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RenegadeX-Pre-release --> "Is the GDI/Nod autorifle thing balanced?" debate
Will the basic assault rifles for Nod and GDI soldiers do equal damage? I hope so...so it's equal and the player with better aim wins.
I think the difference in damage points was to encourage different tactics when using each weapon. A Nod soldier would have to focus more on a guerrilla style attack while the GDI soldier could just run and gun.
pawkyfox wrote on Sun, 30 August 2009 18:39 Will the basic assault rifles for Nod and GDI soldiers do equal damage? I hope so...so it's equal and the player with better aim wins. Yes they are equal, and as you may have noticed the Nod soldier's head isn't big like in Renegade.
How does that balance out? If GDI had a stronger rifle, and Nod's infantry had bigger heads, doesn't that mean Nod got hit with a double wammy? GDI could do more damage and have a larger target to hit. I could understand if Nod had the stronger rifle to makeup for the larger heads, but that isn't the case.
That's Renegade for you We won't be repeating the same mistakes. Quote: A Nod soldier would have to focus more on a guerrilla style attack while the GDI soldier could just run and gun. It would work in theory if the maps weren't symmetrical. Nod infantry would need a map-advantage over GDI for the damage to work absolutely equally. But that would imbalance other factors of the game as well.
[NE Fobby[GEN] wrote on Sun, 30 August 2009 17:43] pawkyfox wrote on Sun, 30 August 2009 18:39 Will the basic assault rifles for Nod and GDI soldiers do equal damage? I hope so...so it's equal and the player with better aim wins. Yes they are equal, and as you may have noticed the Nod soldier's head isn't big like in Renegade. That's good. Fobby...thx for clarifying. I am also glad you feel that the game plays well.
I'm just hoping that it's close to what Renegade has. With bugs and glitches fixed, of course. Will have to see how the game's been balanced. Removing the upper hand of GDI soldiers makes it that much easier for Nod to win games. And IMO, Nod is strong in Renegade already. Depends on the map, though.
i hope i don't need to explain why gdi had better base infantry...
[NE Fobby[GEN] wrote on Mon, 31 August 2009 00:43] pawkyfox wrote on Sun, 30 August 2009 18:39 Will the basic assault rifles for Nod and GDI soldiers do equal damage? I hope so...so it's equal and the player with better aim wins. Yes they are equal, and as you may have noticed the Nod soldier's head isn't big like in Renegade. You have considered that there is a reason for GDI doing more damage with soldiers? I think they do more damage with rifles for the simple reason that the GDI vehicles are way more expensive than the Nod vehicles. For example, a teched art vs a teched mrls = art wins an art vs MRLS = art wins most of the time an art vs Med = about equal chances overall, but the med is 350 credits more than the art. An teched art vs Med = med losses big time, while they are the same in price. An teched art vs 2 meds = art in trouble, but still has a small chance (800 vs 1600 creds!) Certainly at the start of a match where people fight for the harvester it is crucial that GDI is a little bit better, simply because they will probably need to save 2 harvesters while Nod only needs to save 1 harvester. For this reason GDI has more cheap fire power. I hope you've well tested this damage change, or adjusted pirces for vehicles as well...
I agree with EWD, many people say it's the same damage, but i always use a gdi auto rifle, and it seems to be more powerfull all the time
EWD is right. There's a reason why GDI's rifle does more damage. Also: did you "implement" point fix or did you recreate the corrupted point system standard Renegade has?
Spoony wrote on Tue, 01 September 2009 06:44 i hope i don't need to explain why gdi had better base infantry... anyone else here waiting with anticipation for a 500 line lecture from spoony? EDIT : also goztoe, the "point mod" still has rubbish points gain. all thats needed to change from standard ren points is the ramjet getting less points vs armour IMO, leave everything else
jimmyny wrote on Tue, 01 September 2009 14:24 EDIT : also goztoe, the "point mod" still has rubbish points gain. all thats needed to change from standard ren points is the ramjet getting less points vs armour IMO, leave everything else Your arguments are stunning.
Goztow wrote on Tue, 01 September 2009 07:32 jimmyny wrote on Tue, 01 September 2009 14:24 EDIT : also goztoe, the "point mod" still has rubbish points gain. all thats needed to change from standard ren points is the ramjet getting less points vs armour IMO, leave everything else Your arguments are stunning. ditto
I was thinking of writing down arguments once again but decided it's for the best of this topic not to do this.
EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Tue, 01 September 2009 07:07 [NE Fobby[GEN] wrote on Mon, 31 August 2009 00:43] pawkyfox wrote on Sun, 30 August 2009 18:39 Will the basic assault rifles for Nod and GDI soldiers do equal damage? I hope so...so it's equal and the player with better aim wins. Yes they are equal, and as you may have noticed the Nod soldier's head isn't big like in Renegade. You have considered that there is a reason for GDI doing more damage with soldiers? I think they do more damage with rifles for the simple reason that the GDI vehicles are way more expensive than the Nod vehicles. For example, a teched art vs a teched mrls = art wins an art vs MRLS = art wins most of the time an art vs Med = about equal chances overall, but the med is 350 credits more than the art. An teched art vs Med = med losses big time, while they are the same in price. An teched art vs 2 meds = art in trouble, but still has a small chance (800 vs 1600 creds!) Certainly at the start of a match where people fight for the harvester it is crucial that GDI is a little bit better, simply because they will probably need to save 2 harvesters while Nod only needs to save 1 harvester. For this reason GDI has more cheap fire power. I hope you've well tested this damage change, or adjusted pirces for vehicles as well... Makes sense.
pawkyfox wrote on Tue, 01 September 2009 16:05 EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Tue, 01 September 2009 07:07 [NE Fobby[GEN] wrote on Mon, 31 August 2009 00:43] pawkyfox wrote on Sun, 30 August 2009 18:39 Will the basic assault rifles for Nod and GDI soldiers do equal damage? I hope so...so it's equal and the player with better aim wins. Yes they are equal, and as you may have noticed the Nod soldier's head isn't big like in Renegade. You have considered that there is a reason for GDI doing more damage with soldiers? I think they do more damage with rifles for the simple reason that the GDI vehicles are way more expensive than the Nod vehicles. For example, a teched art vs a teched mrls = art wins an art vs MRLS = art wins most of the time an art vs Med = about equal chances overall, but the med is 350 credits more than the art. An teched art vs Med = med losses big time, while they are the same in price. An teched art vs 2 meds = art in trouble, but still has a small chance (800 vs 1600 creds!) Certainly at the start of a match where people fight for the harvester it is crucial that GDI is a little bit better, simply because they will probably need to save 2 harvesters while Nod only needs to save 1 harvester. For this reason GDI has more cheap fire power. I hope you've well tested this damage change, or adjusted pirces for vehicles as well... Makes sense. Kinda, anyway, it's because of these small little things that renegade plays this good, and I am kinda worried they'll get that wrong in RenX, possibly ruining the gameplay.
It would be a tragic shame if that happened. It looks so nice...
