Command and Conquer: Renegade Official Forums - RDF feed
C&C: Renegade --> Dying since 2003™, resurrected in 2024!
OK, so people think the pointsfix should be optional for each community. I agree. This is a reasonable position to take. (although, it MUST be said that most people who say this tend to actually disagree with their own position when you give them an example, i.e. when i wanted to use the pointsfix in the clanwars league... when that happens, it seems to be that a community's admin ISN'T allowed to decide this, must instead submit to bullying and manipulation from a bunch of cheaters) So let's make the pointsfix optional. What will happen? Some servers will use the points bug, some servers with the points fix. Players can take this into consideration when they decide where they want to play, just like they take all the other server settings into account (map rotation, game size, rules about whether flaming APCs are allowed...) Everybody's happy. Right? Wrong. I present to you the problem of the a00 nicks. One community has a monopoly upon them, and therefore, the game listings. While this monopoly remains, no new server has a chance of flourishing. For example, there is currently nowhere with the ideal ladder settings (i.e. pointsfix, zero start credits, no donate... in other words, the default version of renegade!), and there is no way a server with these settings could ever hope to draw new players. Let's examine the validity of the two "dictatorships" here. TT's authority to patch the game, and the Jelly community's monopoly on the a00 names. TT is a group that EA has entrusted to patch this game. That's quite impressive. Why does the Jelly community have the a00 names? One reason and one reason alone: they got there first when WOL changed to XWIS. That's all. There is no special reason why they deserve this. Anybody could have gotten there first. We can, if we like, speculate who else was trying to do the same thing at the time, or what would have happened if they got there five minutes before Jelly did. This authority was not given to Jelly by EA or by Westwood or even by Strike-Team. This authority was not elected by the community either. This authority was seized. Now, Jelly himself is my friend, and I will admit that there are many people who could have abused this situation far more. But that does not change anything. Now, even though the anti-pointsfix crowd has lost every single debate on the subject AND has been caught using the most appalling tactics imaginable, TT is still making this concession: make the pointsfix optional. So, I think it is fair for the Jelly community to make the same kind of concession on the dictatorship THEY enforce on renegade... which, unlike TT, they have no valid claim upon. Clearly one group must have control over these names. So who? If anybody deserves this authority (and someone WILL have it no matter what), who deserves it more than TT? And please don't say the Jelly community, that would be a bad joke and not even a very good one. So, I propose that TT acquire the a00 names and take on the responsibility of distributing them. I absolutely swear that I would do everything to ensure they are used fairly. For example, the Jelly community certainly deserves one (as do other long-standing communities like n00bstories), but it doesn't deserve as many as it wants, and it doesn't deserve to say who else gets one and who doesn't. (For Jelly himself: I've often seen you complain about the way you get flamed over your choices in this matter. Sure, some of the flaming against you has been excessive, but if you can't handle getting criticised for wielding power, don't wield power at all, especially when you seized it in the first place. I CAN handle it.) Need another argument to support my position? The points bug has taught players all kinds of bad habits that some people just aren't good enough to shake off. I suppose it's OK if they want to host a server where they don't have to get any better at the game, where they can shoot tanks ineffectually instead of doing something useful, and where if they run out of money because their refinery and harvesters keep dying it ISN'T their fault for not doing something more useful to prevent it. Well, if you wanna keep that in your server, go ahead. But the same people who think this also have an undeserved, unchallengeable chokehold on the game listings... do I need to spell out the enormous problem here? Any new player is gonna jump straight into these flawed servers and end up corrupted by the same bad habits, not knowing what Renegade's points system was supposed to be like. And if anyone says I'm asking something unreasonable here, then don't act like TT would be unreasonable to make the pointsfix mandatory. At least TT's authority in the matter of the pointsfix was actually EARNED. If anyone from the Jelly community said: "no, they're ours, suck it up", then it would be IMPOSSIBLE to argue that TT would be wrong if we said "no, the decision to make the pointsfix compulsory is ours to make, suck it up". If anyone from the Jelly community still wants to whinge about dictatorships when they talk about the pointsfix, how about they start by relinquishing their own dictatorship over the game listings?
Anticipatively moved to heated discussions and debates.
I don't normally waste my time in these threads but I will say this A000 names - done to death, nothing will change and there no way that TT should ever have power over them, also with the TT patch being forced (for XWIS users), A00 nicks won't matter since the current scripts (3.4.4) already list servers by count not names. Points 'fix' - Sure, make it mandatory, it will take what? a few hours to bypass it with scripts.dll Sorry to rip your nice long post apart with a few simple facts Hex. **excuse the edits - just home from night shift and its time for bed!
It is not possible to completely take away the server nick? So the the list is sorted by players ingame the first place and by server name on second?
Hex wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 04:38 there no way that TT should even have power over them Then perhaps you can justify to me the Jelly community's power over them? Hex wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 04:38 Points 'fix' - Sure, make it mandatory, it will take what? a few hours to bypass it with scripts.dll I'm not suggesting we make it mandatory.
Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 10:57 Then perhaps you can justify to me the Jelly community's power over them? I have no need to justify it, can you justify them not having power over them considering that it won't matter? Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 10:57 I'm not suggesting we make it mandatory. I know, I was just pointing out that it would not matter if it was mandatory or up to the server owner that ran the server.
Hex wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 05:01 I have no need to justify it I rather think you do. Please post a brief list of all the renegade communities in which you are a admin/moderator? Hex wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 05:01 can you justify them not having power over them considering that it won't matter? Firstly it matters now. Secondly can you explain for everyone exactly what "will" happen about server nicks? Be specific, please.
As Hex pointed out, even if the points fix was mandatory, someone could create a server hack in the form of scripts.dll to re-introduce it. Whether it's mandatory or not, people will inevitably have the option either way. The new TT patch sorts games by xwis player count, not nicks. Unless you are talking about an interim solution to the problem, then the debate on should Jelly be stripped of the nicks or not is irrelevant, as they will count for nothing with the patch is enforced. The solution of sorting by xwis player count puts the decision of what server should be listed at the top firmly in the hands of the most important person, the player. If people like the server, it will be at the top, if they don't, then it will simply dwindle... As much as I would like to say drop the list by xwis player count idea, and let it be listed by nick names still, then give me the power to assign who I feel should be at the top, it seems fairer to let players decide with there feet (or mice). The only thing I would like to change about the TT system is the listing by player counts based on xwis counts. Preferably the player count would be accurate instead and take into consideration direct connections. I understand why this isn't going to happen though...
Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 10:36 There is no special reason why they deserve this. Anybody could have gotten there first. We can, if we like, speculate who else was trying to do the same thing at the time, or what would have happened if they got there five minutes before Jelly did. well, they didnt. Jelly was faster and so he deserve it. its like in real life, the one who is faster get the better place/wins. Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 10:36 Now, Jelly himself is my friend, and I will admit that there are many people who could have abused this situation far more. But that does not change anything. so, you wanna say jelly did abuse it? Did he hinder all others to get the a00`s faster? Did he cheat or such?? Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 10:36 Now, even though the anti-pointsfix crowd has lost every single debate on the subject AND has been caught using the most appalling tactics imaginable nice lie! The fact that the pointmod did empty j1 is still a valid reason against the pointmod. Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 10:36 Any new player is gonna jump straight into these flawed servers and end up corrupted by the same bad habits, not knowing what Renegade's points system was supposed to be like. if they played the multiplayer training map first, then they played without the pointmod, and so they just join a server where the point system is the same like the one where they learned to play ren on multiplayer. They buy a game, they learn it, and they get the hang to this pointsystem, and they like it. whats wrong with this? Isnt it the players choice on wich server or with wich pointsystem he wanna play? Ren was made and marketed with this "flawed" pointsystem. Greetz telly ^^
I suppose one of the key elements in this whole discussion would be "how long will the interim period last". It's blatantly obvious that some very long lasting communities have died or are on the brink of dying and other very new communities are florishing, because of the a00 nicknames. The fact one person/community can decide about the florishing or dying of long lasting communities in Renegade is indeed worrying, but it has been so, and we've lived for it, for the last years. I'm thinking of black-cell, MP-gaming and many other communities. Ironically the communities that are florishing today, doing so at the expense of those examples, are all using game server tools that have been created by e.g. black-cell (SSGM), MP-gaming (reborn released multiple scripts), BI (BIATCH), ... I find it personally very ironical that BlackIntel's request for a higher nickname got denied while the people owning the nicknames are using BlackIntel's work to protect their servers from cheaters (BIATCH). But hey, I suppose we all have our reasons. We all know that this "problem" can - until TT makes its way to be an official patch - only be solved by jelly himself. He made his POV very clear a while ago, so I'm not sure at all what Spoony wants to accomplish with this topic. It won't bring any results. It just has the merit of stating the obvious - again. And before someone comes up with it: I'm not objective on the matter myself. I'm using a more or less high a0 nickname for TK2 community (a0000000b, not owned by Jelly BTW) and I've been in a conflict with Jelly in a far away past about a0 as well. But I still like to express my opinion on the matter (in a civilized way). Last but not least: bringing multiplayer practice into this whole debate is probably one of the worst choices u could make, Telly... seriously...
Goztow wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 13:33 Last but not least: bringing multiplayer practice into this whole debate is probably one of the worst choices u could make, Telly... seriously... this sentence from me had to do with the pointmod. coz the pointmod is NOT part of the original game. greetz telly ^^
Yes, that's what I was aiming at. The map in multiplayer practise has never been updated with any patch. It contains a high number of errors. E.g. if u purchase a sbh and then purchase another character, that other character will be stealth. Other example:; the rocks at the Nod refinery are positioned differently than in the 1.037 version of Under. Just to show that your example is completely non representative of online play for things like e.g. points...
tellsson wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 13:20 well, they didnt. Jelly was faster and so he deserve it. its like in real life, the one who is faster get the better place/wins. So you wanna tell me that a00 (from Jelly to n00bstories) hostnames are regular registered nicknames? (without switching WOL to XWIS). I thought it all started from A00000000. These hostnames which have Jelly and n00bstories started when XWIS was launched. Correct me if Im wrong.
The highest nickname I had registered was a0000000h, or maybe e, I don't remember. The nickname I have was loaned, then later given to me by Jelly. As was stated here, Jelly decides who gets to be on the top of the list. TK2, for example, fell out of favor with Jelly and lost their high standing on the list. Communities like Black Cell and Black Intel who have made the most prolific tools for servers like SSGM and BIATCH are denied their requests from the very person who is using their software for their own server.
Bypassing pointsfix will take quite a bit more then a few hours to bypass since you need to reverse a good deal of the damage chain...
If you want to do it properly, but surely you could just throw in some crappy server hack on the ::damsged event, to grant points to the damager, using a conditional of the damaged objects health percent? I know what you're saying is right, but I think it could be done in a shitty way fairly quickly.
Which would in turn lag the fuck out of the server.
Goztow wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 14:05 Yes, that's what I was aiming at. The map in multiplayer practise has never been updated with any patch. It contains a high number of errors. E.g. if u purchase a sbh and then purchase another character, that other character will be stealth. Other example:; the rocks at the Nod refinery are positioned differently than in the 1.037 version of Under. Just to show that your example is completely non representative of online play for things like e.g. points... but the players are still used on this pointsystem, and so if they have the choice to play with or without pointmod, they like to play on servers without pointmod. like it was clearly the case on J1. greetz telly ^^ like i said you in the past: i`m not anti-pointmod, i`m pro-community.
tellsson wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 15:30 Goztow wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 14:05 Yes, that's what I was aiming at. The map in multiplayer practise has never been updated with any patch. It contains a high number of errors. E.g. if u purchase a sbh and then purchase another character, that other character will be stealth. Other example:; the rocks at the Nod refinery are positioned differently than in the 1.037 version of Under. Just to show that your example is completely non representative of online play for things like e.g. points... but the players are still used on this pointsystem, and so if they have the choice to play with or without pointmod, they like to play on servers without pointmod. like it was clearly the case on J1. greetz telly ^^ like i said you in the past: i`m not anti-pointmod, i`m pro-community. So the servers should make it so after you buy a sbh, your new character will also be stealthy because people get used to this in the multiplayer practise? Because that's what YOU are saying here. That's independent from the fact if people actually like to play on a server with or without pointfix.
i talked about the pointsystem only. glitches and bugs wich got patched are ok, but a pointsystem is somehow different, or??
