Command and Conquer: Renegade Official Forums - RDF feed
C&C: Renegade --> Dying since 2003™, resurrected in 2024!
GrimmNL wrote on Wed, 30 September 2009 21:59 oh wow, that's quite the list there. one question though. jonwil wrote on Wed, 30 September 2009 08:43 Toggle Spoiler Now using windows minidump crashdumps for debug information Fixed many bugs Complete overhaul of shader system Rewrite of many parts of the graphics system to remove all vestiges of the old DX8 bits. 4.0 doesn't have any of the bugs and slowdowns and problems that plagued 3.4.4 Fixed a number of bugs in various scripts Changed JFW_Jetpack and JFW_Jetpack_Model to play an animation on the object as well as changing the model Corrected many issues in the HUD and custom HUD code Renamed bhs.dll to tt.dll Changed all names mentioning bhs (readmes, logs etc) to mention TT instead Rewrote many hacks and crappy pieces of code Make the custom sniper scope work more like the stock renegade sniper scope Started using the latest version of visual C++ (2008 currently) Rewrote the memory manager to be faster and cleaner (and to produce more debugging info on debug builds) Changed the way we hook into renegade (and call renegade functions and access renegade variables) to be faster and cleaner. New scripts JFW_Set_Info_Texture and JFW_Clear_Info_Texture to use the "info texture" feature of tt.dll New script JFW_Set_Time_Custom and JFW_Set_Time_Limit_Custom to change the time and time limit New script JFW_C4_Sound_2 which is the same as JFW_C4_Sound except it wont play if the C4 does no damage. New script JFW_C4_Explode which triggers an explosion when a C4 is planted by a certain object New script JFW_3D_Sound_Custom_2 which plays a 3d sound on custom New script JFW_Send_Self_Custom_On_Key which sends a custom to the object its attached to when a key is pressed New script JFW_Empty_Vehicle_Timer which will destroy an empty vehicle if it remains empty for a certain period of time Fixed bug where weapons with infinate ammo (such as the pistol) dont start loaded Fix bug where damage code miscalculates points in some cases Toggle Spoiler Fixed the invisible C4 problem on maps like Glacier Flying Changed all projects to use precompiled headers for system includes and global definitions Fixed repair bay on Glacier Flying and other such maps to work correctly Fixed bug where if the nod power plant is down and the harvester is destroyed, the new harvester is spawned invisible Changed weapon selection so that weapon cycle skips empty weapons Lots of ladder fixes (as far as I am aware ladders work fine 100% now) Stealth improvements (so it doesnt glitch up when you are stealthed and then unstealth for example) Netcode improvements Support for using the 2 side buttons (i.e. buttons 4 and 5) on mice with 5 buttons. You can use them in any place you can use the normal mouse buttons Removed linux FDS support (makes developing 4.0 much easier and cleaner) Cleaned up screenshot code to eliminate screenshot lag and to work better in windowed mode New script Reborn_IsDeployableTank_2 which is a clone of Reborn_IsDeployableTank but doesnt change the weapons at all Various optimizations to make 4.0 faster Remove support for shader plugins Make screenshots output to a more sane location and with a more sane filename convention Eliminate all support for tga screenshots New script JFW_Custom_Send_Random_Custom which, on receipt of a custom, sends a custom to another object if a random percentage is less than a certain percentage Fix some bugs in JFW_Message_Send_xxx scripts Add a new feature to display the contents of a text file for a player (intended for e.g. objectives display). Add new script JFW_Custom_Objectives_Dlg for the above feature. Make spawn locations (including powerups and players) more random Fix for bluehell Method to change the player limit at runtime Add feature so that the team, battlefield and server information dialogs have working scrollbars Fixes to the PT dialogs Improvements to the ExpVehFac scripts fix so that standing right next to the WF wont cause your vehicle to get destroyed by mistake Fix for joining the server after game over Starting credits fix Fix for PT not working on rejoin Fix for C4 disappearing when stuck to a vehicle Move various hud.ini keywords into tt.ini so that we can cheat check tt.ini. hud.ini contains the custom HUD stuff and the dialog box stuff. Improved anti-cheat that checks sensitive files and does other good stuff. Will not have any of the problems of RenGuard but WILL check all 3d models, among other things. Moved damage calculation to the server for anti-cheat purposes. change Chat_Hook and Host_Hook so that they can veto sending of the message to the client(s) Fixes for RA_Helipad_Zone to make it harder to exploit by bobbing up and down in it Fix JFW_Health_Regen and JFW_Armour_Regen to not repair dead objects Fix definition of JFW_PT_Disable and JFW_PT_Disable_Death Add some scripts by campa Improve particle rendering (we have plans for a shader/GPU based particle renderer in the future) Added more debug code in netcode, graphics and elsewhere New console commands for shader debugging Renamed "BHS.dll options" to "Extended Options" Shader detail sliders on "Extended Options" dialog New script JFW_Heal_Zone_2 which is like JFW_Heal_Zone but which only heals for a specific preset Disable Toggle_Sorting console command Fix so you cant use a PT from inside a vehicle Fix so that proximity C4 wont detonate if placed next to dead enemy soldiers Fixes to AGT and obelisk scripts to fix obelisk walk and other bugs Fix client showing/switching to weapons they dont own Fix various memory leaks add tt.ini keyword DisableVehicleFlipKill, set this to true to disable vehicles from being blown up when flipped over HUD console command now hides all hud elements Replace bandtest.dll with a new dll from us that contains what used to be in d3d8.dll (those bits we didnt replace) and other code we need to load early. Load shaders.dll from bandtest.dll Make sure sniper scope is only turned on for the weapons it should be Fixes to make renegade run better on windows Vista/server 2008/Windows 7 including working correctly in limited user mode Removed SH_FileVerificationControllerScript script Do not load mix files for maps other than stock maps unless the map is