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Ideas to help newcomers/people joining a serv mid-game
To separate the "POINTSFIX SUX BECUASE NEWPLAYERS THEN GET NO MONEY" argument from the other topic, I thought it'd be nice to maybe, y'know, take a logical approach to the whole situation by adding a few ideas that could possibly help keep new players in, and generally help any problems people have with pointsfix. First off is money in early game. I think a more official way to donate rather than a !donate command would be handy. And an option to enable/disable it in servers. Another idea is to make repairing things generally give more money. You won't be repairing things at the start of a game, so this won't affect much early game, but if you join a new server and have no credits, being an engineer would be a decent way to earn credits. To make players more aware of this, I suggest perhaps a tutorial or FAQ that's easily accessible and very visible to players in general. The next idea might be a bit too game changing, but perhaps make it so that infantry who deal damage to vehicles (ACTUAL damage, not 0 damage and get 100000 points) get more points than they normally would. Generally speaking, this should consist of grenadiers, rocket soldiers, C4s, and etc. The points/money shouldn't be THAT much more than usual- just enough to give you that extra boost to make dealing damage to vehicles somewhat useful. Some additional ideas to help keep pointsfix while making it still easy to get money early game/joining a serv would be appreciated. EDIT: to be continued here: http://www.renegadeforums.com/index.php?t=msg&th=34870&start=0&rid=4 882
Re: Ideas to help newcomers/people joining a serv mid-game
Quote: Another idea is to make repairing things generally give more money. You won't be repairing things at the start of a game, so this won't affect much early game, but if you join a new server and have no credits, being an engineer would be a decent way to earn credits. in renegade points are equal to credits repairing gives you exactly half the points you would get for attacking, and by giving more points to people repairing you would have a negative effect on the balance since renegade is an offense-based game the thought you had of infantry getting more points for damaging vehicles would be great for the infantry but have a negative effect on the balance an idea i had a while ago was to make vehicles in the pointmod worth more than 10% of their cost in points, and instead 20 or 25% so it would be worthwhile to fight a vehicle this would result in infantry and buildings being worth less than they should overall because vehicles were too high; it would have a negative effect on the balance hitting a building gives you much more points than hitting a vehicle, but this is because the building is worth that much more you can't change anything without having a completely adverse effect pop up somewhere else; the pointmod is mathematically sound, and because of that it is also untouchable it sucks i had to entirely retype this post because when i went to preview it it said Page cannot be displayed and when i went back it was a blank page...thanks old forum software!111
Quote: in renegade points are equal to credits And the only way to make this logical is to make points equal damage so damage = points = credits. It's not hard at all to make the game "more enjoyable" for new comers if by more enjoyable you mean they can get vehicles (and get owned) faster: set the refinery trickle to 3 or 4 credits per second instead of 2 or set starting credits to 1.000. There you have a way of keeping new comers and people joining midway happy while keeping the game as balanced as it's supposed to be. If you want to, you can even make it a bit more complex: give 3 credits per second for people with a 0 character that aren't in a tank and 2 for anyone else. I really don't see where the problem is. You want people to earn money faster? Then give them the money directly in a way everyone comprehends.
my advice for players is actually not gonna be aimed at the new players. it's gonna be aimed at the old players, because they need it more. much, much, much more. it's really simple, but people have been taught so many bad habits by the pointsbug and they don't seem able to shake them off. two points need to be made here. 1. how to earn points (and in the process, credits) three standard ways to do this. damage the enemy, repair damaged allies, and disarm c4/beacons. all of these give a specified amount of points, and money. - for killing vehicles/infantry, you get 10% of their cost (so, 80 for a med, 35 for a tech, etc)... half of this for damaging it to near-death, the other half at the actual kill. - for killing a building, 750. more if it's being teched (same applies to vehicles and infantry) - for repairing allied things it's half what the enemy gets for attacking it - 30 for defusing c4, 300 for disarming beacons there's one other way that was introduced by the pointsbug: shoot stuff you don't damage. this is the odd one out in the sense that it wasn't supposed to happen, AND the odd one out in the sense that it takes zero skill or teamwork, AND the odd one out in the sense that it does nothing to help your team's immediate situation. and yet it's the first choice of many people who consider themselves "good players", which, in my view, undermines their claim to be anywhere decent at this game. in the case of getting MONEY - not points - there are additional things you can do. protect your refinery and your harvester, and get boxes. again, these take a measure of skill and co-ordination, and again, these were supposed to happen. now, if more people weren't wasting their time shooting stuff they don't damage, if they actually did something immediately helpful, their refineries and harvesters would probably not die so often and they wouldn't have this problem in the first place. 2. common sense there's one objection that crops up again and again to the pointsfix. and this is one of those times where you need to really read what they're saying. people say: if you're being sieged, the only way to get money and points is by shooting heavy tanks with an auto rifle. these people saying this have been playing renegade for years... but to read their posts, you wouldn't think so. let us consider specific scenarios. in these, we are assuming you currently can't afford anything, and we'll talk about what you can do in each situation. consider there are med/light tanks pummelling your base. here's what you can do. fix the building they're pummelling. tech any of your teammates who are trying to fight off the tanks. try actually attacking the tanks yourself, with a grenadier/flamethrower or an engi. go kill the hotwires/techs that are supporting the tanks. or, try getting money DESPITE the tanks - go sneak, go grenade, go kill the harvester, go get a box. with the exception of getting a box, all of these potentially help your team's immediate situation. with the exception of fixing a building, all of these require some measure of skill and/or teamwork. it simply doesn't occur to some people that you can do any of these, including many people who clearly consider themselves "good players". instead they're under the delusion that ALL you can do is shoot the enemy tanks with a weapon that doesn't make a dent. (it's hard not to laugh at this, it really is. i don't know how many people with this COLOSSAL blind spot can seriously think of themselves as "hot shit", but the overwhelming majority of them do) so here's the main point. if someone's first instinct upon their base being threatened by a tank is to shoot the tank without damaging it, they're NOT a good player. i would go so far as to call them a dumbass. there is always something HELPFUL you can be doing. always. and a good player will do that instead. another example, an APC in your base. this is different in only one sense: your buildings aren't being pummelled continuously, so you may not have the option of repairing your building for money. yet the other options are still there, AND it is more likely that you can actually help kill the APC by trying to remote it, or at least making it fall back a little to avoid you. now, if there is even the slightest risk, the SLIGHTEST risk of one of your buildings dying (or if the APC is hindering your airstrip), it ought to be your very top priority to do everything you can to prevent it RIGHT NOW. forget about money for a moment. a good player would run from building to building to help ensure their survival, or rush the APC again and again with an engi to remote it or push it back, racking up ten deaths in the process. again, if a player's first instinct is to disregard the immediate threat to their base and instead shoot the APC ineffectually, i put it to you they're a damn idiot. if someone puts their own credits/points ahead of their base's welfare, it renders laughable their claim to be a good player. these people ought to be in a special server where you have 9999 credits at all times, where losing your WF doesn't prevent you buying vehicles, where losing your barracks doesn't prevent you buying special infantry, and where losing your obelisk doesn't stop it protecting your base. put all these idiots in this cotton-wool padded server, please, where they'll be happy because they can't lose and they can't run out of money no matter WHAT happens... and keep them out of the strategic servers, so my teammates will be better players than this. so here's my advice to help the OLD players (who, in my view, need advice much more desperately than the newbies): break your own bad habits. if your base is threatened by heavy tanks, put your credits aside for a moment and DO SOMETHING ABOUT THEM. even with a free infantry, you CAN help. and if your base isn't immediately threatened, what's the urgency? still, if after digesting what i've said there are STILL players who aren't good enough to manage their economy successfully (and generally, people who consider themselves "hot shit" tend to fail miserably in this regard), there's gotta be a better way of increasing overall income than the pointsbug. an invisible, unkillable silo would be better, continually giving everybody 1 credit a second - whether or not the refinery was alive. this way it'd work for everybody, and it would TRULY benefit new players - players who haven't yet figured out the ridiculous bug with heavy armour vehicles. but then, i wonder if this is what the "old-school" players who hate the pointsfix really want? they'd lose their ability to be condescending to new players, and that's clearly important to a lot of them. they'd lose some of their ability to strut around like they're actually good at this game, since the pointsfix strips away these false apprehensions and shows you how much you're ACTUALLY doing (which is precisely why so many people hate it... ) it would ALSO mean you'd be free to do something useful when your base is being stomped... although any good player ought to be doing something useful anyway. but, all of the above answers a better question than the one that was posed. the question was: how to help people who joined mid-game. the quick answer is: tell 'em to join at the start of the game. you may as well ask: "if someone joined after their WF was dead, how can we help these people buy vehicles?" in a nutshell, get this into your head, people. Quote: now, if more people weren't wasting their time shooting stuff they don't damage, if they actually did something immediately helpful, their refineries and harvesters would probably not die so often and they wouldn't have this problem in the first place. ^^ if you're the kind of player who spends a lot of time shooting heavy tanks with a soldier or a ramjet... then every time your team loses a building, it's your fault. you could have done something to prevent it. and if you and your teammates run out of money because your refinery (and even your harvester) gets killed, again, it's your fault. it's not the pointsfix's fault, it's yours.
topic can be locked. Everything said by spoony. 100% agree.
