill Jews? Spoony wrote on Sun, 21 March 2010 19:37 you said this: "So far, all the scientific theories that contradict the Bible have no more evidence than it does." that's plainly nonsense. the age of the earth, for example... there's an extraordinary amount of evidence supporting the old-earth theory (about four and a half billion years). the bible would put it more like 6-10 thousand, for which there is no evidence at all. I wouldn't call it 'extraordinary'. 'Speculative', more like. For example, what about Carbon-14 or helium present in rocks? If they've been around as long as billions of years, they would have disappeared. Yet they still remain. Spoony wrote on Sun, 21 March 2010 19:37 another would be evolution. darwin didn't just make it up, he studied the evidence and created his theories accordingly. we're finding new fossils all the time. where's the evidence supporting the account given in genesis? What about the Second Law of Thermodynamics, or Entropy? Spoony wrote on Sun, 21 March 2010 19:37 perhaps you didn't read my statement very carefully. i was not referri…
creator: Altzan
date: 2010-03-24T04:25:23-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Altzan wrote on Tue, 23 March 2010 22:25 Spoony wrote on Sun, 21 March 2010 19:37 pity not all of the barbarism of the old testament has been "replaced", then, eh? no condemnation of slavery, for example. another example: the story of let he without sin cast the first stone. jesus doesn't say that the old law has been removed, he just says that none of you guys here are capable of enforcing it since you're all sinful. well, that surely means that we can't enforce laws at all, doesn't it? we can't punish adultery? I have no idea what you mean. it's actually very straightforward. the baying religious mob bring a woman who they've caught committing adultery before jesus, and say we need to stone her to death. jesus says: let he without sin cast the first stone. everyone there is sinful (indeed christianity says we're all sinful), so nobody can stone her, and she gets away with it. so that means we can't have and enforce any laws at all, because the only people allowed to punish offenders would have to be entirely sinless, and none of us are, are we? Quote: Spoony wrote on Sun, 21 March 2010 19:37 Quote: Spoony wrote on Sat, 20 March 2010 01:22 if you're further told that all Jews are guilty of the murder of Jesus... Where is that said? one of the gospels has the jews at the crucifixion calling for the responsibility of the murder of jesus to fall upon themselves and on all their descendants. OK, so how does that translate into a Biblical command to kill Jews? it's not exactly much of a jump to get from "all jews are responsible of the murder of our god" to actually doing something nasty to jews, is it? but like i said, you probably aren't taught the bad parts of christianity, how dangerous it used to be to be jewish around easter time. Quote: Spoony wrote on Sun, 21 March 2010 19:37 you said this: "So far, all the scientific theories that contradict the Bible have no more evidence than it does." that's plainly nonsense. the age of the earth, for example... there's an e…
creator: Spoony
date: 2010-03-24T10:14:48-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Spoony wrote on Wed, 24 March 2010 10:14 what a twat.
creator: jnz
date: 2010-03-24T12:26:40-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics essentially states: A system will always lose energy to the envrioment (typically as light, heat or sound) because otherwise no energy has changed from one form (such as gravitational potential energy or chemical potential energy) into another, such as light and therefore no work can be done. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2nd_law_of_thermodynamics - explains it better. So, all I have to say is... How on Earth does that back up Genesis?
creator: CarrierII
date: 2010-03-24T20:40:20-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Spoony wrote on Wed, 24 March 2010 04:14 it's actually very straightforward. the baying religious mob bring a woman who they've caught committing adultery before jesus, and say we need to stone her to death. jesus says: let he without sin cast the first stone. everyone there is sinful (indeed christianity says we're all sinful), so nobody can stone her, and she gets away with it. so that means we can't have and enforce any laws at all, because the only people allowed to punish offenders would have to be entirely sinless, and none of us are, are we? "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." "This is another counterfeiting of the Scriptures many have tried to use to shame us for what we do in his name. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" is not speaking to judging. Let me explain. Using the KJV this time, in John 8:1 - 11 scribes and Pharisees had caught a woman in the act of adultery (the woman commonly referred to as the prostitute) and told Jesus who was teaching in the temple that the Mosaic Law required she be stoned to death. Trying to make an opportunity of this to trick Jesus that they might accuse Him, they, with stones in hand, asked Jesus what He says about the Law. After Jesus tried to ignore their repeated questioning, He told them "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." One by one each man dropped his stone and walked away. Jesus was not arguing with the judgment. Nor was Jesus arguing the law nor the woman's guilt. Jesus was arguing with our right to execute the woman. Once all the men had dropped their stones Jesus confronted the woman and asked her if any of the men were still there to condemn her. When she answered "No man, Lord", Jesus told her that neither did He - He forgave her of her sin. He did not excuse the sin of adultery/prostitution, he forgave her of it. All behavior and thought that is sinful before forgiveness is still sinful after forgiveness. Not only was Jesus not afraid to call a s…
