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when will this be released
b00tz92 wrote on Tue, 20 January 2009 11:35 when will this be released It will hopefully not be released because it's an obvious cheat. /me waits for 50 replies saying the contrary
Goztow wrote on Tue, 20 January 2009 10:50 It will hopefully not be released because it's an obvious cheat. Seconded.
I too do not wish to see it released.
jonwil wrote on Tue, 20 January 2009 05:25 I too do not wish to see it released.
Quote: when will this be released Never as long as lots of players consider it as cheat.
DeathLink6.0 wrote on Tue, 20 January 2009 05:40 Quote: when will this be released Never as long as lots of players consider it as cheat. And I hope it stays like that.
Settled then its a cheat. Lets lock the topic and move on
sure it would be nice to have such a thing but it's a cheat so stick with the old K
DeathLink6.0 wrote on Tue, 20 January 2009 05:40 Quote: when will this be released Never as long as lots of players consider it as cheat. yup exactly. I have my code in a class and can easily be released, just need to add one line to three different spots in shaderhud .cpp and shaders.cpp -- Exactly the same idea as saberhawks health notice code. However due to the issue of many people thinking it is a cheat I wont be releasing it anytime soon.
andr3w282 wrote on Tue, 20 January 2009 15:13 DeathLink6.0 wrote on Tue, 20 January 2009 05:40 Quote: when will this be released Never as long as lots of players consider it as cheat. yup exactly. I have my code in a class and can easily be released, just need to add one line to three different spots in shaderhud .cpp and shaders.cpp -- Exactly the same idea as saberhawks health notice code. However due to the issue of many people thinking it is a cheat I wont be releasing it anytime soon. using it is a cheat too you know..
"TT, will you please remove the K key, its a cheat""
The K key is not a cheat, removing the necessity to PRESS the K key in the first place IS a cheat, as it gives you an advantage over players without that functionality. If you disagree, try driving your car at a steady 70mph down a motorway with a screen that becomes opaque (non-see-through for those of you who don't recognise that word) for 10 seconds every minute. I doubt you would manage that without crashing into something.
I don't have a 'K' button on my keyboard
ErroR wrote on Tue, 20 January 2009 07:14 andr3w282 wrote on Tue, 20 January 2009 15:13 DeathLink6.0 wrote on Tue, 20 January 2009 05:40 Quote: when will this be released Never as long as lots of players consider it as cheat. yup exactly. I have my code in a class and can easily be released, just need to add one line to three different spots in shaderhud .cpp and shaders.cpp -- Exactly the same idea as saberhawks health notice code. However due to the issue of many people thinking it is a cheat I wont be releasing it anytime soon. using it is a cheat too you know.. theres no global statement that it is a cheat. And to my knowledge, most servers have not officially confirmed it as being a cheat. And , ontop of it all, n00bstories has yet to officially confirm it is a cheat, which is the only server i play on. A lot of people think it is a cheat, and a lot others don't. **edit*** To further my point on the mixed opinions: http://www.renegadeforums.com/index.php?t=msg&th=31482&prevloaded=1& rid=21670&start=0#msg_366174
andr3w282 wrote on Tue, 20 January 2009 10:14 And to my knowledge, most servers have not officially confirmed it as being a cheat. And , ontop of it all, n00bstories has yet to officially confirm it is a cheat, which is the only server i play on. A lot of people think it is a cheat, and a lot others don't. **edit*** To further my point on the mixed opinions: http://www.renegadeforums.com/index.php?t=msg&th=31482&prevloaded=1& rid=21670&start=0#msg_366174 Agreed. It's already available so it's not a cheat >.> It just saves one key-stroke. Only downside is it can clutter your display minimizing your view of the battlefield. Although...if you could make it so when you press 'K', it shows it on the HUD rather than displaying a whole new screen...that'd be a nice feature. (and compromise imho)
Zack wrote on Tue, 20 January 2009 11:49 andr3w282 wrote on Tue, 20 January 2009 10:14 And to my knowledge, most servers have not officially confirmed it as being a cheat. And , ontop of it all, n00bstories has yet to officially confirm it is a cheat, which is the only server i play on. A lot of people think it is a cheat, and a lot others don't. **edit*** To further my point on the mixed opinions: http://www.renegadeforums.com/index.php?t=msg&th=31482&prevloaded=1& rid=21670&start=0#msg_366174 I haven't been able to figure out keyhooks client side through shaders.dll so that can't be done yet Also thats starting to push into the "toggle" kind of things which would support the argument of it being a cheat Agreed. It's already available so it's not a cheat >.> It just saves one key-stroke. Only downside is it can clutter your display minimizing your view of the battlefield. Although...if you could make it so when you press 'K', it shows it on the HUD rather than displaying a whole new screen...that'd be a nice feature. (and compromise imho) I haven't been able to figure out keyhook client side through shaders.dll yet... not sure if it is possible. But even still, a "toggle" would be helpful to those making the argument that it is a cheat
Zack wrote on Tue, 20 January 2009 18:49 andr3w282 wrote on Tue, 20 January 2009 10:14 And to my knowledge, most servers have not officially confirmed it as being a cheat. And , ontop of it all, n00bstories has yet to officially confirm it is a cheat, which is the only server i play on. A lot of people think it is a cheat, and a lot others don't. **edit*** To further my point on the mixed opinions: http://www.renegadeforums.com/index.php?t=msg&th=31482&prevloaded=1& rid=21670&start=0#msg_366174 Agreed. It's already available so it's not a cheat >.> It just saves one key-stroke. Only downside is it can clutter your display minimizing your view of the battlefield. Although...if you could make it so when you press 'K', it shows it on the HUD rather than displaying a whole new screen...that'd be a nice feature. (and compromise imho) I like that idea, it's so annoying when you're pressing 'K' on the battlefield and you get that short interval when it's popping up.