Awesome post, Spoony. Definitely worth a read (even to those who are pro-pointsfix)
That by far is the most damning post ever against the anti-pointsfix folks.
pawkyfox wrote on Thu, 01 October 2009 18:48 That by far is the most damning post ever against the anti-pointsfix folks. (when i glanced at this topic i thought 'HOLLY CRAP' at first though )
Quote: if someone's first instinct upon their base being threatened by a tank is to shoot the tank without damaging it, they're NOT a good player. i would go so far as to call them a dumbass. there is always something HELPFUL you can be doing. always. and a good player will do that instead. the only argument against this is that in doing no damage to the vehicle you are still increasing your points and credits more quickly than you otherwise could and will probably be able to buy a better unit with which to defend the base or aid your team; with the pointmod in place it is no longer an option, but as long as it's there it will always be used as one i think gaining one credit per second is too high, but half a credit would actually make a noticeable difference; on the atomix server you gain 3 credits per second and players can still buy infantry and vehicles with the pointmod in place, and i seem to end up having more in there than i do in a server with the original points in place even if i'm tearing shit up nice summary, it says what needs to be said
IMO "good" players (those who can keep their investments safe) should be allowed to have more expensive units. Without pointsfix it doesn't matter if you die as then you can just shoot a stank/mammy with a rifle and you'll get anything in a minute. Economy is one of the most important things in Renegade and IMO it's fucked with pointsbug as there's no way for a team to run the other one out of money..
liquidv2 wrote on Fri, 02 October 2009 00:15 Quote: if someone's first instinct upon their base being threatened by a tank is to shoot the tank without damaging it, they're NOT a good player. i would go so far as to call them a dumbass. there is always something HELPFUL you can be doing. always. and a good player will do that instead. the only argument against this is that in doing no damage to the vehicle you are still increasing your points and credits more quickly than you otherwise could and will probably be able to buy a better unit with which to defend the base or aid your team; with the pointmod in place it is no longer an option, but as long as it's there it will always be used as one i think gaining one credit per second is too high, but half a credit would actually make a noticeable difference; on the atomix server you gain 3 credits per second and players can still buy infantry and vehicles with the pointmod in place, and i seem to end up having more in there than i do in a server with the original points in place even if i'm tearing shit up nice summary, it says what needs to be said Whenever I'm ingame right from game start, I tend to never really run out of money unless I just rushed up to the enemy like 3-4 times and lost all of the rushes. This can be rushes to their base or to their vehicles to break the seige. Also, gaining creds/points with the pointbug enables you to get more points on Under when your whole (GDI) team is in an APC than when you're using artilleries. Now, that's odd isn't it? An APC (a support unit) can easily get more points (without rushing) than an arty which actually does damage. We've seen this in Clantraining/Wars with TK2. With pointbug, GDI could easily win Under with APC's. With pointfix the effect was immeadiately noticeable. You couldn't use only APC's anymore, and you really need the GDI workhorse, the Med to get the job done.
Back to the topic, Jelly Marathon's approach of handing out credits for "base defense" and "tank support" rec's works fairly well. (Of course, a marathon server can't be compared to an AOW server, the time limit changes a lot)
CarrierII wrote on Sat, 03 October 2009 18:21 Back to the topic, Jelly Marathon's approach of handing out credits for "base defense" and "tank support" rec's works fairly well. (Of course, a marathon server can't be compared to an AOW server, the time limit changes a lot) And that would be....?
liquidv2 wrote on Thu, 01 October 2009 18:15 Quote: if someone's first instinct upon their base being threatened by a tank is to shoot the tank without damaging it, they're NOT a good player. i would go so far as to call them a dumbass. there is always something HELPFUL you can be doing. always. and a good player will do that instead. the only argument against this is that in doing no damage to the vehicle you are still increasing your points and credits more quickly than you otherwise could and will probably be able to buy a better unit with which to defend the base or aid your team; with the pointmod in place it is no longer an option, but as long as it's there it will always be used as one i think gaining one credit per second is too high, but half a credit would actually make a noticeable difference; on the atomix server you gain 3 credits per second and players can still buy infantry and vehicles with the pointmod in place, and i seem to end up having more in there than i do in a server with the original points in place even if i'm tearing shit up nice summary, it says what needs to be said This has always been my problem with pointsfix, even in tank fighting you don't gain points fast enough. Fair enough right, yes it makes the game more fair yada yada. Point being, as it stands in my opinion you gain credits too slow with pointsfix on, regardless of what you're doing (exception shooting/repairing buildings). 3 creds per second would be far too much for sure. Perhaps the way to balance pointsfix for people who don't prefer it (myself included) would be to test an actual ratio for credits per second. I've realized that Spoony is right about long games/joining late and if your ref is dead, tough shit. But so long as it's alive I think a bit more than 2/sec should be awarded to offset the decreased points you get overall. Maybe it's 2.5? Maybe 2.25? So you'd get 2,2,2,3. I don't know what the actual number is but I'd be willing to test it. What do you think Spoomer? Edit: The unkillable silo...not a bad idea for an option, or even a killable silo. Perhaps it could have the extra credits of .25 or .5 ...either way I've played in servers with 3 creds/sec and it's too easy to rack up tons of credits so quick, even minimized....
EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Sat, 03 October 2009 16:26 CarrierII wrote on Sat, 03 October 2009 18:21 Back to the topic, Jelly Marathon's approach of handing out credits for "base defense" and "tank support" rec's works fairly well. (Of course, a marathon server can't be compared to an AOW server, the time limit changes a lot) And that would be....? Per X amount of building repair points you get a Rec, per X amount of tank repair points you get a rec. I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, but you get them probably every 15 minutes or so. It's been a while since I played.
Homey wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 11:17 EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Sat, 03 October 2009 16:26 CarrierII wrote on Sat, 03 October 2009 18:21 Back to the topic, Jelly Marathon's approach of handing out credits for "base defense" and "tank support" rec's works fairly well. (Of course, a marathon server can't be compared to an AOW server, the time limit changes a lot) And that would be....? Per X amount of building repair points you get a Rec, per X amount of tank repair points you get a rec. I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, but you get them probably every 15 minutes or so. It's been a while since I played. How are Recs related to money, that was more my question. I know how recs work normally
Homey wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 11:09 liquidv2 wrote on Thu, 01 October 2009 18:15 Quote: if someone's first instinct upon their base being threatened by a tank is to shoot the tank without damaging it, they're NOT a good player. i would go so far as to call them a dumbass. there is always something HELPFUL you can be doing. always. and a good player will do that instead. the only argument against this is that in doing no damage to the vehicle you are still increasing your points and credits more quickly than you otherwise could and will probably be able to buy a better unit with which to defend the base or aid your team; with the pointmod in place it is no longer an option, but as long as it's there it will always be used as one i think gaining one credit per second is too high, but half a credit would actually make a noticeable difference; on the atomix server you gain 3 credits per second and players can still buy infantry and vehicles with the pointmod in place, and i seem to end up having more in there than i do in a server with the original points in place even if i'm tearing shit up nice summary, it says what needs to be said This has always been my problem with pointsfix, even in tank fighting you don't gain points fast enough. Fair enough right, yes it makes the game more fair yada yada. Point being, as it stands in my opinion you gain credits too slow with pointsfix on, regardless of what you're doing (exception shooting/repairing buildings). 3 creds per second would be far too much for sure. Perhaps the way to balance pointsfix for people who don't prefer it (myself included) would be to test an actual ratio for credits per second. I've realized that Spoony is right about long games/joining late and if your ref is dead, tough shit. But so long as it's alive I think a bit more than 2/sec should be awarded to offset the decreased points you get overall. Maybe it's 2.5? Maybe 2.25? So you'd get 2,2,2,3. I don't know what the actual number is but I'd be willing to test it. What do you think Spoomer? Edit: The unkillable silo...not a bad idea for an option, or even a killable silo. Perhaps it could have the extra credits of .25 or .5 ...either way I've played in servers with 3 creds/sec and it's too easy to rack up tons of credits so quick, even minimized.... Easier perhas would just multiply the amount of money you get per point. Now you get 1 credit per point, and then you would for example get 2 credits per point. This would be a logical way to get more money in the game, if that is really your only problem with the pointfix.
1. I think recs are just an incentive, not sure if there ever was anything to do with credits. 2. Good idea tbh. My problem has never been with how points work in pointsfix, it's how credits end up working. After playing this game for 8 years I couldn't careless about score, and I get bored pretty quickly if I can buy stuff. Maybe taking the idea I have with your's would be an even better idea. Keep points the same, but 1 points = 1.x credits. I could see that working. That's always been my problem with points fix, lack of points = lack of credits = less action. With this idea, lack of points = more credits (say on par with pointsbug) = same action. Therefore not really changing gameplay in the manner that has bugged me, but correctly points and making the proper team win. Granted, this is just the problem I have with it, unsure about anyone else.
