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The PM discussion from Rengooey - cleared
Very nice work but i agree with the last poster. Private Messages should be -well- private... No one else, not even the host should be able to read them.
RoShAmBo is evil
zunnie wrote on Sun, 08 February 2009 08:45 Very nice work but i agree with the last poster. Private Messages should be -well- private... No one else, not even the host should be able to read them. What if a moderator is being "abused" in private chat by an unhappy player? It's a lot easier, imo, to deal with this if the PM's are logged...
zunnie wrote on Sun, 08 February 2009 15:45 Very nice work but i agree with the last poster. Private Messages should be -well- private... No one else, not even the host should be able to read them. It's nice to have a quick cyber while playing renegade.
I have my client set to log chats. Take SS of PMs you want to show others. That's how I do it.
Zack wrote on Sun, 08 February 2009 15:54 zunnie wrote on Sun, 08 February 2009 08:45 Very nice work but i agree with the last poster. Private Messages should be -well- private... No one else, not even the host should be able to read them. What if a moderator is being "abused" in private chat by an unhappy player? It's a lot easier, imo, to deal with this if the PM's are logged... Moderators problem, s/he should be smart enough to turn on logging client side. I wouldn't want my PMs read.
Cos you use the PM system in ren to send each other messages that you absolutely don't want others to see?
insert_name_here wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 11:16 Cos you use the PM system in ren to send each other messages that you absolutely don't want others to see? Yeah actually I do.
Caveman wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 12:46 insert_name_here wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 11:16 Cos you use the PM system in ren to send each other messages that you absolutely don't want others to see? Yeah actually I do. So it's such important and private information that you absolutely have to send it as a message ingame as opposed to going on msn or something?
Much easier to F2 /name Yeah tell your brother to text me on <insert number here> than to alt tab, load msn, find the person and send a message.
Caveman wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 16:18 Much easier to F2 /name Yeah tell your brother to text me on <insert number here> than to alt tab, load msn, find the person and send a message. but you shouldn't be having a social conversation on a game, I would call that team hampering tbh. Not only that, admins and moderators are trustworthy enough to keep stuff private.
If its team hampering you might as well turn off any chat that isn't related to the game. So unless its F3 and its rush AGT or defend WF w/e it should be blocked. If server admins are so trustful you wouldn't mind joining my IRC server and for me to read your PMs? Its a PRIVATE message.. Its private... Pretty logical, wouldn't you say?
You are bound by the server's rules the moment you join it. If the owner and his mods want to read your private messages, he will do so. With or without your consent. It's not up to you to say if you want to "allow" him to. I'm not talking about this particular project, either. It is quite easy to hook private messages. It's even in my Hooks.dll.
Well then that servers clearly needs to tell you upon joining that your messages can/will be logged and read.
Caveman wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 18:59 Well then that servers clearly needs to tell you upon joining that your messages can/will be logged and read. This I agree with. It's quite possible to get derailed into a social conversation, or even pass sensitve information, in an ingame PM to another player. I wouldn't be happy with my PMs being logged by the server. By the people I send it to? Sure...
Caveman wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 18:59 Well then that servers clearly needs to tell you upon joining that your messages can/will be logged and read. Nope. Not if they don't want to. They don't need to "ask" or "tell" you that they're logging your IP address or serial hash, and nor do they need to tell you that they are logging your private messages.
I would have to say though that my IP/Serial hash is less important to me then what I might be telling others in PM's.... Doesn't feel right to me. I know that some other servers also read PM's. I could name one right now but it might be better for the sake of this convo not to. Now, back on topic. the plugin definitly looks useful to me.
Having the server log your serial hash and your IP address is not of any importance. What can you do with my hash and ip thats gonna worry me? I'd quite happily tell anyone my IP address and hash. However having it log potential sensitive info without me knowing is something entirely different. If I know the server is gonna read my PMs i'll make sure not to say something that I dont want anyone knowing. Its pretty logical, no? Have some common courtesy.
Prulez wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 12:27 I would have to say though that my IP/Serial hash is less important to me then what I might be telling others in PM's.... Doesn't feel right to me. I know that some other servers also read PM's. I could name one right now but it might be better for the sake of this convo not to. Now, back on topic. the plugin definitly looks useful to me. I've made a console command to toggle the logging of PM's on a specified player. I might consider releasing this plugin, but I'll have to talk to who I'm making this for before I do... I still have a few crash bugs to work out.
Caveman wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 19:47 Having the server log your serial hash and your IP address is not of any importance. What can you do with my hash and ip thats gonna worry me? I'd quite happily tell anyone my IP address and hash. However having it log potential sensitive info without me knowing is something entirely different. If I know the server is gonna read my PMs i'll make sure not to say something that I dont want anyone knowing. Its pretty logical, no? Have some common courtesy. You're using their server for free with them having to pay a bunch for it. You don't have the rights you might think you have.
insert_name_here wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 19:50 Caveman wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 19:47 Having the server log your serial hash and your IP address is not of any importance. What can you do with my hash and ip thats gonna worry me? I'd quite happily tell anyone my IP address and hash. However having it log potential sensitive info without me knowing is something entirely different. If I know the server is gonna read my PMs i'll make sure not to say something that I dont want anyone knowing. Its pretty logical, no? Have some common courtesy. You're using their server for free with them having to pay a bunch for it. You don't have the rights you might think you have. So with that logic you would agree that its ok for Microsoft to read our MSN conversations, the server owner on IRC to read your PMs, for parents to listen in on theres childs phone call.. etc... Just before you dont pay for it. If any of the above said that it would be logged/read you can bet your ass that I wouldn't use that service. I for one like my privacy.