creator: Altzan
date: 2010-03-26T16:08:52-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Altzan wrote on Fri, 26 March 2010 10:08 "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." "This is another counterfeiting of the Scriptures many have tried to use to shame us for what we do in his name. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" is not speaking to judging. Let me explain. Using the KJV this time, in John 8:1 - 11 scribes and Pharisees had caught a woman in the act of adultery (the woman commonly referred to as the prostitute) and told Jesus who was teaching in the temple that the Mosaic Law required she be stoned to death. Trying to make an opportunity of this to trick Jesus that they might accuse Him, they, with stones in hand, asked Jesus what He says about the Law. After Jesus tried to ignore their repeated questioning, He told them "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." One by one each man dropped his stone and walked away. Jesus was not arguing with the judgment. Nor was Jesus arguing the law nor the woman's guilt. Jesus was arguing with our right to execute the woman. Once all the men had dropped their stones Jesus confronted the woman and asked her if any of the men were still there to condemn her. When she answered "No man, Lord", Jesus told her that neither did He - He forgave her of her sin. He did not excuse the sin of adultery/prostitution, he forgave her of it. All behavior and thought that is sinful before forgiveness is still sinful after forgiveness. Not only was Jesus not afraid to call a sin a sin, He was not afraid to call a sinner a sinner. He even reminded her of the sin of adultery/prostitution by telling her "Go and sin no more." The point? Jesus did not argue the act of judging the chosen behavior of the adulteress/prostitute." i'm not seeing how this refutes my point? the woman gets away with it because sinful people are supposedly not allowed to punish offenders. we're told we're all sinful, so what's the point the law being there if it's unenforcable? Quote: Spoony wrote on Wed, 24 Ma…
creator: Spoony
date: 2010-03-26T17:53:05-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: HoF FTW! I feel the heat from this thread.
creator: The Party
date: 2010-03-26T17:55:50-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Spoony, why does everyone one of your topics have to do with...someone cheating....flame post about someone else....or religious/homo type subjects no disrespect it just seems like...nvm im stop now
creator: _SSnipe_
date: 2010-03-26T20:45:07-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: maybe when religion stops trying to take over the world there won't be anything to complain about
creator: Spoony
date: 2010-03-26T23:25:25-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: quick audio summary from pat of everything i've been saying about the catholic church http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKg4HLsu5gE&feature=sub admittedly i'd have mentioned its persecution of homosexuality too but meh
creator: Spoony
date: 2010-03-27T17:13:12-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Spoony wrote on Sat, 27 March 2010 11:13 quick audio summary from pat of everything i've been saying about the catholic church http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKg4HLsu5gE&feature=sub admittedly i'd have mentioned its persecution of homosexuality too but meh I thought you were the old man in the vid for a moment.
creator: snpr1101
date: 2010-03-28T09:46:46-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Spoony wrote on Fri, 26 March 2010 11:53 i'm not seeing how this refutes my point? the woman gets away with it because sinful people are supposedly not allowed to punish offenders. we're told we're all sinful, so what's the point the law being there if it's unenforcable? Perhaps I wasn't trying to refute it? Spoony wrote on Fri, 26 March 2010 11:53 and yet throughout the bible we have innumerable cases of god eagerly punishing or threatening to punish innocents for the crimes of others. you've even defended that bullshit yourself. That doesn't change the fact that the Bible doesn't command us to persecute Jews. Spoony wrote on Fri, 26 March 2010 11:53 firstly, i said: where's the evidence supporting the account given in genesis? you said the second law of thermodynamics/entropy. When I said those two examples, I was NOT giving them as evidence to Genesis, I was bringing it up against evolution, as I already said. Spoony wrote on Fri, 26 March 2010 11:53 secondly, i don't give a shit whether you or anyone else is convinced by the theory of evolution or not, and i'm not aware of anyone saying "you MUST believe this or you'll suffer horrific punishments for eternity". but still, i'm not sure exactly why you think the second law of thermodynamics is supposed to be a counter-argument to the theory of evolution? So you want me to provide evidence and attempt to vindicate Genesis, but you don't think I should make any move against evolution? One-sided, no? Spoony wrote on Fri, 26 March 2010 11:53 k, then here's the one i was talking about we are. Deuteronomy 13:12-16 If thou shalt hear [say] in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying, [Certain] men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, [if it be] truth, [and] the thing certain, [t…