loaded (faster loading for people with lots of maps) New tt.ini keyword MapPrefix to set the map prefix (for mods) Fix JFW_Vehicle_Lock to not lock the vehicle if there is someone in it Fix JFW_Escort_Poke script Fog related changes and improvements Fix parameters for JFW_Custom_Send_Custom and JFW_Custom_Send_Random_Custom Disabled WOL quick match (as its been broken since forever) add hud.ini keywords to change the weapon chart image colors Change the way the advanced game listing is sorted to properly support favorites and stuff Force shadow size to be power of 2 New script JFW_Custom_Multiple_Send_Custom_2 Fix up turret lag fix code Fix sniper lag Changed 4.0 to not use std:: classes and headers anywhere Updated to use a newer d3dx dll Code to give players custom tags with a server console command to set the tag A bunch of fixes for widescreen resolutions Add some scripts by Danpaul88 including scripts for AR Fix to send max health/shield over the network Fix bug with secondary fire using wrong muzzle Fixed Test_Cinematic Changed some dialogs to not hardcoded the team names anymore (team select dialog e.g.) Support mouse wheel in the sidebar Added some scripts from Zunnie Added some scripts used by RolePlay2 hud.ini keywords to set various dialog colors not previously settable More netcode crash/exploit fixes (i.e. places where bad packets could crash the code) added anti-stealth-hack code New script JFW_Custom_Spawn_Zone to spawn a zone on custom Change RA_Credit_Theft_Zone to not trigger if the thief is in a vehicle Add engine call to change default presets for GDI/nod New script JFW_Spawn_Zone_Created to spawn a zone on create Made APB Mad tank script ignore friendly base defenses Made APB nuke silo terminal script trigger the "you dont have the required security to access this terminal" dialog if the enemy accesses it New script RA_Base_Defense_Chargeup which is for weapons that charge up (Telsa coil) Make RA_Base_Defence_Powered properly check that the power is enabled Make gap generator script check power before working New script JFW_Submarine for subs in APB New script JFW_Water_Level for water level for JFW_Submarine Make APB AA base defence scripts not target subs New scripts JFW_Repair_Zone_Boats, JFW_Repair_Zone_No_Boats and JFW_Boat to deal with naval units only repairing at naval yards and non naval units only repairing at repair bays Fixes to make 4.0 work better under PIX Make spy power plant zone bring radar down New script JFW_Radar_Low_Power to make radar go down when power goes down All dlls now use the DLL version of the CRT Upgraded to newer libpng and zlib versions New script RA_Conyard_Controller_Improved_2 hud.ini keywords to change the geometry detail limits Add base defence scripts that ignore stealth Make fire0anim and fire1anim fields for vehicles work New script JFW_Vehicle_Visible_Weapon which basically sets the animation frame for the vehicle to the number of bullets in the gun (e.g. for vehicles with rockets or missiles visible on them) New feature where vehicles remain teamed when player leaves (intended to solve an exploit where people get out just before the vehicle dies to deny the other side points) Add tt.ini keyword to make the above feature optional Add hook so that you can hook into the Think pathway (and run something every frame) Add tt.ini keyword to change draw distance A bunch of spy fixes (to make spies better) Beginnings of new resource downloader, auto-map-downloader etc Beginnings of totally new SSGM Support more texture formats in dds files Removed swap scores on game end if the losing team is out of players. Fix XWIS delay on .pkg files Added possibility for players to send messages to the host by typing "/host <message>". New script JFW_Radar_Jammer_Sound for radar jammer sound Fix radar jammer scripts Fix RA_Damaged_Credits Make spies get the allied ore dump Fix JFW_Pilot_Repair New script JFW_Model_Animation C4 no longer gets defused when the owner leaves the game Added KICK2 console command to force-kick a player New script JFW_Startup_Custom_Self Add tt.ini keywords to disable nuke and ion beacon weather effects Add tt.ini keyword to disable reload when weapon is empty New script JFW_Moon_Is_Earth and functionality. This will cause the moon code to read texture named fullearth and partearth instead of fullmoon and partmoon. For maps that are set on the moon Fix JFW_2D_Sound_Damage Change to not reload a weapon when the weapon is full already New scripts JFW_Set_Skin_Custom, JFW_Set_Armor_Custom, JFW_Message_Send_Powerup, JFW_Soldier_Powerup, JFW_Vehicle_Regen_3 New script JFW_Points_Custom New hud.ini keyword to change the decal limit hud functionality to display the center bullet and health counts seperate from the rest of the HUD. hud.ini keyword to disable this new object Feature to store registry keys and data files (logs, thu files, screenshots, crashdumps etc etc) in locations that non-admin users can write to. Hack wolapi.dll to read and write from above locations Hack game to load wolapi.dll from local ren folder Hack LE to load new ttle.dll file Added "worst FPS" diagnostic Send serial hash over the network for possible ban use Various fixes connected to vehicles with damage meshes and damage caused on the FDS Change RA conyard script to repair less if power is low new tt.ini keyword that will allow PTs marked with the regular "I am a PT object" flag to load the sidebar instead of the PT Add build date for scripts to the crashdumps Make QUIT and EXIT console commands do the same thing. On client they will do what EXIT does now, on FDS they will do what QUIT does now Make sidebar/PT dialogs close if the soldier using them is killed Removed BAN, KICK and ALLOW console functions, to be replaced with something better later New custom ConstructionYardGameObj object for a construction yard building controler Added new PT pages for air and naval (to be used by the new building controllers that are being done) Change how PT data is sent over the network to make it use less bandwidth and to suck less New script RA_Credit_Theft_Zone_Timer for adding a timer before the thief can steal Added option to disable audio when renegade does not have focus Removed bandwidth-based player limits. does that mean 'the' pointfix? anyway, keep up the good work Yes, it does mean 'the' pointfix.