From a Server Owner perspective, I don't see the need to look at people's PM's except for general curiosity. I don't think there's someone out there that's honestly going to tell people "lmao *cheat* is so fucking win". Then still, you could never know the level of retardness nowadays in ren. I wouldn't want to play on a server that logs my PM's, and I am sure that other people would agree with me on this.
Caveman wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 20:01 insert_name_here wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 19:50 Caveman wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 19:47 Having the server log your serial hash and your IP address is not of any importance. What can you do with my hash and ip thats gonna worry me? I'd quite happily tell anyone my IP address and hash. However having it log potential sensitive info without me knowing is something entirely different. If I know the server is gonna read my PMs i'll make sure not to say something that I dont want anyone knowing. Its pretty logical, no? Have some common courtesy. You're using their server for free with them having to pay a bunch for it. You don't have the rights you might think you have. So with that logic you would agree that its ok for Microsoft to read our MSN conversations, the server owner on IRC to read your PMs, for parents to listen in on theres childs phone call.. etc... Just before you dont pay for it. If any of the above said that it would be logged/read you can bet your ass that I wouldn't use that service. I for one like my privacy. Sure, if microsoft wanted to listen in on my MSN conversations they can knock themselves out. I have nothing to hide. Same for IRC conversations. It only takes more resources on their side, and if they were doing it then I know it's only with good intentions. This is the same for renegade, if someone is getting harassed in PM then not only can we prove it but we can ban on the spot without the player having to report it. About the phone, if was even possible. If I wanted to talk to someone and keep it private from my parents, I would use either: another service, or another form of communication. As I said before, I generally have nothing to hide so I probably wouldn't care. Again, I repeat. You have no control what-so-ever over someone else's server. If you don't like it, go play somewhere else.
RoShamBo wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 20:40 Caveman wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 20:01 insert_name_here wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 19:50 Caveman wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 19:47 Having the server log your serial hash and your IP address is not of any importance. What can you do with my hash and ip thats gonna worry me? I'd quite happily tell anyone my IP address and hash. However having it log potential sensitive info without me knowing is something entirely different. If I know the server is gonna read my PMs i'll make sure not to say something that I dont want anyone knowing. Its pretty logical, no? Have some common courtesy. You're using their server for free with them having to pay a bunch for it. You don't have the rights you might think you have. So with that logic you would agree that its ok for Microsoft to read our MSN conversations, the server owner on IRC to read your PMs, for parents to listen in on theres childs phone call.. etc... Just before you dont pay for it. If any of the above said that it would be logged/read you can bet your ass that I wouldn't use that service. I for one like my privacy. Sure, if microsoft wanted to listen in on my MSN conversations they can knock themselves out. I have nothing to hide. Same for IRC conversations. It only takes more resources on their side, and if they were doing it then I know it's only with good intentions. This is the same for renegade, if someone is getting harassed in PM then not only can we prove it but we can ban on the spot without the player having to report it. About the phone, if was even possible. If I wanted to talk to someone and keep it private from my parents, I would use either: another service, or another form of communication. As I said before, I generally have nothing to hide so I probably wouldn't care. Again, I repeat. You have no control what-so-ever over someone else's server. If you don't like it, go play somewhere else. Having something to hide doesn't have anything to do with it. Its a PRIVATE message, what gives you/microsoft/anyone the right to read my conversations? If such services are going to be used I want to know that its going to happen. So then I can play at another server, thats the point how am I meant to know what server logs and what doesnt when you're secretly reading my PMs?
Caveman wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 20:57 what gives you/microsoft/anyone the right to read my conversations? The very fact that they own and run the service. Caveman wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 20:57 If such services are going to be used I want to know that its going to happen. So then I can play at another server, thats the point how am I meant to know what server logs and what doesnt when you're secretly reading my PMs? That's tough luck, either don't send any or find a new game.
What could you possibly be discussing in an online game that's so important you don't want anyone to read it? I honestly couldn't care who's listening to my conversations so long as I'm not discussing things that have to do my financial records. Although, I do think people should be informed if they're being logged.
RoShamBo wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 21:05 Caveman wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 20:57 what gives you/microsoft/anyone the right to read my conversations? The very fact that they own and run the service. Caveman wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 20:57 If such services are going to be used I want to know that its going to happen. So then I can play at another server, thats the point how am I meant to know what server logs and what doesnt when you're secretly reading my PMs? That's tough luck, either don't send any or find a new game. God could you be any more arrogant? Just because you use someone services does NOT give them the right to track you without you knowing. If they say we're going to log what you say/type and then they find out something you didnt want them to know then thats your problem for speaking about it but if I was unwillingly giving out private conversations and they found out something that wasn't for there ears I would be pretty upset. Is that so hard to comprehend?
Re: The PM discussion from Rengooey - cleared
*grrr i think Daniel knows now that i wear pink pants* lol j/k Hmmmm whats the next thing you work on RoShAmBo ?
Caveman wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 21:33 God could you be any more arrogant? Just because you use someone services does NOT give them the right to track you without you knowing. If they say we're going to log what you say/type and then they find out something you didnt want them to know then thats your problem for speaking about it but if I was unwillingly giving out private conversations and they found out something that wasn't for there ears I would be pretty upset. Is that so hard to comprehend? Like already said earlier in the thread, this is not about MSN. This is about renegade, and you shouldn't be talking to people about private stuff. Take it out of the game. When TT comes reading private messages will be easy for developers to impliment. They won't even need my dll. You may as well get used to it.