creator: Altzan
date: 2010-03-29T01:16:50-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Altzan wrote on Sun, 28 March 2010 19:16 Perhaps I wasn't trying to refute it? *shrug* then i guess my earlier statement about the overall stupidity of the story can be allowed to stand Quote: Spoony wrote on Fri, 26 March 2010 11:53 and yet throughout the bible we have innumerable cases of god eagerly punishing or threatening to punish innocents for the crimes of others. you've even defended that bullshit yourself. That doesn't change the fact that the Bible doesn't command us to persecute Jews. well, it would be nice if all the christian authorities had said this for the last two thousand years, instead of specifically encouraging the persecution of jews, culminating in the holocaust. and if you're going to take the line that statements of "faith" don't have to be proven, then this is only a problem for your side. Quote: When I said those two examples, I was NOT giving them as evidence to Genesis, I was bringing it up against evolution, as I already said. So you want me to provide evidence and attempt to vindicate Genesis, but you don't think I should make any move against evolution? One-sided, no? firstly, i never said you shouldn't try to refute the theory of evolution. no real scientist would say that, and i'm not even a scientist. evolution is a scientific theory, and since it's scientific it's open to challenges. if the best you can do is mentioning the second law of thermodynamics, then ok. i can't imagine why that's supposed to be a rebuttal to the theory of evolution, so perhaps you can explain that for us. secondly, yes i do want you to prove the account as reported in genesis. thirdly, i'll just repeat my earlier assertion that i don't really care whether you find the theory of evolution convincing or not, and if i ever came across anybody saying that if you don't believe their scientific theory then their boss will inflict horrific punishment upon you for your disbelief! then i'd be the first to say what a deranged and immoral pronouncement that would b…
creator: Spoony
date: 2010-03-29T08:41:35-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Science>Religion Proof>Belief Seeing>Wondering Knowing>Assuming Not even going to read the whole topic, but that is my general opinion. I'd rather have actual proof, without having to be convinced and dragged into, rather than assumptions and, what appear to me - are false hopes. I'm not one to judge anyone by their religion, but i do feel as if they may not be aware of some of the actual facts out there....like the fact that there has been, what, hundreds of different religions before us, all believing 100% that THEIR religion, and their gods were what was real. Then every other religion comes and says they are wrong, and that the religion they believe in is right....when there is yet to be facts about any of this. Seems like it's more culture and tradition to believe in one defined religion now-a-days anyway....or just the fear that when you die, you will not be taken care of, or go to hell, if you do not believe. I'd rather not get my hopes about something that appears to me as proven to be false more than true to this point. Tradition, culture, and fear aren't really something i would be willing to trust my life to.....even science would be better.
creator: HaTe
date: 2010-03-30T01:46:33-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: HaTe wrote on Mon, 29 March 2010 19:46 Science>Religion Proof>Belief Seeing>Wondering Knowing>Assuming Not even going to read the whole topic, but that is my general opinion. I'd rather have actual proof, without having to be convinced and dragged into, rather than assumptions and, what appear to me - are false hopes. I'm not one to judge anyone by their religion, but i do feel as if they may not be aware of some of the actual facts out there....like the fact that there has been, what, hundreds of different religions before us, all believing 100% that THEIR religion, and their gods were what was real. Then every other religion comes and says they are wrong, and that the religion they believe in is right....when there is yet to be facts about any of this. Seems like it's more culture and tradition to believe in one defined religion now-a-days anyway....or just the fear that when you die, you will not be taken care of, or go to hell, if you do not believe. I'd rather not get my hopes about something that appears to me as proven to be false more than true to this point. Tradition, culture, and fear aren't really something i would be willing to trust my life to.....even science would be better. Yea but what does science offer you after you die - a nice little story about the decomposition of your body. What does religion (generally) offer? - A nice little story about living in an unimaginable paradise if you're a good little boy or girl for eternity. Not hard to see why so many people would rather believe in religion, as science promises nothing except knowledge for present use. After you die, what good is it to you? I know what i'd want after I died, yet reality drags the wishful mind back into the real world; and the facts are daunting.