Re: Details of some of the features in 4.0
Spoony wrote on Wed, 30 September 2009 17:29 finally in regard to the pointsfix, how exactly will this work in regard to servers that don't want to use it? I think servers that run RR can calculate points the way they want to because Atomix does all you need is the proper scripts. The only reason the "pointsfix" will cause a problem is because people that play clanwars put alot of strategy into playing w/o it. (E.g. Shooting harvy, sniping stanks, tank fighting(not 100% sure this is effected though))
no pointsfix mandatory please...this patch could have one function...disable *cheat name removed*and ban anyone from renegade that tries to load it...and it would save the game
If it takes over a year extra to add Linux support.. there's something horribly wrong with the way you're coding it.
Quote: The pointsfix, for now its mandatory (and as far as I know it will remain so during the beta test cycle of 4.0) why are you going back on what was said before with the pointmod going to be a serverside option? it's clearly a bug but people seem to like the option of playing bugged renegade, so don't just take that away from them after 7+ years of playing it that way we've been through this many times
liquidv2 wrote on Wed, 30 September 2009 22:27 Quote: The pointsfix, for now its mandatory (and as far as I know it will remain so during the beta test cycle of 4.0) why are you going back on what was said before with the pointmod going to be a serverside option? it's clearly a bug but people seem to like the option of playing bugged renegade, so don't just take that away from them after 7+ years of playing it that way we've been through this many times Hi, yeah.
Although I support pointsfix, making it mandatory is just asking for trouble. Can't it just be on as a default, and be able to be switched off if a community desires?
I wonder if people realize that the majority of Renegaders are either unaware of the points problem still or want pointsfix, that new players wouldn't understand the problem, and that the people who complain about it needing to stay the same are what I like to call a "vast minority" (AKA, they seem vast but they're still a minority).
after having played in it for a solid year and a half i will tell you now that it doesn't make it easier for new players; if anything it makes it even harder, and the only people that seem to do well are the people who know what they're doing in general the problem is the vast majority of current renegade players are not good enough to succeed with the pointmod in place, and having the bugged system on seems to keep games closer and less nod-favored as a whole
jonwil wrote on Wed, 30 September 2009 22:44 What I said is that the pointsfix is currently mandatory it wasn't, so why did you change your mind?
liquidv2 wrote on Wed, 30 September 2009 22:40 it doesn't make it easier for new players; if anything it makes it even harder, and the only people that seem to do well are the people who know what they're doing in general i personally think that's ridiculous... a new player who is unaware of the fact you can get money for no reason might be inclined to try earning money by doing something useful, whereas i can make a long list of people who consider themselves "good players" who honestly are convinced that if there's an APC/meds/lights/whatever threatening your base, then the best thing to do is shoot it ineffectually and can't imagine themselves thinking otherwise. just because a lot of "good players" aren't capable of throwing off the bad habits that the pointsbug has taught them (which does rather undermine the claim to be a good player, in my view), doesn't mean new players ought to be indoctrinated into the same bad habits too...
liquidv2 wrote on Wed, 30 September 2009 22:27 Quote: The pointsfix, for now its mandatory (and as far as I know it will remain so during the beta test cycle of 4.0) why are you going back on what was said before with the pointmod going to be a serverside option? it's clearly a bug but people seem to like the option of playing bugged renegade, so don't just take that away from them after 7+ years of playing it that way we've been through this many times What this guy said ^^^
the fact that they couldn't get money to get anything made them leave even sooner than they would have had they been able to gain it by attacking healthy vehicles by any means i'm not one of the players who can't handle the pointmod; i fully understand it and can play with it on no problem, but from my experiences it's not the same story with many if not most other players why do you think servers like st0rm have so many players in them all the time? you join with 1000 starting credits, the harvester dumps 600 or 700 credits, and the mine limit is 127...people like being able to buy and use things, and the pointmod makes it harder to get things and new players tend to get discouraged and go somewhere else if everyone knew how renegade worked and knew how to play i'm sure the pointmod would work a lot better than i've seen it work (example being in community matches)
I am not saying it will remain mandatory, just that right now in our current development build it is mandatory. If and when an option to turn it off is added is a decision that we (as in TT) have not yet made and such a decision will be made in consultation with the server owners (since its the server owners who will be deciding whether they want the pointsfix on their servers)
then you lied to everyone about it because you said from the very start that it would be optional, not that you "may" decide later to make it optional, which is complete horseshit
liquidv2 wrote on Wed, 30 September 2009 23:00 the fact that they couldn't get money to get anything made them leave even sooner than they would have had they been able to gain it by attacking healthy vehicles by any means i'm not one of the players who can't handle the pointmod; i fully understand it and can play with it on no problem, but from my experiences it's not the same story with many if not most other players why do you think servers like st0rm have so many players in them all the time? you join with 1000 starting credits, the harvester dumps 600 or 700 credits, and the mine limit is 127...people like being able to buy and use things, and the pointmod makes it harder to get things and new players tend to get discouraged and go somewhere else if everyone knew how renegade worked and knew how to play i'm sure the pointmod would work a lot better than i've seen it work (example being in community matches) Oh, ok, let's put in an ineffective, illogical way of earning money early game that will confuse new players, rather than suggesting another, more logical approach to how new players can earn money early game. Makes sense. also liquidv2 wrote on Wed, 30 September 2009 23:09 then you lied to everyone about it because you said from the very start that it would be optional, not that you "may" decide later to make it optional, which is complete horseshit If I recall, they said they "might make it optional, but nothing's solid". Infact, I rarely recall the TT team saying anything's 100% solid...