RoShamBo wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 21:52 Caveman wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 21:33 God could you be any more arrogant? Just because you use someone services does NOT give them the right to track you without you knowing. If they say we're going to log what you say/type and then they find out something you didnt want them to know then thats your problem for speaking about it but if I was unwillingly giving out private conversations and they found out something that wasn't for there ears I would be pretty upset. Is that so hard to comprehend? Like already said earlier in the thread, this is not about MSN. This is about renegade, and you shouldn't be talking to people about private stuff. Take it out of the game. When TT comes reading private messages will be easy for developers to impliment. They won't even need my dll. You may as well get used to it. This argument isn't just for MSN. I wouldn't want a server owner and/or his mods knowing my private business. If you truly believe that we shouldn't be talking during game then why dont you make something to take chat out of it. If I want to message someone which tbh I have the right to then I shall. If the server is going to read what I say that at least tell people that you're doing it. Is that really so much to ask for?
Caveman wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 21:58 This argument isn't just for MSN. I wouldn't want a server owner and/or his mods knowing my private business. If you truly believe that we shouldn't be talking during game then why dont you make something to take chat out of it. If I want to message someone which tbh I have the right to then I shall. If the server is going to read what I say that at least tell people that you're doing it. Is that really so much to ask for? Don't take your private business to renegade, then.
RoShamBo wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 22:00 Caveman wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 21:58 This argument isn't just for MSN. I wouldn't want a server owner and/or his mods knowing my private business. If you truly believe that we shouldn't be talking during game then why dont you make something to take chat out of it. If I want to message someone which tbh I have the right to then I shall. If the server is going to read what I say that at least tell people that you're doing it. Is that really so much to ask for? Don't take your private business to renegade, then. I can see that caveman isn't arguing cos he sends private things to people, he's arguing just for the sake of arguing the point.
Drama
Wow, unbelievable. Im not even going to bother, the arrogance you show for other peoples privacy is truly unbelievable.
Caveman wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 22:51 Wow, unbelievable. Im not even going to bother, the arrogance you show for other peoples privacy is truly unbelievable. If that's the only response you can come out with you may as well not have. I respect the whole privacy thing, but really, what would you say over renegade that is so private that you are scared of the mods finding. Sure, you gave an example, but in that but in that one, if you were gonna stop and have a phone conversation via text or call you would be hampering the team, no matter how slightly. Besides, how often do you think people really pm each other stuff ingame?
insert_name_here wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 23:15 Caveman wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 22:51 Wow, unbelievable. Im not even going to bother, the arrogance you show for other peoples privacy is truly unbelievable. If that's the only response you can come out with you may as well not have. I respect the whole privacy thing, but really, what would you say over renegade that is so private that you are scared of the mods finding. Sure, you gave an example, but in that but in that one, if you were gonna stop and have a phone conversation via text or call you would be hampering the team, no matter how slightly. Besides, how often do you think people really pm each other stuff ingame? Its just easier for me to PM my brother or a friend then minimizing and loading MSN etc...It's not that people have something to hide its the point that they're listening in on people without them knowing and that is wrong. When im playing I use the PM system a lot, it doesn't take 2 secs to press F2 /name and the message. Its not a full blown conversation its just things that have no concern to others so I send via PM.
Moderators reading PMs is not much different to what I do in my job really, that is, preparing people's medical notes for when they come into hospital. To be able to prepare them, I sometimes have to read portions of it. They don't know I'm invading their privacy, but I am, that's my job. There is very sensitive information in them, and I know for a fact if they were my case notes I would not want anyone reading them. So ok, I have all their information, including name, address, telephone numbers. What do I do with that info? Absolutely nothing. The very same applies to renegade, moderators don't care at all about what information you give out in PM, they certainly wouldn't act on it. I don't see why someone, who is a complete stranger, knowing a small bit of insignificant information about you is "invading your privacy". If that moderator acted on that information, then I would understand. If it was me, I would swiftly switch to a new server. Ok another example, ok lets say you have deep sexual desires and wish to purchase a tandem whip, handcuffs, lubricant and toys. You decide to go to an on-line store. When you purchase them. The person who deals with your order will know your name, number, address and whatever you're interested in. Would you care though? You will never see that person, they will not come to your house. The order will most likely be logged too, and maybe reviewed. In both cases, you're not told your privacy is being "invaded".
If you pull out all the code for servers, so servers don't exist in Renegade, the private messaging system still does. I wouldn't say that reading private messages is up to the server owners, as the PM system is separate from a server. Also, reading personal information at a job is a lot different than on a game. The client expects you to keep that information confidential and secure, and legal action can be taken if its not. In a game, this is not the case, so reading private messages is a larger issue.
RoShamBo wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 23:47 deep sexual desires and wish to purchase a tandem whip, handcuffs, lubricant and toys. Did you really have to use what I did as a example!
DeadX07 wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 23:52 If you pull out all the code for servers, so servers don't exist in Renegade, the private messaging system still does. I wouldn't say that reading private messages is up to the server owners, as the PM system is separate from a server. Also, reading personal information at a job is a lot different than on a game. The client expects you to keep that information confidential and secure, and legal action can be taken if its not. In a game, this is not the case, so reading private messages is a larger issue. Did you not read (or completely forget) the part where he mentioned that moderators wouldn't care what you say to someone else in a PM, as long as it isn't harrassing?
DeadX07 wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 23:52 Also, reading personal information at a job is a lot different than on a game. The client expects you to keep that information confidential and secure, and legal action can be taken if its not. In a game, this is not the case, so reading private messages is a larger issue. Well not really, because a moderator is still expected to keep it secure. Or else they lose a player. Again, I cannot stress enough that you should not be giving out credit card details over a chat system in the first place!