tellsson wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 06:20 Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 10:36 There is no special reason why they deserve this. Anybody could have gotten there first. We can, if we like, speculate who else was trying to do the same thing at the time, or what would have happened if they got there five minutes before Jelly did. well, they didnt. Jelly was faster and so he deserve it. its like in real life, the one who is faster get the better place/wins. k, so let's say TT had the ability to patch the game JUST BECAUSE EA said "first person to post here gets to take over the renegade patcher", and crimson got the first post. let's then say TT said: pointsfix will be compulsory and we're also gonna patch the game to make that totally unchangeable. according to your 'logic', there'd be absolutely nothing wrong with TT doing that. the decision would be completely TT's and they wouldn't have to explain it to anybody, because they got there first, case closed. if you think it ISN'T ok for TT to do that just because they got there first (which is, of course, not the case anyway), then perhaps you're beginning to see why it's not OK for Jelly to do the same. tellsson wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 06:20 Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 10:36 Now, Jelly himself is my friend, and I will admit that there are many people who could have abused this situation far more. But that does not change anything. so, you wanna say jelly did abuse it? I don't need to. Even if he used it to the best of his fairness, it's still power he shouldn't have. tellsson wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 06:20 Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 10:36 Now, even though the anti-pointsfix crowd has lost every single debate on the subject AND has been caught using the most appalling tactics imaginable nice lie! The fact that the pointmod did empty j1 is still a valid reason against the pointmod. uh no, i said if you can't even explain why the flawed, unintended system is better and have it stand up to debate - and nobody has done that - you've no right to make sure it continues to impose the same bad habits onto new players, and stunt their skills in the same way yours have been. and, of course, no rebuttal to "AND has been caught using the most appalling tactics imaginable"... but then, you can get away with the most extraordinary bullshit so long as you're against the pointsfix. tellsson wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 06:20 Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 10:36 Any new player is gonna jump straight into these flawed servers and end up corrupted by the same bad habits, not knowing what Renegade's points system was supposed to be like. if they played the multiplayer training map first, then they played without the pointmod, and so they just join a server where the point system is the same like the one where they learned to play ren on multiplayer. um, that does your argument more harm than good. presumably you're outraged at all these servers who've altered the unit costs, the humvee/APC rates of fire, and prevented the ability to ob walk and base to base. tellsson wrote like i said you in the past: i`m not anti-pointmod, i`m pro-community. Prove it. Go to Jelly and tell him he is wrong to keep the a00 names, and it would be better to give them to TT to use them responsibly. reborn wrote The new TT patch sorts games by xwis player count, not nicks. Unless you are talking about an interim solution to the problem, then the debate on should Jelly be stripped of the nicks or not is irrelevant, as they will count for nothing with the patch is enforced. firstly the patch isn't here yet. secondly i'm still waiting for a very clear explanation of exactly how the game listings will work. Goztow wrote I suppose one of the key elements in this whole discussion would be "how long will the interim period last". Certainly. Goztow wrote We all know that this "problem" can - until TT makes its way to be an official patch - only be solved by jelly himself. He made his POV very clear a while ago, so I'm not sure at all what Spoony wants to accomplish with this topic. It won't bring any results. It just has the merit of stating the obvious - again. Yeah, well, I think I've put it better. See the comparison to TT (which is, of course, unfair to TT to begin with since TT's authority was earned, Jelly's wasn't). And by the way, it seems to me that there IS something that can be done about it now... namely recycling the nicknames and putting them under TT's control for fair usage. And I put it to everybody that if the Jelly community can't successfully justify their dictatorship, they can't complain if this happens.
thanks spoony, this place needed some drama <3
Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 16:10 tellsson wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 06:20 Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 10:36 There is no special reason why they deserve this. Anybody could have gotten there first. We can, if we like, speculate who else was trying to do the same thing at the time, or what would have happened if they got there five minutes before Jelly did. well, they didnt. Jelly was faster and so he deserve it. its like in real life, the one who is faster get the better place/wins. k, so let's say TT had the ability to patch the game JUST BECAUSE EA said "first person to post here gets to take over the renegade patcher", and crimson got the first post. let's then say TT said: pointsfix will be compulsory and we're also gonna patch the game to make that totally unchangeable. according to your 'logic', there'd be absolutely nothing wrong with TT doing that. the decision would be completely TT's and they wouldn't have to explain it to anybody, because they got there first, case closed. if you think it ISN'T ok for TT to do that just because they got there first (which is, of course, not the case anyway), then perhaps you're beginning to see why it's not OK for Jelly to do the same. nice hypotheses, but still, fact is: JELLY WAS FASTER. Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 16:10 tellsson wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 06:20 Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 10:36 Now, Jelly himself is my friend, and I will admit that there are many people who could have abused this situation far more. But that does not change anything. so, you wanna say jelly did abuse it? I don't need to. Even if he used it to the best of his fairness, it's still power he shouldn't have. You did! "who could have abused this situation FAR MORE." Imo that means that he did Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 16:10 tellsson wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 06:20 Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 10:36 Now, even though the anti-pointsfix crowd has lost every single debate on the subject AND has been caught using the most appalling tactics imaginable nice lie! The fact that the pointmod did empty j1 is still a valid reason against the pointmod. uh no, i said if you can't even explain why the flawed, unintended system is better and have it stand up to debate - and nobody has done that - you've no right to make sure it continues to impose the same bad habits onto new players, and stunt their skills in the same way yours have been. and, of course, no rebuttal to "AND has been caught using the most appalling tactics imaginable"... but then, you can get away with the most extraordinary bullshit so long as you're against the pointsfix. The fact that the pointmod did empty j1 is still a valid reason against the pointmod. Do you really think i shouldnt defend my "home" against a modification wich kills "my home"? Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 16:10 tellsson wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 06:20 Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 10:36 Any new player is gonna jump straight into these flawed servers and end up corrupted by the same bad habits, not knowing what Renegade's points system was supposed to be like. if they played the multiplayer training map first, then they played without the pointmod, and so they just join a server where the point system is the same like the one where they learned to play ren on multiplayer. um, that does your argument more harm than good. presumably you're outraged at all these servers who've altered the unit costs, the humvee/APC rates of fire, and prevented the ability to ob walk and base to base. this all was changes wich made the game better for the players. the players joined the first server on the list. the players did destignate what they would play, and most of them left j1 coz they didnt make fast enough money (with the included pointmod). They joined other servers wich didnt use the pointmod. Isnt that fact enough what the players want? But dont let this topic turn into another endless pointmod debate. This topic is about the a00 names. Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 16:10 tellsson wrote like i said you in the past: i`m not anti-pointmod, i`m pro-community. Prove it. Go to Jelly and tell him he is wrong to keep the a00 names, and it would be better to give them to TT to use them responsibly. no. I`m a jelly community member for ages, and so my "heart beats for the jelly-community". Is it jelly`s faillure that he got the a00 names? That he was faster then all others? Greetz telly ^^
Maybe someone's said it already, but a00 nicknames won't matter once TT's released; current (and naturally later) versions of scripts.dll sort servers by playercount, not nickname. And once TT is pushed to everyone, that entirely eliminates the problem.
tellsson wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 09:58 Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 16:10 tellsson wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 06:20 Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 10:36 There is no special reason why they deserve this. Anybody could have gotten there first. We can, if we like, speculate who else was trying to do the same thing at the time, or what would have happened if they got there five minutes before Jelly did. well, they didnt. Jelly was faster and so he deserve it. its like in real life, the one who is faster get the better place/wins. k, so let's say TT had the ability to patch the game JUST BECAUSE EA said "first person to post here gets to take over the renegade patcher", and crimson got the first post. let's then say TT said: pointsfix will be compulsory and we're also gonna patch the game to make that totally unchangeable. according to your 'logic', there'd be absolutely nothing wrong with TT doing that. the decision would be completely TT's and they wouldn't have to explain it to anybody, because they got there first, case closed. if you think it ISN'T ok for TT to do that just because they got there first (which is, of course, not the case anyway), then perhaps you're beginning to see why it's not OK for Jelly to do the same. nice hypotheses, but still, fact is: JELLY WAS FASTER. How does that refute the fact that its unfair? Quote: Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 16:10 tellsson wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 06:20 Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 10:36 Now, Jelly himself is my friend, and I will admit that there are many people who could have abused this situation far more. But that does not change anything. so, you wanna say jelly did abuse it? I don't need to. Even if he used it to the best of his fairness, it's still power he shouldn't have. You did! "who could have abused this situation FAR MORE." Imo that means that he did He's not saying he didnt, he's saying that it doesnt matter if he did, because his point would still stand either way. Quote: Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 16:10 tellsson wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 06:20 Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 10:36 Now, even though the anti-pointsfix crowd has lost every single debate on the subject AND has been caught using the most appalling tactics imaginable nice lie! The fact that the pointmod did empty j1 is still a valid reason against the pointmod. uh no, i said if you can't even explain why the flawed, unintended system is better and have it stand up to debate - and nobody has done that - you've no right to make sure it continues to impose the same bad habits onto new players, and stunt their skills in the same way yours have been. and, of course, no rebuttal to "AND has been caught using the most appalling tactics imaginable"... but then, you can get away with the most extraordinary bullshit so long as you're against the pointsfix. The fact that the pointmod did empty j1 is still a valid reason against the pointmod. Do you really think i shouldnt defend my "home" against a modification wich kills "my home"? It's a valid reason to make an argument about large parts of j1 players being stubborn people alright. Not that I care if they are, its their server.
hahaha spoonys not happy because someone else has more renepower than him. jelly can keep his server names, and u can keep ur -50% on ur ladder to even the scale.
also, about BC dying did you guys ever consider that people might not like 4 rebuildable turrets to each base on rush maps?
ELiT3FLyR wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 17:50 hahaha spoonys not happy because someone else has more renepower than him. jelly can keep his server names, and u can keep ur -50% on ur ladder to even the scale. You = idiot.
If we ran the point fix still this topic wouldn't have been made, because your precious "fix" would be in use. It's yet another tool people will try to use against me. I can't be arsed with some e-drama. All I will say is you can fuck off. I thought you knew me a little better than to go about things this way. I aint getting into some debate, it's pointless and been recycled more than I can remember. Good luck with your crusade against me.
The one and only argument 'the PEOPLE that PLAY the game do NOT like it' is enough to blow away all of your "fix" theories btw, Spoony. The people playing in our server do not like it, we do not like it, therefore we do not use it. Just because of this simple fact you start a random rage about our position on the listings (which jelly got on a 'first come first serve' basis) for all the people that still don't use 3.4.4.
so say we all. wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 17:34 tellsson wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 09:58 Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 16:10 tellsson wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 06:20 Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 10:36 There is no special reason why they deserve this. Anybody could have gotten there first. We can, if we like, speculate who else was trying to do the same thing at the time, or what would have happened if they got there five minutes before Jelly did. well, they didnt. Jelly was faster and so he deserve it. its like in real life, the one who is faster get the better place/wins. k, so let's say TT had the ability to patch the game JUST BECAUSE EA said "first person to post here gets to take over the renegade patcher", and crimson got the first post. let's then say TT said: pointsfix will be compulsory and we're also gonna patch the game to make that totally unchangeable. according to your 'logic', there'd be absolutely nothing wrong with TT doing that. the decision would be completely TT's and they wouldn't have to explain it to anybody, because they got there first, case closed. if you think it ISN'T ok for TT to do that just because they got there first (which is, of course, not the case anyway), then perhaps you're beginning to see why it's not OK for Jelly to do the same. nice hypotheses, but still, fact is: JELLY WAS FASTER. How does that refute the fact that its unfair? Anybody could have gotten there first. So what is unfair about that jelly was faster then all others?? Imagine that: a race. Some1 wins and earns the prize. What is unfair about that? so say we all. wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 17:34 tellsson wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 09:58 Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 16:10 tellsson wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 06:20 Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 10:36 Now, Jelly himself is my friend, and I will admit that there are many people who could have abused this situation far more. But that does not change anything. so, you wanna say jelly did abuse it? I don't need to. Even if he used it to the best of his fairness, it's still power he shouldn't have. You did! "who could have abused this situation FAR MORE." Imo that means that he did He's not saying he didnt, he's saying that it doesnt matter if he did, because his point would still stand either way. Isnt it jelly`s right to do whatever he wants with his servers? Like i said, every other community had the same rights, but jelly was faster. so say we all. wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 17:34 tellsson wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 09:58 Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 16:10 tellsson wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 06:20 Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 10:36 Now, even though the anti-pointsfix crowd has lost every single debate on the subject AND has been caught using the most appalling tactics imaginable nice lie! The fact that the pointmod did empty j1 is still a valid reason against the pointmod. uh no, i said if you can't even explain why the flawed, unintended system is better and have it stand up to debate - and nobody has done that - you've no right to make sure it continues to impose the same bad habits onto new players, and stunt their skills in the same way yours have been. and, of course, no rebuttal to "AND has been caught using the most appalling tactics imaginable"... but then, you can get away with the most extraordinary bullshit so long as you're against the pointsfix. The fact that the pointmod did empty j1 is still a valid reason against the pointmod. Do you really think i shouldnt defend my "home" against a modification wich kills "my home"? It's a valid reason to make an argument about large parts of j1 players being stubborn people alright. Not that I care if they are, its their server. You`re right, its our server. I wonder how you would act if a modification empties the server where you played for ages. You could see that it`s clearly the modification wich kills your favourite server. And you`d accept that? Greetz telly ^^ and for the rest, read td`s and jellys post.