I understand your explanation, but I don't really see how a slightly stronger rifle magically balances with Nod's artillery advantage - especially since the damage difference between the rifles is so small, and the GDI soldier is something that is used very early on. Nod's advantage with the artillery sounds like something that needs to balanced between vehicles (like a better MRLS for example?), rather than nerfing the damage of basic infantry. Anyways we'll be sure to test it out before release. Thanks for voicing your concerns. And for the record, the main reason for open betas is to get little things like this right before an official release. With the difference in engine and physics, you're bound to run into at least a few differences; some of which could be fixed early on.
fobby is correct. just as you don't fix a headache by taking an antacid, you don't correct a vehicle imbalance problem by giving GDI basic inf a slightly better gun.
Ryan3k wrote on Tue, 01 September 2009 11:37 fobby is correct. just as you don't fix a headache by taking an antacid, you don't correct a vehicle imbalance problem by giving GDI basic inf a slightly better gun. lol wrong analogy...a better analogy will be that it is a small cancer that has the potential to spread and affect all over the body. Looking at EWD's post, this will affect who gets vehicles first and is related to pricing as well. But since this is open beta I am sure they can fix any imbalances they find and patch em up as they release the other parts.
I didn't realise that it wasn't going to be an exact translation from renegade. I assumed the warhead types, damage multipliers, damage values, credits gained, health, armor values and all that stuff was going to be a precise copy. So it could be that the end product looks like renegade, only much much better, has the CNC mode like renegade, but the balance could be quite different, meaning different strats and techniques must be employed?
reborn wrote on Tue, 01 September 2009 13:18 I didn't realise that it wasn't going to be an exact translation from renegade. I assumed the warhead types, damage multipliers, damage values, credits gained, health, armor values and all that stuff was going to be a precise copy. So it could be that the end product looks like renegade, only much much better, has the CNC mode like renegade, but the balance could be quite different, meaning different strats and techniques must be employed? This is actually the only damage value that is different right now. Like I said though, it will be tested prior to the beta release with Renegade's rifle damage.
Do seriously consider the alternative if you suddenly find that Nod has a 15-20 minute win, most of the time. (Balanced firepower leads to both teams getting vehicles, Nod wins field w/ teched arts then proceeds to win the game) A server I once played on tried this, it caused a few problems, but as we were a Marathon server, it didn't matter that Nod could (almost) always get the eraly field and seige, points were irrelevant. Not quite the same on AOW. Meh, we shall see. This can be discussed forever in theory, let's wait and see.
@EWD, art vs med = equal chance? is the med c4usmoke or something?
There is one new ability for vehiclular combat that might change the way the game plays in a slight portion. The MRLS turret does, in fact, rotate in Renegade X. That means you don't have to curve your shots to hit your targets. They did say that they are planning to make a button that locks the turret in a specific place, but I'm not sure if it will be in the build or not (I'm not a dev). However, even if damage points are the same, the rotating turret does give the MRLS a much better chance at survival when in one on one combat with an artillery.
How the hell does making GDI soldiers more powerful compensate for artilleries being better than MRLS's? Here's a better idea: Keep the changes made (Balancing Nod and GDI's rifles), then make the MRLS more capable.
The answer is quite simple: harvesters. IF you play original renegade without starting credits (= clanwars settings), then you'll know that the first minutes of the game are crucial to the rest of the game. With their rifles, GDI almost always have the upper hand on attacking the harvester, except of course on maps where the harv is behind the refinery. But then they still have the upperhand in tunnel fights most of the time. If GDI has a better chance of killing the enemy harvester and saving theirs, they'll compensate the art : med difference, won't they? Economy is very important in Renegade, but things like starting credits (to a lesser extend) and mostly the lack of pointfix (there we go again) already get in the way of this. Making Nod's and GDI's soldiers doing equal damage will have a much bigger impact on this, though. I'm not saying Westwood intended this or not, I'm not in their heads but by some small miracle Westwood managed to make this game about balanced. Every small "detail" counts in this. You didn't yet answer my question about pointfix being implemented or not. Could you look into it? Tbh you guys should check such things with Spoony or someone else from clanwars.cc. They're in a way better position than most people on this forum (including myself) to talk about balance issues. It kind of frightens me to see this hasn't happened.
If you honestly think that the Arty is better then the MRLS by a long shot then I just have to laugh at you. You clearly dont know how to use an MRLS. At close range where you can get behind the mrls I can understand, but honestly I've never managed to get an artillery get behind my MRLS. As per getting behind the MRLS, we have already taking care of that where the alt fire will allow you to unlock your turret, alt fire once (after you unlocked it) will lock in whatever position, and double tap alt fire will position it back to how it was in ren with the initial locked position. MRLS missiles are easier to lock on but still require a little bit of skill. All the damage values are still the same (Other then the Nod AR) so actually the MRLS and artillery balance out very nicely. So that leaves an imbalance in the soldier battles, which is easily fixed by making the damage the same. So your explanation on how the GDI soldier some how balances out the Arty no longer applies because the MRLS is already balanced out with the Arty. Now with that being said, I am well aware that GDI is more powerful but slow, and Nod is Faster but weaker, but when it comes to infintry, the only difference is that Gunner can deal more punch in a shorter amount of time, but Nod in return has the Laser ChainGunner which is far more superior to Patch. The whole thing with GDI being stronger and slower, and Nod being faster but weaker only really applies to the vehicles.
Oh, I don't think it's better than the MRLS by THAT much, but in ren, it is pretty inferior. While battle-wise, it's not that much worse, the fact that is costs more really comes into play. Glad to hear how the MRLS will work though, that gives it the versatility it needed. I hope to see in the future though, you guys introduce the other 2 Nod vehicles that were left out of Renegade, and have the SSM and MRLS compete- rather than Artillery and MRLS.
MRLS and Arty both cost 450. Never did one cost more then the other in ren. And its the same in RenX, they both cost 450.
Havoc 89 wrote on Wed, 02 September 2009 12:02 If you honestly think that the Arty is better then the MRLS by a long shot then I just have to laugh at you. You clearly dont know how to use an MRLS. At close range where you can get behind the mrls I can understand, but honestly I've never managed to get an artillery get behind my MRLS. As per getting behind the MRLS, we have already taking care of that where the alt fire will allow you to unlock your turret, alt fire once (after you unlocked it) will lock in whatever position, and double tap alt fire will position it back to how it was in ren with the initial locked position. MRLS missiles are easier to lock on but still require a little bit of skill. All the damage values are still the same (Other then the Nod AR) so actually the MRLS and artillery balance out very nicely. So that leaves an imbalance in the soldier battles, which is easily fixed by making the damage the same. So your explanation on how the GDI soldier some how balances out the Arty no longer applies because the MRLS is already balanced out with the Arty. In any proper vehicle fight (Proper, meaning with proper repairs, of course), the arty has a huge advantage because of the absurd splash radius which makes it that much more difficult for supporting hotwires to stay out of the crossfire and still be in the tank's cover and protection. By comparison, the MLRS's splash is really pathetic. The only vehicle weapon that comes close is the Mammoth Tank's Tusk Missiles. Of course, what self-respecting artillery driver would let a mammy get so close?