RoShamBo wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 23:47 Moderators reading PMs is not much different to what I do in my job really, that is, preparing people's medical notes for when they come into hospital. To be able to prepare them, I sometimes have to read portions of it. They don't know I'm invading their privacy, but I am, that's my job. There is very sensitive information in them, and I know for a fact if they were my case notes I would not want anyone reading them. So ok, I have all their information, including name, address, telephone numbers. What do I do with that info? Absolutely nothing. The very same applies to renegade, moderators don't care at all about what information you give out in PM, they certainly wouldn't act on it. I don't see why someone, who is a complete stranger, knowing a small bit of insignificant information about you is "invading your privacy". If that moderator acted on that information, then I would understand. If it was me, I would swiftly switch to a new server. Ok another example, ok lets say you have deep sexual desires and wish to purchase a tandem whip, handcuffs, lubricant and toys. You decide to go to an on-line store. When you purchase them. The person who deals with your order will know your name, number, address and whatever you're interested in. Would you care though? You will never see that person, they will not come to your house. The order will most likely be logged too, and maybe reviewed. In both cases, you're not told your privacy is being "invaded". With your example for your job. It is REQUIRED for you to read it, if however it wasn't required and you was nosing around peoples addresses and phones numbers then yeah I would be pissed that some person is getting my details without me knowing. As to the moderator, you might be kind enough to disregard what you might read but others mods dont. How am I meant to know what server is logging my chat when we do not get told? That is the point. If I was to order kinky sex toys from the net I KNOW my details are going to be logged, its quite obvious since they need it for my goods to be delivered. If they then leaked my details to some other company i'd be pissed. Server owners have no reason whatsoever to evade people privacy.
Hex wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 23:56 RoShamBo wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 23:47 deep sexual desires and wish to purchase a tandem whip, handcuffs, lubricant and toys. Did you really have to use what I did as a example! heh I'm sure you have Hex that wouldn't suprise me one bit. Would you honestly care if everyone here knew that though?
Caveman wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 23:59 RoShamBo wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 23:47 Moderators reading PMs is not much different to what I do in my job really, that is, preparing people's medical notes for when they come into hospital. To be able to prepare them, I sometimes have to read portions of it. They don't know I'm invading their privacy, but I am, that's my job. There is very sensitive information in them, and I know for a fact if they were my case notes I would not want anyone reading them. So ok, I have all their information, including name, address, telephone numbers. What do I do with that info? Absolutely nothing. The very same applies to renegade, moderators don't care at all about what information you give out in PM, they certainly wouldn't act on it. I don't see why someone, who is a complete stranger, knowing a small bit of insignificant information about you is "invading your privacy". If that moderator acted on that information, then I would understand. If it was me, I would swiftly switch to a new server. Ok another example, ok lets say you have deep sexual desires and wish to purchase a tandem whip, handcuffs, lubricant and toys. You decide to go to an on-line store. When you purchase them. The person who deals with your order will know your name, number, address and whatever you're interested in. Would you care though? You will never see that person, they will not come to your house. The order will most likely be logged too, and maybe reviewed. In both cases, you're not told your privacy is being "invaded". With your example for your job. It is REQUIRED for you to read it, if however it wasn't required and you was nosing around peoples addresses and phones numbers then yeah I would be pissed that some person is getting my details without me knowing. As to the moderator, you might be kind enough to disregard what you might read but others mods dont. How am I meant to know what server is logging my chat when we do not get told? That is the point. If I was to order kinky sex toys from the net I KNOW my details are going to be logged, its quite obvious since they need it for my goods to be delivered. If they then leaked my details to some other company i'd be pissed. Server owners have no reason whatsoever to evade people privacy. Cos if you did say something private enough to someone on the internet, you'd know if it got leaked. Besides, when you tell anyone anything there is always a risk that it gets out. I've learnt, since being at college, that there isn't really such a thing as a secret....that or all my mates really can't be trusted.
RoShamBo wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 14:40 Caveman wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 20:01 insert_name_here wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 19:50 Caveman wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 19:47 Having the server log your serial hash and your IP address is not of any importance. What can you do with my hash and ip thats gonna worry me? I'd quite happily tell anyone my IP address and hash. However having it log potential sensitive info without me knowing is something entirely different. If I know the server is gonna read my PMs i'll make sure not to say something that I dont want anyone knowing. Its pretty logical, no? Have some common courtesy. You're using their server for free with them having to pay a bunch for it. You don't have the rights you might think you have. So with that logic you would agree that its ok for Microsoft to read our MSN conversations, the server owner on IRC to read your PMs, for parents to listen in on theres childs phone call.. etc... Just before you dont pay for it. If any of the above said that it would be logged/read you can bet your ass that I wouldn't use that service. I for one like my privacy. Sure, if microsoft wanted to listen in on my MSN conversations they can knock themselves out. I have nothing to hide. Same for IRC conversations. It only takes more resources on their side, and if they were doing it then I know it's only with good intentions. This is the same for renegade, if someone is getting harassed in PM then not only can we prove it but we can ban on the spot without the player having to report it. About the phone, if was even possible. If I wanted to talk to someone and keep it private from my parents, I would use either: another service, or another form of communication. As I said before, I generally have nothing to hide so I probably wouldn't care. Again, I repeat. You have no control what-so-ever over someone else's server. If you don't like it, go play somewhere else. You might not have anything to hide, but others have conversations they'd rather other people not read. Is it so wrong to ask that your private messages be kept private?
Caveman wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 23:59 With your example for your job. It is REQUIRED for you to read it, if however it wasn't required and you was nosing around peoples addresses and phones numbers then yeah I would be pissed that some person is getting my details without me knowing. I don't need to know any of their contact information, or even their name. Yet it's written all over the medical notes so it's quite hard to miss. Caveman wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 23:59 As to the moderator, you might be kind enough to disregard what you might read but others mods dont. How am I meant to know what server is logging my chat when we do not get told? That is the point. and my point is that you should trust no-one. and more so, you shouldn't care what the moderators see. If you put actual private info there then that's your own fault. It's quite possible for someone to be eves dropping on your browser as you visit these forums. Even then, you wouldn't post any -real- private information on these forums. So why care?