Ethenal wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 17:30 Maybe someone's said it already, but a00 nicknames won't matter once TT's released; current (and naturally later) versions of scripts.dll sort servers by playercount, not nickname. And once TT is pushed to everyone, that entirely eliminates the problem. THIS.
If I wanted to make the name "Spoony" on renegade would I have as much a right to it as spoony does? After all, why should he get the name just because he registered it first!
tellsson wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 09:58 You did! "who could have abused this situation FAR MORE." Imo that means that he did Surth understands my point. I don't NEED to say he abused it. My point stands whether he abused it or not. tellsson wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 09:58 The fact that the pointmod did empty j1 is still a valid reason against the pointmod. Do you really think i shouldnt defend my "home" against a modification wich kills "my home"? Sure it's enough for you to choose to use the pointsbug in your server. But when the same community has a stranglehold on the game listings, there's a problem. tellsson wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 09:58 this all was changes wich made the game better for the players. And so it's not really about what the "original" game was like, so you've defeated your own argument. tellsson wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 09:58 no. I`m a jelly community member for ages, and so my "heart beats for the jelly-community". Ah. So when you said you were pro-community, what you meant was the wishes of the Jelly community, valid or not, trump everyone else's? simpee wrote hahaha spoonys not happy because someone else has more renepower than him. jelly can keep his server names, and u can keep ur -50% on ur ladder to even the scale. That doesn't even the scale. My ladder isn't a monopoly over Renegade. Anyone else can make a ladder, it's not my fault nobody else can be bothered. That's not the same as a monopoly. Don't equate the two. Jelly wrote It's yet another tool people will try to use against me. I can't be arsed with some e-drama. All I will say is you can fuck off. I thought you knew me a little better than to go about things this way. I aint getting into some debate, it's pointless and been recycled more than I can remember. Good luck with your crusade against me. Go about things what way? Disagree with your monopoly? If you can disagree with the perceived notion that I want to force the pointsfix on your server (which is untrue), then I can disagree with your monopoly on the game listings. This is not a crusade against you. Anyway, we now have our answer, and we can now make another comparison between TT and jelly. question 1: how did TT respond to people disagreeing with the pointsfix? answer: TT went to INCREDIBLE lengths to engage them in debate, find out what they thought and why. made an extraordinary effort to post all the arguments and evidence for the pointsfix (none of which have been refuted), and comported themselves with infinitely more civility than the people arguing against them. suggested several compromises between the two positions, all of which were violently rejected by the anti-pointsfix crowd. eventually said: ok, we'll give you everything you want (well, not quite everything; they also wanted the ability to say "spoony should not be allowed to choose whether to use the pointsfix in his own community", but any fool can see that's asking too much... sadly a great many people on the anti-pointsfix crowd don't seem to be on the intellectual level of a fool) and of course, TT and I still get the shit flamed out of us at every turn, despite giving these kiddies everything they wanted (which is exactly, EXACTLY what i predicted would happen) question 2: how did the jelly community respond to people disagreeing with their undeserved monopoly on the game listings? answer: "All I will say is you can fuck off." if anybody says the situation should not change, you're basically saying jelly is better qualified to control the game listings than TT... and given the difference between TT and Jelly here, I just don't see how anybody can seriously think that. the strongest argument in support of jelly's monopoly has been posted by tellsson. tellsson wrote Anybody could have gotten there first. So what is unfair about that jelly was faster then all others?? Imagine that: a race. Some1 wins and earns the prize. What is unfair about that? tellsson wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 09:58 nice hypotheses, but still, fact is: JELLY WAS FASTER. here's what this means. let's reduce TT to jelly's level and say: imagine TT has the patch authority because crimson "got there first" (which is of course untrue, but let's make the situations equal). let's say TT did decide: pointsfix is compulsory, and we will make it so there is no way to reverse this. TT can simply say: "TT does deserve this authority because we got there first, case closed. get used to it." or, to borrow Jelly's words, "All I will say is you can fuck off." so, jelly community, which way do you want to have it? there are two options. the red pill and the blue pill. 1. jelly keeps its monopoly on the game lists. if so, TT can if they choose just say: "pointsfix for everybody, nothing you can do about it"... in other words, acting the same way jelly is. 2. if you try to argue that TT shouldn't say that (and you have), you can't keep your monopoly on the game lists. give the a00 names to TT. pick one. and this works even when you reduce TT's claim to authority to the level of jelly's, "we got there first". TT's claim is of course much stronger than that. and, TT has gone to incredible lengths to deal with people who disagree, no matter how pathetically they try to advance their case. jelly has not budged an inch on this, ever. how about the anti-pointsfix crowd be reasonable, for the very first time? you've never done it before, but you might find it actually works. so, jelly community, perhaps you'd like to try to put forth a better argument, because if you can't do better than this, it's clear the a00 situation can - and should - be rectified. immediately. don't worry, you'll keep one a00 name (even though you've had the chokehold long enough that you hardly still need one). we'll even say you can keep the top one, eh?
stoned wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 20:36 If I wanted to make the name "Spoony" on renegade would I have as much a right to it as spoony does? After all, why should he get the name just because he registered it first! ...
Or.. we can keep all of them because they're our nicks. Jelly will assign them as he sees fit, period. What gives TT the right to Jelly's nicks? Nothing. That'd be saying like what gives me the right to my raven nickname, even though I registered it first... uhh, clearly I registered it first therefore it's my nick Like someone said before, this is all a moot point when the patch is released, and is already a moot point for those who use 3.4.4, go debate something of real importance rather than something that personally bothers you. It clearly does or you wouldn't spend so much of your time debating pointless things like this. Kindly fuck off and take your pointsfix with you. Respectfully yours r.
I have a question, Are the server names tied to a serial key? or are they like our log on names where I can log on any instance renegade with a correct name and password?
kadoosh wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 12:47 I have a question, Are the server names tied to a serial key? or are they like our log on names where I can log on any instance renegade with a correct name and password? They're tied to a serial for purposes of resetting passwords. Other than that, it doesn't matter what serial you're using for logging in.
Raven, I appreciate you proving my point about the difference between TT and Jelly; namely how TT goes to such incredible lengths to accommodate people who disagree with us, yet the Jelly community just says "fuck off, it's our decision, get used to it" and insults me for even bringing it up. Here's what Jelly said on the jelly forum about this... Jelly wrote People who play here like it, we don't abuse anyone, we moderate well. We provide a good service to the people who play here. Just because we stopped to run your points fix you spat your dummy and looked for an angle, and found it in your eyes. We're the only community who actively tries to organise community games on a regular basis, we organise internal tournamnets, we organise 2v2 tournaments. We try to keep people interested in the game and keep ut fun. Yet you choose to publically attack us because we don't like the "fix"? Seriously what the fuck is wrong with you dude? I've no need to defend myself here or on the renforums, and as I said there, you can seriously fuck right off now. As you can see, there's absolutely nothing in here defending Jelly's monopoly on the game listings. Just changes the subject and says two things 1. jelly servers are great 2. spoony is "publicly attacking us because we don't like the pointsfix" point 1: jelly servers are great. i'm not saying otherwise right now. total subject change. point 2 is the real lunacy. if i disagree with jelly's monopoly, and if i made a pretty good case why it's wrong, i'm "publicly attacking us because we don't like the pointsfix". so not only do you maintain your monopoly, the power you seized in the first place, you belittle legitimate criticism of it. this makes your side weaker, not stronger.
You're ugly and your mother dresses you funny. How's that for an insult?
raven wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 13:48 kadoosh wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 12:47 I have a question, Are the server names tied to a serial key? or are they like our log on names where I can log on any instance renegade with a correct name and password? They're tied to a serial for purposes of resetting passwords. Other than that, it doesn't matter what serial you're using for logging in. I'm just trying to get facts here so bare with me. Was it durring the WOL -> Xwis change that these names were registered?
I certainly appreciate the people running the show at Jelly making their side weaker and weaker with every post. I've done nothing wrong to upset any of you. Legitimate criticism of your undeserved monopoly on Renegade's game listings doesn't count - if you can criticise TT out of fear that we're imposing the pointsfix on you (which isn't true, of course), you can't say I can't criticise your chokehold on the game listings. And yet your best reply is "fuck off". I don't think many people still thought Jelly community was qualified to manage the a00 listings (something I myself thought a while ago, which is why I defended chris against fl00d3d, for example), but if anybody still does, they can just look at this thread, and compare Jelly's reaction to criticism to the way TT reacted to criticism of the pointsfix (i.e. going to incredible lengths to debate the subject, suggesting lots and lots of compromises all of which were violently rejected, then simply agreeing to give the anti-pointsfix crowd everything they asked for). This is a night-and-day difference. I think that if we showed EA, and Olaf, this thread and the Jelly admins' replies to it, it would be pretty easy to get their support. I think my original post did a pretty good job of making the case, but Jelly's replies pretty much close it. Here's an idea, Jelly... if you give up without a further fight, we'll make sure you keep the top name. Otherwise how about we go to EA and XWIS and see what they think about recycling the names and giving TT control of them? And if that happens, TT will run them fairly, I promise you, and give them out where they deserve. Before I made this thread I was convinced the Jelly community did deserve one (but not more than one). After reading the replies, I'm not so sure.
There's clearly something you aren't understanding or you just don't want to accept. We do not have to give up our nicks to TT for any reason whatsoever. It would be a different situation if we didn't use all of them, I agree. All the nicknames are though, some are even loaned to n00bstories, n00bless, and Exodus. Sure, there are some more deserving communities, but they got the short end of the straw. Sure it's unfortunate that others didn't register the nicks at the start of XWIS, but that's how it is and that's how it has been for several years. The truth of the matter is, no matter where your server is on the game listings, it will get players if it's a good server. Sit idle in any server for a few minutes and you'll get at least one more player to join, no matter where it is. If it's a good server, they will come back. If not, tough shit. You can hardly compare TT to Jelly. Jelly is a gaming community, TT is an elitist group of "respected" (note the quotations) and knowledgeable people chosen to create a patch for the game we all love. Governance of the game should not come into play. No one governs Renegade. How about TT sticks to what it's meant to do, create the patch and that's it? No one has the right to the nickname other than the creator which is Jelly. That's it. Soviet Union, anyone?
Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 20:01 I've done nothing wrong to upset any of you. Except for starting a crusade, nope. Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 20:01 Legitimate criticism Yes Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 20:01 of your undeserved monopoly on Renegade's game listings doesn't count No. Please elaborate where this is undeserved. I have skipped reading most of this thread, but I am curious how you will explain to me how Jelly would not be allowed to have the hostnames, because Jelly was the first to register it! Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 20:01 if you can criticise TT out of fear that we're imposing the pointsfix on you (which isn't true, of course), you can't say I can't criticise your chokehold on the game listings. Jelly and it's community appears to be against the pointfix. Sure, you can criticise Jelly's a00 nicknames, but you're throwing in false assumptions, like where it is undeserved and all. Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 20:01 I don't think many people still thought Jelly community was qualified to manage the a00 listings Since when did Jelly start MANAGING the a00 listings? I thoguth XWIS was managing the server listings? Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 20:01 but if anybody still does, they can just look at this thread, and compare Jelly's reaction to criticism to the way TT reacted to criticism of the pointsfix (i.e. going to incredible lengths to debate the subject, suggesting lots and lots of compromises all of which were violently rejected, then simply agreeing to give the anti-pointsfix crowd everything they asked for). This is like comparing a cow and a horse. Want me to explain? - Jelly has the right to own that nickname simply because he was the first to register it. It is his nickname and it will stay that way, unless Jelly (The Owner) decides to give it away. See it like a domain name, if I registered a000000.com, and Someone would be like LUL I WANT IT BCUZ U UNFAIR, what would give him the right to claim it? I was the first to register it, so it's my right to keep it as I see fit. - The Pointfix on the other hand is not a domain name and not a first come first serve thing. It's simply a mod the server owners can choose to run. Just like a commander plugin, a veteran plugin, donate, ctf, etc, etc. It changes gameplay. Clearly, the pointsfix is right. There, I've said it. The arguments for it make sense. Though, isn't it the right of the server owners to do with it what they want? My co-op server was running a plugin where you could be buying credits in exchange for points. You can alter points. Would you disallow those aswell? Isn't it up to the server owner how they run their server and WHAT they run at their server? Isn't it up to the player to choose what server they like, what gamemode they like, and what server they play in? You can choose yourself to stop joining the server without the pointfix. Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 20:01 I think that if we showed EA, and Olaf, this thread and the Jelly admins' replies to it, it would be pretty easy to get their support. I think my original post did a pretty good job of making the case, but Jelly's replies pretty much close it. I think you should get off your high horse. Maybe half of the community is pro-pointfix and half is against it. (Just pulling statistics out of my ass, don't get me wrong!) Doesn't EA wish to see FULL community support? So.. giving them the option to put it on/off would satisfy everyone.. right? Everyone can choose what they like, case closed.