In Jelly Marathon, whenever you get a "Tank Support" or "Base Defence" rec, you also receive 250 credits. This is to act as an incentive for people with little cash (which is the issue with joining a looooooooong game half-way through) to do useful things with engis, and thus solves two problems: 1) It gets more cash into the game, esp for players who are just in. 2) It encourages the most useful (or nearly the) part of the game, repairing.
CarrierII wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 14:11 In Jelly Marathon, whenever you get a "Tank Support" or "Base Defence" rec, you also receive 250 credits. This is to act as an incentive for people with little cash (which is the issue with joining a looooooooong game half-way through) to do useful things with engis, and thus solves two problems: 1) It gets more cash into the game, esp for players who are just in. 2) It encourages the most useful (or nearly the) part of the game, repairing. I think that you wouldn't need that if you would use pointfix together with an increased points/credit ratio. If you would increase that ratio to 2 for example you would get 40 credits for placing one remote on a vehicle. That should rack up money pretty quicky. Killing a 1000 char would get you between 200 credits (if he had full health) and 100 credits (if he was deadlike, but just alive) and so on. Repairing would get you 4 credits per second, not counting the refinery. That doesn't sound too bad right?
the more credits per damage seems like the best option, frankly. let's all agree that getting points and money for doing no damage is completely ridiculous and it positively harms gameplay, damages fairness, and makes people crappy players. that, i think, is a given by now. more credits per damage on the other hand seems like a decent solution to people who think you can't get enough money with the pointsbug. (i frankly can't understand this, and i think it says a lot about the player when they say this, but hey) so let's say you hit a med with an art. with the pointsfix you currently get, what, 5 points per shot? and therefore 5 credits. (i'm guessing there, but 5 seems about right) what if the points per shot was kept at 5 but the credits gain increased by 50%, therefore about 7? same would go for infantry and buildings. and for repairing damaged stuff. (and for disarming c4 and beacons? that would mean you'd still get 30/300 points for c4/beacon but 45/450 credits.) so in a nutshell, it would be a compromise allowing players to get money easier, but - and here's the important point - only if they actually EARN them by doing something immediately helpful, i.e. attacking the enemy in such a way that does damage, and repairing your team's assets.
Great idea TT, lets try to completely change the game so that we can incorporate our shitty pointfix into the game and try to make up for one of its many weaknesses. while ur at it, why dont u make apaches shoot as far as orcas, and make havocs skinnier so theyre harder to hit? you are meant to be fixxing the bugs in the game, not trying to change the makeup of the game to suit urself. leave the pointfix optional and let people play how they want to play. If a server wants an "invisible silo" giving them 3 credits per second then thats their choice and u can punish them on ur universal ladder or whatever, but dont try to take over ren and force people to play the game how you want them too. jelly and whats left of clanwars have already made it pretty clear theyre not going to use pointfix, why are u still trying?
I doubt this will be big enough: THE POINTSFIX IS OPTIONAL, ALSO, THE CONTENT OF THIS TOPIC IS SPECULATIVE, AND NOT FINAL PATCH CONTENT.
ELiT3FLyR wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 09:17 Great idea TT, lets try to completely change the game so that we can incorporate our shitty pointfix into the game and try to make up for one of its many weaknesses. Actually, we're trying to make up for one of YOUR many weaknesses, namely the fact you're nowhere near as good at the game as you strut around saying you are. By your own admission you can't get enough points and credits by tankfighting in pointsfix servers. I always can. There's only one possible conclusion to draw from this; you're not that good in tanks (which, in my view, is the biggest reason why you hate the pointsfix... it shatters illusions like this, it shows you how much you're actually contributing, and of course that's an uncomfortable revelation for you) What we're basically offering here is a way for lesser skilled players like you to still be able to get a bit more credits, although on the basis that they actually do something to EARN them (attacking the enemy in such a way that actually damages them, and repairing buildings/tanks). It'd also help you break your bad habits and make you a better player. Win-win. ELiT3FLyR wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 09:17 while ur at it, why dont u make apaches shoot as far as orcas, and make havocs skinnier so theyre harder to hit? Saying something stupid and irrelevant doesn't mean you've won the argument. ELiT3FLyR wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 09:17 you are meant to be fixxing the bugs in the game, not trying to change the makeup of the game to suit urself. This is true, although I'm not sure why you're saying it. We are fixing the bugs in the game, and the only people we're trying to suit with this new idea is the lesser skilled players who can't keep their economy going in a pointsfix server such as yourself. ELiT3FLyR wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 09:17 leave the pointfix optional and let people play how they want to play. ELiT3FLyR wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 09:17 jelly and whats left of clanwars have already made it pretty clear theyre not going to use pointfix, why are u still trying? These two statements totally contradict each other. TT thinks the pointsfix should be optional for each community. I think it should be optional. I can name plenty of people at Jelly and Clanwars who absolutely DO NOT think it should be optional for each community... INCLUDING YOU. You proved it at clanwars and you proved it again at jelly. The only thing the pointsfix episode at clanwars proved is that there are people in this game who ABSOLUTELY OPPOSE the idea of a community choosing for itself whether or not to use the pointsfix. I'm fine with this choice; you proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that you're against it, and you later admitted as much in the jelly thread. Remember? You said you didn't want ANYONE to use the pointsfix, because it would increase the risk of all servers using it and you having nowhere to play. ELiT3FLyR wrote but dont try to take over ren and force people to play the game how you want them too. We're not. You've tried doing this TWICE. Once at clanwars, once at jelly. And since you mentioned jelly, this might be a good time to repeat my earlier statement about the jelly community's unwarranted, unchallengeable 4-year chokehold on the game listings, preventing any new server from flourishing (meaning, for example, that I can't start a server with the original gameplay settings, i.e. pointsfix and 0 start credits and no donate, for the ideal strategic gameplay experience). You wanna talk about dictatorships, you've got a much better target right there.
ELiT3FLyR wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 16:17 Great idea TT, lets try to completely change the game so that we can incorporate our shitty pointfix into the game and try to make up for one of its many weaknesses. while ur at it, why dont u make apaches shoot as far as orcas, and make havocs skinnier so theyre harder to hit? you are meant to be fixxing the bugs in the game, not trying to change the makeup of the game to suit urself. leave the pointfix optional and let people play how they want to play. If a server wants an "invisible silo" giving them 3 credits per second then thats their choice and u can punish them on ur universal ladder or whatever, but dont try to take over ren and force people to play the game how you want them too. jelly and whats left of clanwars have already made it pretty clear theyre not going to use pointfix, why are u still trying? GTFO if you dont bother to read what other people are saying. CarrierII wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 16:29 I doubt this will be big enough: THE POINTSFIX IS OPTIONAL, ALSO, THE CONTENT OF THIS TOPIC IS SPECULATIVE, AND NOT FINAL PATCH CONTENT. Entirely true. In the beta we will make choices on what and how to implement the pointfix. Perhaps we'll make it optional (not unlikely) or perhaps we allow you to change the points/credits ratio or perhaps we'll allow you to change the base income. It will depend on the beta. Constructive coments will be taken into consideration.
Elit3flyr has a point - by implementing the pointmod you are making it harder for players to earn credits, but instead you are trying to change the original settings to compensate for it which is fine, but his point remains that you're changing other things in an attempt to make it work better i'm assuming that servers using a modified credits to points ratio will be earning a penalty on the official ladder?
liquidv2 wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 13:15 Elit3flyr has a point - by implementing the pointmod you are making it harder for players to earn credits, but instead you are trying to change the original settings to compensate for it which is fine, but his point remains that you're changing other things in an attempt to make it work better i'm assuming that servers using a modified credits to points ratio will be earning a penalty on the official ladder? That's pretty much what I'm getting at. IE best of both worlds. I like being able to buy stuff constantly and trying all sorts of rushes and being aggressive overall. Like on field sometimes Nod gets a chance to take it, but half the team is too wimpy to move out. If I move out people tend to follow, granted since I'm the first one out I'll probably die fairly quickly because of no support, but the general idea I was after was to get my team going. It's not about being able to earn credits for me, it's about how quickly. I think a lot of new players probably find they don't have enough credits anyways, which is fine...they're new. Changing the points/credit ratio is a good idea imo. Dunno why anyone didn't think of it sooner. Seems to be a fair compromise between two sides. At least in my eyes anyways.
why are u even trying to come up with solutions to the pontfix problems? fix the bugs in the game, leave pointfix optional and dont try to change anything that will effect gameplay. If a server wants to use pointfix but wants players to have more credits, then they can do the same thing storm has done to their own servers.
the problem is that most TT people have not played this game at a high level and dont understand that 3 credits a second and pointfix will change the game for people like me who prefer to play smaller organised games. to be honest i dont care what u do with the patch as long as im not forced to play with changes in the gameplay that u have decided to make in the name of "balance". This is why pointfix has to be optional. ps spoony last time we had a whos better argument u lost. im better than u with or without pointfix
Pointsfix is optional, for the record. I think it has been for a while.
the pointmod is optional, that's a fact clanwars servers won't have to use it if they don't want to unless spoony wants it they're thinking up ideas to make the pointmod easier for new players, and their thought is that giving more credits per points gained would be good (and this would probably be an option as well, a server wouldn't have to use it if they did not want to) so a grenadier shooting the ref on volcano would get like 16 points per shot instead of 8 or 7 or whatever, or maybe 10 points per shot if they don't have it doubled i think this will help better players more than newer players because they're generally doing more as a whole so they're going to be earning the extra income more than newer players so it helps everyone but it helps who's doing the most more, and it could help new players learn (which is always a good thing) i dislike things like the veteran system on atomix because good players get increased armor and health as they do better and it makes the lesser players do even worse; if you apply that same thinking to credits and points it would have kind of the same effect, but there's no real way to make things easier for newer players without making it easier for better players who will in turn do even better than the newer players but, if they can learn from it, then it's not such a bad thing
Anyone who calls it "pointmod" instead of "pointfix" (Because it's quite clearly a fix, since it fixes what's quite clearly a bug) is a huge throbbing faggot.