The MRLS having a rotating turret (that can still be locked in place) really does sound like a pretty big upgrade and hopefully, it'll mostly balance the things if you don't nerf the Nod AR back to Ren settings. Will be interesting to see how it goes. I do really hope that the points are fixed and not bugged like in vanilla Renegade, though. Keep up the good work!
[NE Fobby[GEN] wrote on Tue, 01 September 2009 18:27]I understand your explanation, but I don't really see how a slightly stronger rifle magically balances with Nod's artillery advantage - especially since the damage difference between the rifles is so small, and the GDI soldier is something that is used very early on. Nod's advantage with the artillery sounds like something that needs to balanced between vehicles (like a better MRLS for example?), rather than nerfing the damage of basic infantry. Anyways we'll be sure to test it out before release. Thanks for voicing your concerns. And for the record, the main reason for open betas is to get little things like this right before an official release. With the difference in engine and physics, you're bound to run into at least a few differences; some of which could be fixed early on. The Rifle grants GDI an (small) advantage right at the start, when everyone is going for the harvs. As said GDI needs meds to counter the arts. GDI needs 2 surviving harvs for this, with the better rifle they can protect thiers better and attack the Nod one better. For the art/med battle to be "fair" the harv score needs to be 2-1 for GDI (harvs that unloaded).
If you guys don't like how our game is balanced, you can always make a balance mod in the form of a mutator! Now, stop whining about all the little details and let us finish the fucking mod before getting all up in arms about such a SMALL FUCKING DETAIL.
JeepRubi wrote on Wed, 02 September 2009 19:58 If you guys don't like how our game is balanced, you can always make a balance mod in the form of a mutator! Now, stop whining about all the little details and let us finish the fucking mod before getting all up in arms about such a SMALL FUCKING DETAIL. You should leave the PR to fobby
LeeumDee wrote on Wed, 02 September 2009 18:07 JeepRubi wrote on Wed, 02 September 2009 19:58 If you guys don't like how our game is balanced, you can always make a balance mod in the form of a mutator! Now, stop whining about all the little details and let us finish the fucking mod before getting all up in arms about such a SMALL FUCKING DETAIL. You should leave the PR to fobby Nah, JeepRubi is doing some fine PR. Sometimes nerds need a firm talking to.
JeepRubi wrote on Wed, 02 September 2009 19:58 If you guys don't like how our game is balanced, you can always make a balance mod in the form of a mutator! Now, stop whining about all the little details and let us finish the fucking mod before getting all up in arms about such a SMALL FUCKING DETAIL. QFT
I don't think it's a complaint about balance in Renegade X, but rather a discussion as to why the damage differences existed in Renegade in the first place. Also, I want to go back to a post Goz made about referencing the damage differences to the early game harvester rushes. I have to disagree with that point. This isn't APB. If infantry are forced to rush the enemy harvesters, then they aren't going to use their autorifles to do so. C4 would be the weapon of choice. And even if they do decide to use their autorifles to gain some extra points before it dies, at the end of the day, the harvesters were still destroyed and/or heavily damaged due to the C4.
JeepRubi wrote on Wed, 02 September 2009 19:58 If you guys don't like how our game is balanced, you can always make a balance mod in the form of a mutator! Now, stop whining about all the little details and let us finish the fucking mod before getting all up in arms about such a SMALL FUCKING DETAIL. Like a boss. I agree with JeepRubi by far. No matter what some motherfuckers are going to be so picky about every little detail even if the overall result is absolutely amazing. Can't wait for this!
R315r4z0r wrote on Wed, 02 September 2009 21:37 Also, I want to go back to a post Goz made about referencing the damage differences to the early game harvester rushes. I have to disagree with that point. This isn't APB. If infantry are forced to rush the enemy harvesters, then they aren't going to use their autorifles to do so. C4 would be the weapon of choice. And even if they do decide to use their autorifles to gain some extra points before it dies, at the end of the day, the harvesters were still destroyed and/or heavily damaged due to the C4.[/color] Okay, you've definitely never played in a server with no starting credits. He does not mean GDI gains the advantage so they can destroy the harvester faster, he means that they gain the advantage in PREVENTING NOD from destroying their harvester and allowing them to destroy Nod's own. The GDI soldier has a more powerful rifle and the Nod soldier's head is bigger because it gives GDI an advantage in defending the harvester. I guess it's true: nobody on renforums plays renegade.
Really when it comes down to balancing the game, let's not follow renegade step by step as it's a different engine and may have different gameplay. As long as the guys at RenX balance it so nod and gdi have an equal chance at winning that's what matters. That's also why this is a BETA to see how these things turn out.
1)arty>MRLS every single time unless you're terrible 2)rotatable MRLS turret means another huge balance issue 3)im guessing renx is based off non-points fix points system?
infusi0n wrote on Thu, 03 September 2009 06:11 1)arty>MRLS every single time unless you're terrible 2)rotatable MRLS turret means another huge balance issue 3)im guessing renx is based off non-points fix points system? LOLOLOLL It would probably be harder to give RenX a non point fix way of distributing points than a normal pointfix way. With the pointfix you get points for the damage you do (like in most games) without it you get points because you shoot with a weapon that basically has the capability to do a lot of damage, but doesn't do that because it's bad against the armortype, but that does get the points as if it did the lot of damage. For ex: Without pointfix: The ramjet has a basic damage of 200. This means that whatever it hits, it gets 20 points (even if it does just 5 damage on a vehicle or so). Also it depends on whether the vehicle you hit has green or red/orange health. With pointfix: The ramjet applies 200*armourmultiplier. This means that it does say 5 damage. It then gets 0,5 points because it only did 5 damage.
EWD, I think they still haven't said anything about how the points will be done in RenX. But yeh, it's most likely the right way - aka pointsfix on.
1-2 buggyes still come and kill half/all of the soldiers
ErroR wrote on Thu, 03 September 2009 13:05 1-2 buggyes still come and kill half/all of the soldiers 2-3 rifles own a buggy in a few seconds... So there go your 300 credits...
yeah but it does make a difference, killing some engies or soldiers once it comes out and if it's not a 20v20 server it can pretty much whore the harv
can't wait for this, hopefully those that don't have ut3 will buy it. I bought on Steam for like 5$ just for this mod everyone should try their best to spread the word to their old renegade gaming buddies that may have moved on to other games. At least to give it a try so we can have a somewhat populated game. shoutout to my renegade demo buddies that remember me and St0rm servers
Goztow wrote on Thu, 03 September 2009 13:14 ErroR wrote on Thu, 03 September 2009 13:05 1-2 buggyes still come and kill half/all of the soldiers 2-3 rifles own a buggy in a few seconds... So there go your 300 credits... I often use a Buggy/Humvee at the start, and 3 rifles can't really kill me. The only way I often get killed is due GDI/NOD gaining the field, and having their entire team shooting me. A lot of (good) people can easily kill 2-3 soldiers in seconds with a Buggy/Humvee.