Crimson We are most likely going to penalize but not remove servers from participating in the official ladder for keeping the bugged points system. That is showing a lack of respect for people's opinions, the same lack of respect that you (spoony) show everytime you reply to anyone which do not agree with you. So no, I can't see how the TT team could be better than Jelly at managing server nicks, seeing how much some of you care about anyone's opinion, and how much some of your team members plays fair. We'll have one single entity that has proven to have members which only does their own interests and that can't listen to people's needs, dictating and having full decisional power to what's left of Renegade. no thanks.
Prulez wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 13:18 Except for starting a crusade, nope. Crusade? You have an unchallengeable, undeserved monopoly on the game listings, and if I post legitimate criticism of it (and the admins react in the violent and unreasonable way they have), this makes me the bad guy? Prulez wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 13:18 No. Please elaborate where this is undeserved. I have skipped reading most of this thread, but I am curious how you will explain to me how Jelly would not be allowed to have the hostnames, because Jelly was the first to register it! Duhhh, because Jelly has registered ALL the top listings, so when you log in all you see is the Jelly servers and the servers Jelly currently favours. And, yet again, this means any new server has no hope of drawing players. Prulez wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 13:18 Since when did Jelly start MANAGING the a00 listings? I thoguth XWIS was managing the server listings? They say who gets all the a00 names. They say who's top on the game listings. They say: all our servers go right at the top, and our friends come next, and if you cross us we'll take the name back, and if you don't like it you can fuck off. This is totalitarianism on a scale that dwarfs anything you can say about TT. Prulez wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 13:18 - Jelly has the right to own that nickname simply because he was the first to register it. It is his nickname and it will stay that way, unless Jelly (The Owner) decides to give it away. See it like a domain name, if I registered a000000.com, and Someone would be like LUL I WANT IT BCUZ U UNFAIR, what would give him the right to claim it? I was the first to register it, so it's my right to keep it as I see fit. But in this case, you'd be registering MILLIONS of domain names, which meant that anyone trying to start a website would have to get your permission or it would have no chance of succeeding. Prulez wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 13:18 The Pointfix on the other hand is not a domain name and not a first come first serve thing. It's simply a mod the server owners can choose to run. Just like a commander plugin, a veteran plugin, donate, ctf, etc, etc. It changes gameplay. Clearly, the pointsfix is right. There, I've said it. The arguments for it make sense. Though, isn't it the right of the server owners to do with it what they want? My co-op server was running a plugin where you could be buying credits in exchange for points. You can alter points. Would you disallow those aswell? Isn't it up to the server owner how they run their server and WHAT they run at their server? Isn't it up to the player to choose what server they like, what gamemode they like, and what server they play in? You can choose yourself to stop joining the server without the pointfix. Of course. TT agrees with this position, and so do I. (Although, many people on the anti-pointsfix side actually DO NOT agree with this position - they violently disagreed with my right to use the pointsfix in the clanwars league, which instantly destroys their creidibility) Prulez wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 13:18 I think you should get off your high horse. Maybe half of the community is pro-pointfix and half is against it. (Just pulling statistics out of my ass, don't get me wrong!) Doesn't EA wish to see FULL community support? So.. giving them the option to put it on/off would satisfy everyone.. right? Everyone can choose what they like, case closed. No, it's not case closed, because Jelly keeps its monopoly over the game listings. I'm not saying TT is about to say: "ok, we're gonna pull a jelly here, pointsfix is compulsory and if you don't like it you can fuck off". I'm saying that IF WE DID, you would see how wrong it was. Jelly does the same with the game listings (indeed WORSE, because jelly's claim to the a00 names is much weaker than TT's patching authority), and it seems like you can't see how wrong THAT is. Why not? It benefits you. raven wrote There's clearly something you aren't understanding or you just don't want to accept. We do not have to give up our nicks to TT for any reason whatsoever. raven, the difference between TT and Jelly has already been made very clear. i.e. TT goes to incredible lengths to accommodate those who disagree, while Jelly just says "fuck off, it's ours, get used to it". It's OK, this point has already been made. raven wrote It would be a different situation if we didn't use all of them, I agree. All the nicknames are though, some are even loaned to n00bstories, n00bless, and Exodus. Sure, there are some more deserving communities, but they got the short end of the straw. Worthless statement; the choice of who gets them is entirely the Jelly community's. raven wrote The truth of the matter is, no matter where your server is on the game listings, it will get players if it's a good server. Sit idle in any server for a few minutes and you'll get at least one more player to join, no matter where it is. If it's a good server, they will come back. If not, tough shit. I used to think this. (this is why I defended chris against fl00d3d). I was proven wrong. SpoonySrv. I briefly had an a00 name for that, and while I did, it was always full. A while later the name was taken back, and it was always empty. And yet nobody, nobody had a problem with the server. There was no criticism about the way it was run. (I can give you plenty of criticisms against the jelly servers if you like?) I know now better. You don't, because you've never needed to know; the situation benefits you and so you can't see the problem. raven wrote You can hardly compare TT to Jelly. That's right. I feel rather dirty when I compared TT to Jelly; it's incredibly unfair to TT. TT actually deserved the authority it wants to use, Jelly doesn't. TT defends itself from criticism by going to incredible lengths to accommodate those who disagree. Jelly just tells them to fuck off. This is a night-and-day difference. raven wrote Jelly is a gaming community if this is all you are, start acting like it. give up your monopoly on the game listings. Cunin wrote Quote: Crimson We are most likely going to penalize but not remove servers from participating in the official ladder for keeping the bugged points system. That is showing a lack of respect for people's opinions, the same lack of respect that you (spoony) show everytime you reply to anyone which do not agree with you. Actually, crimson's post shows nothing of the sort. As for lack of respect for anyone who disagrees, you might want to objectively compare my posts replying to criticism of the pointsfix, against jelly's posts replying to criticism of the a00 situation. Again, it's a night-and-day difference. Cunin wrote So no, I can't see how the TT team could be better than Jelly at managing server nicks Then you haven't been reading this thread very carefully. Cunin wrote We'll have one single entity that has proven to have members which only does their own interests and that can't listen to people's needs, dictating and having full decisional power to what's left of Renegade. We already do. It's called the Jelly community. It wouldn't be the same if TT gained control of the a00 names.
Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 12:52 Raven, I appreciate you proving my point about the difference between TT and Jelly; namely how TT goes to such incredible lengths to accommodate people who disagree with us, yet the Jelly community just says "fuck off, it's our decision, get used to it" and insults me for even bringing it up. Are you serious? Far more people agree to not have the point fix, so Jelly does not implement the pointfix. They accommodated their players wishes. If more people wanted the pointfix, I guarantee it would be on his servers.. Jelly owns the names, no one has the right to take them away. Jelly also owns his servers, and can do what he pleases (which is usually what the players want)-- TT does not own Renegade, and can not just take all of HIS names.
Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 11:05 I rather think you do. Please post a brief list of all the renegade communities in which you are a admin/moderator? me, I own n00bless, I also use the 003 nick and before you do your 'oh so thats why your saying this' you should know that 90% of my players are game spy users. Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 11:05 Firstly it matters now. Secondly can you explain for everyone exactly what "will" happen about server nicks? Be specific, please. I love the way you answer a question with a question so how about you answer my question instead of avoiding it like you always seem to do. Ghostshaw wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 14:08 Bypassing pointsfix will take quite a bit more then a few hours to bypass since you need to reverse a good deal of the damage chain... It's a good job that we (at n00bless) already have this Ghostshaw wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 14:08 Bypassing pointsfix will take quite a bit more then a few hours to bypass since you need to reverse a good deal of the damage chain... No std::'s?!? (sory had to! ) Goztow wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 16:55 ELiT3FLyR wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 17:50 hahaha spoonys not happy because someone else has more renepower than him. jelly can keep his server names, and u can keep ur -50% on ur ladder to even the scale. You = idiot. Remember, this is renforums, more idiots than renegade players Someone on IRC so, he claims the names were seized, implying that is bad, then he suggests they be seized, implying that would be good Sums it up? Spoony, have you ever considered that you get abuse because you're repetitive?
We've got 5 spots on the front page. The others we've loaned out. Why don't you go after nightma12 or someone who has about 10 nicks that are front page'rs? He's got a larger monopoly than Jelly does. You also said in a thread on Jelly that you wanted to start a server, but you'd need an a00 nick. This doesn't have anything to do with why you're starting this topic, does it? For your own personal gain Edit: Spelling
Mike Are you serious? Far more people agree to not have the point fix, so Jelly does not implement the pointfix. They accommodated their players wishes. If more people wanted the pointfix, I guarantee it would be on his servers.. No problem. Everyone at TT is fine with this. This needs to be repeated over and over and over again, apparently... Mike Jelly owns the names, no one has the right to take them away. TT does not own Renegade, and can not just take all of HIS names. Unfortunately Jelly took ALL the names, which specifically meant he would have the sole, unchallengeable right to choose whose servers you see when you log on. TT doesn't own Renegade, indeed. Yet its claim to authority is much better than Jelly's. Who owns Renegade? EA and XWIS seem to be the authorities here... shall we show them both this thread and see what they say? Hex wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 13:40 Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 11:05 I rather think you do. Please post a brief list of all the renegade communities in which you are a admin/moderator? me, I own n00bless, I also use the 003 nick and before you do your 'oh so thats why your saying this' you should know that 90% of my players are game spy users. Doesn't change anything at all, you're still benefiting from the situation, which reduces your credibility when you say it isn't a problem. Hex wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 13:40 Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 11:05 Firstly it matters now. Secondly can you explain for everyone exactly what "will" happen about server nicks? Be specific, please. I love the way you answer a question with a question so how about you answer my question instead of avoiding it like you always seem to do. I've asked more than once for you to explain exactly what will happen to the game listings. I simply don't know, and I don't think I'm the only one. You claim to know, so why don't you tell everybody right now? If you've evasive about this, then don't act like you ended the debate by saying "scripts will fix this" Hex wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 13:40 Someone on IRC so, he claims the names were seized, implying that is bad, then he suggests they be seized, implying that would be good Sums it up? It is true. The names WERE seized by an individual community, that has no greater claim upon them than any other renegade community. I am suggesting they be taken over by a group that has actually earned the trust of EA and XWIS, and that will be committed to using them fairly, without bias, and without the appalling reaction to criticism we have seen in this thread from the Jelly admins. TT's reaction to criticism has been impeccable compared to this.
Why are people even bothering to argue with him? Just let him do what he wants to do and contact who he wants, and beaver away behind my back doing what he wants to do, he wants his finger in as many pies as he can, and he'll do whatever he wants to get the pointsfix implemented on as mnay servers as possible. That's what this is about, the points fix and the fact we don't want it. His interest in hostnames has only popped up because he wants to get the points fix servers at the top seeing as we don't run it now. When we ran it for like 18 months he never mentioned host names when we had 5 servers up, now we have 3 which don't run the fix, it's suddenly a scandal of the highest magnitude..... Once he's gone crying to EA and xwis and most likely Gordon Brown, I'll do what I need to do. Until then just settle down and let him do his thing.
raven wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 13:45 We've got 5 spots on the front page. The others we've loaned out. Why don't you go after nightma12 or someone who has about 10 nicks that are front page'rs? He's got a larger monopoly than Jelly does. Please give a complete list of all the names Jelly controls (both the ones jelly servers use, and the ones jelly decides which other servers can use them) raven wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 13:45 You also said in a thread on Jelly that you wanted to start a server, but you'd need an a00 nick. This doesn't have anything to do with why you're starting this topic, does it? For your own personal gain No, for Renegade's gain. Removing one community's undeserved, unchallengeable strangehold on the game. It is interesting that this is finally the first time anybody says anything about my mentioning a00 names in the ladder thread. I said no new server has a hope of flourishing while you keep your monopoly. I would like to set up a TT ladder server, using the most strategic settings for Renegade (i.e. pointsfix, no start credits, no donate... in other words, the original Renegade gameplay settings!), but that is nothing whatsoever to do with "spoony's personal gain". The fact you try to claim it is is just another example of trying to belittle legitimate criticism of your dictatorship, and it makes your case weaker, not stronger.