oh, ok, it doesn't make sense, and it hasn't made sense for 7 years, but people seem to like it and have for 7 years so why change it now? i've watched it drive new players out of the server because there was even less they could do, and i've watched new players cluster around the st0rm servers like insects near a bright light are you telling me there's absolutely no correlation?
jonwil wrote on Wed, 30 September 2009 23:07 If and when an option to turn it off is added is a decision that we (as in TT) have not yet made um... yes it is made actually, both mac and myself have agreed that it ought to be optional. certainly the pointsfix can replace the current state as the default points system, but there ought to be an option, even if it's something as simple as somebody making a "reverse pointsfix" to download and install, which would just re-create the original bug.
I just like the way renegade plays now better and I see no reason to force the fix onto everyone.
if it makes people happy then what's the harm in letting them keep it? just stay out of those servers if you can't stand getting points for shooting a harvester or sniping a mammoth tank, but don't deny players the option of having a silly points system that keeps them happy it's already been that way for over 7 years, so why not?
liquidv2 wrote on Wed, 30 September 2009 23:13 oh, ok, it doesn't make sense, and it hasn't made sense for 7 years, but people seem to like it and have for 7 years next you're going to tell me Renegade doesn't drive new players away... liquidv2 wrote on Wed, 30 September 2009 23:13 [color=skyblue]so why change it now? i've watched it drive new players out of the server because there was even less they could do, and i've watched new players cluster around the st0rm servers like insects near a bright light Again, suggest a NEW WAY for them to be more useful, something that makes logical sense, rather than HURF DURF KEEP THIS BUG BECAUSE IT'S BEEN HERE FOR AGES HURR. liquidv2 wrote on Wed, 30 September 2009 23:13 are you telling me there's absolutely no correlation? Maybe not 100% no correlation, but I highly doubt that's the reason all their players play. I wouldn't know for sure though, I haven't played on st0rm for ages... and if I recall, I wasn't too fond of the servers.
new players don't have the patience to stick around and figure out why everyone else seems to be able to buy vehicles, all they can see is that they're poor and that everyone else has things and they eventually grow tired of dying repeatedly and go somewhere else i've watched it happen; i don't know if you've even played in a pointmodded server, because all you're saying is something that works in theory and not in practice
liquidv2 wrote on Wed, 30 September 2009 23:20 new players don't have the patience to stick around and figure out why everyone else seems to be able to buy vehicles, all they can see is that they're poor and that everyone else has things and they eventually grow tired of dying repeatedly and go somewhere else i've watched it happen; i don't know if you've even played in a pointmodded server, because all you're saying is something that works in theory and not in practice If it doesn't work in practice, then suggest something DIFFERENT rather than this or that. There's more than two options...
it's not that easy; i've tried
Spoony wrote on Thu, 01 October 2009 00:13 jonwil wrote on Wed, 30 September 2009 23:07 If and when an option to turn it off is added is a decision that we (as in TT) have not yet made um... yes it is made actually, both mac and myself have agreed that it ought to be optional. certainly the pointsfix can replace the current state as the default points system, but there ought to be an option, even if it's something as simple as somebody making a "reverse pointsfix" to download and install, which would just re-create the original bug. I like what you have to say.
well for one its a points mod and not a points fix when many poeple dont want this so called 'fix' surely its a ludicrous idea to force it on people... it just asking for trouble without neccessity. If it were to actually fix something such as the many bugs then yes make it mandatory, but when it just modifies something that alot of people really dont want... well surely you can see why it should not be mandatory
Quote: and the only people that seem to do well are the people who know what they're doing in general And that totally should NOT happen in Renegade! People who have a clue shouldn't be doing better than people who don't. I'm going to split this topic, once again. It's a debate on its own.
i think the biggest problem is: if players have the choice between a server with pointmod and a server without pointmod they will join the servers without pointmod. ppls like to buy stuff. they wanna have action, but if they cant earn enough money in a fast way for "bigger" weapons then they wont play. we saw that on jelly aow1 as the pointmod was on. after a few months our server was almost empty. (i.e. a normal saturday-afternoon. usually we had a full server, like 20 vs 20, but with the pointmod we had suddenly only like 5 vs 5.) therefor it did fill our other servers wich didnt use the poinmod. the only way to change this condition was that we included the weapon-spawn. after that, jelly 1 was attractive enough for the players and it filled our server again. and so... pointmod???? greetz telly ^^
sgipo wrote on Thu, 01 October 2009 01:28 well for one its a points mod and not a points fix when many poeple dont want this so called 'fix' surely its a ludicrous idea to force it on people... it just asking for trouble without neccessity. If it were to actually fix something such as the many bugs then yes make it mandatory, but when it just modifies something that alot of people really dont want... well surely you can see why it should not be mandatory it's a conclusively established fact that the pointsfix is what the original renegade points system was supposed to be. there's just a bug in the way that was not intended and not noticed in time to be fixed. however, the main point is a no-brainer, in my view. TT came to a decision long ago on this. we're all in favour of the pointsfix, we all conclusively acknowledge the fact that it is the original renegade points system, we unequivocally are of the opinion that it improves gameplay and we think it ought to have pride of place on the official ladder... but we also decided that if a community really wants to keep the pointsbug in the servers they pay for, they ought to have that option. (i could mention the fact that when i try to exercise this choice in my projects and say: "yes, i do want to use the pointsfix here" a great many of the anti-pointsfix crowd suddenly wish there was no choice in the matter after all, though this behaviour doesn't really alter the essential point) jonwil is, i think, simply unaware that this was decided some time ago. the solution is obvious to me: by all means include the pointsfix in the scripts package, by all means include it in the TT patch... but at the same time, somebody make a "Pointsbug" file that a server can download and install, that will re-create the original bug. surely the black-intel guys can do this? just make a backward-pointsfix?
if/when we make this optional, it wont be by any kind of "pointsbug" file or anything. It will be an official server option settable via some kind of config file.
when. not if. tt's already agreed upon this. if you were unaware of that, then ok, now you know and we've averted a drama before it started.
