Command and Conquer: Renegade Official Forums - RDF feed
C&C: Renegade --> Dying since 2003™, resurrected in 2024!
Quote: If Christians believe Jesus died for our "sins" then they should logically believe no one is going to "Hell." If the incredible story must be believed in order to have the necessary effect, then the story thus becomes nothing more than a subtle psychological ploy instead of a debt actually paid. Jesus either died for us or he didn't. The debt was either paid or it wasn't. The rest is nonsense. So... answer the question, if Jesus died for our sins, why must we believe that he did for our debt to be paid? If someone paid my debt off, I wouldn't HAVE to acknowledge that the debt was paid for that to be true, right? I mean, this especially being so if I don't even know I HAD a debt to begin with.
I'm getting sick of all these "questions for Christians"
Altzan wrote on Sun, 10 May 2009 22:04 You've got me there, "it's just faith".
I agree with every single comment so far
cnc95fan wrote on Sun, 10 May 2009 16:54 I'm getting sick of all these "questions for Christians" Why? They're legitimate topics, and nobody's pigeon-holding any questions for us deists and atheists. I'll even play the devil's advocate for my own question, too... Nobody said that debts pay-offs can't have conditions to them, though. In order to reap the benefits of Jesus' death paying off my debt, I have to recognize that he paid off my debt. It's a simple requirement for such a huge debt to be paid. HOWEVER, it's not "if you accept my payment for your debt, your debt will be paid." There's no condition spoken of in the Bible (that I'm aware of). It's just that the debt is paid. I wasn't given any chance to reject the debt pay-off. I can only reject that my debt was paid, but rejecting my debt being paid doesn't change that the debt is paid. Also, again, if I don't even recognize that I HAVE (or had) a debt, HOW can I recognize and accept that a debt was paid? You can't have the latter without the former.
DAUGHTER DIVER wrote on Sun, 10 May 2009 17:33 jesus is fiction right? Jesus was an actual person, but he was either a liar or a lunatic.
cheesesoda wrote on Sun, 10 May 2009 22:35 DAUGHTER DIVER wrote on Sun, 10 May 2009 17:33 jesus is fiction right? Jesus was an actual person, but he was either a liar or a lunatic. Who's is more insane though? The man who is being insane or the people that are actually following him?
insert_name_here wrote on Sun, 10 May 2009 18:04 cheesesoda wrote on Sun, 10 May 2009 22:35 DAUGHTER DIVER wrote on Sun, 10 May 2009 17:33 jesus is fiction right? Jesus was an actual person, but he was either a liar or a lunatic. Who's is more insane though? The man who is being insane or the people that are actually following him? I think it depends on how far someone takes their discipleship. On one hand, simply believing what someone tells you isn't insanity. I think it's just being gullible until it gets to a certain point. It only becomes insanity when you believe without question and especially when you take it too far into something being cultish. For instance, choosing to cure cancer with vitamins and minerals that leaves you with a 5% chance of survival over chemotherapy that gives you a 95% survival chance all because of your "beliefs". At that point, I think it clearly tips the scale in favor of the follower.
You can lie for a good cause. That may have been his reasoning. As for the topic, I can't understand what you are trying to say.. (or I am, but it just doesn't hold any real 'discussion value') Are you trying to say simply 'why can't you just say he died because he died and not for the sake of anyone else?' Because if you are then the answer is yes.. obviously. But what exactly are you trying to get at with that? So you deny that he died for your sins.. what's your point?
You are WAY off. The question is why must we believe in Christ dying for our sins in order to get into Heaven? Jesus' dying (apparently) paid off the debt of our sins, right? The fact that we believe it or not would not change the fact that our debt has been paid. BUT if we MUST believe that our sins have been paid, then Christ could NOT have died for our sins. It would be the BELIEF that he died for our sins (though, he couldn't possibly have in this scenario) for us to get into Heaven.
Edit: OHH I get what you are trying to say. But I think you're stopping your reasoning a bit short. It's not simply that we are forgiven because he died for our sins. We are only forgiven if we believe he did. Think of it sort of like a two part objective for each individual person's debt to be payed off. Him dying would meet the first objective, us believing would be the second objective. It's not a question of whether or not it is reasonable or not, it's simply the rules of the game. I mean, do you question why you collect $100 every time you pass 'Go' in Monopoly? It's the same situation here.
R315r4z0r wrote on Mon, 11 May 2009 00:41 Edit: OHH I get what you are trying to say. But I think you're stopping your reasoning a bit short. It's not simply that we are forgiven because he died for our sins. We are only forgiven if we believe he did. Think of it sort of like a two part objective for each individual person's debt to be payed off. Him dying would meet the first objective, us believing would be the second objective. It's not a question of whether or not it is reasonable or not, it's simply the rules of the game. I mean, do you question why you collect $100 every time you pass 'Go' in Monopoly? It's the same situation here. If a debt is forgiven, then a debt is forgiven. It's that debt that separates us from God and Heaven, and that was paid by Christ's death on the cross. Nothing else keeps us from God but our sinfulness. Which, again, is overtaken by Christ's death. Besides, you just lead me back into my second point. If we have to BELIEVE that Christ died on the cross for our sins, then it wasn't the dying that clears our debt, but our acknowledgment of the falsified payment (that are are to believe is truth!). Also, we're not capable of earning our way into Heaven. It's through Christ ONLY that we are able to achieve salvation. Having a 'second objective' negates Christ being the ONLY way.
I think because the jews turned against jesus they gave us all a "sin" like god saying "you humans don't like my boy, now you will all go to hell when you die", so when jesus gave himself up. he got on the sweet side of god by saying we don't know what we're doing and please forgive us. I don't see why he couldn't of just said that to him and ran away, but there you go. fairy tales are like that.
R315r4z0r wrote on Sun, 10 May 2009 21:10 You can lie for a good cause. That may have been his reasoning. As for the topic, I can't understand what you are trying to say.. (or I am, but it just doesn't hold any real 'discussion value') Are you trying to say simply 'why can't you just say he died because he died and not for the sake of anyone else?' Because if you are then the answer is yes.. obviously. But what exactly are you trying to get at with that? So you deny that he died for your sins.. what's your point? we should alway talk axiom if you are bouncer someday you will grieve you know shepherd boy?
cheesesoda wrote on Sun, 10 May 2009 16:35 DAUGHTER DIVER wrote on Sun, 10 May 2009 17:33 jesus is fiction right? Jesus was an actual person, but he was either a liar or a lunatic. jesus is liar or lunatic? i think founder of Christianity is bouncer he make jesus for prosperity priest of christianity use ferrari drink romane gonti devour caviar+cracker+cheese, lobster,foie gras,matsuzaka beef[sirloin],king crab,matsutake mushroom,truffle use rolex ีwatch plasma or lcd tv
cheesesoda wrote on Sun, 10 May 2009 14:16 Nobody said that debts pay-offs can't have conditions to them, though. In order to reap the benefits of Jesus' death paying off my debt, I have to recognize that he paid off my debt. It's a simple requirement for such a huge debt to be paid. But that leaves you with the question of "why", which means if you buy into this you're left scratching your balls. Or using some generic cop-out answer like "It's FAITH LOL!" or "God moves in MYSTERIOUS WAYS LOL!".
i've already expressed my revulsion at the whole "christ died for my sins" business in the first place (in a nutshell, if the price for my 'forgiveness' is the torture and execution of somebody else, i'd rather be unforgiven)... but one supposedly has to accept jesus into your life to reap the benefits, and by refusing to do so (i.e. not being a christian) one is increasing jesus' suffering. the irony is, the people who've been telling us this tripe for two thousand years... CLEARLY view the whole crucifixion business as a good thing. i can just imagine their inner joy if they were there, whereas if i was there i'd do what i could to stop it.