Ethenal wrote on Wed, 02 September 2009 22:57 R315r4z0r wrote on Wed, 02 September 2009 21:37 Also, I want to go back to a post Goz made about referencing the damage differences to the early game harvester rushes. I have to disagree with that point. This isn't APB. If infantry are forced to rush the enemy harvesters, then they aren't going to use their autorifles to do so. C4 would be the weapon of choice. And even if they do decide to use their autorifles to gain some extra points before it dies, at the end of the day, the harvesters were still destroyed and/or heavily damaged due to the C4.[/color] Okay, you've definitely never played in a server with no starting credits. He does not mean GDI gains the advantage so they can destroy the harvester faster, he means that they gain the advantage in PREVENTING NOD from destroying their harvester and allowing them to destroy Nod's own. The GDI soldier has a more powerful rifle and the Nod soldier's head is bigger because it gives GDI an advantage in defending the harvester. I guess it's true: nobody on renforums plays renegade. I've played on many of those servers, but I don't see the need to do that because of all my years of Renegade, I've learned to make my primary source of income the money I get from damage I do, rather than from the Harvester. But that's just me. Other people probably find value in defending their own harvester. But really, it depends on skill. You're perfectly capable of taking out a GDI soldier with a Nod autorifle. To be completely honest, I've never found it hard to kill a GDI soldier as a Nod soldier... however I have found it easier to kill a Nod soldier with a GDI soldier.. :V And yes, I do play Renegade at least once a week.
I know it works, and I know the current system is bugged according to code but either way has become THE official points system and people have 7+ of gameplay experience with it so
EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Wed, 02 September 2009 17:11 [NE Fobby[GEN] wrote on Tue, 01 September 2009 18:27]I understand your explanation, but I don't really see how a slightly stronger rifle magically balances with Nod's artillery advantage - especially since the damage difference between the rifles is so small, and the GDI soldier is something that is used very early on. Nod's advantage with the artillery sounds like something that needs to balanced between vehicles (like a better MRLS for example?), rather than nerfing the damage of basic infantry. Anyways we'll be sure to test it out before release. Thanks for voicing your concerns. And for the record, the main reason for open betas is to get little things like this right before an official release. With the difference in engine and physics, you're bound to run into at least a few differences; some of which could be fixed early on. The Rifle grants GDI an (small) advantage right at the start, when everyone is going for the harvs. As said GDI needs meds to counter the arts. GDI needs 2 surviving harvs for this, with the better rifle they can protect thiers better and attack the Nod one better. For the art/med battle to be "fair" the harv score needs to be 2-1 for GDI (harvs that unloaded). Oh yeah dude, I fully understand how it's balanced in Renegade, but instead of balancing the artillery with stronger GDI infantry for the reasons you've mentioned, it makes more sense to be balancing the MRLS directly with the Artillery as they are counterparts to each other. We believe we have done that. Someone mentioned earlier that Artillery has more splash damage, but a MRLS packs more overall damage, so with a rotatable turret, which many new Renegade maps have adopted, things should work out better in theory. Again, this IS a beta release and therefore an opportunity to put our theories to the ultimate test. This way we can eliminate imbalances and glitches very early on in development.
[NE Fobby[GEN] wrote on Fri, 04 September 2009 08:05] EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Wed, 02 September 2009 17:11 [NE Fobby[GEN] wrote on Tue, 01 September 2009 18:27]I understand your explanation, but I don't really see how a slightly stronger rifle magically balances with Nod's artillery advantage - especially since the damage difference between the rifles is so small, and the GDI soldier is something that is used very early on. Nod's advantage with the artillery sounds like something that needs to balanced between vehicles (like a better MRLS for example?), rather than nerfing the damage of basic infantry. Anyways we'll be sure to test it out before release. Thanks for voicing your concerns. And for the record, the main reason for open betas is to get little things like this right before an official release. With the difference in engine and physics, you're bound to run into at least a few differences; some of which could be fixed early on. The Rifle grants GDI an (small) advantage right at the start, when everyone is going for the harvs. As said GDI needs meds to counter the arts. GDI needs 2 surviving harvs for this, with the better rifle they can protect thiers better and attack the Nod one better. For the art/med battle to be "fair" the harv score needs to be 2-1 for GDI (harvs that unloaded). Oh yeah dude, I fully understand how it's balanced in Renegade, but instead of balancing the artillery with stronger GDI infantry for the reasons you've mentioned, it makes more sense to be balancing the MRLS directly with the Artillery as they are counterparts to each other. We believe we have done that. Someone mentioned earlier that Artillery has more splash damage, but a MRLS packs more overall damage, so with a rotatable turret, which many new Renegade maps have adopted, things should work out better in theory. Again, this IS a beta release and therefore an opportunity to put our theories to the ultimate test. This way we can eliminate imbalances and glitches very early on in development. I'm curious, as I always found it a delight that WW didn't balance out all units directly against it counterparts. I hope this will work out, let that be clear Just trying to make sure that the balance is brilliant again, just as in Renegade
[NE Fobby[GEN] wrote on Fri, 04 September 2009 03:05]it makes more sense to be balancing the MRLS directly with the Artillery as they are counterparts to each other. In that same way that giving Havoc and Sakura the exact same weapon was balanced... yeah. If you get into that line of thinking however you'll just any sort of uniqueness away. I don't know about you but I prefer part of the challenge in any game to be knowing what weapon or piece of equipment to bring to the fight. Instead of "oh i'll just use what they're using."
SilverDwn wrote on Sat, 05 September 2009 13:02 this looks amazing! Just wondered if my current computer can support it? I have a Pentium 4 3.4Ghz HT and 1500MB RAM runnin at 133mhz and a 8x Graphics card with 512 onboard mem. In one of our next updates we will be posting the specs of some of our beta testers and the FPS that they're getting ingame with those computers.
Renx wrote on Sat, 05 September 2009 12:28 [NE Fobby[GEN] wrote on Fri, 04 September 2009 03:05]it makes more sense to be balancing the MRLS directly with the Artillery as they are counterparts to each other. In that same way that giving Havoc and Sakura the exact same weapon was balanced... yeah. If you get into that line of thinking however you'll just any sort of uniqueness away. I don't know about you but I prefer part of the challenge in any game to be knowing what weapon or piece of equipment to bring to the fight. Instead of "oh i'll just use what they're using." It's a game based around an RTS. That's how it's SUPPOSED to be.
EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Fri, 04 September 2009 06:59 I'm curious, as I always found it a delight that WW didn't balance out all units directly against it counterparts. I hope this will work out, let that be clear Just trying to make sure that the balance is brilliant again, just as in Renegade There is no possible way that you could have found enjoyment out of the specific idea that the balance wasn't toe-to-toe because it is almost impossible to even pick up on the differences if you had no involvement in modding or level editor. If Level editor was never released for the public to use, then no one would have ever noticed the GDI rifle doing more damage than the Nod rifle. It's just that minuscule of a difference. Figuring out that there is a difference is like taking two large handfuls of small pebbles, walking up to someone, and asking them to point to the hand with less without counting. If you balance the MRLS to be EXACTLY as effective as the Artillery, people still wont notice how well they are balanced because they are two entirely different types of vehicles. Regardless of how well they play against each other, one vehicle fires 6 rockets from a mobile platform while the other fires a powerful long-ranged shell. They look different and perform different, that's enough to give off the impression that they are different.. even though, balance wise, they are exactly the same. Renegade's asymetrical balance is nothing more than an illusion.
Ethenal wrote on Sat, 05 September 2009 15:21 Renx wrote on Sat, 05 September 2009 12:28 [NE Fobby[GEN] wrote on Fri, 04 September 2009 03:05]it makes more sense to be balancing the MRLS directly with the Artillery as they are counterparts to each other. In that same way that giving Havoc and Sakura the exact same weapon was balanced... yeah. If you get into that line of thinking however you'll just any sort of uniqueness away. I don't know about you but I prefer part of the challenge in any game to be knowing what weapon or piece of equipment to bring to the fight. Instead of "oh i'll just use what they're using." It's a game based around an RTS. That's how it's SUPPOSED to be. uuh.. C&C was made 15 years ago, have you played any others since then? That's definitely not the defining point of all RTS games. Even if it was, you're willing to throw all elements that build on strategy, tactics, and teamwork because of it? It's because of people that think like that which makes 99% of games these days have that "been there, done that" feeling.
Renx wrote on Sat, 05 September 2009 13:32 Ethenal wrote on Sat, 05 September 2009 15:21 Renx wrote on Sat, 05 September 2009 12:28 [NE Fobby[GEN] wrote on Fri, 04 September 2009 03:05]it makes more sense to be balancing the MRLS directly with the Artillery as they are counterparts to each other. In that same way that giving Havoc and Sakura the exact same weapon was balanced... yeah. If you get into that line of thinking however you'll just any sort of uniqueness away. I don't know about you but I prefer part of the challenge in any game to be knowing what weapon or piece of equipment to bring to the fight. Instead of "oh i'll just use what they're using." It's a game based around an RTS. That's how it's SUPPOSED to be. uuh.. C&C was made 15 years ago, have you played any others since then? That's definitely not the defining point of all RTS games. Even if it was, you're willing to throw all elements that build on strategy, tactics, and teamwork because of it? It's because of people that think like that which makes 99% of games these days have that "been there, done that" feeling. Yes, it's a game based around an RTS that was made 15 years ago. It's also around 7 years old itself. This is a mod made to bring the game to a new engine. Why would it change?
R315r4z0r wrote on Sat, 05 September 2009 14:27 EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Fri, 04 September 2009 06:59 I'm curious, as I always found it a delight that WW didn't balance out all units directly against it counterparts. I hope this will work out, let that be clear Just trying to make sure that the balance is brilliant again, just as in Renegade There is no possible way that you could have found enjoyment out of the specific idea that the balance wasn't toe-to-toe because it is almost impossible to even pick up on the differences if you had no involvement in modding or level editor. If Level editor was never released for the public to use, then no one would have ever noticed the GDI rifle doing more damage than the Nod rifle. It's just that minuscule of a difference. Figuring out that there is a difference is like taking two large handfuls of small pebbles, walking up to someone, and asking them to point to the hand with less without counting. If you balance the MRLS to be EXACTLY as effective as the Artillery, people still wont notice how well they are balanced because they are two entirely different types of vehicles. Regardless of how well they play against each other, one vehicle fires 6 rockets from a mobile platform while the other fires a powerful long-ranged shell. They look different and perform different, that's enough to give off the impression that they are different.. even though, balance wise, they are exactly the same. Renegade's asymetrical balance is nothing more than an illusion. Right out of my mouth, I fully agree with this. And balancing the MRLS properly with the Artillery is not making them exactly the same. The way the vehicles are used and their purposes are still very different.
[NE Fobby[GEN] wrote on Sat, 05 September 2009 21:53] R315r4z0r wrote on Sat, 05 September 2009 14:27 EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Fri, 04 September 2009 06:59 I'm curious, as I always found it a delight that WW didn't balance out all units directly against it counterparts. I hope this will work out, let that be clear Just trying to make sure that the balance is brilliant again, just as in Renegade There is no possible way that you could have found enjoyment out of the specific idea that the balance wasn't toe-to-toe because it is almost impossible to even pick up on the differences if you had no involvement in modding or level editor. If Level editor was never released for the public to use, then no one would have ever noticed the GDI rifle doing more damage than the Nod rifle. It's just that minuscule of a difference. Figuring out that there is a difference is like taking two large handfuls of small pebbles, walking up to someone, and asking them to point to the hand with less without counting. If you balance the MRLS to be EXACTLY as effective as the Artillery, people still wont notice how well they are balanced because they are two entirely different types of vehicles. Regardless of how well they play against each other, one vehicle fires 6 rockets from a mobile platform while the other fires a powerful long-ranged shell. They look different and perform different, that's enough to give off the impression that they are different.. even though, balance wise, they are exactly the same. Renegade's asymetrical balance is nothing more than an illusion. Right out of my mouth, I fully agree with this. And balancing the MRLS properly with the Artillery is not making them exactly the same. The way the vehicles are used and their purposes are still very different. There's no way people would not have found out about the rifle difference. It's a freaking 40 % difference! You really underestimate competitive players in Renegade, IMO.
The difference between the Nod and GDI rifle is humongous TBH. GDI rifle does 40% more damage. That's something that is VERY easy to find out without a level editor. You'd get suspicious when you'd win 90% of 1v1 rifle fights as GDI and only 10% as Nod (against a decent player)...or I don't know about you, but I certainly would. edit: eh, gozy posted while I was writing...
40%? Wow I had no idea it was that much. But then again, I've never fiddled around with the LE, which kind of supports the theory that you wouldn't know without meticulously going over the game with a fine-tooth comb.
Renegade matches are too long for someone to draw the conclusion that one rifle is better than the other. Especially for a weapon that is only widely used at the beginning of a game. I doubt that if you kill a Nod soldier with the GDI rifle, that you would remember how much ammo it took, the distance the soldier was at compared to you, where each shot hit, and how long (in seconds) it took you to take him down, by the next time you use a Nod rifle against a GDI soldier to compare. Renegade's health system only gives you number counts for the damage you take on. There is no possible way to know how much damage, in points, you are doing to enemy infantry, without assistance from an outside reference. Bottom line: Is it impossible to discover the differences without level editor? No it isn't, however it would be highly unlikely and unpractical for the knowledge to firstly be discovered and then to be widespread. Edit: Yes, 40% might look like a big percentage, but you have to look at the big picture. 40% more of something small is still something small. It's like picking up on a 40% increase in size of a grain of salt.