1) I am a Jelly Moderator and an Exodus admin. 2) I am not speaking as a representative of Jelly or it's community. 3) Everything I say is my OWN, PERSONAL view. Not Jelly's. Now that's said, lets continue. Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 20:38 Crusade? You have an unchallengeable, undeserved monopoly on the game listings 1) I don't have the hostnames, Jelly has. 2) unchallengeable, yes. There's noone who can get higher then a00. 3) Undeserved? No. Jelly was FIRST to register the nickname, that makes him the owner of the domain name, and that gives him the right to do with it what he wants. Yes, he does own the highest nickname. So, that means he was smarter then other people by registering it first. Would you also rage at a company if they have a better business tactic then others? Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 20:38 Duhhh, because Jelly has registered ALL the top listings, so when you log in all you see is the Jelly servers and the servers Jelly currently favours. And, yet again, this means any new server has no hope of drawing players. So where is this undeserved? What has happened to the good old "First come, First serve"? So you are against the fact that the owner of a nickname has the right to choose who to give it to.. right? Isn't this the same as saying like "I know you have the best car out there man, but it's unfair that you let your friends drive in it, but you don't let me drive in it! Oh yeah, and I totally hate the wheels you have!" Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 20:38 They say who gets all the a00 names. They say who's top on the game listings. They say: all our servers go right at the top, and our friends come next, and if you cross us we'll take the name back, and if you don't like it you can fuck off. This is totalitarianism on a scale that dwarfs anything you can say about TT. All the a00 names? All the HIGH a00 names, yes. Not all. Secondly, like I said before, Jelly owns the nicknames. Why isn't he allowed to do with them whatever the fuck he wants? (See my previous example) Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 20:38 But in this case, you'd be registering MILLIONS of domain names, which meant that anyone trying to start a website would have to get your permission or it would have no chance of succeeding. But because I have purchased these domain names, paid for them and was the first one to register it, that STILL does NOT change the fact that I can do with it WHATEVER THE BLOODY FUCK I WANT. Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 20:38 Of course. TT agrees with this position, and so do I. (Although, many people on the anti-pointsfix side actually DO NOT agree with this position - they violently disagreed with my right to use the pointsfix in the clanwars league, which instantly destroys their creidibility) Clanwars league is YOUR problem, not mine, nor Jelly's. Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 20:38 No, it's not case closed, because Jelly keeps its monopoly over the game listings. And he has the right to keep that. Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 20:38 I'm not saying TT is about to say: "ok, we're gonna pull a jelly here, pointsfix is compulsory and if you don't like it you can fuck off". I'm saying that IF WE DID, you would see how wrong it was. You have the right to do that, but you have to keep in mind you have to keep the full community support. By doing that, you're not getting that. Jelly does not have to do anything. Jelly owns it, Jelly was the first, and Jelly has the full right to do with it what the bloody shit he wants.
Jellybe4n wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 19:49 most likely Gordon Brown Hes going to tax you on um!!
Jellybe4n wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 19:49 Why are people even bothering to argue with him? I'm certainly racking my brains, you and your admins make your case weaker with every post. Jellybe4n wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 19:49 Just let him do what he wants to do and contact who he wants, and beaver away behind my back doing what he wants to do, he wants his finger in as many pies as he can, and he'll do whatever he wants to get the pointsfix implemented on as mnay servers as possible. That's what this is about, the points fix and the fact we don't want it. His interest in hostnames has only popped up because he wants to get the points fix servers at the top seeing as we don't run it now. When we ran it for like 18 months he never mentioned host names when we had 5 servers up, now we have 3 which don't run the fix, it's suddenly a scandal of the highest magnitude..... Once he's gone crying to EA and xwis and most likely Gordon Brown, I'll do what I need to do. Y'know, jelly, there have been plenty of people on the anti-pointsfix side who've completely gone wrong over this whole thing, and decided that I'm the great satan when I've done absolutely nothing wrong to them. I didn't think you'd go this way too, I really didn't. But here's the simple fact of it: what I'm saying about your monopoly on the game listings is completely legitimate to say. When you and your admins try to belittle what is being said instead of actually defending your position, you make your case weaker, not stronger. You show everybody that you are not qualified to handle this power. You're throwing all these conspiracy theories about, concerning why I'm suddenly talking about this now? Gee, I dunno, maybe because I've been away from this game for a year to look after a relative with cancer. It's nothing to do with the pointsfix. I've done nothing wrong to you here, and when you come back to your senses I'll still consider you my friend, chris. Will
Prulez wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 13:57 1) I am a Jelly Moderator and an Exodus admin. 2) I am not speaking as a representative of Jelly or it's community. number two seems to be wishful thinking. Prulez wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 13:57 3) Undeserved? No. Jelly was FIRST to register the nickname, that makes him the owner of the domain name, and that gives him the right to do with it what he wants. so we come back once again to my original point. let's say EA said: "first person to reply to this thread gets authority to patch renegade!" and crimson got there first. this would mean TT could say: pointsfix is now compulsory, and there's nothing could you do about it. in jelly's words: "all i will say is you can fuck off". in your words: "that gives her the right to do with it what he wants" seriously imagine what i just said. if TT did this, don't you think everyone on jelly would be setting themselves on fire in rage? Prulez wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 13:57 But because I have purchased these domain names, paid for them and was the first one to register it, that STILL does NOT change the fact that I can do with it WHATEVER THE BLOODY FUCK I WANT. for the purposes of our example, you'd be getting them for free. Prulez wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 13:57 Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 20:38 Of course. TT agrees with this position, and so do I. (Although, many people on the anti-pointsfix side actually DO NOT agree with this position - they violently disagreed with my right to use the pointsfix in the clanwars league, which instantly destroys their creidibility) Clanwars league is YOUR problem, not mine, nor Jelly's. i think you don't follow me. TT's position is that each community can choose for itself whether to use the pointsfix. right? i agree with this. most of jelly say they agree with this. but when i actually tried using the pointsfix at clanwars, i was told that i WASN'T allowed to do that. it was sabotaged by a campaign of lies, manipulation and rigging polls, all done by a bunch of cheaters. and yet everyone who's looked at this situation has supported the cheaters who subverted the admin's decision, instead of supporting the admin himself. now, if you side with the cheaters instead of me, then don't go saying you agree with each community deciding for itself whether to use the pointsfix, because it just isn't true. if you really thought that, you'd be on my side all the way.
ELiT3FLyR wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 14:02 Renegade - the movie. Staring: spoony as Hitler the anti pointfix crowd as the jews and gypsies the renegade forums and TT as the guillable public jelly as rohm, an old friend spoony must kill off to achieve final domination. that's interesting, because right now i'm the one arguing AGAINST a undeserved totalitarian dictatorship, whereas the anti-pointsfix crowd and the jelly community (not much of a difference) are violently defending it. as for me killing jelly off, well, you were never that bright so i can't claim to be surprised you've got it exactly upside down yet again. me criticising jelly's monopoly on the game listings is no less valid than jelly criticising TT if they wanted to make the pointsfix compulsory.
Quote: Please give a complete list of all the names Jelly controls (both the ones jelly servers use, and the ones jelly decides which other servers can use them) a00 a000 a0000 a00000 a000000 a0000000 a00000002 a00000003 as far as I'm aware.
Half the entire top screen, then? Before this thread was started, I'd have said the jelly community deserves one on the top screen, no problem. After reading the replies from jelly the the other admins, after seeing the absolutely pathetic way they've responded to legitimate criticism of the power they wield over this game, I'm honestly not convinced anymore.
Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 14:59 Jellybe4n wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 19:49 Why are people even bothering to argue with him? I'm certainly racking my brains, you and your admins make your case weaker with every post. Jellybe4n wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 19:49 Just let him do what he wants to do and contact who he wants, and beaver away behind my back doing what he wants to do, he wants his finger in as many pies as he can, and he'll do whatever he wants to get the pointsfix implemented on as mnay servers as possible. That's what this is about, the points fix and the fact we don't want it. His interest in hostnames has only popped up because he wants to get the points fix servers at the top seeing as we don't run it now. When we ran it for like 18 months he never mentioned host names when we had 5 servers up, now we have 3 which don't run the fix, it's suddenly a scandal of the highest magnitude..... Once he's gone crying to EA and xwis and most likely Gordon Brown, I'll do what I need to do. Y'know, jelly, there have been plenty of people on the anti-pointsfix side who've completely gone wrong over this whole thing, and decided that I'm the great satan when I've done absolutely nothing wrong to them. I didn't think you'd go this way too, I really didn't. But here's the simple fact of it: what I'm saying about your monopoly on the game listings is completely legitimate to say. When you and your admins try to belittle what is being said instead of actually defending your position, you make your case weaker, not stronger. You show everybody that you are not qualified to handle this power. You're throwing all these conspiracy theories about, concerning why I'm suddenly talking about this now? Gee, I dunno, maybe because I've been away from this game for a year to look after a relative with cancer. It's nothing to do with the pointsfix. I've done nothing wrong to you here, and when you come back to your senses I'll still consider you my friend, chris. Will I registered them, we use them, we host good servers, people enjoy playing there. I've never made money from them even though I've had stupid offers to do so. We don't kick and ban people for stupid stuff. You seem to forget I tried the points fix for 18 months against some serious hostility, I wanted it to stay, I liked it, I still do. Thing is "my community" < -- key phrase here so take note, they didn't want it, they made it crystal clear they didn't want it. So to avoid being a dictator as you call me, I removed the fix at the request of the people who play in my server. We've done plenty to keep renegade active, we host good servers that are well moderated, we've played over 20 community matches over 5 years nearly against other communities, we organise internal tournaments between servers, we've had 1v1 tournaments open to anyone, 2v2 tournaments open to anyone. Yet despite all this I'm still the bad guy. If that's what you think Spoony there is not one thing i can say to you to change what you think, and what you're trying to get everyone else to think about me. That is why I said you can fuck off, because I'm comfortable with how I've conducted myself in the game, and if you don't like it, you can do as you please.
Here's the thing, we don't need to answer to you. That's it for me. I'm tired of debating something that won't even matter when TT is pushed.
Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 21:08 Prulez wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 13:57 1) I am a Jelly Moderator and an Exodus admin. 2) I am not speaking as a representative of Jelly or it's community. number two seems to be wishful thinking. I am very sorry that I am able to have my own opinion. Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 21:08 so we come back once again to my original point. let's say EA said: "first person to reply to this thread gets authority to patch renegade!" and crimson got there first. this would mean TT could say: pointsfix is now compulsory, and there's nothing could you do about it. in jelly's words: "all i will say is you can fuck off". in your words: "that gives her the right to do with it what he wants" seriously imagine what i just said. if TT did this, don't you think everyone on jelly would be setting themselves on fire in rage? Except that you are again comparing cows with horses. We are talking about nicknames here. It has been common practice on forums, irc, games, etc, that whoever registers a nickname first, owns it! The forum (lets just take the forum as an example!) however, can choose to restrict it by allowing 1 account per e-mail address. XWIS does this by allowing 9 nicknames per serial. Now, when you are saying it's unfair and so on, lets say I have the excellent idea to begin my own beer company (server)! I buy the tools to create my beer (dedicated server) and i begin brewing. Though, my veer is hardly being sold. This could be because of the supermarkets (XWIS listings) hardly showing my beer. Would you rage at those supermarkets aswell because you're beginning something that already is LOADED with other, already used products? Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 21:08 for the purposes of our example, you'd be getting them for free. Does it change the fact though that he was still the first, and he can STILL do what he wants with it? Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 21:08 i think you don't follow me. TT's position is that each community can choose for itself whether to use the pointsfix. right? i agree with this. most of jelly say they agree with this. but when i actually tried using the pointsfix at clanwars, i was told that i WASN'T allowed to do that. it was sabotaged by a campaign of lies, manipulation and rigging polls, all done by a bunch of cheaters. and yet everyone who's looked at this situation has supported the cheaters who subverted the admin's decision, instead of supporting the admin himself. So, then rage at them, ban them, whatever. You're pulling in something completely unrelated to the discussion at hand here. What the fuck does your bloody cw.cc league has to do with Jelly's high hostnames? Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 21:08 now, if you side with the cheaters instead of me, then don't go saying you agree with each community deciding for itself whether to use the pointsfix, because it just isn't true. if you really thought that, you'd be on my side all the way. Sure I agree with each community being able to choose what they want. That does not automatically mean that I will also rig polls etc. as you have claimed. Are you really thinking that every single person who is not completely in favor of your holy grail (Read: Pointsfix) is a cheater, liar, etc?
Tell you what, I'll host 2 x 40 player servers, one points fix and one standard, will that make you happy in your pants?