I think double is far too high. This would need some testing, but I guess a way to go about it would be looking at average end game scores with and without pointsfix. Say the average with, is 50k, without is 60k. Therefore you'd want a 1:1.2 ratio to make it the same.
ELiT3FLyR wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 20:27 the problem is that most TT people have not played this game at a high level and dont understand that 3 credits a second and pointfix will change the game for people like me who prefer to play smaller organised games. to be honest i dont care what u do with the patch as long as im not forced to play with changes in the gameplay that u have decided to make in the name of "balance". This is why pointfix has to be optional. ps spoony last time we had a whos better argument u lost. im better than u with or without pointfix More organized players/serveronwers would disable the increased amount of credits as well so.
well aslong as its optional then its fine. i just got the idea from the last pointfix topic and the way that this topic was opened that u guys wanted to make it mandatory
Dover wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 14:15 Anyone who calls it "pointmod" instead of "pointfix" (Because it's quite clearly a fix, since it fixes what's quite clearly a bug) is a huge throbbing faggot. i've often thought so, it's basically a politicised inaccuracy. Homey wrote It's not about being able to earn credits for me, it's about how quickly. I think a lot of new players probably find they don't have enough credits anyways, which is fine...they're new. Changing the points/credit ratio is a good idea imo. Dunno why anyone didn't think of it sooner. Seems to be a fair compromise between two sides. At least in my eyes anyways. I think double is far too high. This would need some testing, but I guess a way to go about it would be looking at average end game scores with and without pointsfix. Say the average with, is 50k, without is 60k. Therefore you'd want a 1:1.2 ratio to make it the same. i suggested 50%, what say you to that? i.e. if you do 50 points' worth of damage you'll get 75 credits for it simpee wrote why are u even trying to come up with solutions to the pontfix problems? I don't think it is a problem. I think you actually can keep your economy going just fine with the pointsfix if you know what you're doing. However I'm making yet another compromise towards the anti-pointsfix crowd, even though they've never been willing to budge an inch on their part, and have always treated me with extraordinary contempt for no justification. It's just being the better man, I guess. simpee wrote to be honest i dont care what u do with the patch as long as im not forced to play with changes in the gameplay that u have decided to make in the name of "balance". This is why pointfix has to be optional. You dodged my statement that you actually DON'T want the pointsfix to be optional. Not surprising, considering how damning it is, and how hypocritical it proves your every statement to be. simpee wrote ps spoony last time we had a whos better argument u lost. im better than u with or without pointfix You won an argument against me? I think you probably dreamt that? Three times out of ten you get caught lying through your teeth (but usually aren't put off and try again soon enough), and the other seven you simply have no fucking clue what you're talking about (but usually pretend you do) simpee wrote well aslong as its optional then its fine. i just got the idea from the last pointfix topic and the way that this topic was opened that u guys wanted to make it mandatory Again, read my statements about who's making things mandatory. The more you talk about how the pointsfix ought to be optional, the bigger a liar you look. You've already proven you want no such thing, would get in its way if you could, and have actually tried to twice. liquidv2 wrote Elit3flyr has a point - by implementing the pointmod you are making it harder for players to earn credits, but instead you are trying to change the original settings to compensate for it Again, I don't think credits need increasing. I'm just willing to make compromises for lesser-skilled players like simpee, even though he's never been willing to return the favour and indeed has actively sabotaged my choice of whether to use the pointsfix in my own community (hence proving, exactly like tildeth before him, that he's lying through his teeth when he says he wants the pointsfix to be optional) liquidv2 wrote i'm assuming that servers using a modified credits to points ratio will be earning a penalty on the official ladder? VERY good question. I don't think I made myself clear. I've been rather vocal on the fact that most modifications to the game (donate, weapon drops, stuff like that) make gameplay worse. There are a couple of modifications I think are actually ok - such as character refunds - and if we end up making an idea like this, then I think it'd be fine (i.e. no penalty) liquidv2 wrote clanwars servers won't have to use it if they don't want to unless spoony wants it read my posts to simpee and tildeth. these people are COMPLETELY opposed to the whole idea of the pointsfix being optional for each community. they might tell you they want the choice to be there, but newsflash, they're lying. (again) liquidv2 wrote they're thinking up ideas to make the pointmod easier for new players, and their thought is that giving more credits per points gained would be good (and this would probably be an option as well, a server wouldn't have to use it if they did not want to) Of course. We haven't even reached a consensus yet, just talking about it. liquidv2 wrote so a grenadier shooting the ref on volcano would get like 16 points per shot instead of 8 or 7 or whatever, or maybe 10 points per shot if they don't have it doubled I think an extra 50% is good. liquidv2 wrote i think this will help better players more than newer players because they're generally doing more as a whole so they're going to be earning the extra income more than newer players so it helps everyone but it helps who's doing the most more, and it could help new players learn (which is always a good thing) It'll help everybody learn, and in my view a lot of the "better" players have a lot more learning to do. Read my post on page one.
50% isn't a bad place to start. Really there's no point in choosing another number until we could actually test it and see. I imagine it'd be somewhere between 20% and 50%. But, it'd be hard to judge. I play pretty aggressively, but do kill lots of stuff and tend to have the money for stuff, but not much extra. Like complex for example in J1 I'll grab a med and be pretty aggressive and end up dieing a fair bit. Generally I have enough creds by the time I die for another. We'd need a server to test this on to see if it works. Another option is still changing the refinery trickle to a bit higher number (2.5?). I still prefer the points/credits ratio as it promotes good team play like spoony has mentioned, and keeps your cash higher which is what I like. Oh and if there's no penalty for this sort of thing (obviously the ratio would have to be within reason right?) then I'd be more than happy to play on a pointsfix server.
you go out of your way to say that simpee is a terrible player when he's actually better than you at the game, and you're actually quite a good player you continuously point out that some players feel that the pointmod should not be used anywhere and that everyone should be forced to use the original points; you can say the exact same thing about pro-pointmod players, but by all means keep trying to spin it around there is absolutely no way that servers modifying the credits gained while gaining points should be worth the same as servers using the pointmod and no weapons drop and no weapons spawn and no donate (and also no refunds or other outside mods) it's clearly not intended and in implementing it you're lessening the worth of said server in comparison to a clean one; either apply a ladder penalty or don't do it at all Spoony wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 16:16 Dover wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 14:15 Anyone who calls it "pointmod" instead of "pointfix" (Because it's quite clearly a fix, since it fixes what's quite clearly a bug) is a huge throbbing faggot. i've often thought so, it's basically a politicised inaccuracy. it's a modification made by renegade fans to fix the bugs in the original points system, so i call it exactly what it is whether it's what was intended or not is irrelevant because it was not released as the default point system and modifies the current one; don't lose too much sleep over it dover!111
liquidv2 wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 18:24 you go out of your way to say that simpee is a terrible player when he's actually better than you at the game, and you're actually quite a good player actually, he used to try to use this argument all the time against me. trouble is, -a- even if it were true, he's still been wrong so many times it boggles the mind, and been caught lying about nearly as many things as clearshot, and -b- there's a lot of evidence that he is not better than me, and when you point it out he goes all quiet. liquidv2 wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 18:24 you continuously point out that some players feel that the pointmod should not be used anywhere and that everyone should be forced to use the original points; you can say the exact same thing about pro-pointmod players, but by all means keep trying to spin it around sorry, what? when i see someone say the pointsfix should be a compulsory thing, i take a moment to disagree and point out that TT's policy is that it will be optional. i remind you of my reproach to jonwil. liquidv2 wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 18:24 there is absolutely no way that servers modifying the credits gained while gaining points should be worth the same as servers using the pointmod and no weapons drop and no weapons spawn and no donate (and also no refunds or other outside mods) it's clearly not intended and in implementing it you're lessening the worth of said server in comparison to a clean one; either apply a ladder penalty or don't do it at all read my posts. modifications aren't always bad for gameplay. i certainly think that MOST of them are. but if it's a "TT-approved" thing, something which I think does NOT have a downward effect on balance, then there's no reason for the ladder penalty. liquidv2 wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 18:24 it's a modification made by renegade fans to fix the bugs in the original points system, so i call it exactly what it is whether it's what was intended or not is irrelevant because it was not released as the default point system and modifies the current one; don't lose too much sleep over it dover!111 like i said, politicised inaccuracy.
if it's not what we believe to be original intended renegade then it should be worth less on the overall ladder it doesn't seem that hard to understand; the reasons why it could be or is a good thing are not at all relevant because the fact remains...it's not what we believe to be original, intended renegade
Spoony wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 18:32 read my posts. modifications aren't always bad for gameplay. i certainly think that MOST of them are. but if it's a "TT-approved" thing, something which I think does NOT have a downward effect on balance, then there's no reason for the ladder penalty. well if it's what TT wants then they can do it, seeing as how it's their ladder after all, but don't call those servers pure if they run mods on credit income Spoony wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 18:32 liquidv2 wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 18:24 it's a modification made by renegade fans to fix the bugs in the original points system, so i call it exactly what it is whether it's what was intended or not is irrelevant because it was not released as the default point system and modifies the current one; don't lose too much sleep over it dover!111 like i said, politicised inaccuracy. nope
liquidv2 wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 18:34 if it's not what we believe to be original intended renegade then it should be worth less on the overall ladder it doesn't seem that hard to understand ...you're ignoring my explanation. liquidv2 wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 18:34 ; the reasons why it could be or is a good thing are not at all relevant because the fact remains...it's not what we believe to be original, intended renegade well, westwood actually made some glaring oversights on the official ladder which i plan on correcting. liquidv2 wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 18:34 well if it's what TT wants then they can do it, seeing as how it's their ladder after all, but don't call those servers pure if they run mods on credit income i don't plan on calling them "pure".