Spoony wrote on Mon, 11 May 2009 06:22 i've already expressed my revulsion at the whole "christ died for my sins" business in the first place (in a nutshell, if the price for my 'forgiveness' is the torture and execution of somebody else, i'd rather be unforgiven)... but one supposedly has to accept jesus into your life to reap the benefits, and by refusing to do so (i.e. not being a christian) one is increasing jesus' suffering. the irony is, the people who've been telling us this tripe for two thousand years... CLEARLY view the whole crucifixion business as a good thing. i can just imagine their inner joy if they were there, whereas if i was there i'd do what i could to stop it. I'm not exactly 100% Christian, but I've been raised around Christians and am still sort of forced to go to Church and a Christian Youth Group, but from what I've seen people view Jesus's crucifixion with a sort of sad appreciation. I understand completely your point about how terrible it is to live at someones expense, but the way Catholics particularly view it is that albeit horrible the way he was killed, and sad the loss of the messiah etc, it was a display of love by God for us by sacrificing his only child etc. I do find that a little disturbing, but most Christians look beyond that and at the overall purpose of the act for inspiration/faith.
it's completely absurd and totally violates basic morality... firstly how can anyone be guilty of a sin committed by Adam? even if the adam story is true (and it takes a pretty dumb fuck to think it is) how can anyone who wasn't even alive at the time bear responsibility for it? (the same goes to the two thousand years of Christian anti-semitism, thanks to one single line in one of the four gospels which claims that ALL jews are responsible for the crucifixion, not just those jews who happened to be there at the time and place and involved in the situation) secondly, if god wanted to forgive our sins (legitimate ones or bullshit ones committed by someone else) why not just forgive them? why must someone else be tortured and killed as the price? if one decides to accept this "forgiveness", isn't one basically accepting some level of responsibility for the crucifixion? Quote: it was a display of love by God for us by sacrificing his only child etc yeah, we hear that sort of thing a lot, like how god's genocide of nearly the entire planet by a flood was anything other than evil, like how abraham's attempted murder of his innocent son was a noble act, etc etc etc finally, here's a question... what will be the price for god's forgiveness for all the crimes he's allegedly committed? we could go through the bible and rack up a quite staggering death toll. in one of these threads i made the suggestion that if jesus IS god (as we're told, for all the sense it makes...) then maybe the crucifixion was god's punishment for all the evil he did, albeit an extremely lenient one, relatively speaking. certainly not an eye for an eye.
Spoony wrote on Mon, 11 May 2009 09:54 it's completely absurd and totally violates basic morality... firstly how can anyone be guilty of a sin committed by Adam? even if the adam story is true (and it takes a pretty dumb fuck to think it is) how can anyone who wasn't even alive at the time bear responsibility for it? (the same goes to the two thousand years of Christian anti-semitism, thanks to one single line in one of the four gospels which claims that ALL jews are responsible for the crucifixion, not just those jews who happened to be there at the time and place and involved in the situation) secondly, if god wanted to forgive our sins (legitimate ones or bullshit ones committed by someone else) why not just forgive them? why must someone else be tortured and killed as the price? if one decides to accept this "forgiveness", isn't one basically accepting some level of responsibility for the crucifixion? Quote: it was a display of love by God for us by sacrificing his only child etc yeah, we hear that sort of thing a lot, like how god's genocide of nearly the entire planet by a flood was anything other than evil, like how abraham's attempted murder of his innocent son was a noble act, etc etc etc finally, here's a question... what will be the price for god's forgiveness for all the crimes he's allegedly committed? we could go through the bible and rack up a quite staggering death toll. in one of these threads i made the suggestion that if jesus IS god (as we're told, for all the sense it makes...) then maybe the crucifixion was god's punishment for all the evil he did, albeit an extremely lenient one, relatively speaking. certainly not an eye for an eye. you know shepherd boy?
Most of this discussion seems to me that, for those who do believe, they think that just simply believing in the fact that he died for our sins is ALL you have to do to be saved. In Christianity, if you believe Jesus died for our sins, but you do not follow the Bible (5-step plan, live a faithful life, ask forgiveness for your own sins), then you're still condemned. Faith is not enough to save you. Apologies if this is off-subject, but it seems like most of this discussion is about the debt being paid. That debt-being-paid aspect alone won't save anyone. cheesesoda wrote on Sun, 10 May 2009 14:24 So... answer the question, if Jesus died for our sins, why must we believe that he did for our debt to be paid? If someone paid my debt off, I wouldn't HAVE to acknowledge that the debt was paid for that to be true, right? I mean, this especially being so if I don't even know I HAD a debt to begin with. I'd say that if you don't believe a debt was paid, you also don't believe in the person who paid it, IE Jesus, and I don't think there will be anyone in Heaven who doesn't believe in Jesus (unless they don't have the mental capacity to understand the story, IE children who die at a very young age or those born mentally handicapped).
How does not recognizing the debt or the payor somehow negate the payment? The payment is made regardless of understanding that it even existed in the first place.
It doesn't. I'm trying to say that the debt being paid is not the only requirement for being saved.
Perhaps we are using the wrong word. Instead of "believing" we should instead be using "accepting." We don't have to 'believe' he died for our sins, because when you believe something or not, there is always an absolute truth behind the matter and it is always the same regardless of what you think. If we replace the word 'believe' with 'accept,' then it makes more sense. Basically, you are in charge of your own sins. You can't let someone else manage them. Jesus dying for your sins supposedly gives you a way to 'renew' yourself. However, that 'renewal' wont happen without your permission. Therefore, you must 'accept' his sacrifice and allow your sins to be forgiven. If you don't accept his sacrifice as a renewal for your sins, then your sins wont be renewed. Just because something is available, doesn't necessarily mean that you will automatically receive it. You have to allow yourself to obtain it, or else you wont ever get it. Does that make sense?
R315r4z0r wrote on Mon, 11 May 2009 16:28 Perhaps we are using the wrong word. Instead of "believing" we should instead be using "accepting." We don't have to 'believe' he died for our sins, because when you believe something or not, there is always an absolute truth behind the matter and it is always the same regardless of what you think. If we replace the word 'believe' with 'accept,' then it makes more sense. Basically, you are in charge of your own sins. You can't let someone else manage them. Jesus dying for your sins supposedly gives you a way to 'renew' yourself. However, that 'renewal' wont happen without your permission. Therefore, you must 'accept' his sacrifice and allow your sins to be forgiven. If you don't accept his sacrifice as a renewal for your sins, then your sins wont be renewed. Just because something is available, doesn't necessarily mean that you will automatically receive it. You have to allow yourself to obtain it, or else you wont ever get it. Does that make sense? ...No. Not at all. I don't have to "accept" a loan from my parents to pay off student loans if they make the payment for me. I can throw the money away, or actively do something to disrupt the process if I really want to stop it, but I can't passively reject the favor and affect the outcome. Assuming Jesus died for my sins, my opinion on it doesn't sway the situation one way or the other. It happened several thousand years ago. It's done. How I feel about it isn't going to change it.
Yes you can. You can say, "Mom, dad, I don't want your money, I will pay for it myself. Thanks anyway."
R315r4z0r wrote on Mon, 11 May 2009 18:02 Yes you can. You can say, "Mom, dad, I don't want your money, I will pay for it myself. Thanks anyway." Right, but then it's on her to actually follow through with my wishes and NOT do whatever it she's going to do (Which is something Jesus can't do, since he already did it).
R315r4z0r wrote on Mon, 11 May 2009 16:28 Perhaps we are using the wrong word. Instead of "believing" we should instead be using "accepting." We don't have to 'believe' he died for our sins, because when you believe something or not, there is always an absolute truth behind the matter and it is always the same regardless of what you think. If we replace the word 'believe' with 'accept,' then it makes more sense. Basically, you are in charge of your own sins. You can't let someone else manage them. Jesus dying for your sins supposedly gives you a way to 'renew' yourself. However, that 'renewal' wont happen without your permission. Therefore, you must 'accept' his sacrifice and allow your sins to be forgiven. If you don't accept his sacrifice as a renewal for your sins, then your sins wont be renewed. Just because something is available, doesn't necessarily mean that you will automatically receive it. You have to allow yourself to obtain it, or else you wont ever get it. Does that make sense? ืno one can become sub get your sin when you dead you will go to hell and get punishment for your sin you make by your life you will live in hell and get punishment until you don't have sin then you can have freedom but someone who make sin abound will get eternal punishment and never get freedom
Dover wrote on Mon, 11 May 2009 22:29 R315r4z0r wrote on Mon, 11 May 2009 18:02 Yes you can. You can say, "Mom, dad, I don't want your money, I will pay for it myself. Thanks anyway." Right, but then it's on her to actually follow through with my wishes and NOT do whatever it she's going to do (Which is something Jesus can't do, since he already did it). Yes, exactly. But anyway, I don't understand what your tuition costs have to do with renewing one's sins..