creator: snpr1101
date: 2010-03-30T06:47:29-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: snpr1101 wrote on Tue, 30 March 2010 00:47 HaTe wrote on Mon, 29 March 2010 19:46 Science>Religion Proof>Belief Seeing>Wondering Knowing>Assuming Not even going to read the whole topic, but that is my general opinion. I'd rather have actual proof, without having to be convinced and dragged into, rather than assumptions and, what appear to me - are false hopes. I'm not one to judge anyone by their religion, but i do feel as if they may not be aware of some of the actual facts out there....like the fact that there has been, what, hundreds of different religions before us, all believing 100% that THEIR religion, and their gods were what was real. Then every other religion comes and says they are wrong, and that the religion they believe in is right....when there is yet to be facts about any of this. Seems like it's more culture and tradition to believe in one defined religion now-a-days anyway....or just the fear that when you die, you will not be taken care of, or go to hell, if you do not believe. I'd rather not get my hopes about something that appears to me as proven to be false more than true to this point. Tradition, culture, and fear aren't really something i would be willing to trust my life to.....even science would be better. Yea but what does science offer you after you die - a nice little story about the decomposition of your body. What does religion (generally) offer? - A nice little story about living in an unimaginable paradise if you're a good little boy or girl for eternity. Not hard to see why so many people would rather believe in religion, as science promises nothing except knowledge for present use. After you die, what good is it to you? I know what i'd want after I died, yet reality drags the wishful mind back into the real world; and the facts are daunting. let's not understate of the benefits of science. presumably neither you nor anyone close to you has ever had a potentially life-threatening illness, for example. what use is religion in the fi…
creator: Spoony
date: 2010-03-30T14:34:09-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: The christian argument is so weak that only "misinformed" people who fell prey to its "intellectual dishonesty" would even think of upholding and defending the religion. And of course, the majority of christians today are christians because they were raised in a christian home and therefore indoctrinated and thereby lacking the "intellectual bargaining power" to deal with their brainwashing. I want to say something about being "misinformed" and "intellectual dishonesty" and the "intellectual bargaining power". These are the roots of the religious question imo. btw, I am basically talking about myself and my experience here: The first one of being misinformed starts at birth. A christian child is going to be told that Adam was the first human being and that everything began with a "Let there be light" command. For example, the child is not going to told that early humans in those ancient tribal groups first hunted, then foraged, then later grew their own crops in their search for food. The child is not going to be told about exciting things such as continental drift or the science behind earthquakes ("its god's judgment" I heard). If you were in a religious family and you were told this, count yourself very lucky. So moving on, a whole false history of our origin is impressed upon the child while real history and science is ignored. I want to stress here that COMMONSENSE is ignored and dogma is upheld. But children are not easily fooled; fresh off the human production line, they have sharp senses, fresh memory, and a keen sense of curiosity. They begin to ask questions that makes the adults around them look like idiots. For example, in my case when I was kid, I always wondered about the concept of the soul. This was an actual conversation I remember very clearly sometime in the early 90's when I was around 8 years old. Marc: what is the soul grandma? Grandma: its a spirit inside us (how the fuck did she know?) Marc: does everyrone have them? Grandma: yes, dear Marc: …
creator: Starbuzzz
date: 2010-03-30T20:20:04-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Nobody actually knows what happens when we die Spoony....so nobody actually knows what is "good for us" if we die. It may very well be that believing in god your entire life is the key to a happy afterlife, but i very highly doubt it. Like i said, i'm not worried about what will happen when i die, i'll focus on life for now, and take my chances then. I'm not going to live like someone who may or may not exist tells me to live. Quote: My mind is my own property...please stay off it. Exactly. No one wants to have someone else influence their life, or drive their life from birth, yet that is basically what the stories of a christian god are doing...
creator: HaTe
date: 2010-03-30T22:02:26-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Spoony wrote on Mon, 29 March 2010 02:41 well, it would be nice if all the christian authorities had said this for the last two thousand years, instead of specifically encouraging the persecution of jews, culminating in the holocaust. Agreed. Spoony wrote on Mon, 29 March 2010 02:41 Quote: "Here the case is put of a city revolting from its allegiance to the God of Israel, and serving other gods. I. The crime is supposed to be committed oh dear. already i've got to stop you. i don't accept that a crime has been committed here. Why should I care? God created all, including the laws. He is the lawmaker. So if he says it's a crime, it is. Spoony wrote on Mon, 29 March 2010 02:41 Quote: The crime is supposed to be committed, 1. By one of the cities of Israel, that lay within the jurisdiction of their courts. Ah. I think I see what he's getting at here; it only applies to the Israelites, does it? In that case, then the verse would be totally irrelevant in a modern context. Yeah. Spoony wrote on Mon, 29 March 2010 02:41 That would certainly be no problem for me; it would only be a problem for anybody who dared to say that God gave them this planet, their property etc. But quite a lot of Christians do say that, don't they? ...What? Spoony wrote on Mon, 29 March 2010 02:41 Quote: The city that is here supposed to have become idolatrous is one that formerly worshipped the true God, but had now withdrawn to other gods, which intimates how great the crime is ...no, no it doesn't. Although, "other gods"... do you think there are (or were) any other gods? ...yes, yes it does. And no, I don't believe there were other gods, although those idolators apparently did. Spoony wrote on Mon, 29 March 2010 02:41 He really has lost me here. Why would serving a different god mean someone has no desire to be bound by laws, or any "manner of virtue"? They're just picking a different set, aren't they? Why would anyone cease serving a God, knowing they would incur his wrath, if they were only ch…
creator: Altzan