Spoony wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 18:43 liquidv2 wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 18:34 if it's not what we believe to be original intended renegade then it should be worth less on the overall ladder it doesn't seem that hard to understand ...you're ignoring my explanation. your explanation is completely irrelevant to the point Spoony wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 18:43 well, westwood actually made some glaring oversights on the official ladder which i plan on correcting. like?
liquidv2 wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 19:22 your explanation is completely irrelevant to the point ...the fact you think it's irrelevant simply proves you didn't read it. liquidv2 wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 19:22 Spoony wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 18:43 well, westwood actually made some glaring oversights on the official ladder which i plan on correcting. like? the biggest mistake they made is having it so that the highest scoring players on the team barely lose any ladder. this is a terrible blunder; it means ladder is all about gamespam, and a player can get to the top simply by getting a high individual score even if the team loses. my solution: all players on the losing team lose the same amount of ladder regardless of individual score (although there may be a concession if the player has only just joined). winratio will become massively more important, gamespam less so, and your score will only matter if your team wins.
Spoony wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 19:39 liquidv2 wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 19:22 your explanation is completely irrelevant to the point ...the fact you think it's irrelevant simply proves you didn't read it. no, it doesn't you're lying or mistaken in regards to the players with the highest points losing the least ladder - that's a mistake in your opinion, but not in theirs otherwise they wouldn't have made it that way it's not always the fault of the player that his or her team loses, and perhaps westwood didn't want them to suffer overall because of it
To be frank, I've been playing with pointfix for about 2 years now on TK2 server and as surprising as it may seem to many of you, I adapted to it quite nicely. When I'm low on money, which doesn't happen an awful lot of times, I run out with basic infantry to do something useful (beit repairing a vehicle, sneaking through tunnels / field, attacking the harvester, using a GDI rifle against arts, sneaking behind camping vehicles to remote c4 them) and my money trickles up without me noticing it. We also have donate and my teammates do tend to donate me from time to time because I donate to them myself when possible. And I'm one of the people who tends to die quite often because I usually am the first one in a group of players to rush / take the field. It actually makes sens to me to not get my vehicle killed and retreat to repair it from time to time. Economy is an important part of the gameplay since we added the pointfix. Just like it has been in all C&C RTS games. The only reason why this topic was made, was because some people fear that newer players will get discouraged if they fail to handle their economy, which honestly seems like a fair possibility. Noone ever said that anyone would be forced to use this "newcomer friendly" option, nor the pointfix in the first place. And a big LOL to the guy who claims that he needs the points bug at high level games. If you cannot adapt to a change that actually makes sens then you suck quite hard.
liquidv2 wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 16:24 Spoony wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 16:16 Dover wrote on Sun, 04 October 2009 14:15 Anyone who calls it "pointmod" instead of "pointfix" (Because it's quite clearly a fix, since it fixes what's quite clearly a bug) is a huge throbbing faggot. i've often thought so, it's basically a politicised inaccuracy. it's a modification made by renegade fans to fix the bugs in the original points system, so i call it exactly what it is whether it's what was intended or not is irrelevant because it was not released as the default point system and modifies the current one; don't lose too much sleep over it dover!111 It's a modification in the same sense that any patch is a modification. The only reason it's done by fans is because Westwood is long dead and EA doesn't give two shits about us. This is the only way bugs (Especially the glaringly obvious ones like the pointbug) are ever going to be fixed. Stop politicizing the issue when it's open and shut. It's a bug, therefore it should be fixed. Your mental gymnastics on whether it being intended or not is irrelevant. The bug is going to be fixed, and either you're going to learn to like it or go cry in a corner. That's the choice set before you. Also, I'd like to formally request a mod give liquidv2 the custom title "Huge Throbbing Faggot". He walked into it.
@liquidV2: You're a hypocrite you know? You say that Renegade is designed for 16VS16 players. Then why do your holy Jelly servers have player limits of 58 and 46? And now you're complaining about all this being modifications. Yes these are modifications, but I know that they don't have any problem with that at Jelly. Something about Orca's and armourmods.
Hey, sorry to break up the pointsfix arguments where everyone against it is retarded and incapable of holding any form of decent opinion backed with reason and logic debates, but this topic wasn't made to argue pointsfix. It was made for ideas as to how new and old players can make a bit more cash earlier on without having to shoot at something doing nearly no damage.
EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 05 October 2009 04:11 @liquidv2: You're a hypocrite you know? You say that Renegade is designed for 16VS16 players. Then why do your holy Jelly servers have player limits of 58 and 46? And now you're complaining about all this being modifications. Yes these are modifications, but I know that they don't have any problem with that at Jelly. Something about Orca's and armourmods. marathon is set to almost 60 players but has never tested the pointmod; jelly 1 was set at 40 players when the pointmod was used on there for over a year and a half, and it was not full most of the time (it was usually somewhere above halfway full and full, so somewhere around 13 to 17 per side) if you've been in the server in the past two years you would probably notice that there is no modification to armor in any way (it was in place years ago but disappeared when the pointmod was first used and has not been used since) but by all means keep going with information that has been irrelevant for over two years now
GEORGE ZIMMER wrote on Mon, 05 October 2009 06:23 Hey, sorry to break up the pointsfix arguments where everyone against it is retarded and incapable of holding any form of decent opinion backed with reason and logic debates, but this topic wasn't made to argue pointsfix. It was made for ideas as to how new and old players can make a bit more cash earlier on without having to shoot at something doing nearly no damage. we have two viable options - getting more credits than the 1 credit per point ratio, or having half a credit or a full credit income every second added to the standard 2 from the refinery i've seen the latter work quite well in the Atomix server, and that server runs the pointmod i hope that's looked into as well, but both ideas make sense hey Spoony, i'm willing to bet this guy would vote in favor of the original points being abolished and everyone being forced to use the pointmod
liquidv2 wrote on Mon, 05 October 2009 13:29 EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 05 October 2009 04:11 @liquidv2: You're a hypocrite you know? You say that Renegade is designed for 16VS16 players. Then why do your holy Jelly servers have player limits of 58 and 46? And now you're complaining about all this being modifications. Yes these are modifications, but I know that they don't have any problem with that at Jelly. Something about Orca's and armourmods. marathon is set to almost 60 players but has never tested the pointmod; jelly 1 was set at 40 players when the pointmod was used on there for over a year and a half, and it was not full most of the time (it was usually somewhere above halfway full and full, so somewhere around 13 to 17 per side) if you've been in the server in the past two years you would probably notice that there is no modification to armor in any way (it was in place years ago but disappeared when the pointmod was first used and has not been used since) but by all means keep going with information that has been irrelevant for over two years now You're saying that you still don't want to use the pointfix because you want to and keep loads of credits and not "modify the original intended gameplay". At the same time you're also saying that I don't know shit because I'm not playing the way it was intended with 16VS16 players. Now I'm pointing out that you don't do that either. So either you're a hypocrite, or your arguments are invalid. Both mean you're wrong.