Jellybe4n wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 14:18 You seem to forget tried the points fix for 18 months, I wanted it to stay, I liked it, I still do. Thing is "my community" < -- key phrase here so take note, they didn't want it, they made it crystal clear they didn't want it. So to avoid being a dictator as you call me, I removed the fix at the request of the people who play in my server. I don't care whether you removed the pointsfix. You seem to want to reduce everything I've said to "spoony is only saying this because the pointsfix isn't there". Go look at my reaction to your announcement that the pointsfix was being removed; it was very courteous, i.e. nothing like the way your community always treats me. Jellybe4n wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 14:18 We've done plenty to keep renegade active, we host good servers that are well moderated, we've played over 20 community matches over 5 years nearly against other communities, we organise internal tournaments between servers, we've had 1v1 tournaments open to anyone, 2v2 tournaments open to anyone. Yeah, so? Why does this invalidate my criticism of your monopoly? I guess if I wanted to say: "pointsfix is being made compulsory now" and anybody spoke out against it, i could dismiss their criticism by saying "but i hosted a clan ladder for years!" Jellybe4n wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 14:18 Yet despite all this I'm still the bad guy. If that's what you think Spoony there is not one thing i can say to you to change what you think, and what you're trying to get everyone else to think about me. That is why I said you can fuck off, because I'm comfortable with how I've conducted myself in the game, and if you don't like it, you can do as you please. I am sure you will come to your senses. I did not set out to make you the "bad guy". I did not publicly attack you. I simply posted completely legitimate criticism of the monopoly you have on the game listings. You reacted by basically saying: fuck off, there's nothing you can do about it. Compare this to the incredible lengths I have gone to accommodate people who don't agree with me on the pointsfix; we've basically given them everything they wanted. You can't see the difference between my position and yours?
tellsson wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 06:59 i talked about the pointsystem only. glitches and bugs wich got patched are ok, but a pointsystem is somehow different, or?? No. The old point system was bugged. Getting 20 points for dealing 5 damage is a bug. It was not intended, and even if it was intended then my respect for Westwood is suddenly gone and I don't care what they intended. It's a bug. It's going to be fixed. This is why it's properly called a "Pointfix", since it's the equivalent of a patch (And would be if there was anyone around to patch it). That's also the reason why anyone who calls it a "Pointsmod" is a huge dicktree.
Jellybe4n wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 14:22 Tell you what, I'll host 2 x 40 player servers, one points fix and one standard, will that make you happy in your pants? I'm a little confused here, are you finally budging an inch (although remember, TT gave you everything you asked for) or are you just trying to get me to say yes so you can go HA!!!... it seems like you're still missing the point. here is the point. people say: if we want to use the points bug, we should be able to, we shouldn't need TT's or spoony's permission. ok, fine. i accept that. but if anyone wants a new server and they want it to have a hope of getting any players, they do need YOUR permission, and neither you nor any of your staff have said anything that justifies this. indeed anybody who challenges this situation gets treated with contempt! by stark contrast, when people criticised TT over the pointsfix, we went to incredible lengths to accommodate them. we tried several compromises, all of which were rejected. eventually we just decided to give them everything they wanted.
Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 15:25 Jellybe4n wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 14:18 You seem to forget tried the points fix for 18 months, I wanted it to stay, I liked it, I still do. Thing is "my community" < -- key phrase here so take note, they didn't want it, they made it crystal clear they didn't want it. So to avoid being a dictator as you call me, I removed the fix at the request of the people who play in my server. I don't care whether you removed the pointsfix. You seem to want to reduce everything I've said to "spoony is only saying this because the pointsfix isn't there". Go look at my reaction to your announcement that the pointsfix was being removed; it was very courteous, i.e. nothing like the way your community always treats me. Jellybe4n wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 14:18 We've done plenty to keep renegade active, we host good servers that are well moderated, we've played over 20 community matches over 5 years nearly against other communities, we organise internal tournaments between servers, we've had 1v1 tournaments open to anyone, 2v2 tournaments open to anyone. Yeah, so? Why does this invalidate my criticism of your monopoly? I guess if I wanted to say: "pointsfix is being made compulsory now" and anybody spoke out against it, i could dismiss their criticism by saying "but i hosted a clan ladder for years!" Jellybe4n wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 14:18 Yet despite all this I'm still the bad guy. If that's what you think Spoony there is not one thing i can say to you to change what you think, and what you're trying to get everyone else to think about me. That is why I said you can fuck off, because I'm comfortable with how I've conducted myself in the game, and if you don't like it, you can do as you please. I am sure you will come to your senses. I did not set out to make you the "bad guy". I did not publicly attack you. I simply posted completely legitimate criticism of the monopoly you have on the game listings. You reacted by basically saying: fuck off, there's nothing you can do about it. Compare this to the incredible lengths I have gone to accommodate people who don't agree with me on the pointsfix; we've basically given them everything they wanted. You can't see the difference between my position and yours? You never came to me directly about your issues, did you? why is that? You came out out all guns blazing on a public forum looking for support. You're clever enough to know thay when you come out on a public forum calling me a dicatator it's a pretty derisory comment, so don't play the mr nice guy card on me, you knew perfectly well what your approach was going to be.. I'm a pretty straight forward dude, you know me in person so you should know that, yet you couldn't come to me direct? what is with that? You'd have been suprised at the response I expect.
Jellybe4n wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 14:32 You never came to me directly about your issues, did you? why is that? You came out out all guns blazing on a public forum looking for support. Why say this publicly? I would've thought that was obvious. Because this is an important issue and it ought to be talked about openly, not by shady dealings behind closed doors like it's always been about up till now.
Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 15:27 Jellybe4n wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 14:22 Tell you what, I'll host 2 x 40 player servers, one points fix and one standard, will that make you happy in your pants? I'm a little confused here, are you finally budging an inch (although remember, TT gave you everything you asked for) or are you just trying to get me to say yes so you can go HA!!!... it seems like you're still missing the point. here is the point. people say: if we want to use the points bug, we should be able to, we shouldn't need TT's or spoony's permission. ok, fine. i accept that. but if anyone wants a new server and they want it to have a hope of getting any players, they do need YOUR permission, and neither you nor any of your staff have said anything that justifies this. indeed anybody who challenges this situation gets treated with contempt! by stark contrast, when people criticised TT over the pointsfix, we went to incredible lengths to accommodate them. we tried several compromises, all of which were rejected. eventually we just decided to give them everything they wanted. No, read my last post, it is something I've been thinking for a while. I like the fix, I never wanted it off. I did it to please the community. I've said numerous times to people I like the fix. If you'd come to me I would have told you about my thoughts on 2 x servers and ran that by you. But no, you came out here looking for a public flogging..
Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 15:35 Jellybe4n wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 14:32 You never came to me directly about your issues, did you? why is that? You came out out all guns blazing on a public forum looking for support. Why say this publicly? I would've thought that was obvious. Because this is an important issue and it ought to be talked about openly, not by shady dealings behind closed doors like it's always been about up till now. There's nothing shady about coming to me directly...
We do not appear to be noting the point of the topic, we're devolving into pointsfix related arguments, and this has nothing to do with that. This might be clearer if I had made the post, as I have no TT involvement, or "pointsfix-pushing" history etc etc etc. The question is: Why does Jelly (Yes, I know that he registered them first, let me finish) get to control the top half of the server listing? That puts the power of who gets the bulk of the newer players into their servers into Jelly's hands, new players make or break new communities. Why is Jelly responsible for that? (I feel I should point out I play at Jelly, and have done for some time, I was even on the temp list for a while) It's quite simple, why does the fact that Jelly was first to register the nicknames give him the right to decide who gets the bulk of new player influx. I wouldn't be asking if he registered the top two or three, he's got 7? 8? Jelly doesn't host that many servers, that appears, to me, disproportional. With NO mention of pointsfix please answer the question: Quote: Why does Jelly get to decide which (new) communities get the newer players? (My reasons for coming to the conclusion that newer players join the one of the first servers they see are too obvious to be typed out) Edit at Jelly himself, I think Spoony finds it "shady" that any deals relating to which servers get more exposure are carried out in private. Given that coming to you directly does not put the conversation into a public forum such as this one is what is irking Spoony, I would think.
Jellybe4n wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 14:35 No, read my last post, it is something I've been thinking for a while. I like the fix, I never wanted it off. I did it to please the community. I've said numerous times to people I like the fix. If you'd come to me I would have told you about my thoughts on 2 x servers and ran that by you. But no, you came out here looking for a public flogging.. You remember my thread called "thoughts on the ladder". from my first post: i also think that at some point there will be a server with the 'pure' strategic settings, perhaps TT will host it as the 'official' server for ladder play, or perhaps i'll do it independently (think SpoonySrv). basically so there is always somewhere for people to play for ladder, disregarding any current community bias and whatnot, and to prevent one community having a stranglehold on the ladder. (i'd need an a00 nick for that though. i'm sure i don't need to point out the futility of starting a new server without one.) i have actually wondered who to talk to about helping me run this, didn't i ask you? if you do wanna sort this out together, that would be great. it would be something of a compromise between our positions, but it wouldn't invalidate anything i've said about the listings... (and remember, TT basically gave the anti-pointsfix crowd EVERYTHING they wanted) Jellybe4n wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 14:35 There's nothing shady about coming to me directly... Interesting you think that. I wonder if I did say this to you privately and you said yes, what everyone else who wants an a00 name would think about the situation, knowing that you and I are renebuddies and friends in real life. You don't think people would see it as cronyism? They'd just see it as me trying to secure some benefit from myself out of a flawed system, instead of fixing the problem like TT probably ought to be doing. zell, read the thread, please, every single post especially mine, then come back and give your opinions when you actually know what we're talking about
why because i stand up for what i believe made this game great? i have told spoony plenty of times i enjoy renegade how it has always been the way it is still played i have tried to pointsfix and i did not enjoy it so much i told him this and he said its ok u have ur opinion and then he turns around and starts attacking the jelly community and jelly himself for having control of the a00 names? all this because jelly got the names first and spoony all of a sudden has every right to do w.e he wants with this game if all ur going to do is call me a moron without telling me what u disagree with u can just stfu and stay out of the topic and consider urself a moron
You know, I can't say I recall a clause in Renegade's license saying nicknames registered on the Westwood Online (XWIS) servers could be taken control of for the misguided purposes of an organization dedicated to improving the game using reverse engineered (and therefore illegal, although not so much with EA's approval) code...
ZeLL wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 15:01 why because i stand up for what i believe made this game great? i have told spoony plenty of times i enjoy renegade how it has always been the way it is still played i have tried to pointsfix and i did not enjoy it so much i told him this and he said its ok u have ur opinion ...so far so good ZeLL wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 15:01 and then he turns around and starts attacking the jelly community and jelly himself for having control of the a00 names? ...no. i'm not attacking the jelly community. i'm not attacking jelly himself. what i am doing is criticising the power they have but don't deserve. ZeLL wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 15:01 all this because jelly got the names first and spoony all of a sudden has every right to do w.e he wants with this game NO, NOT SPOONY. clearly somebody must have control over the names. if it isn't someone it'll be someone else. if someone has to have this authority, i am simply saying it is better in TT's hands (the group entrusted by EA and XWIS to patch the game) than in one individual community like jelly. this is nothing to do with me personally. back to your first post. ZeLL wrote i cant believe u say this shit about jelly and its community when jelly has alrdy said it its given everybody a place to play for years now jelly has even backed u up on the pointsfix and because he would like his community happy he chose to take it off he has been very open to helping you improve renegade and he has tried a few things to make renegade more enjoyable( such as the armour mods and the points fix) you start off so well... and then... ZeLL wrote why should everybody in renegade play the game the way u want it? ...you crash and burn. it's obvious you haven't read a single post of mine on the subject of the pointsfix. Roni wrote Spoony, Here is the cure for your itch. I already offered up my AOOOOOOOO nick for 10,000 usd or I can rent it to you or TT to host a server for 250 USD monthly with a down payment of 5000 usd. You can be right up there with Jelly and go head to head with this community if you want. You would be 5 names from the top. How about that!! This will help you break up Jelly's so called monopoly. If you are truly serious about getting a name up top for TT to advertise itself then I suggest you dig into your pocketbook and put your money where your mouth is... Roni This is probably the time to compare Jelly/a00 to TT/pointsfix again. So when you thought TT wanted to force the pointsfix on everybody, and you said that shouldn't happen... how about if we replied saying: "how much is it worth to you?" But no, we went to incredible lengths to accommodate your opinion despite your immaturity, we suggested plenty of compromises all of which you rejected, and eventually we just gave you everything you wanted. I'm gonna keep repeating this as often as I have to, i.e. every single time someone from Jelly or one of their beneficiaries acts like I'm out of line criticising their game listing monopoly.
Ethenal wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 21:08 You know, I can't say I recall a clause in Renegade's license saying nicknames registered on the Westwood Online (XWIS) servers could be taken control of for the misguided purposes of an organization dedicated to improving the game using reverse engineered (and therefore illegal, although not so much with EA's approval) code... Thus Spoony is asking why, rather than annoucing that he, TT or anyone else now have control of those nicknames...