date: 2010-03-31T04:43:19-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Spoony wrote on Tue, 30 March 2010 08:34 snpr1101 wrote on Tue, 30 March 2010 00:47 HaTe wrote on Mon, 29 March 2010 19:46 Science>Religion Proof>Belief Seeing>Wondering Knowing>Assuming Not even going to read the whole topic, but that is my general opinion. I'd rather have actual proof, without having to be convinced and dragged into, rather than assumptions and, what appear to me - are false hopes. I'm not one to judge anyone by their religion, but i do feel as if they may not be aware of some of the actual facts out there....like the fact that there has been, what, hundreds of different religions before us, all believing 100% that THEIR religion, and their gods were what was real. Then every other religion comes and says they are wrong, and that the religion they believe in is right....when there is yet to be facts about any of this. Seems like it's more culture and tradition to believe in one defined religion now-a-days anyway....or just the fear that when you die, you will not be taken care of, or go to hell, if you do not believe. I'd rather not get my hopes about something that appears to me as proven to be false more than true to this point. Tradition, culture, and fear aren't really something i would be willing to trust my life to.....even science would be better. Yea but what does science offer you after you die - a nice little story about the decomposition of your body. What does religion (generally) offer? - A nice little story about living in an unimaginable paradise if you're a good little boy or girl for eternity. Not hard to see why so many people would rather believe in religion, as science promises nothing except knowledge for present use. After you die, what good is it to you? I know what i'd want after I died, yet reality drags the wishful mind back into the real world; and the facts are daunting. let's not understate of the benefits of science. presumably neither you nor anyone close to you has ever had a potentially life-threatening illness, fo…
creator: snpr1101
date: 2010-03-31T07:41:02-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: nothing much to quarrel with in starbuzz's posts. Quote: Nobody actually knows what happens when we die Spoony....so nobody actually knows what is "good for us" if we die. It may very well be that believing in god your entire life is the key to a happy afterlife, but i very highly doubt it. Like i said, i'm not worried about what will happen when i die, i'll focus on life for now, and take my chances then. I'm not going to live like someone who may or may not exist tells me to live. I don't claim to know for certain what happens to us after we die; just said it looks to me like that's the end for us in any conscious sense, and for all the people who've asserted otherwise they've never made a convincing case of it. it's like god, really. i don't say there definitely isn't one; i just say nobody's ever made a convincing case that there is. Quote: Spoony wrote on Mon, 29 March 2010 02:41 Quote: "Here the case is put of a city revolting from its allegiance to the God of Israel, and serving other gods. I. The crime is supposed to be committed oh dear. already i've got to stop you. i don't accept that a crime has been committed here. Why should I care? God created all, including the laws. He is the lawmaker. So if he says it's a crime, it is. Let's call this concept what it is; a complete and unchallengeable dictatorship. The argument from authority doesn't fly with me, especially when nobody's even managed to demonstrate that there is any authority at all in this case. But if you're going to take the "god says it, and that's all i need to know" line, then I have a hypothetical question for you. Let's say it was somehow proven that the Islamic revelation was correct. Mohammed claimed to be inspired by the same god you believe in. I expect you don't believe that any more than I do, but let's suppose it was conclusively proven. Would you then abide by the Islamic code of behaviour? Some of them aren't so pretty; there are hundreds of verses in the Islamic scriptures speakin…
creator: Spoony
date: 2010-03-31T08:13:33-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: snpr1101 wrote on Wed, 31 March 2010 01:41 I don't know to what degree you're challenging what I said, but I wasn't intending to understate the benefits of science, just made a short and sweet message. Yea of course stating - science provides knowledge for the present isn't encompassing all that is science and the benefits it provides. As for the after you die part, I wasn't saying you needed anything after you die, it was simply a comparison between what science "offers" you after death, and what religion "offers" you. sure. science tries to find out what actually happens to you after death and if it finds out for sure, will tell you based on what the evidence shows. religion simply tells you what it wants to tell you. Quote: Again I wasn't arguing for either side nor did I say anyone had given any convincing reasons. The clear point I was making was that the potential future after death that religion offers is certainly brighter than the one science does. (I use the term religion loosely and I know there are differences between each) i wouldn't say that it's brighter. i don't find it comforting to be told that this life is basically a qualifying period before the afterlife, and i haven't yet heard of a religion whose rules i like. Quote: Finally, i can't see how you can come to the conclusion that I personally would prefer a comforting lie over truth. I simply made a general observation as to why I thought people believed in the promises made to you by religion after death. ok, but it only boils down to wish-thinking in the end, doesn't it? and if i assumed that about you, then it was probably thanks to the "i know what I'd rather want" Quote: And by the way, my granddad had toes and feet amputated. He eventually died of a stroke. My Grandmother suffers from servere parkinsons' disease at present. I myself was very sick as a child, and have come close to death many times. Not trying to turn this into a self pity post or a "who knows more family members who've died…
creator: Spoony
date: 2010-03-31T08:24:58-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Ah ok, I think he may have been called spoony by some as a nickname at some point. Yea that was my bad with the " i know what I'd prefer statement" - sometimes I don't read my own shit properly. It was a loose statement, reinforcing the "brightness" (Yea i know you don't think it's bright. but I couldn't be fucked coming up with another adjective describing the vast contrast between heaven and a rotting corpse in the ground that you'd agree with) or better looking potential future. and to tell you the truth, i can't really say whether I agree with you or not, because those massive quote walls just don't appeal to my eyes. Just browsed over this now and then, and read HaTes statement and found it interesting.