liquidv2 wrote on Mon, 05 October 2009 06:38 hey Spoony, i'm willing to bet this guy would vote in favor of the original points being abolished and everyone being forced to use the pointmod so? there isn't going to be a vote about that. he doesn't have any authority to change that decision, and as far as i can see he's not actually trying to actively subvert it. he's just talking about it. people on the anti-pointsfix crowd HAVE BEEN CAUGHT DOING THAT, and it amazes me that nobody has a bad word to say about it... the silence speaks volumes. if the difference isn't clear to you, let me illustrate it. (angerfist = cheater, banned on the clanwars league) it's the same as the difference between these two things: 1. MVR says: "spoony, i don't think angerfist should be banned" and... 2. MVR secretly allows angerfist into his clan in spite of the ban, subverting the admin's authority
Quote: And a big LOL to the guy who claims that he needs the points bug at high level games. If you cannot adapt to a change that actually makes sens then you suck quite hard. its not about adapting to gameplay, its about pointfix imbalenicing the game for clanwars, something you wouldnt know the slightest about. You are someone who has sat in public servers, got a few mvps and think you understand how the game works. This is not the case. For example, you cannot see the problem that is caused in smaller games when two meds get around the same amount of points for hitting a techd arty in pointfix. This is something spoony has tried to argue against time and time again but has been unable to persuade anyone that theyre not overpowered, even dodging my request to proove it to him in-game. you need to understand that spoony is a master of spin and is trying to make anti-pointfix people look like liars and renegade terroists when all we want to do is play the game the way we want to play it. spoony how can i possibly be lying when i say i dont care what TT do aslong as im not forced to play with any game-play changes(pointfix included) imposed by them? last time i looked it was u trying to force all the servers to use pointfix, not me forcing them not to use pointfix. and spoony, on jelly forums after our 25 page thriller of spoony vs 50 you asked me why jelly wouldnt want to play on a universal ladder. i think i have your answer, its because they wouldnt want to play under a league run by douchebags like u. you say that servers that give u 350 starting credits will be punished, yet in this topic u say that 3 credits per seconds or whatever wont be punished on ur ladder? furthermore ur still trying to justify saying that and somehow managing to turn these TT people that u seem to have wrapped around ur little finger against liquid. ill say this again to all the TT people actually working on the patch. all you have to do is fix the bugs in the game. This is your role. dont get involved in a pointfix debate that you can never win (spoony has never managed to win one and hes a decent player) nor bother suggesting solutions for the faults in pointfix. just fix the damn bugs and you will all be remmebered as renegade heroes.
ELiT3FLyR wrote on Mon, 05 October 2009 17:08 Quote: And a big LOL to the guy who claims that he needs the points bug at high level games. If you cannot adapt to a change that actually makes sens then you suck quite hard. its not about adapting to gameplay, its about pointfix imbalenicing the game for clanwars, something you wouldnt know the slightest about. You are someone who has sat in public servers, got a few mvps and think you understand how the game works. This is not the case. For example, you cannot see the problem that is caused in smaller games when two meds get around the same amount of points for hitting a techd arty in pointfix. This is something spoony has tried to argue against time and time again but has been unable to persuade anyone that theyre not overpowered, even dodging my request to proove it to him in-game. you need to understand that spoony is a master of spin and is trying to make anti-pointfix people look like liars and renegade terroists when all we want to do is play the game the way we want to play it. spoony how can i possibly be lying when i say i dont care what TT do aslong as im not forced to play with any game-play changes(pointfix included) imposed by them? last time i looked it was u trying to force all the servers to use pointfix, not me forcing them not to use pointfix. and spoony, on jelly forums after our 25 page thriller of spoony vs 50 you asked me why jelly wouldnt want to play on a universal ladder. i think i have your answer, its because they wouldnt want to play under a league run by douchebags like u. you say that servers that give u 350 starting credits will be punished, yet in this topic u say that 3 credits per seconds or whatever wont be punished on ur ladder? furthermore ur still trying to justify saying that and somehow managing to turn these TT people that u seem to have wrapped around ur little finger against liquid. ill say this again to all the TT people actually working on the patch. all you have to do is fix the bugs in the game. This is your role. dont get involved in a pointfix debate that you can never win (spoony has never managed to win one and hes a decent player) nor bother suggesting solutions for the faults in pointfix. just fix the damn bugs and you will all be remmebered as renegade heroes. Just die ok? If you think that it is logical that you get a different amount of points for shooting armour than health you are truly retarded. Or that one weapon should get more points than another, dispite it does less damage. (doing damage is the point of the game right? So it makes sense to reward people that do damage right?) Anyway, all suggestions done here where because people had valid complaints on the pointfix. It is indeed (a bit) harder to get credits with the pointfix. If that is the only problem then lets change that. That is what we discusted here. Almost everyone but you sees that there is indeed a point bug. Some like it because it gives them enough credits, that's fair enough. You just like to troll around without any decent arguments. Imbalance itself is not caused by the pointfix. It only changes the points/money you get. It does barely effect balance directly. Oh, and the coders are doing their job. They are fixing a bug. That you like that particular bug is _YOUR_ problem. There surely are people that like Blue Hell as well. Don't think we should keep it though...
I like blue hell! It makes my screen go pretty colours!
you dont understand it unbalences the game for clanwars and smaller games. thats why i get annoyed when i see people like you thinking that you know whats best and changing the game for people like me. my problem is not with the coders, theyre doing a good job fixing bugs such as bluescreen which is what they promised to do. its with people like you and spoony who dont understand how pointfix/3 credits a second/increaded money to point ratio can effect gameplay for us, and then trying to force pointfix into a patch. if your comeback to this is well pointfix and 3 credits per seconds is optional then stop trying to justify it to me and get on with it.
ELiT3FLyR wrote on Mon, 05 October 2009 10:08 its not about adapting to gameplay, its about pointfix imbalenicing the game for clanwars, something you wouldnt know the slightest about. who's talking about clanwars? ELiT3FLyR wrote on Mon, 05 October 2009 10:08 You are someone who has sat in public servers, got a few mvps and think you understand how the game works. This is not the case. For example, you cannot see the problem that is caused in smaller games when two meds get around the same amount of points for hitting a techd arty in pointfix. This is something spoony has tried to argue against time and time again but has been unable to persuade anyone that theyre not overpowered firstly simpee, did someone else type this for you? it certainly seems that way. anyway, is all that why you've been proven wrong again and again and again? the most recent time was when you tried to say: if there's a teched arty vs two meds, the arty on its own gets more points than the meds do. this is, of course, COMPLETELY wrong. what's more, even when you factor in the points the tech is getting, the meds still get more points overall. now you've totally changed your story to "they get around the same amount of points". uh, your original statement was "the arty gets much more" and you turned out to be completely wrong. ELiT3FLyR wrote on Mon, 05 October 2009 10:08 even dodging my request to proove it to him in-game. dude, EVERY SINGLE TIME you've posted this lie, you've been caught. why do you persist? are you SO THICK that you can't realise how much damage you are doing to your own case by continually lying to the community? ELiT3FLyR wrote on Mon, 05 October 2009 10:08 you need to understand that spoony is a master of spin and is trying to make anti-pointfix people look like liars ...k buddy, whatever you say. doesn't change the fact you HAVE been caught lying AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN. you saying this would be like packer saying "LOL SPOONYS TRYING TO MAKE PEOPLE LOOK LIKE CHEATERS". he can say that if he likes, it wouldn't change the fact i DID catch him cheating. ELiT3FLyR wrote on Mon, 05 October 2009 10:08 and renegade terroists when all we want to do is play the game the way we want to play it. what a surprise that you continue to dodge my statements about the pointsfix in clanwars, and how it proved that you OPPOSE the idea of each community having the choice to use the pointsfix or not, AND what you said at jelly along the same lines (i.e. nobody should be allowed to use the pointsfix because then there will be less servers without the pointsfix for you to play on) ELiT3FLyR wrote on Mon, 05 October 2009 10:08 last time i looked it was u trying to force all the servers to use pointfix All this proves is that you simply DO NOT READ WHAT I SAY. or, perhaps, are just too thick to understand simple statements. ELiT3FLyR wrote on Mon, 05 October 2009 10:08 not me forcing them not to use pointfix. see above re: you keep dodging the statement about pointsfix in clanwars ELiT3FLyR wrote on Mon, 05 October 2009 10:08 and spoony, on jelly forums after our 25 page thriller of spoony vs 50 you asked me why jelly wouldnt want to play on a universal ladder. uh no, i asked why jelly disconnected themselves from the ladder before i said anything about the pointsfix. nice lie though ELiT3FLyR wrote on Mon, 05 October 2009 10:08 i think i have your answer, its because they wouldnt want to play under a league run by douchebags like u. douchebag? um, i was the only person who could be bothered hosting a league for lying scum like you, and all you did by way of thanks was break the rules all the time. who's the douchebag here? idiot ELiT3FLyR wrote on Mon, 05 October 2009 10:08 you say that servers that give u 350 starting credits will be punished, yet in this topic u say that 3 credits per seconds or whatever wont be punished on ur ladder? no.... read my posts ELiT3FLyR wrote on Mon, 05 October 2009 10:08 dont get involved in a pointfix debate that you can never win (spoony has never managed to win one and hes a decent player) rofl, you've got the IQ of a chimp. i've won pretty much every debate on the pointsfix, and you've always lost. again: three times out of ten you get caught lying through your teeth, and the other seven you simply have no fucking clue what you're talking about. i've literally lost count of the number of times you have been proven ABSOLUTELY DEAD WRONG about something. i've also lost count of the number of times you've outright lied to try to get people on your side, and you ALWAYS get caught. i have no idea why getting caught doesn't put you off, you simply don't see how much damage it's doing to your case. i dunno why, i've pointed it out to you plenty of times... for your own good, but there's just no helping some people. ELiT3FLyR wrote you dont understand it unbalences the game for clanwars and smaller games. MOVING THE GOALPOSTS. we aren't talking about clanwars. and as for smaller games, you're still wrong. AND YET THE POINTSFIX IS STILL OPTIONAL! jesus, how can you be SO THICK, simpee? ELiT3FLyR wrote its with people like you and spoony who dont understand how pointfix/3 credits a second/increaded money to point ratio can effect gameplay for us, and then trying to force pointfix into a patch. IT ISN'T GOING TO BE FORCED! IT WILL STILL BE OPTIONAL! IT ISN'T GOING TO BE FORCED! IT WILL STILL BE OPTIONAL! IT ISN'T GOING TO BE FORCED! IT WILL STILL BE OPTIONAL! IT ISN'T GOING TO BE FORCED! IT WILL STILL BE OPTIONAL! IT ISN'T GOING TO BE FORCED! IT WILL STILL BE OPTIONAL! IT ISN'T GOING TO BE FORCED! IT WILL STILL BE OPTIONAL! IT ISN'T GOING TO BE FORCED! IT WILL STILL BE OPTIONAL! IT ISN'T GOING TO BE FORCED! IT WILL STILL BE OPTIONAL! IT ISN'T GOING TO BE FORCED! IT WILL STILL BE OPTIONAL! IT ISN'T GOING TO BE FORCED! IT WILL STILL BE OPTIONAL! IT ISN'T GOING TO BE FORCED! IT WILL STILL BE OPTIONAL! IT ISN'T GOING TO BE FORCED! IT WILL STILL BE OPTIONAL! HOLY SHIT simpee, do you have a severe learning disability or something?