Ethenal wrote on Tue, 10 February 2009 00:06 You might not have anything to hide, but others have conversations they'd rather other people not read. Is it so wrong to ask that your private messages be kept private? Sure you can ask, if the server owner doesn't want to then he doesn't have to. You can always play elsewhere.
You lot might not have any trust in people but I certainly do. It doesn't have to be credit card details or anything really sensitive, the fact is its a PRIVATE message and therefore should be kept private, its like you're arguing with the definition. You keep saying play somewhere else.... WE CANT BECAUSE WE'RE NOT TOLD OUR CONVERSATIONS ARE BEING LOGGED. Jesus, ive said that like 5 times. All im asking is if you're going to have something in your server that tells the server owner/moderators that you're logging all chat including private messages that you tell them upon joining. At least then they have the option to speak about private matters and risk it being read. Why is that so hard to comprehend?
I agree with Caveman on this one. I have nothing against people's PM's being logged for the server, aslong they KNOW they're being logged.
Everybody seems to be forgetting one small little detail. This is the internet, it is not private. You should know this.
RoShamBo wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 18:09 Ethenal wrote on Tue, 10 February 2009 00:06 You might not have anything to hide, but others have conversations they'd rather other people not read. Is it so wrong to ask that your private messages be kept private? Sure you can ask, if the server owner doesn't want to then he doesn't have to. You can always play elsewhere. That's perfectly fine, there's nothing wrong with that. Except the server doesn't tell you that it's logging private messages.
Ethenal wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 19:20 Except the server doesn't tell you that it's logging private messages. wtf? What kind of server logs private messages? Players really should be notified of this...
nikki6ixx wrote on Tue, 10 February 2009 01:39 Ethenal wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 19:20 Except the server doesn't tell you that it's logging private messages. wtf? What kind of server logs private messages? Players really should be notified of this... Did you happen to stumble upon this topic? Roshambo made a plugin/mod that has the ability to log private messages.
Caveman wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 19:56 Did you happen to stumble upon this topic? Roshambo made a plugin/mod that has the ability to log private messages. Which makes no sense in my eyes. Why someone would spy on personal messages is beyond me. If the purpose is to curb hackers, and cheats, which is all I can see this being useful for, they will simply get wise to this, and use other channels for communication with each other like TeamSpeak, MSN Messenger, etc.
Caveman wrote on Tue, 10 February 2009 01:56 nikki6ixx wrote on Tue, 10 February 2009 01:39 Ethenal wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 19:20 Except the server doesn't tell you that it's logging private messages. wtf? What kind of server logs private messages? Players really should be notified of this... Did you happen to stumble upon this topic? Roshambo made a plugin/mod that has the ability to log private messages. Well, I'm not changing it. I don't know for sure, but it really wouldn't suprise me if n00bstories and other servers has already been doing this already for over a few years.
One thing is sure: if you announce that you log PM's, then the utility is gone.
RoShamBo wrote on Tue, 10 February 2009 00:00 Hex wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 23:56 RoShamBo wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 23:47 deep sexual desires and wish to purchase a tandem whip, handcuffs, lubricant and toys. Did you really have to use what I did as a example! heh I'm sure you have Hex that wouldn't suprise me one bit. Would you honestly care if everyone here knew that though? Fuck no, want to play with them? RoShamBo wrote on Tue, 10 February 2009 08:35 servers has already been doing this already for over a few years. Other server have been doing it for a long time, some view pms that are required ie mods PMs and some servers that view everyones pms. to anyone else, you don't like it, don't use the fucking plugin, it's simple as that You join someones server, you have no rights and they have every right to do what ever they wish to do. I would put good money on it that if someone here was being constantly abused in PM and no action was taking by the people in power that they would be upset/pissed off
Hex wrote on Tue, 10 February 2009 09:22 RoShamBo wrote on Tue, 10 February 2009 00:00 Hex wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 23:56 RoShamBo wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 23:47 deep sexual desires and wish to purchase a tandem whip, handcuffs, lubricant and toys. Did you really have to use what I did as a example! heh I'm sure you have Hex that wouldn't suprise me one bit. Would you honestly care if everyone here knew that though? Fuck no, want to play with them? RoShamBo wrote on Tue, 10 February 2009 08:35 servers has already been doing this already for over a few years. Other server have been doing it for a long time, some view pms that are required ie mods PMs and some servers that view everyones pms. to anyone else, you don't like it, don't use the fucking plugin, it's simple as that You join someones server, you have no rights and they have every right to do what ever they wish to do. I would put good money on it that if someone here was being constantly abused in PM and no action was taking by the people in power that they would be upset/pissed off Right I couldn't agree with you more it would be really handy for the people that get abused via pm. Thats all well and good but would it hurt so much to let people know when they join that all PMs get logged and read. Its not like i'm asking for much.
We've caught people admitting to cheating in PM. So yes, telling everyone that your PMs are being logged does hurt.
That's a pathetic excuse for evading someone's privacy, Do you REALLY need to rely on someone admitting to cheating to catch them? What's wrong with doing it the good ol fashioned way?
lol... I've had multiple people admit to me in PM they were cheating while i was under a different nickname. Its an awesome way to catch cheaters.
Caveman wrote on Tue, 10 February 2009 13:21 That's a pathetic excuse for evading someone's privacy, Do you REALLY need to rely on someone admitting to cheating to catch them? What's wrong with doing it the good ol fashioned way? Some cheats are very hard to detect and prove.