creator: snpr1101
date: 2010-03-31T09:46:41-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: snpr1101 wrote on Wed, 31 March 2010 03:46 Ah ok, I think he may have been called spoony by some as a nickname at some point. That's quite likely to have happened at some point. Quote: Yea that was my bad with the " i know what I'd prefer statement" - sometimes I don't read my own shit properly. It was a loose statement, reinforcing the "brightness" (Yea i know you don't think it's bright. but I couldn't be fucked coming up with another adjective describing the vast contrast between heaven and a rotting corpse in the ground that you'd agree with) or better looking potential future. no problem, but if the best argument is that heaven/hell is supposedly more comforting than the likelihood of death being final, regardless of whether it's true or not, if we're only talking about wish-thinking and not about truth, then let me respond by saying what *I* find comforting. for example, i've never been told by a religious person, never, that i will go to heaven. i've been told many times that i will go to hell. in every single one of these cases, the justification the person used was not "you deserve this because you did such-and-such evil action". in every case, it was "you deserve this because of what you believe or don't believe". well, like i said earlier and like starbuzz illustrated with an account of his own life, i could pretend i believed all this christianity crap. really, i could. i could also pretend i was morally okay with it. what i can't do is just flick a switch inside my mind and actually believe it, or make my moral objections to it go away. so i'm fucked, if it's true. please don't tell me i'm supposed to find this comforting.. the only comforting thing about this is precisely the fact there is no reason to think it's true. i'm a grown man and i can handle being spoken to in this manner, and i don't want anyone telling the religious person that they shouldn't say this to me if it's what they think, but it's plain evil to talk to children this way. you say t…
creator: Spoony
date: 2010-03-31T23:40:00-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: snpr1101 wrote on Wed, 31 March 2010 03:46 Just browsed over this now and then, and read HaTes statement and found it interesting. What do you mean by "interesting?" As in you have never heard the theory/belief before, or as in you disagree, or only agree with parts of it? Just curious, because where i live, this is actually a more common belief than believing in a god, or being faithful to religion at all really. Even though everyone has their own personal opinion, and believes something very much their own, this is like a common ground for many peoples beliefs, believe it or not. It isn't highly publicized or anything, because, well, the law used to prohibit it in many places, and still does in many places (to teach the theory of evolution, that is).
creator: HaTe
date: 2010-04-01T00:47:46-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Spoony wrote on Thu, 01 April 2010 01:40 snpr1101 wrote on Wed, 31 March 2010 03:46 Ah ok, I think he may have been called spoony by some as a nickname at some point. That's quite likely to have happened at some point. Quote: Yea that was my bad with the " i know what I'd prefer statement" - sometimes I don't read my own shit properly. It was a loose statement, reinforcing the "brightness" (Yea i know you don't think it's bright. but I couldn't be fucked coming up with another adjective describing the vast contrast between heaven and a rotting corpse in the ground that you'd agree with) or better looking potential future. no problem, but if the best argument is that heaven/hell is supposedly more comforting than the likelihood of death being final, regardless of whether it's true or not, if we're only talking about wish-thinking and not about truth, then let me respond by saying what *I* find comforting. for example, i've never been told by a religious person, never, that i will go to heaven. i've been told many times that i will go to hell. in every single one of these cases, the justification the person used was not "you deserve this because you did such-and-such evil action". in every case, it was "you deserve this because of what you believe or don't believe". well, like i said earlier and like starbuzz illustrated with an account of his own life, i could pretend i believed all this christianity crap. really, i could. i could also pretend i was morally okay with it. what i can't do is just flick a switch inside my mind and actually believe it, or make my moral objections to it go away. so i'm fucked, if it's true. please don't tell me i'm supposed to find this comforting.. the only comforting thing about this is precisely the fact there is no reason to think it's true. i'm a grown man and i can handle being spoken to in this manner, and i don't want anyone telling the religious person that they shouldn't say this to me if it's what they think, but it's plain evi…
creator: snpr1101
date: 2010-04-01T07:03:52-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: are you saying that you would not need to meet any particular criteria to qualify for the paradise? i.e. done good stuff, avoided doing bad stuff, happened to find certain myths convincing etc i also think i ought to ask what the paradise is actually like...
creator: Spoony
date: 2010-04-01T08:46:00-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: this is stupid.
creator: Herr Surth
date: 2010-04-01T08:50:15-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Ziggy Sobotka wrote on Thu, 01 April 2010 02:50 this is stupid. If only there was a way to not read it all. Hm, that would be damn useful.