No pointsfix please, don't force hundreds of players who have played this game for years to give up their style of play. They game is thoroughly unenjoyable when you can't play it the way you want to, and there are a great deal of oldschool people for whom the game would become thoroughly unenjoyable if the pointsfix became mandatory. TT is supposed to bring new life to renegade, not help kill it off even more.
LULZ at everyone complaining about pointfix. Tell me, how do you notice that the pointfix is ON? Except by asking the serverowner? I'm sure that half of the people that complain don't even know.
I encourage everyone that is in favour of the pointsbug to read this: http://www.renegadeforums.com/index.php?t=msg&th=34799&start=0&rid=4 882 , with an emphasis (but not only) on Spoony's post.
You are also not allowed to debate the points fix without knowing the facts and figures in the original post in this thread. http://www.renegadeforums.com/index.php?t=msg&goto=286019&rid=8#msg_2860 19 It thoroughly explains the facts and figures behind the points fix.
EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Thu, 01 October 2009 07:11 LULZ at everyone complaining about pointfix. Tell me, how do you notice that the pointfix is ON? Except by asking the serverowner? I'm sure that half of the people that complain don't even know. It's as simple as shooting the harvy with an autorifle...
Crimson wrote on Thu, 01 October 2009 09:35 You are also not allowed to debate the points fix without knowing the facts and figures in the original post in this thread. http://www.renegadeforums.com/index.php?t=msg&goto=286019&rid=8#msg_2860 19 It thoroughly explains the facts and figures behind the points fix. so does that mean that unless one goes through and read that post, their opinion is invalid? I for one think that the points fix should be optional.
masterkna wrote on Thu, 01 October 2009 07:51 Crimson wrote on Thu, 01 October 2009 09:35 You are also not allowed to debate the points fix without knowing the facts and figures in the original post in this thread. http://www.renegadeforums.com/index.php?t=msg&goto=286019&rid=8#msg_2860 19 It thoroughly explains the facts and figures behind the points fix. so does that mean that unless one goes through and read that post, their opinion is invalid? I for one think that the points fix should be optional. You might as well be saying nation-wide health care is a bad idea without knowing all the facts. Sure, you have the right to, I suppose. But you don't look like any less of an idiot for doing so.
masterkna wrote on Thu, 01 October 2009 09:51 so does that mean that unless one goes through and read that post, their opinion is invalid? I for one think that the points fix should be optional. i think she's just referring to the large number of people who have argued against the pointsfix based on entirely incorrect assumptions. to clarify: we're not talking about people's "opinions" here, we're talking about things people put forward as "facts" which turned out to be completely wrong. that doesn't really happen anymore, the anti-pointsfix crowd has lost too many arguments to keep trying that, so the argument has just boiled down to "but we prefer this", which is, of course, irrefutable.
Spoony wrote on Thu, 01 October 2009 10:11 that doesn't really happen anymore, the anti-pointsfix crowd has lost too many arguments to keep trying that, so the argument has just boiled down to "but we prefer this", which is, of course, irrefutable. It's also not a valid arguement, so boo on the anti-pointfix crowd.
Dover wrote on Thu, 01 October 2009 19:46 Spoony wrote on Thu, 01 October 2009 10:11 that doesn't really happen anymore, the anti-pointsfix crowd has lost too many arguments to keep trying that, so the argument has just boiled down to "but we prefer this", which is, of course, irrefutable. It's also not a valid arguement, so boo on the anti-pointfix crowd. well, my point is valid. ask the jelly server owners/admins/mods. greetz telly ^^
I think the pointsfix should be mandatory. If this is the case, I think gameplay in public servers will increase because it will encourage ppl to buy tanks over infantry. That way they can actually be useful to their team.
SoQRadio wrote on Thu, 01 October 2009 16:07 I think the pointsfix should be mandatory. If this is the case, I think gameplay in public servers will increase because it will encourage ppl to buy tanks over infantry. That way they can actually be useful to their team. BUT YOU CANT BE PRO AND SHOOT HARVS WITH LIGHT INF ANYMOR!!1111111
SoQRadio wrote on Thu, 01 October 2009 16:07 I think the pointsfix should be mandatory. If this is the case, I think gameplay in public servers will increase because it will encourage ppl to buy tanks over infantry. That way they can actually be useful to their team. you shouldn't have to force that though, it should just be presented as an option if a server doesn't want to use it they should have a choice to not use it, and it should be simple as a result they could be penalized or ultimately excluded from the TT ladder, but if they're fine with that then who really cares just because you entirely disagree with the way some people play doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to play that way, especially if it's not even in your server what if a server used a mod to make all vehicles fly and people enjoyed playing with it? would you be in support of something that would make it impossible for them to use it even if it had nothing to do with you? i don't understand why everyone has to conform to the ideal image of renegade if they don't want to just let them have their fun, even if it's not your idea of fun
liquidv2 wrote on Thu, 01 October 2009 17:36 SoQRadio wrote on Thu, 01 October 2009 16:07 I think the pointsfix should be mandatory. If this is the case, I think gameplay in public servers will increase because it will encourage ppl to buy tanks over infantry. That way they can actually be useful to their team. you shouldn't have to force that though, it should just be presented as an option if a server doesn't want to use it they should have a choice to not use it, and it should be simple as a result they could be penalized or ultimately excluded from the TT ladder, but if they're fine with that then who really cares Fair enough. liquidv2 wrote on Thu, 01 October 2009 17:36 just because you entirely disagree with the way some people play doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to play that way, especially if it's not even in your server what if a server used a mod to make all vehicles fly and people enjoyed playing with it? would you be in support of something that would make it impossible for them to use it even if it had nothing to do with you? i don't understand why everyone has to conform to the ideal image of renegade if they don't want to just let them have their fun, even if it's not your idea of fun The way people are playing is killing the game for server regulars/more experienced players. This is certainly the case from my experience playing smaller games on Exodus. For example, when every1 wants to tunnel snipe on field (and then type in team chat "LOL WE TOOK TUNNELS!!11!") instead of buying vechs and taking the field...ppl get pissed. I dont know if pointsfix fixes this, but if people have more incentive to help their team, that seems like a good thing imo.