R315r4z0r wrote on Sat, 05 September 2009 19:41 Renegade matches are too long for someone to draw the conclusion that one rifle is better than the other. Especially for a weapon that is only widely used at the beginning of a game. I doubt that if you kill a Nod soldier with the GDI rifle, that you would remember how much ammo it took, the distance the soldier was at compared to you, where each shot hit, and how long (in seconds) it took you to take him down, by the next time you use a Nod rifle against a GDI soldier to compare. Renegade's health system only gives you number counts for the damage you take on. There is no possible way to know how much damage, in points, you are doing to enemy infantry, without assistance from an outside reference. Bottom line: Is it impossible to discover the differences without level editor? No it isn't, however it would be highly unlikely and unpractical for the knowledge to firstly be discovered and then to be widespread. Edit: Yes, 40% might look like a big percentage, but you have to look at the big picture. 40% more of something small is still something small. It's like picking up on a 40% increase in size of a grain of salt. Really? Back when we played clanwars 7 years ago we all knew this. It's pretty obvious how much GDI soldiers dominate Nod ones.
You knew it because it's common knowledge. And no, GDI soldiers do not dominate Nod soldiers. It's just as easy to kill a GDI soldier with a Nod rifle as it is to kill a Nod soldier with a GDI rifle. Out of my own personal experience, I only learned of the damage differences late in my Renegade career. And that's only because someone else brought it to my attention.
And if you're a GDI soldier fighting a Nod soldier, then you're going to utterly destroy the Nod soldier if you can kill a GDI soldier as a Nod soldier. That is what unbalance is.
Goztow wrote on Sat, 05 September 2009 16:35 There's no way people would not have found out about the rifle difference. It's a freaking 40 % difference! You really underestimate competitive players in Renegade, IMO. Yes, though the damage difference is just two points, right? Yes it makes a difference in the game, but as you know, infantry battles in Renegade was largely based on aim rather than the damage of a weapon. Heck, if you're good enough, you could kill just about any character with less than a clip of the pistol. If this was done purposely in order to balance Nod use of the Artillery, then would you agree that this isn't the only thing that can be done to balance the teams? Why is it that balancing the MRLS with the Artillery properly does not satisfy? After all, they are counterparts to each other as long-ranged vehicles and cost the same amount, so with a rotatable MRLS turret (which many maps have already done) in theory any balance problems would be at least mostly solved. It's not like giving the Nod soldier a bigger head or adding 2 damage points to a GDI rifle is the absolute only thing that can be done; it looks more like a last minute fix done when Westwood was balancing the game when testing multiplayer. So since we actually have as much time as we need to get things right with Renegade X, we'd rather resort to a balance solution that does not create this "quick-fix" type imbalance between GDI and Nod soldiers. As I've said a few times before, one of the many reasons why we're even doing a beta is to solve problems early on and put these theories to the test.
R315r4z0r wrote on Sat, 05 September 2009 20:02 It's just as easy to kill a GDI soldier with a Nod rifle as it is to kill a Nod soldier with a GDI rifle. How do you think that? There are only two objective differences: GDI auto rifle does more base damage (7 compared to 5), and GDI soldier has a smaller head.
R315r4z0r wrote on Sat, 05 September 2009 21:02 You knew it because it's common knowledge. And no, GDI soldiers do not dominate Nod soldiers. It's just as easy to kill a GDI soldier with a Nod rifle as it is to kill a Nod soldier with a GDI rifle. Out of my own personal experience, I only learned of the damage differences late in my Renegade career. And that's only because someone else brought it to my attention. Oh it's good to know you know how I knew things. Actually we used to test this stuff out way back when. Gdi soldier has a smaller head and their weapon does more damage. They are far superior, I don't even use nod soldiers, just grab an engineer as I an do more damage with a pistol and take less damage.
R315r4z0r wrote on Sun, 06 September 2009 01:41 [color=royalblue]blue text In organized games, we notice the contrary each and every time.
Doesn't Renegade do projectile collision with hitboxes and not the actual mesh? (I don't know, that's why I'm asking.) If that's true then unless the Nod Soldier's headbox is also larger then it's a moot point whether the mesh is larger or not.
Spoony wrote on Sun, 06 September 2009 01:06 R315r4z0r wrote on Sat, 05 September 2009 20:02 It's just as easy to kill a GDI soldier with a Nod rifle as it is to kill a Nod soldier with a GDI rifle. How do you think that? There are only two objective differences: GDI auto rifle does more base damage (7 compared to 5), and GDI soldier has a smaller head. Because statistics and number values take a second seat when human intervention comes into play. It's someone's drive to kill the GDI soldier as a Nod soldier that makes it possible. Even if the GDI soldier did 20 damage per shot, it would still be possible to kill him if your aim is right and your mind is in the right place.
you're assuming the two people's skill levels are unequal...
Ethenal wrote on Sat, 05 September 2009 16:19 Why would it change? Because it can! And it should! Don't get me wrong, playing a game I used to love the way it was on release with new graphics would be awesome... for a little while. But eventually you have to fill the roll of the devs and build on it, make it better than what it was. This encompasses MUCH more than just new maps and textures. If the base elements that make up the gameplay can be changed for the better, then they should be, regardless of what the game was based on. And if you're going to argue against "funner is better" then I don't know what to think.\ Besides, this isn't SOE, changes will likely be tested and then approved/denied by the community before they go in.
i got an awesome idea. Instead of assuming the worse lets go play the mod first then talk about it.
R315r4z0r wrote on Sun, 06 September 2009 09:15 Spoony wrote on Sun, 06 September 2009 01:06 R315r4z0r wrote on Sat, 05 September 2009 20:02 It's just as easy to kill a GDI soldier with a Nod rifle as it is to kill a Nod soldier with a GDI rifle. How do you think that? There are only two objective differences: GDI auto rifle does more base damage (7 compared to 5), and GDI soldier has a smaller head. Because statistics and number values take a second seat when human intervention comes into play. It's someone's drive to kill the GDI soldier as a Nod soldier that makes it possible. Even if the GDI soldier did 20 damage per shot, it would still be possible to kill him if your aim is right and your mind is in the right place. Yes, and no one is saying it's impossible to kill the GDI soldier. As far as I know, everyone is simply saying why make a gap between two troops that are supposed to be entirely equal, save for their appearance? And, here's the thing that happens: Skilled GDI soldier vs not as skilled Nod soldier: GDI soldier wins almost all the time. Equally skilled GDI soldier vs equally skilled Nod soldier: GDI soldier will win most of the time Skilled Nod soldier vs not as skilled GDI soldier: Nod soldier has a better chance to win. See the problem here? It's called unbalance. No, it does not compensate for artillery. As far as I'm concerned, it's just as much of a bug as the points bug.
"CarrierII wrote some time ago in this thread, and promptly got ignored" This can be discussed forever in theory. Let's see how it turns out in practice. If this discussion doesn't stop (or move to another thread), I will split it, and get annoyed. OK?