CarrierII wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 15:10 Ethenal wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 21:08 You know, I can't say I recall a clause in Renegade's license saying nicknames registered on the Westwood Online (XWIS) servers could be taken control of for the misguided purposes of an organization dedicated to improving the game using reverse engineered (and therefore illegal, although not so much with EA's approval) code... Thus Spoony is asking why, rather than annoucing that he, TT or anyone else now have control of those nicknames... Sorry, I admit that I didn't read the entire thing because it's so far proved to be the same recycled bullshit that's come up repeatedly. At this point it seems to simply be ammunition in his pro-pointmod argument.
how doesnt he deserve the a00 names? hes offered servers for people to play in hes been a good factor in how renegade has kept alive by playing community wars hes opened tournaments open to anybody who signs up yes somebody should have control over the names hows about the person who made the names has control over them? i dont see u respecting anyones opinions about not liking the points fix i have accepted the -50% ladder crap u are throwing at jelly to try and get us to move to the points fix but because we do not want it even after that you start by trying to take the server owners names all because u believe people from TT patch who are associated with u( which tbh i dont feel is a very good idea considering if u ask the cw.cc community theyd have chosen jelly to lead cw.cc over u most likely, not trying to be offensive just what i believe and what other people have told me believe) im sorry but this is showing no respect for people who have enjoyed playing renegade the way it has always been played i get u believe that pointsfix would make things fairer etc its ur opinion gl with that but why on earth are u trying to destroy other communities which wont run the point fix by removing them from the games list? your not happy with putting jelly server players at a disadvantage by giving us only 50% ladder so you keep going on n on n on? theres a time where u have to say enough is enough
CarrierII wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 13:15 FURTHER IDIOTIC POSTING WILL RESULT IN A 24 HOUR BAN... Good. I totally agree; This thread needs to be cleaned and a lock would stop all the idiotic posti- ZeLL wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 13:21 how doesnt he deserve the a00 names? hes offered servers for people to play in hes been a good factor in how renegade has kept alive by playing community wars hes opened tournaments open to anybody who signs up yes somebody should have control over the names hows about the person who made the names has control over them? i dont see u respecting anyones opinions about not liking the points fix i have accepted the -50% ladder crap u are throwing at jelly to try and get us to move to the points fix but because we do not want it even after that you start by trying to take the server owners names all because u believe people from TT patch who are associated with u( which tbh i dont feel is a very good idea considering if u ask the cw.cc community theyd have chosen jelly to lead cw.cc over u most likely, not trying to be offensive just what i believe and what other people have told me believe) im sorry but this is showing no respect for people who have enjoyed playing renegade the way it has always been played i get u believe that pointsfix would make things fairer etc its ur opinion gl with that but why on earth are u trying to destroy other communities which wont run the point fix by removing them from the games list? your not happy with putting jelly server players at a disadvantage by giving us only 50% ladder so you keep going on n on n on? theres a time where u have to say enough is enough Uh-oh.
Back in for a second How does the pointsfix have nothing to do with the issue at hand? Read the damn topic...
ZeLL wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 15:21 how doesnt he deserve the a00 names? yes somebody should have control over the names hows about the person who made the names has control over them? because he made so many of them! because no new server has a chance of getting players unless jelly smiles upon it! ZeLL wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 15:21 i dont see u respecting anyones opinions about not liking the points fix then you aren't looking, end of story. we gave the anti-pointsfix crowd EVERYTHING THEY WANTED. ZeLL wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 15:21 i have accepted the -50% ladder crap u are throwing at jelly to try and get us to move to the points fix no, it's to make the ladder better. end of story. remember the ladder? i have the task of making it as good as it can be. i plan on doing this as good as i can. i've given plenty of reasons for the pointsbug ladder penalty, and you either haven't read my posts on the subject or you choose to mislead people again like you did about clanwars (i'll come back to that) ZeLL wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 15:21 which tbh i dont feel is a very good idea considering if u ask the cw.cc community theyd have chosen jelly to lead cw.cc over u most likely, not trying to be offensive just what i believe and what other people have told me believe) what do you mean "lead cw.cc"? ZeLL wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 15:21 i get u believe that pointsfix would make things fairer etc its ur opinion gl with that but why on earth are u trying to destroy other communities which wont run the point fix by removing them from the games list? I'M NOT. READ MY POSTS AND THEN COME BACK WHEN YOU KNOW WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. ZeLL wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 15:21 your not happy with putting jelly server players at a disadvantage by giving us only 50% ladder so you keep going on n on n on? actually the ladder penalty for the pointsbug doesn't look like it will make a difference, because jelly seems to have disconnected their own servers from the official ladder, and they did that BEFORE i posted about the ladder penalty. i don't know why they did that, i found it intriguing, i asked why 3 or 4 times and haven't got an answer yet. anyway, back to the point. here you are making all these wrong statements about my plans for the game listings and for the ladder. remember the last time you did this? you kept saying omg spoonys defending h2o. a quick fact check showed you were totally wrong... and again, you post all this nonsense without even reading the thread, without reading what i'm even saying. read my posts, THEN come back and give me your opinions on them. i don't care what you think about my ideas if you don't even know what they are.
Moderator's point:The lock is temporary so I can clean without further posts causing issues. My own point: You are correct, the pointsfix does have something to do with this, it does, however cause a large number of people to post things which are not related to both parts of the topic. Also, these posts are typically less than... useful. Could someone, preferably from Jelly, answer my post from page 3? The one about why Jelly gets to decide who gets new players... Moderator's point again: Strict moderation is on in this topic for the purposes of getting the discussion finished: THIS THREAD HAS ADDITIONAL RULES! READ CAREFULLY BEFORE POSTING! 1) Anything offtopic (posted after this post) will be removed and the offending individual will receive, at least, an official warning (These are used in deciding ban length etc, so try not to get them ) 2) Repetitive offenders will get a ban. I want this discussion to finish, and if that means I have to prevent certain people from participating, I will. I, at this point, remind you that should you feel my actions are excessive, complain to Crimson or Blazer via PM. 3) Please, avoid ad-hominem (That is, insulting people). It's against the forum rules anyway, and is excessive. Let's see if we can debate this properly now.
CarrierII wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 16:33 Moderator's point:The lock is temporary so I can clean without further posts causing issues. My own point: You are correct, the pointsfix does have something to do with this, it does, however cause a large number of people to post things which are not related to both parts of the topic. Also, these posts are typically less than... useful. Could someone, preferably from Jelly, answer my post from page 3? The one about why Jelly gets to decide who gets new players... Moderator's point again: Strict moderation is on in this topic for the purposes of getting the discussion finished: THIS THREAD HAS ADDITIONAL RULES! READ CAREFULLY BEFORE POSTING! 1) Anything offtopic (posted after this post) will be removed and the offending individual will receive, at least, an official warning (These are used in deciding ban length etc, so try not to get them ) 2) Repetitive offenders will get a ban. I want this discussion to finish, and if that means I have to prevent certain people from participating, I will. I, at this point, remind you that should you feel my actions are excessive, complain to Crimson or Blazer via PM. 3) Please, avoid ad-hominem (That is, insulting people). It's against the forum rules anyway, and is excessive. Let's see if we can debate this properly now. Answer to your question, fortune. Why do people who register company's called A1 get listed first in the yellow pages? Early bird catches the worm. Thing is though, apart from hurting a few server owners feelings, we don't do anything wrong. We don't allow cheats, we run good clean servers, and try our best to keep the community active by also involving other setups with comm games. We provide a good overall service and listen to the people who play in our servers. I'm happy with how we conduct ourselves. I have a compromise I may be willing to offer to the relevant people, but I aint doing it on here. I will chat to the TT people if they want to..
I agree that fortune should allow one player to get the nickname they want, but why should it dictate who gets to be on the top and get the new players. No one's disputing that you were clever in getting those names, but my question is why you have the right to that power, given that "fortune" is barely a justification. Your "fortune" has meant, as Spoony has said, the death of several good communities. Also, why the private discussion, I've gone to great lengths (And size 7 text) to get this thread into a state where this can be discussed. I, as a public member of the Renegade community, would like to see the discussion which would lead to some better "fortune" for those communities with no high nickname.
CarrierII wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 15:55 I agree that fortune should allow one player to get the nickname they want, but why should it dictate who gets to be on the top and get the new players. No one's disputing that you were clever in getting those names, but my question is why you have the right to that power, given that "fortune" is barely a justification. Your "fortune" has meant, as Spoony has said, the death of several good communities. Also, why the private discussion, I've gone to great lengths (And size 7 text) to get this thread into a state where this can be discussed. I, as a public member of the Renegade community, would like to see the discussion which would lead to some better "fortune" for those communities with no high nickname. Why does he have the right to that power? 'Cause first-come-first-served, bro. That's how it worked from the start.
CarrierII wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 15:55 Also, why the private discussion, I've gone to great lengths (And size 7 text) to get this thread into a state where this can be discussed. I, as a public member of the Renegade community, would like to see the discussion which would lead to some better "fortune" for those communities with no high nickname. Simple, it doesn't concern anyone but the administration of Jelly (in this case, Jelly himself) and the administration of TT.
Why does that give him the arbitrary right to pick which communities live? (Yes, it really is that dramatic, look at BC, for example) The point is that at any point, any server can be consigned to a lower ranking because Jelly wants to (Not that he has done that, AFAIK, and if he has, I don't want that to become a part of this thread. Take it elsewhere, let us assume for now he hasn't) and that alone is not fair. First come first served doesn't justify the control over which communities get to have players. That's like saying whoever is older gets to have the top spots... first come first served is not a mandate to any power. Hence stable, democratic societies. I think it does concern the playing public, Raven, it makes a big difference to them.
CarrierII wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 16:02 Why does that give him the arbitrary right to pick which communities live? (Yes, it really is that dramatic, look at BC, for example) The point is that at any point, any server can be consigned to a lower ranking because Jelly wants to (Not that he has done that, AFAIK, and if he has, I don't want that to become a part of this thread. Take it elsewhere, let us assume for now he hasn't) and that alone is not fair. First come first served doesn't justify the control over which communities get to have players. That's like saying whoever is older gets to have the top spots... first come first served is not a mandate to any power. Hence stable, democratic societies. Except it was a matter of registering nicknames to play an online multiplayer game with, not with which to construct empires. I agree that it sucks to get the short end of the straw, but Jelly used entirely legitimate channels to get to where he has; why should anybody receive the right to reverse that?
raven wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 14:00 Simple, it doesn't concern anyone but the administration of Jelly (in this case, Jelly himself) and the administration of TT. You're right. Those are the only people any such discussion would affect. It definitely wouldn't have an effect on anybody else, or on the community as a whole. That's why decisions on other issues like pointfix should be taken solely by the TT administration, with no input from the community as a whole. Oh wait...
Dover wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 16:05 raven wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 14:00 Simple, it doesn't concern anyone but the administration of Jelly (in this case, Jelly himself) and the administration of TT. You're right. Those are the only people any such discussion would affect. It definitely wouldn't have an effect on anybody else, or on the community as a whole. That's why decisions on other issues like pointfix should be taken solely by the TT administration, with no input from the community as a whole. Oh wait... It would be in any case his decision and his only, so it does not infact require any community input. Smart ass.