R315r4z0r wrote on Tue, 12 May 2009 14:14 Dover wrote on Mon, 11 May 2009 22:29 R315r4z0r wrote on Mon, 11 May 2009 18:02 Yes you can. You can say, "Mom, dad, I don't want your money, I will pay for it myself. Thanks anyway." Right, but then it's on her to actually follow through with my wishes and NOT do whatever it she's going to do (Which is something Jesus can't do, since he already did it). Yes, exactly. But anyway, I don't understand what your tuition costs have to do with renewing one's sins.. Nothing. I'm using the act of paying for one's debt as a metaphor for paying for one's sins.
cnc95fan wrote on Sun, 10 May 2009 16:54 I'm getting sick of all these "questions for Christians" I'm not even a Christian, and yet I'm also getting sick of it. People should stop shoving their beliefs down other peoples' throats; that includes Christians, Jews, Atheists, and any other body that would want to do something as silly as that.
While possible, it is very unlikely that someone will be successful in changing someone else's beliefs via a gaming forum where nobody knows who you really are. Threads like these should probably stop, since nobody has really changed anything except let be known where they stand...
Dover wrote on Tue, 12 May 2009 17:42 Nothing. I'm using the act of paying for one's debt as a metaphor for paying for one's sins. Well, the metaphor doesn't work. I only said that "one is in control of their own sins." Not "One is in control of their own sins, like they are with everything else in their life." In this case, you are obligated to either accept or deny that he died for your sins. If you accept it, then you accept forgiveness and get your sins renewed. If you deny, than you just go on living like you are. It has nothing to do with anything else. I mean, if someone said "I have a cold" would you automatically assume they were going to die simply because the fact that there are other diseases out there that are fatal? [NE Fobby[GEN] wrote on Tue, 12 May 2009 19:52] cnc95fan wrote on Sun, 10 May 2009 16:54 I'm getting sick of all these "questions for Christians" I'm not even a Christian, and yet I'm also getting sick of it. People should stop shoving their beliefs down other peoples' throats; that includes Christians, Jews, Atheists, and any other body that would want to do something as silly as that. Altzan wrote on Tue, 12 May 2009 20:57 While possible, it is very unlikely that someone will be successful in changing someone else's beliefs via a gaming forum where nobody knows who you really are. Threads like these should probably stop, since nobody has really changed anything except let be known where they stand... Take note at what I have said in this thread regarding the topic. Now realize that I, in fact, don't believe in any of the nonsense I've been saying. Therefore, both your post's accusations of people in this thread are wrong.
Is this what you're talking about? Altzan wrote on Tue, 12 May 2009 19:57 since nobody has really changed anything except let be known where they stand... Maybe I was too hasty in attaching people's thoughts here to their beliefs. You're not actually attaching yourself to either side, just simply joinign in the discussion. (That makes you a good debator, R315r4z0r...) Still, if anyone's opinion has changed in this thread, I have yet to see it. It is a good thing to hear the opposing point of view, though. It allows for a good comparison. For instance, if a bunch of Jehovah's Witnesses came to my door, I would know what was right and wrong about their beliefs but I would have a hard time explaining it. I am getting experience in how to respond to such questions, although it's source being a gaming forum is still kind of odd to me.
My brother has "turned into an atheist". However, when asked whyhe just says, "You wouldn't understand." Idiot hasn't realized that I have had my beliefs tested for about 3 years now on a monthly, sometimes weekly and daily basis. I'm pretty sure I'd understand why as you guys have caused me to question sometimes. Thanks, you have helped strengthen my faith. idiot brother.
R315r4z0r wrote on Tue, 12 May 2009 18:59 In this case, you are obligated to either accept or deny that he died for your sins. If you accept it, then you accept forgiveness and get your sins renewed. If you deny, than you just go on living like you are. But that wouldn't affect the outcome, because Jesus already did his thing (dying). The only way that metaphor works is if you believe Jesus is alive in some form deciding who gets to benefit from his sacrifice, which brings is back to "Idk it's faith LOL". Also, if that was the case, why did he need to die in the first place? What is the significance of the act if it's the acceptance that matters? R315r4z0r wrote on Tue, 12 May 2009 18:59 I mean, if someone said "I have a cold" would you automatically assume they were going to die simply because the fact that there are other diseases out there that are fatal? ...What?
[NE Fobby[GEN] wrote on Tue, 12 May 2009 18:52]I'm not even a Christian, and yet I'm also getting sick of it. People should stop shoving their beliefs down other peoples' throats; that includes Christians, Jews, Atheists, and any other body that would want to do something as silly as that. I don't really desire to convert anyone else to atheism, but as long as religion has undemocratically earned power over people like me (and in my country, it absolutely does) I reserve the right to challenge it and point out what a big crock of shit it all is.
Dover wrote on Wed, 13 May 2009 01:05 R315r4z0r wrote on Tue, 12 May 2009 18:59 In this case, you are obligated to either accept or deny that he died for your sins. If you accept it, then you accept forgiveness and get your sins renewed. If you deny, than you just go on living like you are. But that wouldn't affect the outcome, because Jesus already did his thing (dying). The only way that metaphor works is if you believe Jesus is alive in some form deciding who gets to benefit from his sacrifice, which brings is back to "Idk it's faith LOL". Also, if that was the case, why did he need to die in the first place? What is the significance of the act if it's the acceptance that matters? You're just not getting it. You're thinking in black in white. This isn't comparable to other situations. That's what I was getting at with the cold example. Just because there are other things in this world that exist that don't work the same way as this situation, doesn't make this situation wrong. It just makes it different. It's just how it is. Do you argue why there are certain rules in different games? Like "Why do I have to put red cards on black cards in solitaire?" It's like that because it's like that, don't try comparing it to anything else saying "Well, since this is like this, obviously that can't be right." Basic Summery: -His death is the price he pays to have everyone's sins forgiven. -You are ultimately in charge of your own sins, so you're sins wont be forgiven unless you give your consent to them being so. -By accepting the fact that his death gives you forgiveness, you receive that forgiveness. -By denying it, you don't receive the forgiveness. Bottom line, if you want to accept his offer to renew your sins, you believe in him. That's about as simple as it gets.
R315r4z0r wrote on Wed, 13 May 2009 17:40 Dover wrote on Wed, 13 May 2009 01:05 R315r4z0r wrote on Tue, 12 May 2009 18:59 In this case, you are obligated to either accept or deny that he died for your sins. If you accept it, then you accept forgiveness and get your sins renewed. If you deny, than you just go on living like you are. But that wouldn't affect the outcome, because Jesus already did his thing (dying). The only way that metaphor works is if you believe Jesus is alive in some form deciding who gets to benefit from his sacrifice, which brings is back to "Idk it's faith LOL". Also, if that was the case, why did he need to die in the first place? What is the significance of the act if it's the acceptance that matters? You're just not getting it. You're thinking in black in white. This isn't comparable to other situations. That's what I was getting at with the cold example. Just because there are other things in this world that exist that don't work the same way as this situation, doesn't make this situation wrong. It just makes it different. It's just how it is. Do you argue why there are certain rules in different games? Like "Why do I have to put red cards on black cards in solitaire?" It's like that because it's like that, don't try comparing it to anything else saying "Well, since this is like this, obviously that can't be right." Basic Summery: -His death is the price he pays to have everyone's sins forgiven. -You are ultimately in charge of your own sins, so you're sins wont be forgiven unless you give your consent to them being so. -By accepting the fact that his death gives you forgiveness, you receive that forgiveness. -By denying it, you don't receive the forgiveness. Bottom line, if you want to accept his offer to renew your sins, you believe in him. That's about as simple as it gets. But it's NOT different, at least not suitably different. Logic applies to everything, all the time, forever. No exceptions. To say "These are the rules, accept them as such and don't question them" is just a wordier variation on "idk it's faith LOL!!1!". Anything else is a cheap(er) cop-out. Bottom line: Just because that's what it says it some book doesn't make it make any more sense.
R315r4z0r wrote on Wed, 13 May 2009 20:40 -You are ultimately in charge of your own sins, so you're sins wont be forgiven unless you give your consent to them being so. How in the fuck do you figure that? If I don't give my parents consent to pay for my loan fees, but they do it anyway, how does that stop my fees from being paid? They're paid regardless of what I want/say/do. If someone pays for your debt, the debt is paid. You can say, "fuck you, Jesus, I don't need your paying for my sins", but if he already DID die for your sins, that doesn't change a fucking thing.
religion in one image:
I don't think that these forums are the best place to talk about religion.