RoShamBo wrote on Tue, 10 February 2009 16:00 Caveman wrote on Tue, 10 February 2009 13:21 That's a pathetic excuse for evading someone's privacy, Do you REALLY need to rely on someone admitting to cheating to catch them? What's wrong with doing it the good ol fashioned way? Some cheats are very hard to detect and prove. Well if they're that hard to detect and prove what makes you think they're going to be stupid enough to announce that they're using it via PM. If they're smart enough not to be blatant with it then surely they're smart enough not keep there mouth shut
I think this argument is retarded: you're all missing the real issue here. What kind of fucking name is RenGooey?
u6795 wrote on Tue, 10 February 2009 19:33 I think this argument is retarded: you're all missing the real issue here. What kind of fucking name is RenGooey? A word play on RenGUI (which is pronounced Ren Gooey, actually )
nite-serv log private message im sure. I remember once playing on there some guy spectate killed me right in front of of shinigami who is an admin there i believe. He refused to do anything about it because I called him a faggot in my PM! to another player. Oh and I think he banned me from there too. In all honesty, tell people your logging their PM's and im positive your server population will dwindle to only yourself.
grant89uk wrote on Tue, 10 February 2009 21:32 I remember once playing on there some guy spectate killed me right in front of of shinigami who is an admin there i believe. He owns it, and they do log PMs.. right in the admin channel.
I don't see why I'm even arguing here, I'm just a simple player like almost everyone else. I don't own a server and never will. So it's just as out of my hands as it is anyone elses. SO no matter how much you argue and get your point across to me, server owners wont change their minds. Also, people dumb enough to use cheats are often dumb enough to admit it.
RoShamBo wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 15:00 Don't take your private business to renegade, then. I can think of quite a few times when I've told or been told a clan join password (when they actually worked) or a botname password on a renegade PM. It's not credit card details, but it's quite easily abusable. If people have always been under the impression that PMs are indeed private unless one of the two participants decides to show someone a SS of it, then it's probably wrong to change that without informing people. andr3w's example of "such-and-such really was dumb enough to admit to cheating to me by PM" isn't relevant... he admitted it to you, you were the person he sent the PM to, you were always able to read his admission.
I can think of a few servers that actually log PMs. I can think of two off the top of my head that can toggle between logging private messages for specific players if abuse is suspected. The fact is that you *CAN* read them, doesn't mean they're being read all the time. Like I stated above, I made a console command to simply toggle whether a user's private messages are logged. Console: "logpm <player id>" Another server, who has a custom bot built into the FDS, has a command to watch a player's PMs if abuse is suspected... Also, like RoShamBo said, it's up to the server owner to decide whether that server logs private messages. Arguing here does nothing. You want people to not read your private messages? Either: A) Don't send any private messages B) Don't play on servers that do log PM's; or: C) Go to each server's forums and argue there about it. Also, I rarely send private messages over Renegade..
zunnie wrote on Sun, 08 February 2009 15:45 Private Messages should be -well- private... I completely agree with this, and have argued against any invasion of that privacy time and time again, and yet server owners still insist on doing it. I have given up arguing about it these days, and now simply use Xfire to communicate with other people in the same server, since they have not come up with a way to spy on that yet. Not that I have played Renegade in a while now mind you....
danpaul88 wrote on Thu, 12 February 2009 17:35 ...simply use Xfire to communicate with other people in the same server, since they have not come up with a way to spy on that yet. .... And this is why this intrusion into people's PM's is simply not worth it. The only sensible reason for reading PM's is to see if anyone is hacking, or causing mischief. But hackers, and mischief makers will likely use Xfire or MSN Messenger, etc to communicate if they're smart enough. Of course, that essentially leaves PM monitoring to be only good for spying in on people's conversations, and seeing if they're bad-moutining moderators, or other players. That's just plain petty.
nikki6ixx wrote on Fri, 13 February 2009 00:40 And this is why this intrusion into people's PM's is simply not worth it. The only sensible reason for reading PM's is to see if anyone is hacking, or causing mischief. But hackers, and mischief makers will likely use Xfire or MSN Messenger, etc to communicate if they're smart enough. Of course, that essentially leaves PM monitoring to be only good for spying in on people's conversations, and seeing if they're bad-moutining moderators, or other players. That's just plain petty. That's only because they now know about it. It worked perfectly fine when most people didn't think it was possible. Oh and I'm against it, btw.
I guess it depends on how you go about it We have a system in place where PM's in the server is checked against a 'list' by the bot (coded in to scripts.dll) and flags these words to IRC for mods to see, this list of words are such that they are not what would normaly be used by everyone IE 'ni.gger, jew, faggot' I see no harm in the way that we do this, infact all my mods AND any player that knows about the system support the idea. Hex
regardless if a person owns a server or not, the fact that it is called a private message is enough. for some reason the words big brother come to mind. anyone here read 1984? its been a few years so i am fuzzy on the details. but the fact remains that if you log a person's private conversation, you can access the information that was sent between the two or more individuals when ever you like. might as well just use public chat and save the owner's/moderators the trouble of logging...
Maybe should have it where the private message are saved, and hopefully only a trust worthy person will only look after them IF NEEDED ONLY? idk
SSnipe wrote on Wed, 22 July 2009 18:38 Maybe should have it where the private message are saved, and hopefully only a trust worthy person will only look after them IF NEEDED ONLY? idk Since it only shows on the FDS console you'd have to be pretty trustworthy to have that access.
jnz wrote on Wed, 22 July 2009 11:54 SSnipe wrote on Wed, 22 July 2009 18:38 Maybe should have it where the private message are saved, and hopefully only a trust worthy person will only look after them IF NEEDED ONLY? idk Since it only shows on the FDS console you'd have to be pretty trustworthy to have that access. Thats true aswell
For the record, n00bstories has never and will never log, spy on, or read private messages in our server. Period. If we ever did change our minds on that, it would be disclosed to you when you connected to the server. We also agree that if you do not like your private conversations read, you should play on another server. We are easy to find.