creator: HaTe
date: 2010-04-02T02:32:23-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Spoony wrote on Wed, 31 March 2010 02:13 Let's call this concept what it is; a complete and unchallengeable dictatorship. Dictatorship - a form of government where the single leader has sovreignity. So yeah, it's a dictatorship. Too bad that word comes with a negative connotation. Spoony wrote on Wed, 31 March 2010 02:13 The argument from authority doesn't fly with me, especially when nobody's even managed to demonstrate that there is any authority at all in this case. Nobody's managed to prove God exists. We all know that, yet you keep stating it repeatedly... Why? Spoony wrote on Wed, 31 March 2010 02:13 But if you're going to take the "god says it, and that's all i need to know" line, then I have a hypothetical question for you. Let's say it was somehow proven that the Islamic revelation was correct. Mohammed claimed to be inspired by the same god you believe in. I expect you don't believe that any more than I do, but let's suppose it was conclusively proven. Would you then abide by the Islamic code of behaviour? Some of them aren't so pretty; there are hundreds of verses in the Islamic scriptures speaking of Allah's (same god, remember) fury and contempt towards non-believers, and quite a few instructions to fight non-Muslims and either convert them to Islam, subjugate them under Islamic rule, or kill them. So if it turned out that Mohammed really was inspired by god, you'd grab a sword and have at it, would you? If it was proven that Islam's beliefs were fact, then yes, I would obey them. Is that any worse than your statement that you'd challenge an almighty God, if you knew for fact he existed, because you don't like his authority? (In your case, I notice, you mainly rally against Old Testament authority.) Spoony wrote on Wed, 31 March 2010 02:13 well, it doesn't really seem like we can just say that only applies to the israelites. what's the justification? "god's obviously talking to the israelites because they're the people he gave this land to". well, a lot…
creator: Altzan
date: 2010-04-02T05:18:05-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Altzan wrote on Thu, 01 April 2010 23:18 Dictatorship - a form of government where the single leader has sovreignity. So yeah, it's a dictatorship. Too bad that word comes with a negative connotation. a negative meaning, not a negative connotation. dictatorship sucks by definition. and yet i don't know of any human dictatorship that managed to become as all-encompassing, unchallengeable and inescapable as the depiction in christianity. Quote: Spoony wrote on Wed, 31 March 2010 02:13 The argument from authority doesn't fly with me, especially when nobody's even managed to demonstrate that there is any authority at all in this case. Nobody's managed to prove God exists. We all know that, yet you keep stating it repeatedly... Why? because until you've gotten past that square one, most of your assertions are at best a waste of time. Quote: If it was proven that Islam's beliefs were fact, then yes, I would obey them. so in a nutshell, the only reason you're not acting in the bloodthirsty, merciless way islam commands its followers to act is because you don't think it really came from God... there's no moral compunction holding you back, and there wouldn't be if it turned out you were wrong? Quote: Is that any worse than your statement that you'd challenge an almighty God, if you knew for fact he existed, because you don't like his authority? yes, it is. i'm objecting to christianity because -a- i don't believe any of it and -b- i don't want a dictatorship and -c- i think his rules are absolutely shit. your only objection to following islam's rules is you don't believe it. well, it's good you've laid out for us what at least two people reading this thread had already guessed... i.e. that you have no morals. Quote: (In your case, I notice, you mainly rally against Old Testament authority.) not really, the most evil thing in the bible is probably the doctrine of hell. Quote: Spoony wrote on Wed, 31 March 2010 02:13 well, it doesn't really seem like we can just say that only…
creator: Spoony
date: 2010-04-02T12:45:14-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: move along
creator: Herr Surth
date: 2010-04-02T13:59:24-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: I'll see your ducks and raise you acrocoduck. That one system of belief, no matter how popular, should be able to impose its will on the rest of society... anybody ever heard the phrase "tyranny of the majority?" To say that Christianity is the one true faith simply because it's been a dominant force in the world since Constantine is as silly a notion as the poor little nonexistent critter I just linked you to. Religions rise and fall. So do nations. The only thing that matters is that we treat other human beings like the human beings that they are. There aren't any cases of a child flipping their shit and committing heinous crimes just because they were raised by two mommies or two daddies or six daddies and three mommies or any other combination of consenting adults... so what business does any construct so transient as a church have saying that's not to be permitted? We'd do well to remember that human beings in one form or another have been kicking around on this dirtball for hundreds of thousands of years. None of the major religions in the world today have been around for even the tiniest fraction of our collective history as a species. There's nothing wrong with believing in a higher power, if it helps you put the world in context and treat others with respect and decency, but to use it as justification to deny anything to anyone is utter and complete arrogance.
creator: NukeIt15
date: 2010-04-03T02:53:24-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: I'll see your crocoduck and raise you the saddest dog in the world. His sadness shall make you realise how stupid and irrelevant this discussion is. surely anyone with half a brain will agree with homophobia being, you know, bad?
creator: Herr Surth
date: 2010-04-03T09:48:38-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Less image macros please, the last one is making me cry. :'(
creator: CarrierII
date: 2010-04-03T10:02:34-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: k, this one is happier. ps: my derailing is just as pointless as spoonys posts and that guy who opposes him, so I will continue if thats okay with you?
creator: Herr Surth
date: 2010-04-03T10:38:11-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Unfortunately it isn't, sorry. (It's the image macros that are doing it, NukeIt15 has the right idea...)