We are most likely going to penalize but not remove servers from participating in the official ladder for keeping the bugged points system. In fact, there are other server settings that will be included in this new system as well.
SoQRadio wrote on Thu, 01 October 2009 18:13 I dont know if pointsfix fixes this, but if people have more incentive to help their team, that seems like a good thing imo. it sounds like you have not played much with the pointmod, if at all the thought kind of scares me; i know it like the back of my hand because i've played with it extensively and it's not hard to grasp, but a lot of people in support of it have probably not played with it much (at least not as much as i have) i like to think that it will make players work together better, but there's always the chance that it won't and could actually drive players away at a time when losing players is no longer an option; the game is too old to start gaining new players i'd hate to see renegade die sooner than it has to for any reason, and if i didn't care i wouldn't say anything at all
As long as the points"fix" isn't mandatory, I'm completely fine with this. If it becomes mandatory, I'll still play; however, I can guarantee we will lose a LARGE amount of players... It is quite evident that the majority of the people do not want the pointfix, judging by the amount of people replying to spoony's posts on the Jelly forums. I know that this point does not make it invalid to implement the pointfix, I'm just saying it is quite obvious that the majority of the people do not want it to be mandatory. Renedead incoming
I seriously doubt everybody will quit renegade because of something like this. I honestly think people here are just too afraid of having a game play element they're adjusted to being changed. Any newcomer wouldn't be able to tell any sort of difference.
Tildeth wrote on Thu, 01 October 2009 21:16 it is quite obvious that the majority of the people do not want it to be mandatory. yea i agree
No, the majority doesn't care. The minority is being very vocal about it.
those in favor of making the pointmod mandatory are also a minority; the majority doesn't speak at all, and probably won't see this website
Perhaps we should have a poll then? Democracy or dictatorship...No hitlers please
no communists either, i.e. saying "the people" get to decide what goes on someone else's project... lost count of the number of times the anti-pointsfix crowd has been absolutely convinced they're entitled to that. (clanwars league is a perfect example) it's really simple tbh. TT made the decision ages ago. the pointsfix should replace the current system as the DEFAULT points system. and it ought to have special place on the official ladder. but, servers can still have the option to use the pointsbug. with the exception of jonwil (who, it seems, was simply unaware of what TT decided), everyone in TT thinks this choice is fine. but here's the thing. PLENTY of people on the anti-pointsfix crowd have demonstrated that they actually OPPOSE this choice. including you, tildeth. if you couldn't handle the fact that i wanted to use the pointsfix in the clanwars league, if you support the people who used the absolutely despicable tactics they did use to try to subvert the owner's wishes INSTEAD of supporting my decisions... you have absolutely ZERO credibility talking about individual choice in this matter. Z-E-R-O. by doing this, you proved you OPPOSE the whole idea of each community's individual choice.
I think everyone can agree that servers should have an option in regards to whether or not they want to implement the pointsfix. Can we move on now please instead of rehashing old arguments?
Spoony wrote on Thu, 01 October 2009 23:29 no communists either, i.e. saying "the people" get to decide what goes on someone else's project... lost count of the number of times the anti-pointsfix crowd has been absolutely convinced they're entitled to that. (clanwars league is a perfect example) it's really simple tbh. TT made the decision ages ago. the pointsfix should replace the current system as the DEFAULT points system. and it ought to have special place on the official ladder. but, servers can still have the option to use the pointsbug. with the exception of jonwil (who, it seems, was simply unaware of what TT decided), everyone in TT thinks this choice is fine. but here's the thing. PLENTY of people on the anti-pointsfix crowd have demonstrated that they actually OPPOSE this choice. including you, tildeth. if you couldn't handle the fact that i wanted to use the pointsfix in the clanwars league, if you support the people who used the absolutely despicable tactics they did use to try to subvert the owner's wishes INSTEAD of supporting my decisions... you have absolutely ZERO credibility talking about individual choice in this matter. Z-E-R-O. by doing this, you proved you OPPOSE the whole idea of each community's individual choice. What are you chatting about now? Getting angry because you know a poll will reveal the truth about what people think about this point"fix"? It wasn't me who rejected the pointfix in clanwars.cc, it was the LEAGUE. Didn't you notice the C4U servers completely die when it was used there? Didn't you notice the same thing at Jelly (as tellsson pointed out earlier)? Or are you still too thick-headed to admit to it? Like I said earlier, I will still play in the server if it is running pointfix; I'm simply pointing out the consequenses of this idea. Don't believe me? Make the poll then big guy, unless you're completely horrified of seeing the results staggering against you...Which I believe to be the case after your reply to my previous post.