Personally i never use the private message system. Although i think i may have voiced my opinions already on this subject (probably somewhere earlier in this thread). I'll find it a sad day when someone chooses a server based on whether it is known they record their private messages or not.
mrãçķz wrote on Mon, 09 February 2009 16:25 Drama
futura83 wrote on Thu, 23 July 2009 08:41 I'll find it a sad day when someone chooses a server based on whether it is known they record their private messages or not. This ^.
When I started Renegade I thought it was the norm that PM's could be read via IRC. The first server i moderated for could read pm's and it's great for catching cheaters slip up and things like this. I think it should be considered that "private" in private messages, doesn't mean: Nobody but you and the recipient can read this. It means, nobody else ingame but you and the recipient can read this. If you send information what you consider private over a message system in a game, then your priorities are messed up. Make a phone call, send a text, get off the game and see them.
I'm gonna have to concede that i do use the private message system, actually, but only when a team-mate needs a bit of information that only they need to know....so it's not really private, it's just to co-ordinate better when doing a bit of a stealth rush with just 1 other.
It makes no difference if the message being sent contains private information or not. The fact of the matter is that it's called a private message. If someone else, other than the person you are sending it to, is able to read the message, regardless of what it says, it is no longer private. Who are you tell someone what they can and can't say in a private message? If someone wants to talk to a personal friend, who also happens to be in game, about a private matter and share information they don't want others to see, then they have all the right to do that. It's a freaking game! Get over it. A private message should not be allowed to be read, without permission, by anyone other than the sender and the receiver. I don't care if you're trying to catch a cheater, trying to nail an exploiter, or simply have a thing for spying on people. A private message is private unless it's made otherwise by either the sender or the receiver. Period. No ifs ands or buts about it.
R315r4z0r wrote on Fri, 24 July 2009 02:50 It makes no difference if the message being sent contains private information or not. The fact of the matter is that it's called a private message. If someone else, other than the person you are sending it to, is able to read the message, regardless of what it says, it is no longer private. Who are you tell someone what they can and can't say in a private message? If someone wants to talk to a personal friend, who also happens to be in game, about a private matter and share information they don't want others to see, then they have all the right to do that. It's a freaking game! Get over it. A private message should not be allowed to be read, without permission, by anyone other than the sender and the receiver. I don't care if you're trying to catch a cheater, trying to nail an exploiter, or simply have a thing for spying on people. A private message is private unless it's made otherwise by either the sender or the receiver. Period. No ifs ands or buts about it. I see both sides of this tbh. I see what you mean, about how people should be able to send private messages to a friend, and have them private, but then, how private can a message be? I mean, it's not like you're going to give out information about where you live, or contact details etc, the most private thing you might give out (or well, the most private thing you'll say if you're smart) will not mean anything to anyone that could potentially read it. Be honest now, how many of you actually use the private messaging system regularly, for more than just co-ordination or something else game related? About the whole 'we can use it to stop cheaters' argument: I say that's invalid too. I mean, you aren't going to find a cheater that will just randomly message someone they've killed saying they're cheating and that's how they've killed them, most of the time it is likely the defeated got pissed and accused the killer of cheating, and, depending on the mood of the killer, they could decide to humour them and just say 'yeah i'm well hacking' to piss them off or something. But still, isn't there much better ways at catching cheaters than through monitoring private messages? Those that don't like the thought of their PMs being monitored: If you found out your favourite server monitored your PMs, would you leave it in favour of one that doesn't do it, or is not yet known to do it? Like i said though, i understand why you get annoyed at PMs being monitored, but like you said, it's a game, and quite frankly, if members of my team stopped helping out just to have a conversation with a friend then i'd be getting a little pissy, after all, if you're in game, you're there to play not socialise, if you are so desperate for a catch up with a friend or just a chat, go on IRC or msn or something. Also, there's nothing you can do really about PMs being monitored but moan and hope someone cares to listen, unfortunately.
I don't have a problem with a server reading private messages. I have a problem with a server reading private messages and NOT TELLING YOU ABOUT IT. You should be able to make an informed decision about where you decide to play.
I would like to play on a server with no cheaters, but they don't tell me that they are cheating so I can't make a good choice either. Life isn't fair is it
That being said, I think TK2 is about the only server that auto announces that we keep track of player's nicknames and ip's to counter cheating (via ipbot).
Goztow wrote on Fri, 24 July 2009 05:16 That being said, I think TK2 is about the only server that auto announces that we keep track of player's nicknames and ip's to counter cheating (via ipbot). I guess all servers should start announcing that, right after they start announcing that MVP is awarded to the top player and that the objective is to destroy the enemy base. Sarcasm aside, aren't somethings just too obvious to announce?
It matters not if you're actually sharing personal information. It might be an extremely rare occurrence that someone does something like that. But it doesn't change the fact that the idea of a private message is to be private. Whether someone is saying "Oh, this is where I live: _____" or "LOL U JUST GOT OWNED!" the message should be private unless the sender or the receiver shares it or gives permission to read it. The issue of the message actually being a private matter has no merit in the argument what-so-ever. Also, like suggested above, reading PMs is hardly giving you an advantage in fighting cheating or rule breaking. 90% of the time a cheater wont even use the pm system to explicitly say they are cheating. And the other 10% that do are also stupid enough to be able to be caught regardless of if they confessed in a PM. How is it "sad" that someone doesn't want to join a server were their PMs can be readily available for people to read? It's "sad" if someone wants a private message to be private? It's "sad" that people don't want to join a server that doesn't meet the requirements they are looking for? So... it's "sad" if I don't join a server simply because they run a lot of crazy modifications like portable obelisks, unit swaps and price mods? This has to be the most ridiculous debate.