ELiT3FLyR wrote on Mon, 05 October 2009 17:50 you dont understand it unbalences the game for clanwars and smaller games. thats why i get annoyed when i see people like you thinking that you know whats best and changing the game for people like me. my problem is not with the coders, theyre doing a good job fixing bugs such as bluescreen which is what they promised to do. its with people like you and spoony who dont understand how pointfix/3 credits a second/increaded money to point ratio can effect gameplay for us, and then trying to force pointfix into a patch. if your comeback to this is well pointfix and 3 credits per seconds is optional then stop trying to justify it to me and get on with it. The 3 credits thing/increased income was a suggestion for the poeple that are anti pointfix because they then fail to make enough money. I would never set that on my own server, simply because I think it's not needed. Hell, did you ever play on my server? Most certainly not, otherwise you'd know that we have the pointfix, have the smaller games, and quite a lot of regular people that keep coming back. So apparently quite a lot of people disagree with you on the smaller games thing. Oh and I do understand how the pointfix works in clan games. You can't use APCs alone in under to win, which works pretty well without pointfix.
clan games are totally irrelevant to the debate. if pointsfix is optional - and of course it will be - then if someone else other than me decides they want to host a clan league, they can choose whether to use pointsfix or not. of course, last time that happened, ELiT3FLyR actively tried to sabotage it, subverting the admin's decisions. this is what you need to remember when he cries about how the pointsfix ought to be optional. TT thinks so, but he doesn't.
perhaps we have different victory conditions when it comes to pointfix debates. Yours seems to be proove that simpee pointpushed 3 games in 2004 and hope people wont listen to him because of this, whilst mine is to make sure everyone realises that pointfix has a negative effect on the game. you can call me a liar all you want, but in my book you havent won a single pointfix argument because everytime you have bought a pointfix debate to a jelly or clanwar forum your the one who gets told to wank off, not me, clear or anyother anti gay-fix person. if the pointfix is optional like 1 of the guys told me earlier then fucking leave me alone and stop bringing me back into these arguments by saying i suck and all the rest of what u said. My post on page 2 was going to be my last post as soon as i was sure that 3 creds a sec and pointfix was not going to be mandatory as the previous pointfix topic and the start of this topic suggested in the way it was said. youve always had a "flair for dramatics" as joetorp put it, this is evident as u knew that jelly already refused ur ladder idea but u posted on there anyway because u knew it would annoy people and spark a reaction. now stfu and stop bringing me up everysingle time the word pointfix comes up in one of ur posts. all someone has to do is merely look at ur posts to see that u on purposely drag people into arguments by constantly mentioning them and calling them shit. why TT choose you of all people to work with is beyond me.
obviously you dont know how it works in clanwars because 1) under is rarely played as a clanwar map 2) you wouldnt win under with 2 apcs
thanks for prooving my renegade terroist point spoony. You might be able to get these guys to believe u and think that im cheatin scum against any kind of game development but anyone who actually knows me knows this is not the case. I was one of the MAJORITY at clanwars that said pointfix sucks. i dont understand why you thought that forcing all of clanwars to play pointfix when you didnt even have the support of the server owners would ever work. if there was one server left on renegade and the owner decdied mammies should only cost 200 credits would you not do everything you could to get this reversed so that you could continue to play and enjoy the game? thats all that happened at clanwars.
I think a triple post is a good point to close this topic.
ELiT3FLyR wrote perhaps we have different victory conditions when it comes to pointfix debates. Yours seems to be proove that simpee pointpushed 3 games in 2004 and hope people wont listen to him because of this that's pretty low down on the list of things that need to be said about you. i didn't even mention the fact you pointpushed in that other thread... you did. why you thought this would be a good thing to bring up is beyond me... i'd rather talk about your continual failure to report games, your subversion of my decisions on the pointsfix, the fact you're always lying through your teeth to make me look bad, and the fact that every time you do something pathetic and you get caught, you act like it's someone else's fault. ELiT3FLyR wrote whilst mine is to make sure everyone realises that pointfix has a negative effect on the game. and let's say everybody believes you, no matter how many times your maths falls apart or you get caught lying about something. what's the problem? IT'LL BE OPTIONAL! ELiT3FLyR wrote you can call me a liar all you want thanks. it's a necessary rebuttal to a great deal of the things you say. ELiT3FLyR wrote but in my book you havent won a single pointfix argument because everytime you have bought a pointfix debate to a jelly or clanwar forum your the one who gets told to wank off, not me, clear or anyother anti gay-fix person. so? none of this changes the fact that everything I say invariably turns out to be true, most of what the anti-pointsfix crowd says turns out to be either totally misinformed or outright lies. it's amazing you have the nerve to mention clearshot, considering what he did in that thread. the fact nobody flamed him for that proves only one thing: you can get away with the most EXTRAORDINARY bullshit so long as you're against the pointsfix. he lied through his teeth AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN, making a huge list of ridiculous and false accusations against me, all these corrupt admin abuses i did. YOU KNEW every word he said was lie, you KNEW i was innocent on all charges, but not only did you NOT say so, you actually LIED to try to cover for him. which, if you remember, is EXACTLY WHAT I PREDICTED YOU WOULD DO. why are you even bringing this up? it's INCREDIBLY damning against you. but you're just too thick to realise that... you just don't realise how crippling it is to your credibility every time you try to get away with bullshit like this. ELiT3FLyR wrote if the pointfix is optional like 1 of the guys told me earlier uh, i think you mean "like spoony told me again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again" ELiT3FLyR wrote then fucking leave me alone and stop bringing me back into these arguments by saying i suck y'know when people on renegade forums say 'lol' they aren't really laughing out loud, right? well, this sentence actually did make me laugh out loud. I knew your insecurity about your reneskills was your biggest weakness, but I didn't realise it would hit you THIS hard... (after reading that sentence i almost feel guilty now, lol...) anyway, you're the one who started with the whole "im better than u" crap. Remember? You got proven wrong, and instead of acknowledging it you changed your position to "im better than u, case closed". Shame you couldn't even make THAT stick. ELiT3FLyR wrote youve always had a "flair for dramatics" as joetorp put it, this is evident as u knew that jelly already refused ur ladder idea but u posted on there anyway because u knew it would annoy people and spark a reaction. no, I was making YET ANOTHER compromise to people who despise me. i'm just the better man, and I even get flamed for proving that rather telling you mentioned joetorp, because his situation is exactly the same as yours. i've caught both of you lying through your teeth again and again and again, and you somehow come to the conclusion that i'm the bad guy for catching you. you make yourself look even more pathetic by doing so, and you're obviously too thick to see that. ELiT3FLyR wrote obviously you dont know how it works in clanwars because 1) under is rarely played as a clanwar map funny, neither was mesa until people decided it was an argument against the pointsfix, then suddenly it's the most important map. whereas when maps like field and wallsfly are DEFINITELY made fairer by the pointsfix, and actually ARE played a lot in clanwars, they don't matter. ELiT3FLyR wrote thanks for prooving my renegade terroist point spoony. You might be able to get these guys to believe u and think that im cheatin scum against any kind of game development but anyone who actually knows me knows this is not the case. um, breaking rules = cheating, and you broke the rules in my league ALL THE TIME. and every time you got caught you acted like it was someone else's fault, usually either mine or whiskey's. ELiT3FLyR wrote I was one of the MAJORITY at clanwars that said pointfix sucks. i dont understand why you thought that forcing all of clanwars to play pointfix when you didnt even have the support of the server owners would ever work. if there was one server left on renegade and the owner decdied mammies should only cost 200 credits would you not do everything you could to get this reversed so that you could continue to play and enjoy the game? thats all that happened at clanwars. your behaviour was COMPLETELY INDEFENSIBLE, and it PROVES you DO NOT support the idea of each community having the individual choice. YOU-DO-NOT. here we go again. i've posted all this before, but you keep dodging it because you know there's absolutely nothing you can say in your own defence. - spoony, the rightful league owner, decides he wants to use the pointsfix in the clanwars league. he also encourages open debate on the subject. - nobody can successfully argue against it. everything they say is proven wrong, and they also make a habit of completely not listening to what the opposition is saying - the community starts a campaign of lies, manipulation and sabotage. endlessly lying to try to influence opinion, ridiculous character assassination, rigging polls and then lying about the results, and most crucial, lying to the server owners to get it unbanned. most of the people doing this had a really shitty reputation in terms of fairplay, too. - later, spoony tries again, suggests testing of the full pointsfix (i.e. with the vehicle-alignment modification). community refuses to test it. they later lie and say they did. - later still, a few people actually tries to use this whole sorry episode as an argument against the pointsfix. WHAT?! some people are just masochists. now, who do you support here? a: the rightful league owner and admin, who made a choice of whether to use the pointsfix or not b: a group of people, all of whom had colourful rap sheets of breaking rules, ignoring the admin's decision and subverting his authority, through a campaign of lies and manipulation if you support B, then... well, that's your opinion. but it means four things. 