Ma1kel wrote on Mon, 18 May 2009 09:46 religion in one image:
MasterEvolution wrote on Mon, 18 May 2009 11:53 I don't think that these forums are the best place to talk about religion. I'd have to agree.
I've always found them adequate for the purpose.
You guys are being thick headed. Think for a second, it's not a hard concept to understand. I don't believe it and yet it makes perfect sense. And no, Dover, you're wrong. Logic dictates what's supposed to happen (or what has happened) if a specific even occurs ("If this is like that, then logically this will happen.") It's not a way to uniform every single choice for every different problem out there to have the same or similar answers/results. If you haven't noticed, religion isn't logical. It's believe or don't believe. That's it. There is no reasoning why, there is no connecting the dots between events. It simply is what it is. As for the money thing. Even if it didn't end up the way you wanted, that doesn't deter from the idea that you are ultimately in charge of things you want and don't want. (For example, you obviously wouldn't want to be shot, but that doesn't mean you wont be if you run into someone with a gun.) However, more over, accepting/denying money is of a totally different situation than what we are speaking of. Maybe if I simplify the idea I'm trying to express by combining it with what you seem to be stuck on, it will be easier to understand. Let's say for example, your parents come into enough money to pay off your tuition costs. However, they ask you and give you the option of if you want them to pay it for you or if you want to pay it for yourself. Thinking about it this way is the same thing I'm trying to say with this whole Jesus thing. Jesus has come into the power to renew your sins. However, he leaves the choice up to you as to if you want them renewed or not. Since you obviously can't just walk up to him and ask him to renew your sins, you simply either believe he can do it or deny he can do it. That's it. You guys are thinking into it way too much. It's just: Jesus: Do you want your sins renewed? Person1: Yes Jesus: Ok, then all you have to do is believe in me.
You're right... if Christianity was simply about the BELIEF in Christ, but that's not it. The debt was paid by Christ's dying on the cross. The belief being needed is what's in question. Again, going back to the quote in my first post... if it's the belief, then Christ's dying on the cross is a psychological ploy. If his death on the cross was the payment, then there's no need for belief.
We are just going in circles. It's as if there is some sort of psychological block that makes it impossible to understand what I'm saying.. You asked a question, and I'm trying my best to help you obtain an answer. But all I'm getting from you people are insults and hostility. I'm not doing anything to offend anyone, I'm just trying to aid in the understanding of the idea this topic was made to discuss, so why is everyone hating on me? It's as if no one wants to know what the answer to what they are asking. "What? You're trying to talk on topic? What are you? A moron?" Let me make one thing clear: What I've been saying in this thread is all conjecture from my own personal behalf about what I believe the idea behind what's in question means. I, in no way, believe it or chose to believe it, I'm simply trying to understand what is trying to be conveyed. Now, as for the topic. His death ALONE isn't the cost! It's his death and your belief. It's not one or the other, its both! By him dying, he came into power to forgive your sins. That's all that amounts to. Just because he has that power, doesn't mean he will use it. But because he has that power, and is willing to use it, he is giving people the choice of if they want that power used on them or not. If they want the power used on them, they have to believe in him. That's the cost of forgiveness. If they don't want the power used on them, then they don't have to do anything. His death is not the price he payed to renew your sins, its the price he payed to gain the ability to do so.
I agree with you, Razor. The only part I don't agree with (and I know you might not either) is: R315r4z0r wrote on Sat, 23 May 2009 20:27 Jesus: Do you want your sins renewed? Person1: Yes Jesus: Ok, then all you have to do is believe in me. The aspect of whether the debt is paid by your awareness or not is important, but in the big picture, it's only one step to being saved. If someone heard the story of Jesus, believes, and prays for forgiveness, asks for the debt to be paid, and that's all they do... they're going to hell. Why? There's more to it. To those questioning the debt aspect... which do you believe: faith is all you need, or faith + works (5-step plan to salvation)?
Yea, you're right about that, Altzan.
R315r4z0r wrote on Sat, 23 May 2009 18:27 If you haven't noticed, religion isn't logical. It's believe or don't believe. That's it. There is no reasoning why, there is no connecting the dots between events. It simply is what it is.[/i] ...And therein lies the problem, because things that fall into this category tend to be not true. Logic and truth are inseparable concepts. To have something deny logic is to deny it's validity (Assuming one has all available information).
The problem is that we live in a day and age where everyone wants hardcore proof before believing anything. It's good to be cautious, but this is one of the things you simply have to apply faith. Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Dover wrote on Tue, 26 May 2009 01:24 ...And therein lies the problem, because things that fall into this category tend to be not true. Logic and truth are inseparable concepts. To have something deny logic is to deny it's validity (Assuming one has all available information). Two things: Your statement is incorrect. To have something that denies or defies logic, doesn't mean it denies its validity. It just means that its validity is called into question. That takes me into the second thing that I wanted to say. You are still missing the point of what I'm trying to say. Just because something exists that says something else is what it is, doesn't make it an absolute truth. For example, scientific laws that were defined centuries ago are still, to this day, being proven incorrect and new theories and knowledge is taking their place. There is always at least one exception to every rule. Denying the logic of something doesn't deny its validity, it only puts its validity into question. Or, it puts the logic behind it into question. Now, moving onto what I was trying to imply. All "logic" isn't the same, like you seem to be implying. It depends on the situation and what you are taking into question. If you can logically figure out something one way, that doesn't mean that one way will work for every other problem out there. Just like that parents paying your tuition example is different and uses different logic to this Jesus example. They are different situations, different rules to different games, if you will. If you have to role a 6 in order to start moving your chips in the game 'Trouble,' that doesn't mean you have to follow the same rule when you are playing a game like Monopoly. Even if the 'games' have similarities, that doesn't mean they follow the same ideals. In one example, you are given the choice of what happens. In the other example, you aren't. Therefore, with that fact alone, the two are completely different and therefore are unrelated. You cannot relate them through logic because the logic used is different in each scenario. You seem to be too tied down to life to understand. Take what my signature says to heart and use it to move ahead!
I can't really add to Razor's post, but I'll say this: religion is one of the few things that doesn't follow [scientific] logic. If you firmly will not believe something unless there's proof and logic to back it up, you're a hopeless case.
Altzan wrote on Tue, 26 May 2009 20:54 I can't really add to Razor's post, but I'll say this: religion is one of the few things that doesn't follow [scientific] logic. If you firmly will not believe something unless there's proof and logic to back it up, you're a hopeless case. that sounds like a load of bullshit and what one would say who is desperately grabbing at anything that would validify their ignorance and waste of time with religion
Holy crap, Rocko said something intelligent.
R315r4z0r wrote on Tue, 26 May 2009 18:07 Two things: Your statement is incorrect. To have something that denies or defies logic, doesn't mean it denies its validity. It just means that its validity is called into question. That's what I meant. R315r4z0r wrote on Tue, 26 May 2009 18:07 [color=red]You are still missing the point of what I'm trying to say. Just because something exists that says something else is what it is, doesn't make it an absolute truth. For example, scientific laws that were defined centuries ago are still, to this day, being proven incorrect and new theories and knowledge is taking their place. There is always at least one exception to every rule. You misunderstand the term "law" when it comes to science. Things that have even the remotest possibility of being incorrect are not laws. That's why it's still called "Theory of Gravity", even though the concept of gravity is pretty basic. R315r4z0r wrote on Tue, 26 May 2009 18:07 Now, moving onto what I was trying to imply. All "logic" isn't the same, like you seem to be implying. It depends on the situation and what you are taking into question. If you can logically figure out something one way, that doesn't mean that one way will work for every other problem out there. Just like that parents paying your tuition example is different and uses different logic to this Jesus example. They are different situations, different rules to different games, if you will. If you have to role a 6 in order to start moving your chips in the game 'Trouble,' that doesn't mean you have to follow the same rule when you are playing a game like Monopoly. Even if the 'games' have similarities, that doesn't mean they follow the same ideals. In one example, you are given the choice of what happens. In the other example, you aren't. Therefore, with that fact alone, the two are completely different and therefore are unrelated. You cannot relate them through logic because the logic used is different in each scenario. TL;DRing these several paragraphs, and combining them with your "Religion isn't logical" comment from earlier, it seems like you're trying to create a protected, logic-proof status for religion(s). While it would be nice from a believer's perspective, the world simply doesn't work that way. R315r4z0r wrote on Tue, 26 May 2009 18:07 You seem to be too tied down to life to understand. Take what my signature says to heart and use it to move ahead! Kick logic to the curb? I'd rather get AIDS and die.