SoQRadio wrote on Thu, 01 October 2009 23:33 I think everyone can agree that servers should have an option in regards to whether or not they want to implement the pointsfix. Can we move on now please instead of rehashing old arguments? Agreed, I'm simply suggesting a poll to prove to people the overwhelming amount of players who are "anti-pointfix". Clearly spoony is upset by the idea of revealing these numbers.
Tildeth wrote on Thu, 01 October 2009 23:54 What are you chatting about now? Getting angry because you know a poll will reveal the truth about what people think about this point"fix"? No, this seems like yet another example of you completely failing to read what I'm saying, just like the thread on jelly. Tildeth wrote on Thu, 01 October 2009 23:54 It wasn't me who rejected the pointfix in clanwars.cc, it was the LEAGUE. Didn't you notice the C4U servers completely die when it was used there? here we are. an individual league, clanwars.cc chose to use the pointsfix. i was the admin. this means i get to choose this. what did people do? totally disregarded the admin's choice. character assassination. endlessly lied about the situation to influence opinion, and most crucially, they LIED to the server hosts to get it removed. they even lied about the situation much later on other forums about whether it was even implemented at all. now, who do you support in this situation? you've made it clear already, but i'll spell out the situation so everyone sees it for what it is. do you support -a- the rightfully appointed renadmin+league owner, who decided that the pointsfix was the right thing for the league? or -b- do you support the DESPICABLE tactics the anti-pointsfix crowd used at clanwars, completely subverting the admin's wishes, and continually lying to get what they wanted? it's clearly -b- in your case, because you've tried to use the appalling situation at clanwars as an argument AGAINST the pointsfix - which shows you have no respect for honesty, or the authority of the only person who could ever be bothered hosting a clan league for pricks like you, or the way any particular community chooses to make its decisions. if you want a pointsbug league, what's ever stopped you hosting one? YOU, tildeth? don't dodge this question, answer it: why didn't YOU host a clan league with the pointsbug? i did, even though i like the pointsfix better. i'm not the one with any explaining to do here. so there you have it. for all i care, n00bstories can make their choice, pointsfix or not. i don't care what they choose, i don't care how they choose it - whether by a vote or by admin discussion or by crimson flipping a coin. it's not my business. jelly can make their choice. black-cell can make their choice. etc etc etc. i support these individual choices. YOU DO NOT! you proved this when you take the side of the people who used such disgusting tactics at clanwars, instead of me. you continue to prove this by holding to this position. Tildeth wrote on Thu, 01 October 2009 23:54 Didn't you notice the same thing at Jelly (as tellsson pointed out earlier)? yes, but I didn't notice it at n00bstories. clearly the pointsfix isn't the only factor... perhaps jelly moderators and admins treating players like absolute shit for no reason might have something to do with it too? just look at the way they treat me, despite the fact i've done absolutely nothing wrong. Tildeth wrote on Thu, 01 October 2009 23:54 Don't believe me? Make the poll then big guy, unless you're completely horrified of seeing the results staggering against you...Which I believe to be the case after your reply to my previous post. uh, what poll? whether there should be a choice? i've said ad nauseum that I support the idea that there should be, even if you don't. or simply a head count of how many people don't like the pointsfix? i don't care, we're giving people a choice to host servers without it. there's no problem in my eyes, unless jelly continues to keep the current stranglehold on the game listings so no new servers can possibly flourish.
Haha, yet again, you completely misunderstand (or choose to misunderstand, in this case) where I'm coming from. I already told you that I don't care whether or not there is pointfix, and I already AGREED to letting the servers have the options of running it or not (you dodged that post). What I'm asking for is a simple poll to prove to everyone how many people disprove of the pointfix. Your rene-essays regarding me being a "dishonest prick" only prove even furthur your fear of this idea, you get more and more angry every time I ask for the poll haha, it's cute. You say you "don't care" about how many people don't like pointfix. If that's true, why not make a poll? OH, thats right, you DO care, because you're terrified of the idea of seeing a extremely staggered poll favouring the "anti-pointfix". Edit: You say "YOU DO NOT SUPPORT SERVERS USING POINTFIX" - read the post that you dodged, genius. Quit saying I'm "holding a position". Yes, we all know I'm anti-pointfix, but all I've suggested is a poll to show statistics, I DID NOT say that the poll would determine whether or not the the pointfix would be implemented; it's that suggestion that has set you off into your rene-essay rage in trying to make me look bad while completely dodging the poll (for OBVIOUS reasons).
Tildeth wrote on Fri, 02 October 2009 06:43 I already told you that I don't care whether or not there is pointfix, and I already AGREED to letting the servers have the options of running it or not (you dodged that post). Sure you SAY you agree to it, but you've already proven that you don't mean it. Either repudiate everything you've said about the clanwars situation (which means condemn the absolutely despicable tactics of people like simpee and clearshot and mikey, and supporting me), or admit your real feelings about this subject. Put up or shut up. You were uncharacteristically honest at one point in the thread on jelly when you said you wanted the TT ladder to be less fair. Well, if you think that, you think that. Just be honest, eh? Don't say you approve of each community choosing for itself when your track record proves the absolute opposite. You'd rather side with the cheaters and pointpushers and the compulsive liars who totally disregard and try to subvert the admin's decisions, than side with the only person who could ever be bothered hosting a clan ladder for ungrateful mean ladys like you. It's not often someone manages to subtract every last shred of credibility from their own statements. Still, it happens... look at the astonishing low clearshot sank to recently.