1. you place no value on honesty or evidence 2. you place no value on fair play 3. you have no regard for the authority of the rightful league owner, even though he's the only person who could ever be bothered hosting a league for you 4. (most importantly, here and now) YOU DO NOT SUPPORT THE IDEA OF EACH COMMUNITY CHOOSING WHETHER TO USE THE POINTSFIX! ELiT3FLyR wrote if there was one server left on renegade and the owner decdied mammies should only cost 200 credits would you not do everything you could to get this reversed so that you could continue to play and enjoy the game? thats all that happened at clanwars. what would i do? start another server. (presumably if there was only one server left, then the jelly community's unwarranted, unchallengeable 4-year chokehold on the game listings wouldn't be a hindrance to that anymore). why didn't YOU host a league with the pointsbug? i asked this question a lot of times to idiots like you, and every single time i did, it completely stumped them. it's a real debate-stopper. do you know why clanwars started at all? it's because the WOL ladder was crap. so CLAN WARS had an idea: start another one and run it better. you ask me "what would you do?" THIS IS WHAT WE DID DO, and because we did, you had a league to play on. Nobody else gave a shit about you. NOBODY. Considering the appalling way you behave, it's easy to see why, but you still owe me nothing but thanks. instead what do you do? you disregard rules you don't like and then you act like it's everyone else's fault when you get caught, and then, the pinnacle of your stupidity, you act like your opinion on the rules you keep breaking is even worth listening to. you CONTINUALLY lie to the community either to try to make me look bad. you even tried doing what clearshot was doing, AND defended him even though you knew he was lying and i was telling the truth... which is yet another hammer blow to your credibility. you even had the nerve to say "it's convenient for you the old smak forums are gone so everyone can't see you're lying and clear's telling the truth". i must say, THAT was pretty cunning by your intellectual standards (which, let's not mince words, are pretty low). what a pity it didn't work and both you and clear were caught. here's a question, simpee: why do you think you deserve everything i did for you? after the disgusting way you've treated me, and still do, don't you think it's astonishing that i'm the only person who could be bothered hosting a clan league for you? but anyway, you've done more than enough to ensure that anything you say about the pointsfix can be completely disregarded. i warned you again and again and again and again that every time you lie to the community or dodge the fact you get proven wrong, you make your case weaker. perhaps you should've listened, because you've finally hit the zero point. so this is what's gonna happen: 1. apologise for everything you've done, apologise to me for every time you lied to the community to try to make me look bad, apologise to me for trying to subvert the clanwars league, and apologise to the community for lying when you said you want the pointsfix to be optional 2. i, and the rest of TT, will no longer even read what you say at all. we won't read it, we won't reply to it, we will simply put you on ignore, and if anyone tries posting on your behalf we'll do the same to them. you've proven over and over and over again that you simply don't deserve to lower the standards of this debate by your very participation, and this is your last chance to prove otherwise. i say "last" because god knows you've had - and wasted - enough chances already.
maybe if u read what i was saying sentence by sentence rather than qutoe 5 words and reply my posts would make more sense to u. you always start all the shit. i came here because i was worried that TT was seriously considering making 3 creds a second mandatory and i was no longer going to post when i realised that id got the wrong end of the stick. you however, when seeing that i say pointfix sux decide to jump right in and defend ur stupid pointmod with all guns blazing. when you say to me that i suck in tanks because im not doing much damage therfore not getting much points, do u seriously expect me to sit there and take it when its obviously not true? you obviously want me to react to it and for some reason it works on me everytime. why dont u show me and everyone else that you are better than me and that pointfix is fair and that techd arties arent overpowered by playing me mesa 2v2? is this not the perfect oppurtunity to smash my argument into little pieces? its funny that youve never taken this chance despite me offering it to u every single time. is there even anypoint in arguing about anything else? anyone who has a different view of the same thing is a liar or worse. u cannot see anything from anyone elses point of view, and as someone who is working on a patch that is quite worrying.
ps. theres no need to ban me from the forum, aslong as u dont make any stupid gameplay changes i wont post here again
GEORGE ZIMMER wrote on Mon, 05 October 2009 17:24 ...Did anyone even READ my post? No, and the best way is to just get to earlier players to donate money.
ELiT3FLyR wrote on Mon, 05 October 2009 13:53 maybe if u read what i was saying sentence by sentence rather than qutoe 5 words and reply my posts would make more sense to u. ITT: People who don't read other people's post accusing other people of not reading their posts.
Dover wrote on Mon, 05 October 2009 22:17 ELiT3FLyR wrote on Mon, 05 October 2009 13:53 maybe if u read what i was saying sentence by sentence rather than qutoe 5 words and reply my posts would make more sense to u. ITT: People who don't read other people's post accusing other people of not reading their posts. This. If you haven't noticed, this topic is NOT meant to argue pointsfix. Go to one of the trillions of other topics so Spoony can prove you're an incompetent jackass. Here, let me put that in a way you can hopefully understand. THIS TOPIC IS NOT MEANT TO ARGUE POINTSFIX, NO MATTER HOW RIGHT YOU THINK YOU ARE (AND YOU'RE PROBABLY NOT). IT'S MEANT TO DISCUSS HOW POINTSFIX CAN FIX ANY FLAWS AND PROBLEMS ANTI-POINTSFIX PEOPLE MAY HAVE. The fact that almost none of you lot are willing to compromise proves to me you're just as bad as the people who refuse to listen to an album from a band because it sounds a little different than their previous album, and therefore you have absolutely no right to post in these forums... much less a topic made to compromise. Fuck, the more you jackasses post, the more I'm willing to totally be cool with it if TT makes pointsfix mandatory. PROTIP: YOU CAN MAKE A POINTS UNFIX IF YOU SO DESPERATELY WANT IT AND TT MAKES IT MANDATORY ANYWAYS.
GEORGE ZIMMER wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 05:34 Dover wrote on Mon, 05 October 2009 22:17 ELiT3FLyR wrote on Mon, 05 October 2009 13:53 maybe if u read what i was saying sentence by sentence rather than qutoe 5 words and reply my posts would make more sense to u. ITT: People who don't read other people's post accusing other people of not reading their posts. This. If you haven't noticed, this topic is NOT meant to argue pointsfix. Go to one of the trillions of other topics so Spoony can prove you're an incompetent jackass. Here, let me put that in a way you can hopefully understand. THIS TOPIC IS NOT MEANT TO ARGUE POINTSFIX, NO MATTER HOW RIGHT YOU THINK YOU ARE (AND YOU'RE PROBABLY NOT). IT'S MEANT TO DISCUSS HOW POINTSFIX CAN FIX ANY FLAWS AND PROBLEMS ANTI-POINTSFIX PEOPLE MAY HAVE. The fact that almost none of you lot are willing to compromise proves to me you're just as bad as the people who refuse to listen to an album from a band because it sounds a little different than their previous album, and therefore you have absolutely no right to post in these forums... much less a topic made to compromise. Fuck, the more you jackasses post, the more I'm willing to totally be cool with it if TT makes pointsfix mandatory. PROTIP: YOU CAN MAKE A POINTS UNFIX IF YOU SO DESPERATELY WANT IT AND TT MAKES IT MANDATORY ANYWAYS. LET ME QUOTE THAT SO SOME OF THE LESSER MENTALLY GIFTED PEOPLE WILL HAVE A BETTER CHANCE OF READING THIS.
I looked for a way to split this topic, but didn't find one. It seems to have naturally evolved into flaming people. Therefor it will be locked now. Let's remember the good things that were written down: 1. Pointfix will be optional anyway 2. Servers who choose to implement point fix may choose - still optionally - to either keep the game as it is, with point fix, or adapt the amount of credits people gain to keep things more enjoyable for new comers 3. there's two main ways to adapt this amount of credits: a higher amount of credits per second or a higher amount of points / credits per damage done where the 2nd option seems the more effective one It's a pity we couldn't continue the original topic .
To be continued here: http://www.renegadeforums.com/index.php?t=msg&th=34870&start=0&rid=4 882