Rocko wrote on Tue, 26 May 2009 22:23 Altzan wrote on Tue, 26 May 2009 20:54 I can't really add to Razor's post, but I'll say this: religion is one of the few things that doesn't follow [scientific] logic. If you firmly will not believe something unless there's proof and logic to back it up, you're a hopeless case. that sounds like a load of bullshit and what one would say who is desperately grabbing at anything that would validify their ignorance and waste of time with religion Actually, the people wanting proof are those desperately looking for a reason not to believe something they don't want to believe because they want am easier path.
I thought I could ignore this thread but... Altzan wrote on Tue, 26 May 2009 20:54 If you firmly will not believe something unless there's proof and logic to back it up, you're a hopeless case. Most definitely not when it comes to religion. With all due respect, the fact of the matter is that a thousand religions came before yours. The God of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam came into existence ONLY because of thousands of years of religious consolidation of ideologies in which the concept of polytheism grinded down into monotheism. We still have polytheism left over in a select few areas of the world while monotheistic religions today prominently fall into the category of major religions. So how can ANY of the major religions impose their TRUTH (or their flavored versions) when they themselves owe their existence to dead pagan religions? Once you sincerely realize that very important truth, you will see 100% of the credibility of your religion gone. But you probably still got some more steam left: -fear of hell -faith (either in desperation or a "my religion is still right!" tone) Let me point out to you one very important thing and I challenge you to answer it. Where do you think the souls of the non-Christian humans go after they die? It's a very fair question to ask. I would really like to know where the souls of those who worshipped Ra, Zeus, Athena, and Buddah went. They can't possibly be in the Christian hell with them having never heard of it. As far as faith goes, it is nothing but the one-word stunner to make one console themselves (or make themselves comfortable in times of adversity) to be correct while in fact they are usually dead wrong. Faith amounts to nothing...absolutely nothing but a form of self-conviction that a certain view is correct no matter how many times it has been proved wrong. I left Christianity when I discovered that it is indeed full of violence and that I have been lied to all these years by ministers and my parents. As Spoony pointed out earlier, God forbids not to kill yet he wiped out most humans in a massive flood. He then makes a covenant in which he regrets his actions and promises never to use water to kill again (creates the rainbow as well in the process). And over and over again he uses men like Joshua and King Saul to invade enemy cities and kill "every man, woman, child, and cattle." In fact, he punishes King Saul for sparing the livestock of one of the cities he wanted destroyed. ^ When the dumbfuck in me realized that, I quit Christianity FOR GOOD. I REFUSE to worship such a god who I was fooled into thinking was actually merciful. For over 2000 years the Church and it's ministers have conveniently ignored the bloodythirstiness and the violence of the Christian religion. Ask anyone on the morning train to work and they will all say how Christianity is the peaceful one of all the three major religions! Once you see through this veil and inform yourself, you will see how absolutely disgusting it is. But I doubt you will be disgusted just yet as you still think that Jesus dying on a cross painfully was well worth it, right? I will refer back to what Spoony posted earlier: Spoony wrote on Mon, 11 May 2009 05:22 the irony is, the people who've been telling us this tripe for two thousand years... CLEARLY view the whole crucifixion business as a good thing. i can just imagine their inner joy if they were there, whereas if i was there i'd do what i could to stop it. Jesus seems to be the grandest of all blackmail ploys. Absurd is how contrary the teachings of Jesus is compared to his murderous Father; This was the God who became so angry that Israeli men were sleeping with Moabite women during their Exodus from Egypt that his anger was "not lifted" till a faithful Israeli stuck a spear through the bodies of the Israeli man and the Moabite woman while they were making love in a tent. How absurd and unfair is that? Cruelly killed for heeding to the law of nature! And God becomes happier after that! And you check back to Jesus and what does Jesus do to the woman who committed adultery? He says to the accusers that she can only be stoned if they [accusers] are clean themselves! Nice attitude change all of a sudden. And let's not forget that Jesus WAS God in human form. It's pretty obvious Jesus physically died on the cross. The fairy tale about his return was most probably written by unknown authors decades later. During my 2nd year in college a few years ago, during the exams, I went down to my favorite spot in the library to study. It was the perfect spot to study in, no traffic, no noise. But on that day, two girls came to that same exact spot. How dare they intrude upon my secluded study spot! But I was pleased that they were quiet. Many hours passed and finally one of them got up to leave. She said quietly to her friend, "we will do well, I will pray to Allah." The other responded "I will pray to Allah too and we will pass." She left. I was a Christian at that point (the devout type that prays before taking exams, food, etc). And I sat there like an absolute douche as the enormity of what I just heard went through my mind. I could not study from that point onwards; my brain went hyper. Wait a minute! I prayed to Jesus for help in the exams. And I know Jesus never fails me! But these girls...these girls are praying to Allah! He is not real...he is fake! How can he help them pass! He is a warmongering criminal! He orders the suicide bombers! A killer! The thoughts that went through my head that day always haunted me. That incident kickstarted my quest to uncover the truths about religion. Which religion is right? Which one is wrong? Is religion just made up by isolated groups of humans to help them go thru their everday life? Is that why there were and are so many religions on our planet? I concluded recently that all of them must be right; they are all correct in their tiny little worlds that they create for themselves. I asked myself, those girls don't know Jesus so they must be going to hell to be tortured. Pastors will always sing to you and tell how if you accept Jesus you get everlasting life but what they forcefully ignore is that those who don't accept Jesus will go to hell. They never tell you this. I refuse to belong to such sadistic hypocrisy. When will you face the hard facts and answer the difficult questions, Altzan? Or will you sink back to your protected religious cocoon and condemn those who don't belong in your group as "worldy" people? Though I don't have to do this and hate to reveal personal stuff, let me write about my belief chronology. Just so you know that I humbly and truly mean what I have said so far. -born into a conservative Christian family -finished reading the Bible around 12 -wanted to be a pastor when I was 15-16 -for next 5 years, my resolve weakened and I became a normal Christian (sin during weekdays, repent on Sundays) -living with my parents throughout high school, they protected me well against non-Christian ideals: Taken to Church every Sunday, taken to group prayer meetings in people's homes, went to churches around the country for monthly meetings, did Church related volunteering work (all are deadly effective control ploys to keep you from challenging your beliefs and going off course). Why do you think Muslims are commanded to pray 5 times a day? Not to appease Allah but to keep their minds in line and not stray off. We are talking SERIOUS thoughtcrime here... If today you were dragged to a Mosque and told to worship Allah, will you do it? Of course not. That's how I felt when I was literally screamed at and told to shut the fuck up and get in the car to church. You probably have not faced such a situation so my words are just garbage to you but I am being absolutely honest here. When I think back to those horrible days, it sends a shiver down my spine...I feel sick and nightmarish when I think back to those days. I have been a Christian every step of the way; I read the Bible, wanted to be a minister, was a devout follower at one point, then became a casual Christian, then a Christian who just did not care, then some form of anti-religious freak, then back for some reason to Christianity with great zealous force (even despising homosexuals to a point I never reached before) but that did not last long, then finally to who I am now and who I will be. Why all these changes? It difficult to ignore the facts all the time. I tried very very hard to be Christian and my Christian friends here in this forum know it too well. But ultimately the steel door of religion that I was imprisoned behind failed to hide it's cracks and at one point the cracks became so obvious I was just able to kick the fucker down and run out. Without the help of a few good people who stood up for what is truly right, I would not have been able to do so. I am not a self-righteous intellectual prick; I WAS. I am not arrogant but I WAS. The moment I stopped to fear hell was the moment I can claim I truly reclaimed my mind. All the belief system I had been ingrained with were flushed out. The Christian insurance system of hell (to hold on to your mind) is something I casually laugh at today without fear. I would hope you think about all these things. For the first time in my life, I feel like a massive weight has been lifted off my mind. Like as if somebody just erased everything from a board. I have a fresh slate to work on. Damn it's a good feeling to not be a slave. I feel like I don't belong to any group and that is tremendously satisfying to me. I did not make this wall post to stamp anything on you or anyone. I did not make this post to show off any superiority. I did not make this post to show how better off I am. I had been honest with the writing of this post and revealed some personal information and shared real experiences; all to try to get across the point that I am NOT the "hopeless case" here as you imply of all those who choose to think freely with their minds outside corrupt religious thought control. That I have chosen to be what I am; NOT because I found religion too hard to follow or because I found an easier path (as you conveniently mention in your last post) but because the very foundations of Christianity and EVERY religion is false as explained above (refer to polytheism to monotheism) and that I want no part in the immoral bloodmongerism. In fact, I feel very very sorry for those still living behind the bars. I really really do. In the end, you can fearlessly dismiss the content of religions and thereby dismiss religion itself.