Dover wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 16:26 CarrierII wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 13:15 FURTHER IDIOTIC POSTING WILL RESULT IN A 24 HOUR BAN... Good. I totally agree; This thread needs to be cleaned and a lock would stop all the idiotic posti- ZeLL wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 13:21 how doesnt he deserve the a00 names? hes offered servers for people to play in hes been a good factor in how renegade has kept alive by playing community wars hes opened tournaments open to anybody who signs up yes somebody should have control over the names hows about the person who made the names has control over them? i dont see u respecting anyones opinions about not liking the points fix i have accepted the -50% ladder crap u are throwing at jelly to try and get us to move to the points fix but because we do not want it even after that you start by trying to take the server owners names all because u believe people from TT patch who are associated with u( which tbh i dont feel is a very good idea considering if u ask the cw.cc community theyd have chosen jelly to lead cw.cc over u most likely, not trying to be offensive just what i believe and what other people have told me believe) im sorry but this is showing no respect for people who have enjoyed playing renegade the way it has always been played i get u believe that pointsfix would make things fairer etc its ur opinion gl with that but why on earth are u trying to destroy other communities which wont run the point fix by removing them from the games list? your not happy with putting jelly server players at a disadvantage by giving us only 50% ladder so you keep going on n on n on? theres a time where u have to say enough is enough Uh-oh. u should probaly ban this nerd for doing nothing but just sitting on his thumb all day calling other people stupid Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 16:31 ZeLL wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 15:21 how doesnt he deserve the a00 names? yes somebody should have control over the names hows about the person who made the names has control over them? because he made so many of them! because no new server has a chance of getting players unless jelly smiles upon it! ZeLL wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 15:21 i dont see u respecting anyones opinions about not liking the points fix then you aren't looking, end of story. we gave the anti-pointsfix crowd EVERYTHING THEY WANTED. ZeLL wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 15:21 i have accepted the -50% ladder crap u are throwing at jelly to try and get us to move to the points fix no, it's to make the ladder better. end of story. remember the ladder? i have the task of making it as good as it can be. i plan on doing this as good as i can. i've given plenty of reasons for the pointsbug ladder penalty, and you either haven't read my posts on the subject or you choose to mislead people again like you did about clanwars (i'll come back to that) ZeLL wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 15:21 which tbh i dont feel is a very good idea considering if u ask the cw.cc community theyd have chosen jelly to lead cw.cc over u most likely, not trying to be offensive just what i believe and what other people have told me believe) what do you mean "lead cw.cc"? ZeLL wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 15:21 i get u believe that pointsfix would make things fairer etc its ur opinion gl with that but why on earth are u trying to destroy other communities which wont run the point fix by removing them from the games list? I'M NOT. READ MY POSTS AND THEN COME BACK WHEN YOU KNOW WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. ZeLL wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 15:21 your not happy with putting jelly server players at a disadvantage by giving us only 50% ladder so you keep going on n on n on? actually the ladder penalty for the pointsbug doesn't look like it will make a difference, because jelly seems to have disconnected their own servers from the official ladder, and they did that BEFORE i posted about the ladder penalty. i don't know why they did that, i found it intriguing, i asked why 3 or 4 times and haven't got an answer yet. anyway, back to the point. here you are making all these wrong statements about my plans for the game listings and for the ladder. remember the last time you did this? you kept saying omg spoonys defending h2o. a quick fact check showed you were totally wrong... and again, you post all this nonsense without even reading the thread, without reading what i'm even saying. read my posts, THEN come back and give me your opinions on them. i don't care what you think about my ideas if you don't even know what they are. like i said ive read ur reasons for the pointsbug ladder penalty and i told u before ive accepted the 50% ladder but i dont believe u should have the right to strip away jellys servers just to replace them with servers which have points fix all ur doing is trying to eliminate the current point systems servers this is why i do not agree with what ur saying and trying to accomplish i think if jelly gets the names first hes entitled to keep them and do whatever he wishes by leading cw.cc i meant become the admin of it and run the league sorry wasnt clear about it ive alrdy told u about the h2o thing i read ur topic i believed what u was saying was defending h2o but when u explained i got it, i dont see why u had to bring this up it has nothing to do with this situation its just once again u always resort to this kind of crap in some way to try and attempt to get into a fight with him if u seriously want to make everything clear not only to me but others aswell maybe u should try not to get a rise out of people and talk to them like people. if u did this in the first place u wouldnt have made such a ridiculous topic and u n jelly wouldve most likely came to some sort of conclusion or something fair everybody knows jelly is a reasonable person to talk to. even u have to admit u was wrong to speak publicly about this
@ Ethanal: No one's forcibly reversing that, if they were, I doubt they'd have made a topic, they'd have just done it. We're trying to prove that, as no one is forcibly reversing anything, the fact that Jelly owns so many names is not exactly fair on new communities or any he may take a hypothetical dislike to, and thus this topic is also a request to Jelly to consider that. (The pointsfix is involved, as Jelly does not, for reasons that have no bearing on this thread, use the pointsfix, and Spoony would like a Pointsfix, 0 Start credits etc etc server somewhere towards the top of the listings) @ Dover, NO IMAGE MACROS. FFS. @ Zell. Moderator me says: No ad-hominem please, I want a proper discussion. I say (Also @Zell): Spoony is simply trying to lower the degree of control Jelly has. Not remove Jelly from the top of the list. Doing so would be idiotic in the extreme.
Ethenal wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 14:07 Dover wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 16:05 raven wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 14:00 Simple, it doesn't concern anyone but the administration of Jelly (in this case, Jelly himself) and the administration of TT. You're right. Those are the only people any such discussion would affect. It definitely wouldn't have an effect on anybody else, or on the community as a whole. That's why decisions on other issues like pointfix should be taken solely by the TT administration, with no input from the community as a whole. Oh wait... It would be in any case his decision and his only, so it does not infact require any community input. Smart ass. You're right! And I'm agreeing with you! That's why TT should say "Fuck you!" to the anti-pointfix crowd and do whatever they're going to do anyway, since it's their project and their decision only, so it does not infact require any community input. I'm glad we're on the same page. It's so nice to meet another community member who support mandatory pointfix!
Dover wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 16:09 Ethenal wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 14:07 Dover wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 16:05 raven wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 14:00 Simple, it doesn't concern anyone but the administration of Jelly (in this case, Jelly himself) and the administration of TT. You're right. Those are the only people any such discussion would affect. It definitely wouldn't have an effect on anybody else, or on the community as a whole. That's why decisions on other issues like pointfix should be taken solely by the TT administration, with no input from the community as a whole. Oh wait... It would be in any case his decision and his only, so it does not infact require any community input. Smart ass. You're right! And I'm agreeing with you! That's why TT should say "Fuck you!" to the anti-pointfix crowd and do whatever they're going to do anyway, since it's their project and their decision only, so it does not infact require any community input. I'm glad we're on the same page. It's so nice to meet another community member who support mandatory pointfix! Only difference: those nicknames belong to Jelly and Jelly only, but TT's right to push their patch is required by EA to have community support. Try again.
Ethenal wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 14:11 Dover wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 16:09 Ethenal wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 14:07 Dover wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 16:05 raven wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 14:00 Simple, it doesn't concern anyone but the administration of Jelly (in this case, Jelly himself) and the administration of TT. You're right. Those are the only people any such discussion would affect. It definitely wouldn't have an effect on anybody else, or on the community as a whole. That's why decisions on other issues like pointfix should be taken solely by the TT administration, with no input from the community as a whole. Oh wait... It would be in any case his decision and his only, so it does not infact require any community input. Smart ass. You're right! And I'm agreeing with you! That's why TT should say "Fuck you!" to the anti-pointfix crowd and do whatever they're going to do anyway, since it's their project and their decision only, so it does not infact require any community input. I'm glad we're on the same page. It's so nice to meet another community member who support mandatory pointfix! Only difference: those nicknames belong to Jelly and Jelly only, but TT's right to push their patch is required by EA to have community support. Try again. And TT's project is their sole property. What difference does it make that the results of that project will be used by others? Jelly's servers are used by people other than him. They're even occasionally used by people who don't consider themselves part of the Jelly community (Like myself). Jelly's server is his sole property = cool. TT's project is their sole intelectual property = great Jelly's server is used by other people who aren't Jelly or Jelly-affiliated = Awesome TT's project will be used by people outside TT = ???
Dover wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 16:14 Ethenal wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 14:11 Dover wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 16:09 Ethenal wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 14:07 Dover wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 16:05 raven wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 14:00 Simple, it doesn't concern anyone but the administration of Jelly (in this case, Jelly himself) and the administration of TT. You're right. Those are the only people any such discussion would affect. It definitely wouldn't have an effect on anybody else, or on the community as a whole. That's why decisions on other issues like pointfix should be taken solely by the TT administration, with no input from the community as a whole. Oh wait... It would be in any case his decision and his only, so it does not infact require any community input. Smart ass. You're right! And I'm agreeing with you! That's why TT should say "Fuck you!" to the anti-pointfix crowd and do whatever they're going to do anyway, since it's their project and their decision only, so it does not infact require any community input. I'm glad we're on the same page. It's so nice to meet another community member who support mandatory pointfix! Only difference: those nicknames belong to Jelly and Jelly only, but TT's right to push their patch is required by EA to have community support. Try again. And TT's project is their sole property. What difference does it make that the results of that project will be used by others? Jelly's servers are used by people other than him. They're even occasionally used by people who don't consider themselves part of the Jelly community (Like myself). Jelly's server is his sole property = cool. TT's project is their sole intelectual property = great Jelly's server is used by other people who aren't Jelly or Jelly-affiliated = Awesome TT's project will be used by people outside TT = ??? The difference is that EA requires that TT's project's results must be approved by the collective of the community. They can happily release it however they want to, but then the people that manually download it agree to the terms of the project. If EA pushes it, then they're forced to agree. On the otherhand, it says nowhere that nicknames registered on WOL are public domain. Jelly can do whatever he wants with them regardless of whether they affect the rest of the community, because nobody said he couldn't (nobody that mattered, anyway). EDIT: Whoa there, nobody was talking about Jelly's server. Just his nicknames.
CarrierII wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 16:09 @ Ethanal: No one's forcibly reversing that, if they were, I doubt they'd have made a topic, they'd have just done it. We're trying to prove that, as no one is forcibly reversing anything, the fact that Jelly owns so many names is not exactly fair on new communities or any he may take a hypothetical dislike to, and thus this topic is also a request to Jelly to consider that. (The pointsfix is involved, as Jelly does not, for reasons that have no bearing on this thread, use the pointsfix, and Spoony would like a Pointsfix, 0 Start credits etc etc server somewhere towards the top of the listings) Yes, but wouldn't that be the hypothetical solution were people to agree it was unfair to other communities?
Ethenal wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 22:11 Dover wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 16:09 Ethenal wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 14:07 Dover wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 16:05 raven wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 14:00 Simple, it doesn't concern anyone but the administration of Jelly (in this case, Jelly himself) and the administration of TT. You're right. Those are the only people any such discussion would affect. It definitely wouldn't have an effect on anybody else, or on the community as a whole. That's why decisions on other issues like pointfix should be taken solely by the TT administration, with no input from the community as a whole. Oh wait... It would be in any case his decision and his only, so it does not infact require any community input. Smart ass. You're right! And I'm agreeing with you! That's why TT should say "Fuck you!" to the anti-pointfix crowd and do whatever they're going to do anyway, since it's their project and their decision only, so it does not infact require any community input. I'm glad we're on the same page. It's so nice to meet another community member who support mandatory pointfix! Only difference: those nicknames belong to Jelly and Jelly only, but TT's right to push their patch is required by EA to have community support. Try again. Your argument is that there is no higher authority, so that there is no obligation at all to do anything? Nice morals. (Not a personal comment, just pointing out that those should always be present) Edit, I would hope that logic, common sense, morals and politeness could factor in creating a decision with no need for any authority wielding.
CarrierII wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 16:21 Ethenal wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 22:11 Dover wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 16:09 Ethenal wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 14:07 Dover wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 16:05 raven wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 14:00 Simple, it doesn't concern anyone but the administration of Jelly (in this case, Jelly himself) and the administration of TT. You're right. Those are the only people any such discussion would affect. It definitely wouldn't have an effect on anybody else, or on the community as a whole. That's why decisions on other issues like pointfix should be taken solely by the TT administration, with no input from the community as a whole. Oh wait... It would be in any case his decision and his only, so it does not infact require any community input. Smart ass. You're right! And I'm agreeing with you! That's why TT should say "Fuck you!" to the anti-pointfix crowd and do whatever they're going to do anyway, since it's their project and their decision only, so it does not infact require any community input. I'm glad we're on the same page. It's so nice to meet another community member who support mandatory pointfix! Only difference: those nicknames belong to Jelly and Jelly only, but TT's right to push their patch is required by EA to have community support. Try again. Your argument is that there is no higher authority, so that there is no obligation at all to do anything? Nice morals. (Not a personal comment, just pointing out that those should always be present) Except morals aren't a factor if we're questioning the fairness of the situation now are they?
Ethenal wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 14:19 Dover wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 16:14 Ethenal wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 14:11 Dover wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 16:09 Ethenal wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 14:07 Dover wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 16:05 raven wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 14:00 Simple, it doesn't concern anyone but the administration of Jelly (in this case, Jelly himself) and the administration of TT. You're right. Those are the only people any such discussion would affect. It definitely wouldn't have an effect on anybody else, or on the community as a whole. That's why decisions on other issues like pointfix should be taken solely by the TT administration, with no input from the community as a whole. Oh wait... It would be in any case his decision and his only, so it does not infact require any community input. Smart ass. You're right! And I'm agreeing with you! That's why TT should say "Fuck you!" to the anti-pointfix crowd and do whatever they're going to do anyway, since it's their project and their decision only, so it does not infact require any community input. I'm glad we're on the same page. It's so nice to meet another community member who support mandatory pointfix! Only difference: those nicknames belong to Jelly and Jelly only, but TT's right to push their patch is required by EA to have community support. Try again. And TT's project is their sole property. What difference does it make that the results of that project will be used by others? Jelly's servers are used by people other than him. They're even occasionally used by people who don't consider themselves part of the Jelly community (Like myself). Jelly's server is his sole property = cool. TT's project is their sole intelectual property = great Jelly's server is used by other people who aren't Jelly or Jelly-affiliated = Awesome TT's project will be used by people outside TT = ??? The difference is that EA requires that TT's project's results must be approved by the collective of the community. They can happily release it however they want to, but then the people that manually download it agree to the terms of the project. If EA pushes it, then they're forced to agree. On the otherhand, it says nowhere that nicknames registered on WOL are public domain. Jelly can do whatever he wants with them regardless of whether they affect the rest of the community, because nobody said he couldn't (nobody that mattered, anyway). EA hasn't rejected the project yet, and all signs point that they'll give the go-ahead since it'll get the Renegade community off their back, at least temporarily. If EA were to voice some kind of concern with the direction TT was taking, you might have a point here. But as it is they don't give two shits about us.