creator: CarrierII
date: 2010-04-03T11:30:34-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: but... but... just look at that cat and that dog! they're more human than anyone in this fictional tube room! :[
creator: Herr Surth
date: 2010-04-03T11:37:33-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Ziggy Sobotka wrote on Sat, 03 April 2010 05:37 but... but... just look at that cat and that dog! they're more human than anyone in this fictional tube room! :[ i have some news for you: you're not cool you should be sad now
creator: snpr1101
date: 2010-04-03T13:56:03-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: snpr1101 wrote on Sat, 03 April 2010 07:56 Ziggy Sobotka wrote on Sat, 03 April 2010 05:37 but... but... just look at that cat and that dog! they're more human than anyone in this fictional tube room! :[ i have some news for you: you're not cool you should be sad now snpr1101 wrote on Tue, 30 March 2010 01:16 lol, chillax mate. i love being evaluated based on what i write on the internet. and a nice day to you.
creator: Herr Surth
date: 2010-04-03T14:12:34-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: Someone doesn't get out much.
creator: HaTe
date: 2010-04-03T16:16:56-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: ah, do I dare derail the thread further; nah. something on topic - I don't think anybody is going to prove anyone wrong here (Altzan vs Spoony). It's the same old contest. By the looks of it, the only way the original argument about Catholic adoption agencies and homo's will be won will be to prove or disprove God himself.
creator: snpr1101
date: 2010-04-04T00:43:06-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: um, no. a religion is yet again saying they shouldn't have to follow the law. it would take a lot more than just proving there was a god to justify that position. and to refute it, we don't have to prove there isn't a god. as for neither altzan nor myself proving each other wrong, maybe read the entirety of the thread; it would also be worth reading the first debate (him on one side, basically me and dover on the other). for example, on this page he's basically said that two adult guys who love each other and want to have a consenting relationship is every bit as bad as a man who rapes a woman. do you have a comment to make about that? i honestly felt like slapping him twice at that point.
creator: Spoony
date: 2010-04-04T02:07:49-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: yea it might help if I read it all I guess the general gist I got of it was wrong. ah well, carry on. edit: Yea I can comment on that, it might be wrong but here it is anyway. The disagreement in this case lies within Altzans' belief in God and the Bible; and your apparent lack of belief (I think?). I'd presume it's common knowledge that the bible speaks out against homosexuality, to put it lightly; and obviously against rape too. Now I'm not really sure as to how Altzan came to the conclusion that one is worse than the other (maybe there's some sort of point system in the bible that i missed aka 10 points for rape, yay I win!), but I think in his view, they are both sins. Thus, anything that goes against the teachings, or laws of the bible is either a sin; or something that may impede on the apparent goal of living by the bible, acknowledging Jesus as the Lord and Savior business and getting into heaven. - (I presume that's the gist of it). But on the other hand, your apparent lack of belief in the Bible negates the homosexuality part. Therefore, you see rape as wrong (which it is), and two homosexual men who "love" eachother (prove that exists while your at it) as normal (debatable - disprove God and the Bible and you'll win it) So in conclusion, you can't debate or tell someone that they're wrong about something like that without looking at the root of it. He believes in God, you don't. He believes in the Bible, you don't. The reason Altzans' opinion differs against yours isn't due to just his own sole reasons; they have a strong link to the Bible and to God. Therefore, disprove the Bible and God, and you will win the argument. Now the chances of someone doing that on the Renegade Forums is pretty low (lol); so like Ziggy said, I think this argument while not pointless - is pretty close. I realise I made alot of assumptions in there and I apologise if I mis-represented anyone's views or offended anyone. Without reading the whole thing, that is the gist of what i'…
creator: snpr1101
date: 2010-04-04T02:35:30-00:00

Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality
type: item
description: The Bible has so much rape and incest in it that it stops being funny by the end of Genesis. It never specifically says "this is ok" as far as I remember, but neither is anyone ever punished for either act- at least not in the canon. Several times, women are handed over by their families to be abused because either the home was under threat or the rapist was a guest in the home- the tradition of hospitality being held as more sacred than the woman. Matter of fact, according to a literal interpretation of the Old Testament, the entire human race would never have existed but for much "begatting" amongst fathers and their daughters- and it's important to note here that the ages at which women became fair play in the ancient world were well below what any first-world nation would today consider statutory rape. I have nothing against the Bible, I really don't- it is not only one of the most influential books ever compiled, but also a stupendously valuable anthropological resource that can grant us great insight into how people thought and worshiped in the ancient Middle East. It is not, however, a very good morality guide for modern society if taken literally- not even the New Testament, which throws out the OT's fire-and-brimstone approach to dealing with sinners. Anyone who chooses to believe is free to do so, but to impress those beliefs on others who don't is no less wrong than any other sort of religious persecution. To codify those beliefs into law or to claim them as outside or above the law is a terrible step backwards for any nation that allows it to happen. Law and religion ought never to mix.
creator: NukeIt15
date: 2010-04-04T04:35:24-00:00