R315r4z0r wrote on Sat, 05 September 2009 20:27 EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Fri, 04 September 2009 06:59 I'm curious, as I always found it a delight that WW didn't balance out all units directly against it counterparts. I hope this will work out, let that be clear Just trying to make sure that the balance is brilliant again, just as in Renegade There is no possible way that you could have found enjoyment out of the specific idea that the balance wasn't toe-to-toe because it is almost impossible to even pick up on the differences if you had no involvement in modding or level editor. If Level editor was never released for the public to use, then no one would have ever noticed the GDI rifle doing more damage than the Nod rifle. It's just that minuscule of a difference. Figuring out that there is a difference is like taking two large handfuls of small pebbles, walking up to someone, and asking them to point to the hand with less without counting. If you balance the MRLS to be EXACTLY as effective as the Artillery, people still wont notice how well they are balanced because they are two entirely different types of vehicles. Regardless of how well they play against each other, one vehicle fires 6 rockets from a mobile platform while the other fires a powerful long-ranged shell. They look different and perform different, that's enough to give off the impression that they are different.. even though, balance wise, they are exactly the same. Renegade's asymetrical balance is nothing more than an illusion. Yeah right, and because of that I also did not notice the weird point behaviour of the pointbug... I did figure out that the pointbug only works on vehicles as long as they have armour, if that's gone you will get the correct amount of points, even on a non pointfixed server. Oh and coincidentely, I also wouldn't notice according to you how BIATCH should work. While coincedentely, I did though out how it should work. Yes, StealthEye did it codewise, but i though up the general idea. Same goes for the pointfix. I noticed it, StealthEye dug around a bit, found out it was obviously a bug (first multiplying with say x and then derive x again). So ye you absolutely don't notice these things, IF YOU DON'T FUCKING KNOW HOW TO PLAY OR ARE BUSY WANKING AT THE SAME TIME.
It seems I've been added to everyone's ignore lists. EWD - that last comment was inappropiate ad-hominem. Please don't. Time to split the thread. I'm not amused, so behave in the split one, please.
R315r4z0r wrote on Sun, 06 September 2009 09:15 Spoony wrote on Sun, 06 September 2009 01:06 R315r4z0r wrote on Sat, 05 September 2009 20:02 It's just as easy to kill a GDI soldier with a Nod rifle as it is to kill a Nod soldier with a GDI rifle. How do you think that? There are only two objective differences: GDI auto rifle does more base damage (7 compared to 5), and GDI soldier has a smaller head. Because statistics and number values take a second seat when human intervention comes into play. It's someone's drive to kill the GDI soldier as a Nod soldier that makes it possible. Even if the GDI soldier did 20 damage per shot, it would still be possible to kill him if your aim is right and your mind is in the right place. by this 'logic' you could say "mobius" instead of "gdi soldier".
Re: RenegadeX-Pre-release --> "Is the GDI/Nod autorifle thing balanced?" debate
How about we just see how exchanging Renegade's flickerlagfest with fluid UT3 character movement and physics changes the overall effectiveness of every weapon/vehicle/unit before debating specifics of a game most of us haven't yet played..
JohnDoe wrote on Sun, 06 September 2009 17:08 How about we just see how exchanging Renegade's flickerlagfest with fluid UT3 character movement and physics changes the overall effectiveness of every weapon/vehicle/unit before debating specifics of a game most of us haven't yet played.. Pretty much everything that needs to be said, right here.
In my opinion, I have been playing ren for about 4-5 years and I have never noticed it so big whoop.
Spoony wrote on Sun, 06 September 2009 17:53 R315r4z0r wrote on Sun, 06 September 2009 09:15 Spoony wrote on Sun, 06 September 2009 01:06 R315r4z0r wrote on Sat, 05 September 2009 20:02 It's just as easy to kill a GDI soldier with a Nod rifle as it is to kill a Nod soldier with a GDI rifle. How do you think that? There are only two objective differences: GDI auto rifle does more base damage (7 compared to 5), and GDI soldier has a smaller head. Because statistics and number values take a second seat when human intervention comes into play. It's someone's drive to kill the GDI soldier as a Nod soldier that makes it possible. Even if the GDI soldier did 20 damage per shot, it would still be possible to kill him if your aim is right and your mind is in the right place. by this 'logic' you could say "mobius" instead of "gdi soldier". And? Would it be wrong to say that? Is it not possible to kill a Mobius with a Nod Autorifle? (Despite the obvious armor differences) GEORGE ZIMMER wrote on Sun, 06 September 2009 13:52 Yes, and no one is saying it's impossible to kill the GDI soldier. As far as I know, everyone is simply saying why make a gap between two troops that are supposed to be entirely equal, save for their appearance? And, here's the thing that happens: Skilled GDI soldier vs not as skilled Nod soldier: GDI soldier wins almost all the time. Equally skilled GDI soldier vs equally skilled Nod soldier: GDI soldier will win most of the time Skilled Nod soldier vs not as skilled GDI soldier: Nod soldier has a better chance to win. See the problem here? It's called unbalance. No, it does not compensate for artillery. As far as I'm concerned, it's just as much of a bug as the points bug. Your post is confusing. I can't tell if you're in agreement with me or not (or if you are unaware that you are in agreement with me.) You've stated that you're in disagreement, but your points and backup information state otherwise. FYI, I'm FOR making the damage done by each rifle the SAME. GDI's shouldn't do more damage than Nod's. EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Sun, 06 September 2009 14:26 Yeah right, and because of that I also did not notice the weird point behaviour of the pointbug... I did figure out that the pointbug only works on vehicles as long as they have armour, if that's gone you will get the correct amount of points, even on a non pointfixed server. Oh and coincidentely, I also wouldn't notice according to you how BIATCH should work. While coincedentely, I did though out how it should work. Yes, StealthEye did it codewise, but i though up the general idea. Same goes for the pointfix. I noticed it, StealthEye dug around a bit, found out it was obviously a bug (first multiplying with say x and then derive x again). So ye you absolutely don't notice these things, IF YOU DON'T FUCKING KNOW HOW TO PLAY OR ARE BUSY WANKING AT THE SAME TIME. You're contradicting what I said. Level editor is just one example of a program. BIATCH, Stealtheye, Level Editor, whatever. They are all the same. They give you knowledge of the game's makeup via an outside/behind the scenes source. And also, points are a visible means of comparison in the game while it's in play. I'd expect you to pick up on the points bug. I don't get why you're relating it to the damage differences. Unlike points, which you can visibly see and reference too, health and damage isn't readily available for you to see and check. If you attack someone, you wont know how much damage you did unless you sat down in a private match, fired one shot, then asked them how much damage they took. With points, all you have to do is shoot something and check the scoreboard.
R315r4z0r wrote on Sun, 06 September 2009 21:18 And? Would it be wrong to say that? Is it not possible to kill a Mobius with a Nod Autorifle? (Despite the obvious armor differences) Quote: It's just as easy to kill a GDI soldier with a Nod rifle as it is to kill a Nod soldier with a GDI rifle. you can, surely, see the difference between these two statements.