ljbh... you must feel better saying that, right? i've a question... that stuff you PM'd me about earlier and told me to keep quiet about (I have done so) - am I the only person you said that stuff to until now? Starbuck wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 22:19 Altzan wrote on Tue, 26 May 2009 20:54 If you firmly will not believe something unless there's proof and logic to back it up, you're a hopeless case. Most definitely not when it comes to religion. With all due respect, the fact of the matter is that a thousand religions came before yours. no shit. there have been thousands of gods throughout recorded history (well, of course, there have thought to have been...). When I hear a Christian/Muslim/whatever ask me why I don't believe in Yahweh or Allah, I just fail to see why I'm the one with any explaining to do. I don't think any of them are real - he thinks 4999 of them are not real but 1 of them is. Like I said... am I the one with any explaining to do here? Starbuck wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 22:19 I left Christianity when I discovered that it is indeed full of violence and that I have been lied to all these years by ministers and my parents. ^^ mmhmm. long ago you asked me what's wrong with bringing kids up to be christians? the answer is: there's nothing wrong with teaching kids about religion so long as it's done fairly. this means pointing out the bad sides of it as well as the good, it means pointing out the fact there's no proof for much of it, pointing out that we now have much better explanations for the creation of the world and the universe and ourselves, pointing out the fact the bible contradicts itself over and over and over etc etc etc... but of course, when people want to bring kids up to be christians, they don't do any of the above, and that is brainwashing. Starbuck wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 22:19 As Spoony pointed out earlier, God forbids not to kill yet he wiped out most humans in a massive flood. He then makes a covenant in which he regrets his actions and promises never to use water to kill again (creates the rainbow as well in the process). And over and over again he uses men like Joshua and King Saul to invade enemy cities and kill "every man, woman, child, and cattle." In fact, he punishes King Saul for sparing the livestock of one of the cities he wanted destroyed. ^ When the dumbfuck in me realized that, I quit Christianity FOR GOOD. I REFUSE to worship such a god who I was fooled into thinking was actually merciful. yep. in almost every religious debate i come across a christian or a muslim who claims to be devout - i find myself asking them if they've read the bible properly? they invariably haven't. i once made a challenge to a christian who was ranting about the devil. i said: go through your bible, every page, and make a note of everything bad Satan does. i'll go through mine and make a note of everything bad God does, or orders to be done, then we'll come back in a week's time and compare the lists. Starbuck wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 22:19 It's pretty obvious Jesus physically died on the cross. The fairy tale about his return was most probably written by unknown authors decades later. i don't have much of a problem accepting that a man called Jesus existed, or that he may have been a moral teacher and philosopher... or even that he was crucified. these are, after all, not extraordinary claims. anything supernatural is another matter entirely... Starbuck wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 22:19 But these girls...these girls are praying to Allah! He is not real...he is fake! How can he help them pass! He is a warmongering criminal! He orders the suicide bombers! A killer! here we have another irony. Allah purports to be the same god as Yahweh, simply a more recent revelation. Earlier I asked why someone would be convinced of one god's existence but sneers at the other thousands. well, if someone is convinced that Christianity is a genuine revelation from a genuine god (on no evidence)... why dismiss a more recent update from that god? surely islam supercedes christianity in the same way that christianity claims to supercede judaism. by extension, mormonism supercedes islam... Starbuck wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 22:19 I asked myself, those girls don't know Jesus so they must be going to hell to be tortured. yep. and most people just don't seem to realise the sheer evil of this concept. we quite rightly condemn the likes of stalin, who would kill you simply for disagreeing with him. but at least when you were dead he was more or less finished with you... with god, the real fun's just about to start. Starbuck wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 22:19 Pastors will always sing to you and tell how if you accept Jesus you get everlasting life but what they forcefully ignore is that those who don't accept Jesus will go to hell. They never tell you this. I'm honestly surprised by this, I hear it all the time. Starbuck wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 22:19 If today you were dragged to a Mosque and told to worship Allah, will you do it? Of course not. That's how I felt when I was literally screamed at and told to shut the fuck up and get in the car to church. You probably have not faced such a situation so my words are just garbage to you but I am being absolutely honest here. Yes, I know this stuff really happens, and I am fortunate to have parents who have always let me make my own mind up religion-wise. I actually thanked them for this exact thing a few months back. Perhaps you're now beginning to understand why I involve myself in these debates. I don't wanna ridicule people's religious ideas just to make them look stupid or because it's funny (although it sometimes is) - this is a moral point. Freedom of belief is a basic human right. And I define freedom of belief as the following: "everyone's allowed to make their own completely free, completely informed choice of belief, or non-belief". We simply do not have this, and I firmly believe we ought to... hence trying to raise awareness, for the sake of people like you. But you do have it better than some; the penalty for leaving Christianity isn't actually death... Starbuck wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 22:19 Why all these changes? It difficult to ignore the facts all the time. I tried very very hard to be Christian and my Christian friends here in this forum know it too well. But ultimately the steel door of religion that I was imprisoned behind failed to hide it's cracks and at one point the cracks became so obvious I was just able to kick the fucker down and run out. Without the help of a few good people who stood up for what is truly right, I would not have been able to do so. you almost certainly aren't finished making your mind up, but then as an atheist or agnostic, you've got time on your side. Starbuck wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 22:19 For the first time in my life, I feel like a massive weight has been lifted off my mind. Like as if somebody just erased everything from a board. I have a fresh slate to work on. Damn it's a good feeling to not be a slave. I feel like I don't belong to any group and that is tremendously satisfying to me. i am genuinely, genuinely happy to hear this.
Quote: Let me point out to you one very important thing and I challenge you to answer it. Where do you think the souls of the non-Christian humans go after they die? It's a very fair question to ask. I would really like to know where the souls of those who worshipped Ra, Zeus, Athena, and Buddah went. They can't possibly be in the Christian hell with them having never heard of it. Why not? Why would they not go to hell simply because they never heard about it? Quote: As far as faith goes, it is nothing but the one-word stunner to make one console themselves (or make themselves comfortable in times of adversity) to be correct while in fact they are usually dead wrong. Faith amounts to nothing...absolutely nothing but a form of self-conviction that a certain view is correct no matter how many times it has been proved wrong. Incorrect. Especially the last statement. "No matter how many times it has been proved wrong"? I don't see how Christianity has been proven false even once. Most people find it hard to accept faith because it is belief in something you can't see clearly. People convince themselves that there's no way any of this could be true, they refuse to believe it, but they'll know in the end. And when it comes down to debate over a person's faith, it's really down to one word against another. Throwing "proofs" around won't change someone else's opinion.
Altzan wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 08:50 Why not? Why would they not go to hell simply because they never heard about it? well, if they did, it would just be yet another example of how appallingly cruel and unjust this Yahweh character is... as if we needed another. he's also staggeringly incompetent; if he's gonna have a revelation which all humans must heed or suffer horrific punishments, he could at least have done it a little better. firstly it was centuries before some parts of the world heard about christianity (the whole jesus business, if it happened at all, happened in an illiterate hellhole... wouldn't it have made more sense to stage the whole thing in, say, China, where people can actually read and write?), secondly he shouldn't have made the whole thing so shaky and hard to believe in the first place. the only evidence we have is a book which contradicts itself at every turn, has signs of being tampered with, and doesn't even have a single consistent style of writing. do you suppose yourself to be a Christian? if so, answer the question i asked earlier. why aren't you a Muslim instead, since that revelation claims to come from the same god. Altzan wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 08:50 Incorrect. Especially the last statement. "No matter how many times it has been proved wrong"? I don't see how Christianity has been proven false even once. see above re: the bible continually contradicting itself. also see almost anywhere you see a religious person saying "no, it's a metaphor!" Altzan wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 08:50 Most people find it hard to accept faith because it is belief in something you can't see clearly. People convince themselves that there's no way any of this could be true, they refuse to believe it, but they'll know in the end. The Emperor Hirohito was the physical incarnation of a god. Kim Jong-Il and Kim Il-Sung are two incarnations of the same divine being, descended from heaven. Frozen yoghurt can make a man invisible. Do you believe these claims? If not, why not?