R315r4z0r wrote on Fri, 24 July 2009 22:19 This has to be the most ridiculous debate. It certainly is, since you actually don't automatically have "rights" on a renegade server. I may not give permission for my IP address and my serial to be shared. It still is, and there is nothing that I or anyone can do about that. You can actually pinpoint my hometown and country just from me joining a server, did I give them permission to do that? Not at all, but if they wanted they would do so anyway. Like I said: No rights, and you don't deserve any either. This is a virtual world, not the real world.
R315r4z0r wrote on Fri, 24 July 2009 14:19 This has to be the most ridiculous debate. This topic is only mildly shitty by Heated Discussion standards. It sees garbage like "Is Obama's Muslimness Bad?" every other thread. It's to be expected. jnz wrote on Fri, 24 July 2009 15:31 R315r4z0r wrote on Fri, 24 July 2009 22:19 This has to be the most ridiculous debate. It certainly is, since you actually don't automatically have "rights" on a renegade server. I may not give permission for my IP address and my serial to be shared. It still is, and there is nothing that I or anyone can do about that. You can actually pinpoint my hometown and country just from me joining a server, did I give them permission to do that? Not at all, but if they wanted they would do so anyway. Like I said: No rights, and you don't deserve any either. This is a virtual world, not the real world. And it's not just Renegade. Even in games without dedicated servers (I can personally speak for StarCraft) you can pinpoint someone's house with simple and freely-available tools. People who expect to recieve any privacy online need to L2Internet.
You're not understanding my point. People automatically agree to share their IP once they decide connect to the internet, regardless if its a game or not. But the fact of the matter of what I'm getting at is that it's called a private message. What kind of private message isn't private? Also, I didn't mean "rights" as in what you can and can't do in the game but rather what you can and shouldn't do as a person. You're taking the game a little too seriously when you start monitoring people's private conversations. I would personally much rather play on a server with cheaters than on a server that moderates private messages. Fighting cheaters can be enjoyable. Knowing someone is reading something I don't want them to isn't. @ Dover: I wouldn't consider "pinpointing someone's house" as vital private info. People give their home addresses out over the internet everyday..
R315r4z0r wrote on Fri, 24 July 2009 22:50 I would personally much rather play on a server with cheaters than on a server that moderates private messages. Fighting cheaters can be enjoyable. Knowing someone is reading something I don't want them to isn't. I personally found this funny to read, that someone would actually think like that. There are many other ways to talk to someone in private, just because you can't in some renegade servers, you would rather play with cheaters? Well, i too see both sides of it too, but i favor the let admins and owners read pm's only. Some people honestly do not know how to take a screen shot, and if some1 was pm spamming them, they're only way to tell someone about it would be in f2 chat. In that case, the admins and owners can read the pm's to verify this, and settle it. In any other case, i do not see why reading pm's would be needed at all by any mods, admins, or owners. As many have said though, it would be nice to know which servers you do have your privacy on, and which you don't. I know that at TMX, any mod (Half and up, not temps) can read anyones pm's at anytime in the admin channel, i find this to be unfair to the players. It is a security issue, but peoples privacy is more important than modding a game, in my opinion. I also feel that you guys are making this into a WAY bigger deal than it is, maybe for attention, maybe to get a point across, maybe for a +1 post, idk. But seriously, are you going to be telling someone something THAT private in a Renegade server anyway? If so, then i understand why you would be mad, but i also wonder why you would use a game to communicate privately. I don't know, that's just my point of view, as a long time Renagade player and mod .
R315r4z0r wrote on Sat, 25 July 2009 04:50 People automatically agree to share their IP once they decide connect to the internet, regardless if its a game or not. ...but I never gave them permission to use my serial, or find my hometown and country. R315r4z0r wrote on Sat, 25 July 2009 04:50 Also, I didn't mean "rights" as in what you can and can't do in the game but rather what you can and shouldn't do as a person. You're taking the game a little too seriously when you start monitoring people's private conversations. I could say that you're taking the game to seriously because the server owner wants to see private messages, which they have every right to do. Like I also said, the players have no right for it to be hidden either. R315r4z0r wrote on Sat, 25 July 2009 04:50 I would personally much rather play on a server with cheaters than on a server that moderates private messages. Fighting cheaters can be enjoyable. Knowing someone is reading something I don't want them to isn't. Tough luck if they don't tell you. Which again, you have no right to see that infomation and the server owner reserves the right not to give it to you. R315r4z0r wrote on Sat, 25 July 2009 04:50 I wouldn't consider "pinpointing someone's house" as vital private info. People give their home addresses out over the internet everyday.. I would only give out my home address if a website -needed- it. If I am buying something for example, and there are very strict laws governing these websites not to give it out.
R315r4z0r wrote on Sat, 25 July 2009 05:50 You're not understanding my point. People automatically agree to share their IP once they decide connect to the internet, regardless if its a game or not. Yes, they do, they do not agree automatically for that information to be stored in a central place and for it to be shared between server owners.
R315r4z0r wrote on Fri, 24 July 2009 20:50 @ Dover: I wouldn't consider "pinpointing someone's house" as vital private info. People give their home addresses out over the internet everyday.. Yet it seems to distress people when I say something like "What's it like up there in Vancouver?" in the middle of a StarCraft game when they haven't told me any information about themselves. Goztow wrote on Sat, 25 July 2009 04:47 Yes, they do, they do not agree automatically for that information to be stored in a central place and for it to be shared between server owners. Does agreement even come into the picture? Your information is being logged and probably shared, whether or not you agree to it. That's just the way the system works. Nobody was ever told otherwise.