R315r4z0r wrote on Sat, 05 September 2009 20:02 It's just as easy to kill a GDI soldier with a Nod rifle as it is to kill a Nod soldier with a GDI rifle.
GDI sold >>> Nod sold This is the case every single time, as long as the two players are roughly in the same skill level. Tbh, if ur Nod, there is really no point in ever getting a sold, best to go with an engi.
R315r4z0r wrote on Sun, 06 September 2009 21:18 EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Sun, 06 September 2009 14:26 Yeah right, and because of that I also did not notice the weird point behaviour of the pointbug... I did figure out that the pointbug only works on vehicles as long as they have armour, if that's gone you will get the correct amount of points, even on a non pointfixed server. Oh and coincidentely, I also wouldn't notice according to you how BIATCH should work. While coincedentely, I did though out how it should work. Yes, StealthEye did it codewise, but i though up the general idea. Same goes for the pointfix. I noticed it, StealthEye dug around a bit, found out it was obviously a bug (first multiplying with say x and then derive x again). So ye you absolutely don't notice these things, IF YOU DON'T FUCKING KNOW HOW TO PLAY OR ARE BUSY WANKING AT THE SAME TIME. You're contradicting what I said. Level editor is just one example of a program. BIATCH, Stealtheye, Level Editor, whatever. They are all the same. They give you knowledge of the game's makeup via an outside/behind the scenes source. And also, points are a visible means of comparison in the game while it's in play. I'd expect you to pick up on the points bug. I don't get why you're relating it to the damage differences. StealhEye is a person, a BlackIntel admin....... Who coincidentally coded BIATCH. If you read what EWD said he helped in the production of BIATCH.
Well whatever, I don't follow the anti-cheating stuff on this game anymore. But that still doesn't change what I said. You can notice numerical point differences for your player while the game is in play, client side. If you want to find out how much damage your weapon is doing, you need the utmost cooperation of someone on the other team. One should be easily noticeable, the other requires some effort. Spoony wrote on Sun, 06 September 2009 23:38 R315r4z0r wrote on Sun, 06 September 2009 21:18 And? Would it be wrong to say that? Is it not possible to kill a Mobius with a Nod Autorifle? (Despite the obvious armor differences) Quote: It's just as easy to kill a GDI soldier with a Nod rifle as it is to kill a Nod soldier with a GDI rifle. you can, surely, see the difference between these two statements. No, not really. Unless you're talking about the obvious, then the difference would be the character mentioned. But I really don't see your point. Have you never killed a Mobius with an Autorifle before?
R315r4z0r wrote on Mon, 07 September 2009 09:01 If you want to find out how much damage your weapon is doing, you need the utmost cooperation of someone on the other team. One should be easily noticeable, the other requires some effort. you don't need to go through a level editor to notice that gdi soldiers rape the shit out of nod soldiers (unless you're that dense and unobservant) in which case i apologize seeing as how you appear to be both
Human skill is not consistent. What you do at one point in time doesn't mean it will be done exactly the same way the next time you do it. If you "own" one soldier in Renegade once, that doesn't mean you will "own" him just as badly if you encountered him again. Regardless of the weapon used. You can "own" a Nod soldier with a GDI rifle, but you can also do the same the other way around. But because of the inconsistency I mentioned above, it wouldn't be an observation based on statistics or damage done in the game, it would be an observation of yourself and how you play the game at different times.
Why are you guys arguing about weather or not the AR damage difference is noticable or not. It is to those who notice it, and it isn't to those have havnt. Not everyone is the same, everyone is different for when it comes to noticing things. To those whom state that the different damage AR balances out the artillery. Quite honestly you make it sound as if artilleries can be countered by the gdi soldier. Yeah, good luck with that. Oh yeah it makes complete sence to not balance out the counter parts but rather make something completely different that is only used for like the first 2 minutes deal 2 more damage and say that it some how magically works out. That is not balanced gameplay, that is clearly imbalanced gameplay in both the short and long term.
You didn't read: it's about the harvester!
We've already voiced our position: we believe the MRLS has been adjusted to properly balance with the Nod Artillery, which therefore makes the obvious imbalance between GDI and Nod soldiers obsolete and unnecessary. All in all, this is a beta, and therefore it will be tested as that's the whole point of the beta release. If you think balancing a vehicle with its counterpart will somehow flip the game on its backside, freeze over hell, and change the axis of the earth, then please either voice your concerns after you have tested the mod properly, or simply stick with W3D Renegade, as that will not change. This should probably be locked because we've said everything that needs to be said on our part, and we've heard the arguments for having unbalanced soldiers, which we believe are obsolete.
Thinking back, I don't think it's for balance reasons that the two autorifles do different damages. I think it's supposed to play a part in how each team should perform.
[NE Fobby[GEN] wrote on Mon, 07 September 2009 13:57]We've already voiced our position: we believe the MRLS has been adjusted to properly balance with the Nod Artillery, which therefore makes the obvious imbalance between GDI and Nod soldiers obsolete and unnecessary. All in all, this is a beta, and therefore it will be tested as that's the whole point of the beta release. If you think balancing a vehicle with its counterpart will somehow flip the game on its backside, freeze over hell, and change the axis of the earth, then please either voice your concerns after you have tested the mod properly, or simply stick with W3D Renegade, as that will not change. This should probably be locked because we've said everything that needs to be said on our part, and we've heard the arguments for having unbalanced soldiers, which we believe are obsolete. 100% agreed, BUT you have to change the point system ASAP if you want truely balanced gameplay. The Ramjet shouldn't be the most effective weapon in the game!
JohnDoe wrote on Mon, 07 September 2009 15:43 [NE Fobby[GEN] wrote on Mon, 07 September 2009 13:57]We've already voiced our position: we believe the MRLS has been adjusted to properly balance with the Nod Artillery, which therefore makes the obvious imbalance between GDI and Nod soldiers obsolete and unnecessary. All in all, this is a beta, and therefore it will be tested as that's the whole point of the beta release. If you think balancing a vehicle with its counterpart will somehow flip the game on its backside, freeze over hell, and change the axis of the earth, then please either voice your concerns after you have tested the mod properly, or simply stick with W3D Renegade, as that will not change. This should probably be locked because we've said everything that needs to be said on our part, and we've heard the arguments for having unbalanced soldiers, which we believe are obsolete. 100% agreed, BUT you have to change the point system ASAP if you want truely balanced gameplay. The Ramjet shouldn't be the most effective weapon in the game! Are you talking about the Ramjet's damage or the points? We've already expressed that certain things will be fixed/changed with the points system, which include Ramjets - they won't be getting many points for shooting at a Mammy, for example.
Goztow wrote on Mon, 07 September 2009 14:35 You didn't read: it's about the harvester! Oh believe me, I read it and its the lamest excuse for trying to justifying the AR and Arty.