The Bible doesn't cotradict itself. I've listened to a lot of discussions about so-called contradictions, and why they're incorrect. And if he made the revelation easier to believe, many more would believe it...maybe. Maybe not. It's not hard to understand that the majority won't. "The path to heaven is staright and narrow, and few there be that find it." Not because God engineered it that way. It's because of people's choices. And the only people who will go to heaven without following God's plan of salvation are those who are physically incapable of understanding it.
Spoony wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 10:40 Frozen yoghurt can make a man invisible. coincidentally, this is true.
Altzan wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 16:54 The Bible doesn't cotradict itself. I've listened to a lot of discussions about so-called contradictions, and why they're incorrect. And if he made the revelation easier to believe, many more would believe it...maybe. Maybe not. It's not hard to understand that the majority won't. "The path to heaven is staright and narrow, and few there be that find it." Not because God engineered it that way. It's because of people's choices. And the only people who will go to heaven without following God's plan of salvation are those who are physically incapable of understanding it. Well 'god' controls every single atom of our existence. So he controls our choices and our actions. Even if he does not control them now, he knew what would happen in his 'inifite' wisdom. He also set off a massive chain of events when he 'created' the earth which would lead to people doing these actions. So this implies that god is infact just as evil as satan. So it's either one or the other. Either god doesn't know everything or he didn't create anything or he doesn't exist.
No, he does NOT control our actions. Even if he knows where we'll end up, it's still our choices that lead us there.
Altzan wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 17:55 No, he does NOT control our actions. Even if he knows where we'll end up, it's still our choices that lead us there. but if he started the long chain of events that eventually led to us then yes, he does control our actions. If you could map every single atom in the universe you could predict the future and see into the past. Although I realize this goes very deep into quantum mechanics and it doesn't work quite like that. god is supposed to have created everything, remember. Even the shockwaves from the "non-existant" big bang, and fossils from "non-existant" links in the chain of our evolution. If he created every single atom in existance, every single law of the universe. Every single dimension. He certainly well "programmed" the universe to act exactly as it is now, and that includes us.
Altzan wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 06:50 Most people find it hard to accept faith because it is belief in something you can't see clearly. People convince themselves that there's no way any of this could be true, they refuse to believe it, but they'll know in the end. Then you should have no trouble accepting the faith of my new religion, the Invisible Purple Flying Unicorn? (She's invisible, so we don't know that she's purple, but we believe it to be so). I know your God forbids the worship of any other God, but in a hypothetical situation where the Invisible Purple Flying Unicorn got to you first, would you have a problem with worshiping her?
jnz wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 12:05 Altzan wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 17:55 No, he does NOT control our actions. Even if he knows where we'll end up, it's still our choices that lead us there. but if he started the long chain of events that eventually led to us then yes, he does control our actions. If you could map every single atom in the universe you could predict the future and see into the past. Although I realize this goes very deep into quantum mechanics and it doesn't work quite like that. god is supposed to have created everything, remember. Even the shockwaves from the "non-existant" big bang, and fossils from "non-existant" links in the chain of our evolution. If he created every single atom in existance, every single law of the universe. Every single dimension. He certainly well "programmed" the universe to act exactly as it is now, and that includes us. But that doesn't mean he controls our CHOICES. We all can freely make a decision on what we believe. Quote: Then you should have no trouble accepting the faith of my new religion, the Invisible Purple Flying Unicorn? (She's invisible, so we don't know that she's purple, but we believe it to be so). I know your God forbids the worship of any other God, but in a hypothetical situation where the Invisible Purple Flying Unicorn got to you first, would you have a problem with worshiping her? The only way she could have "got to me first" would be through my parents, so I possibly might have. I doubt that would hold up over time, though.
Altzan wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 14:40 Quote: Then you should have no trouble accepting the faith of my new religion, the Invisible Purple Flying Unicorn? (She's invisible, so we don't know that she's purple, but we believe it to be so). I know your God forbids the worship of any other God, but in a hypothetical situation where the Invisible Purple Flying Unicorn got to you first, would you have a problem with worshiping her? I doubt that would hold up over time, though. Why not? With the exception of the minute details, it would probably be pretty similar to the faith you hold now. Change "Jesus" and "God" to "Unicorn", and you have an equally-valid relgion. You can even make smug, holier-than-thou comments about it, like Altzan wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 06:50 Most people find it hard to accept faith because it is belief in something you can't see clearly. People convince themselves that there's no way any of this could be true, they refuse to believe it, but they'll know in the end.
You should actually try to start this religion and spread it. I'd like to see how far it goes
Altzan wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 18:39 You should actually try to start this religion and spread it. I'd like to see how far it goes Considering how many people actually believe in religions, I'm guessing it would go far (if you create a nice plot, of course.)
AADude7 wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 23:09 Altzan wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 18:39 You should actually try to start this religion and spread it. I'd like to see how far it goes Considering how many people actually believe in religions, I'm guessing it would go far (if you create a nice plot, of course.) It doesn't even have to be a "nice plot" or even convincing. It just needs to be appealing. Also, you have to start with children. I mean, just look at how many kids were hooked into Pokemon, Neo Pets, Harry Potter, and now the Twilight books. None of them are "good" plots by any means, yet wildly popular. Again, the secret: kids.
Altzan wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 19:39 You should actually try to start this religion and spread it. I'd like to see how far it goes We already have our own Wikipedia page.
cheesesoda wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 22:14 I mean, just look at how many kids were hooked into Pokemon The first couple video games were pretty awesome though.
I lol'd at "irreligion"
Altzan wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 22:40 But that doesn't mean he controls our CHOICES. We all can freely make a decision on what we believe. Yes, it does. Our brains are mearly a mass of conductors that fire messages around the body. If god created every single atom of our existance then he not only created our brains and designed how it would react in diffrent enviroments, he also created that enviroment.
The Bible doesn't contradict itself? Have you even properly read it? For starters, the gospels disagree on almost every major event in Jesus' life. by the way, if you and jnz could take a minute from arguing over which colour the tooth fairy's shoes are, answer these two questions. Spoony wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 10:40 The Emperor Hirohito was the physical incarnation of a god. Kim Jong-Il and Kim Il-Sung are two incarnations of the same divine being, descended from heaven. Frozen yoghurt can make a man invisible. Do you believe these claims? If not, why not? Spoony wrote do you suppose yourself to be a Christian? if so, answer the question i asked earlier. why aren't you a Muslim instead, since that revelation claims to come from the same god. ^ altzan wrote You should actually try to start this religion and spread it. I'd like to see how far it goes It's already doing better than Islam. The Prophet Muhammed initially tried to spread his religion by means of non-violent preaching, and after a decade or so of that, hardly anyone gave a shit (certainly fewer than the number of people who, when asked their religion, say the unicorn religion). It was only once he changed his tactics and decided force would work better that Islam had any real followers, and the unicorn religion hasn't sunk to that level. Nor does it have a record of brainwashing children, for example, without which Christianity would be drastically less popular today. in this very thread you have a shining example of a person who's been literally brainwashed, and finally - after a great deal of strife - reached a level of intellectual freedom he didn't know existed before. and this is not in north korea or saudi arabia... this is in america. As for "we can all freely make a choice on what we believe"... what an odd definition of "freely" you seem to have. if you've been lied to by your education and/or your parents, it's not informed... and if you're threatened with horrific punishments for making the wrong choice, it's not 'free'. presumably you don't have a problem with the likes of Stalin, who would kill you simply for disagreeing with him? that is, after all, a more lenient punishment than the one you've alluded to, without a hint of defensiveness or regret.