I can see you're gonna carry on dodging the clanwars situation, since it utterly destroys every gram of credibility you have in this entire debate. Well, you want a poll? Go ahead and start a petition if you like, so you can see who's replying and what they say. See if you can get a majority of players on Renegade. That's thousands, by the way. TT ladder says nearly 10,000 unique names. Sure some of these are duplicate names, let's assume 5,000 recent players (that seems quite a generous guess to you). See if you can get 1000 people to say they don't like the pointsfix, that would be one in five.
haha, well actually, I agree to it because I'm confident in my playing abilities with or without pointfix. I'm just saying that it's going to affect the number of players in the servers running the fix, hence, my distaste for it. What about that don't you understand? Evidently everything, because every time I try and make you aware of these facts you go off raging about how unethical the entire clanwars league was for jumping out of their tank at the last second LOL. Jelly community members, moderators, and admins dont give you shit for "no reason", it just registers like that in your head because you always think you're always right. And don't worry, I made the poll. edit: in regard to the post above, let's think more the amount of people who actively post on forums, because everybody knows that all "5000" players don't post on forums LOL you really aren't as smart as you make yourself out to be if you think they do. night night spoony poo, I'll reply to your next essay tomorrow.
Tildeth wrote on Fri, 02 October 2009 00:59 edit: in regard to the post above, let's think more the amount of people who actively post on forums, because everybody knows that all "5000" players don't post on forums renforums polls are not quite representative for the community in total. Its active members consists of representatives of clans/communities and a whole lot of players who are not fixed clan/community members. Further, as EWD pointed, a lot of "non regular" players wouldn't even notice whether they play on a pointfix or bugged server. (If I have an occasional game of BF or anything I would never notice a change it points ) The only representative vote is a poll among the clan/community -leaders and major server owners. They feel responsible for their members and their public players. They would not vote for something which wouldnt be good for their server/clan/community. AFAIK this poll took place already and the majority agreed on the need of this pointfix.
The poll already happened and the fact many of the people posting here now don't remember it, proves that polls are never really representative. The poll ended in a perfect 50/50 with a high amount of votes and also a sudden inflow of new people who never made a single post, following the posts on some community's forums to come and register here to vote con points fix, without even argumenting why. That's how representative polls are on renegade forums...
Goztow wrote on Fri, 02 October 2009 09:06 [size=6] The poll ended in a perfect 50/50 with a high amount of votes and also a sudden inflow of new people who never made a single post, following the posts on some community's forums to come and register here to vote con points fix, without even argumenting why. erm.. i`m sure there was pro pointmod guys also who did the same shit. greetz telly ^^
tellsson wrote on Fri, 02 October 2009 10:10 Goztow wrote on Fri, 02 October 2009 09:06 [size=6] The poll ended in a perfect 50/50 with a high amount of votes and also a sudden inflow of new people who never made a single post, following the posts on some community's forums to come and register here to vote con points fix, without even argumenting why. erm.. i`m sure there was pro pointmod guys also who did the same shit. greetz telly ^^ Maybe, but it wasn't done on a public subforum of a major Renegade community then, as I would've been pointed towards this as well in that case. I'm just trying to indicate how good polls on this kind of subjects work around here...
Tildeth wrote on Thu, 01 October 2009 23:54 Didn't you notice the same thing at Jelly (as tellsson pointed out earlier)? spoony yes, but I didn't notice it at n00bstories. clearly the pointsfix isn't the only factor... perhaps jelly moderators and admins treating players like absolute shit for no reason might have something to do with it too? just look at the way they treat me, despite the fact i've done absolutely nothing wrong. cmon.... only coz 1 mod and an old reg treated you doesnt mean that the whole jelly staff act like this. you did see that clearly as the mod got demoded. the player-loss has nothing to do with this. do you really think the mods started to act like bullshit as we started with the pointmod, and stopped with it as we inserted the weapon spawn?? roflmao. the players left j1 and played in other jelly servers, where the same mods was involved... pls, dont try to let it look like a conspiracy against the pointmod. its a fact that the pointmod did empty j1. greetz telly ^^
Tildeth wrote on Fri, 02 October 2009 05:01 Perhaps we should have a poll then? Democracy or dictatorship...No hitlers please Godwin's law, Anti pointfix ppl lose.
liquidv2 wrote on Fri, 02 October 2009 01:39 SoQRadio wrote on Thu, 01 October 2009 18:13 I dont know if pointsfix fixes this, but if people have more incentive to help their team, that seems like a good thing imo. it sounds like you have not played much with the pointmod, if at all the thought kind of scares me; i know it like the back of my hand because i've played with it extensively and it's not hard to grasp, but a lot of people in support of it have probably not played with it much (at least not as much as i have) i like to think that it will make players work together better, but there's always the chance that it won't and could actually drive players away at a time when losing players is no longer an option; the game is too old to start gaining new players i'd hate to see renegade die sooner than it has to for any reason, and if i didn't care i wouldn't say anything at all I dare to say that I have played MUCH more WITH pointfix than you. It has been runnning on the BlackIntel and TheKOSs2 servers for much longer than it has been released to certain communities. I must also say that if you actually try to harm the enemy, the pointfix will be your friend. If you prefer to keep your K/D high then yes, pointfix sucks. Also, what you're doing (all of you ANTIpointfix ppl) is separating the community. This could cause EA not to support this patch. That will mean that people that care will have TT patch, but all the newbies (who would probably better off with TT patch would be stuck in sucky servers without TT patch.
To be honest, i see this turning into a, unneeded flame war. I think Telsson's experience is very worthy in this discussion. It shows that servers aiming for casual players may need to find an alternative for the points bug to provide people with enough money quickly to keep them interested, if they choose to apply the points fix. There's 100s of ways of doing this and there's even already a topic about this. This topic will be locked now, nothing new will come up and it'll only end up with frustration at both sides.