Spoony wrote on Fri, 29 May 2009 01:43 Kim Jong-Il and Kim Il-Sung are two incarnations of the same divine being, descended from heaven. AirCraftKiller wrote on Tue, 04 March 2003 20:10 NO ONE FUCKING CARES ABOUT YOUR MODIFIED VERSION OF TSE-CHENG LO'S C&C CANYON MAP. more 'Dum Fuk Los' plox
Spoony wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 23:43 ljbh... you must feel better saying that, right? I don't feel like a hero or anything! but very very relieved to get that off my mind. Spoony wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 23:43 i've a question... that stuff you PM'd me about earlier and told me to keep quiet about (I have done so) - am I the only person you said that stuff to until now? Thanks for keeping that private; I appreciate it. I had not revealed it to anyone else; the stuff I told you were not discussed. I only had to say most of it here because without all my personal experiences and history, I felt it would be kinda empty. Spoony wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 23:43 Yes, I know this stuff really happens, and I am fortunate to have parents who have always let me make my own mind up religion-wise. I actually thanked them for this exact thing a few months back. I wish I had parents like that. Spoony wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 23:43 Perhaps you're now beginning to understand why I involve myself in these debates. I don't wanna ridicule people's religious ideas just to make them look stupid or because it's funny (although it sometimes is) - this is a moral point. Freedom of belief is a basic human right. And I define freedom of belief as the following: "everyone's allowed to make their own completely free, completely informed choice of belief, or non-belief". We simply do not have this, and I firmly believe we ought to... hence trying to raise awareness, for the sake of people like you. The main problem is that the chances of such discussion occuring in real life are slim to none. Not many people want to sit and talk and discuss this stuff. Unless they themselves are trying to raise awareness, of course but running into those people are rare. On the web, it is more straight forward. And I think you not retorting to petty insults and staying on-topic makes what you are saying have more credibility. In the end, if an idea is pointed out to be wrong and there is no need to follow it, then it makes sense not to follow it. It's like jumping off a ship into the sea because you realize that contrary to what people on the ship are saying, you find out the ship's going nowhere. And so there is no need to stay onboard. Spoony wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 23:43 Starbuck wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 22:19 For the first time in my life, I feel like a massive weight has been lifted off my mind. Like as if somebody just erased everything from a board. I have a fresh slate to work on. Damn it's a good feeling to not be a slave. I feel like I don't belong to any group and that is tremendously satisfying to me. i am genuinely, genuinely happy to hear this. There's no going back now.
Starbuck wrote on Fri, 29 May 2009 13:49 Spoony wrote on Wed, 27 May 2009 23:43 Yes, I know this stuff really happens, and I am fortunate to have parents who have always let me make my own mind up religion-wise. I actually thanked them for this exact thing a few months back. I wish I had parents like that. the reason my father took that attitude is precisely because his parents were much like yours; he found it miserable and didn't wanna raise his children the same way. that's not really true in my mother's case.
Im going with Roshambo's answer, changing 'if' to "there is a God", and adding "synapses" near brain. Also for fun:
cheesesoda wrote on Sun, 10 May 2009 14:24 Quote: If Christians believe Jesus died for our "sins" then they should logically believe no one is going to "Hell." If the incredible story must be believed in order to have the necessary effect, then the story thus becomes nothing more than a subtle psychological ploy instead of a debt actually paid. Jesus either died for us or he didn't. The debt was either paid or it wasn't. The rest is nonsense. So... answer the question, if Jesus died for our sins, why must we believe that he died for our debt to be paid? If someone paid my debt off, I wouldn't HAVE to acknowledge that the debt was paid for that to be true, right? I mean, this especially being so if I don't even know I HAD a debt to begin with. The "our" is for those in an exclusive club called Christianity. GG anyone outside, according to my beliefs.
IAmFenix wrote on Wed, 03 June 2009 17:27 according to my beliefs. It's a shame how those four words can justify any idea, no matter how retarded.
IAmFenix wrote on Wed, 03 June 2009 20:27 cheesesoda wrote on Sun, 10 May 2009 14:24 Quote: If Christians believe Jesus died for our "sins" then they should logically believe no one is going to "Hell." If the incredible story must be believed in order to have the necessary effect, then the story thus becomes nothing more than a subtle psychological ploy instead of a debt actually paid. Jesus either died for us or he didn't. The debt was either paid or it wasn't. The rest is nonsense. So... answer the question, if Jesus died for our sins, why must we believe that he died for our debt to be paid? If someone paid my debt off, I wouldn't HAVE to acknowledge that the debt was paid for that to be true, right? I mean, this especially being so if I don't even know I HAD a debt to begin with. The "our" is for those in an exclusive club called Christianity. GG anyone outside, according to my beliefs. You're just as much of a sinner as the rest of us. Christ's death pays for everyone's sins, present and future from that point. It's what allows people to be Christian.
What allows people to be Christian is their IQ. If it's below 100, you're in.
AADude7 wrote on Fri, 05 June 2009 13:15 What allows people to be Christian is their IQ. If it's below 100, you're in. Then welcome to the club!
Altzan wrote on Fri, 05 June 2009 15:43 AADude7 wrote on Fri, 05 June 2009 13:15 What allows people to be Christian is their IQ. If it's below 100, you're in. Then welcome to the club! Oh, I wouldn't want to intrude in your ... cult.
Bit late for that, isn't it
I had a feeling this thread wouldn't die.
I am genuinely interested in hearing your answers to this: Spoony wrote on Fri, 29 May 2009 01:43 by the way, if you and jnz could take a minute from arguing over which colour the tooth fairy's shoes are, answer these two questions. Spoony wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 10:40 The Emperor Hirohito was the physical incarnation of a god. Kim Jong-Il and Kim Il-Sung are two incarnations of the same divine being, descended from heaven. Frozen yoghurt can make a man invisible. Do you believe these claims? If not, why not? Spoony wrote do you suppose yourself to be a Christian? if so, answer the question i asked earlier. why aren't you a Muslim instead, since that revelation claims to come from the same god. ^
1. No, I do not believe these claims. As you have mentioned, those claims (and mine) are based on faith. It's my choice in what I put my faith into. 2. Muslims have a similar, yet different set of beliefs. I'm not familiar with their entire set, though. I might do some research later to familiarize myself with it.
Altzan wrote on Wed, 10 June 2009 16:21 1. No, I do not believe these claims. As you have mentioned, those claims (and mine) are based on faith. It's my choice in what I put my faith into. This begs the question "why?". Those claims are no more ridiculous than those in your bible. Of course it's your choice where you place your faith, but I'm sure this choice is guided by some reason, some logic?
Altzan wrote on Wed, 10 June 2009 18:21 1. No, I do not believe these claims. As you have mentioned, those claims (and mine) are based on faith. It's my choice in what I put my faith into. really? well... Altzan wrote The problem is that we live in a day and age where everyone wants hardcore proof before believing anything. It's good to be cautious, but this is one of the things you simply have to apply faith. Quote: Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. I can't really add to Razor's post, but I'll say this: religion is one of the few things that doesn't follow [scientific] logic. If you firmly will not believe something unless there's proof and logic to back it up, you're a hopeless case. Actually, the people wanting proof are those desperately looking for a reason not to believe something they don't want to believe because they want am easier path. your words, not mine. when the Emperor Hirohito or Kim Jong-Il make similar claims to divinity that Jesus made (if he even did), you "simply have to apply faith", and you're a "hopeless case" if you happen to think they're full of shit. it's not their fault for making such ludicrous claims... it's yours for not believing them. Altzan wrote on Wed, 10 June 2009 18:21 2. Muslims have a similar, yet different set of beliefs. I'm not familiar with their entire set, though. I might do some research later to familiarize myself with it. you haven't read the qur'an and the hadith? how negligent! they claim to be revelations from the same god you worship, and they came several centuries after the time of Jesus, so hadn't you better check on Yahweh's more recent instructions to you?
Spoony wrote on Wed, 10 June 2009 20:25 you haven't read the qur'an and the hadith? how negligent! they claim to be revelations from the same god you worship, and they came several centuries after the time of Jesus, so hadn't you better check on Yahweh's more recent instructions to you? How about no? His most recent instructions? Don't make me laugh. Dover said This begs the question "why?". Those claims are no more ridiculous than those in your bible. Of course it's your choice where you place your faith, but I'm sure this choice is guided by some reason, some logic? Yes, I don't place my faith here blindly. There are many reasons my faith resides here.
Altzan wrote on Wed, 10 June 2009 21:28 Spoony wrote on Wed, 10 June 2009 20:25 you haven't read the qur'an and the hadith? how negligent! they claim to be revelations from the same god you worship, and they came several centuries after the time of Jesus, so hadn't you better check on Yahweh's more recent instructions to you? How about no? His most recent instructions? Don't make me laugh. why not, you're making me laugh.