It's also possible to make it with the toggle, similar to pressing "k" so all you see is a black background or something similar with the building health meters. This in my opinion would be acceptable by almost all peoples standards. But the thing is, I doubt anyone would want it then. The reason they want it is because it's an advantage, implementing it in the manor suggested with a key press toggle would remove that advantage and become less appealing to people. Even if this version was to be released, it doesn't really matter because the person releasing it would also need to release the source code under the license agreement. That means it could be editted very very simply to not have to press the keyboard, and remove the black. There's no way with a clear conscience a programmer could release it. That isn't to say no one will, but it'll come from one of the "shadier" guys (pardon the excellent pun).
reborn wrote on Tue, 20 January 2009 13:24 There's no way with a clear conscience a programmer could release it. That isn't to say no one will, but it'll come from one of the "shadier" guys (pardon the excellent pun). Yup , its also not just the idea of the building bars themselves, but that it shows a few techniques that could expand much further then just building health.
You can display much more with the scripts.dll, so dont release the gay hud, you can make to many advantages with it
The idea is was born, pushed up and lots of people want it. It is just matter of time in my opinion until somebody releases it somewhere but I will not be the one, so stop asking me or cAmpa.
It definitely should not be considered a cheat because you aren't gaining any sort of advantage. However, I agree that it shouldn't be released.
If they dont like Renegade how it is then G T F O! Thats why TT wont make any Gameplay changes.
You should stop making Weapon replacments, if u dont like Renegade how it is then G T F O! ^^
I dont even use them, just needed some Downloads for my Homepage lol, and for my Mod (a small Addition )
Goztow wrote on Tue, 20 January 2009 05:50 It will hopefully not be released because it's an obvious cheat. Considering that when you type in Renegade you can't control your character at all would make using Ventrilo/TeamSpeak provide a much greater advantage to players then this HUD modification. No I don't want to see this released, as I like to be sneaky and this makes that harder. I just believe the logic being used to declare this a cheat is flawed. Unless of course you also consider VoIP software a cheat.
pvtschlag wrote on Wed, 21 January 2009 18:04 Considering that when you type in Renegade you can't control your character at all would make using Ventrilo/TeamSpeak provide a much greater advantage to players then this HUD modification. That's actually a really good point. Interesting idea.
It's tempting to just release majority of the class code just to get some reactions from people
andr3w282 wrote on Wed, 21 January 2009 18:22 It's tempting to just release majority of the class code just to get some reactions from people Do it, Stir some shit up
RMCool13 wrote on Wed, 21 January 2009 18:22 andr3w282 wrote on Wed, 21 January 2009 18:22 It's tempting to just release majority of the class code just to get some reactions from people Do it, Stir some shit up I agree! reborn wrote on Wed, 21 January 2009 17:06 pvtschlag wrote on Wed, 21 January 2009 18:04 Considering that when you type in Renegade you can't control your character at all would make using Ventrilo/TeamSpeak provide a much greater advantage to players then this HUD modification. That's actually a really good point. Interesting idea. Seconded, lol. Very good point. I'd like to see you ban people from using VoIP software the same way you would for a custom HUD and/or cheats. <.< EDIT: a lols joke about RenGuard. RenGuard has detected 'teamspeak.exe' running in the background. Please close this process and continue starting RenGuard normally
I never thought about it with regards to the teamspeak comparison before. However, it still shouldn't be released because it could be made even more exploitive... Imagine hacking teamspeak so you could hear all peoples chat no matter what channel they was in. A similar principle could be applied if something like this was released. Which is annoying because I would of like to at least considered it an option for cnc_reborn. But I don't want that mod to be the reason why a bunch more cheats where spawned. The only way I would be happy to see it released is if it was closed source, and you had to press a button for it to pop up, and even then it had a black screen behind it to stop you seeing what was happening in game. But that isn't going to happen.
It's not because one cheat is freely available that you should release other cheats. Of course teamspeak gives an advantage over people that don't use it. However, in public games it's of way less matter because you won't ever have more than a very small percentage of the players on TS. So you can yell "incoming flame tank" and only 1 % of your team will hear it, so you'll need to type it out anyway. If you had one team with TS vs one team without TS, then there wouldn't even be a fair match possible, IMO. So I agree that using voip is also an unfair advantage but I don't agree that because you allow it that you need to allow other things as well.
reborn wrote on Thu, 22 January 2009 04:41 I never thought about it with regards to the teamspeak comparison before. However, it still shouldn't be released because it could be made even more exploitive... Thats exactly the case. If i were to release my code it would take extremely minimal effort to modify it to display other things rather then buildings and health ( vehicles and/or units anyone ? )... This is what is delaying me from doing anything with it. With that technically I can't release the shaders.dll without the source due to the agreement. So the whole idea of it being released is at a halt
andr3w282 wrote on Thu, 22 January 2009 07:45 reborn wrote on Thu, 22 January 2009 04:41 I never thought about it with regards to the teamspeak comparison before. However, it still shouldn't be released because it could be made even more exploitive... Thats exactly the case. If i were to release my code it would take extremely minimal effort to modify it to display other things rather then buildings and health ( vehicles and/or units anyone ? )... This is what is delaying me from doing anything with it. With that technically I can't release the shaders.dll without the source due to the agreement. So the whole idea of it being released is at a halt Slip it to me on the down low homie.
Goztow wrote on Thu, 22 January 2009 06:58 So I agree that using voip is also an unfair advantage but I don't agree that because you allow it that you need to allow other things as well. Then what determines what to allow and what to call a cheat? I would think a cheat would be determined by how great the advantage is. Since this HUD mod gives less of an advantage then players using VoIP software, then it is only logical that this HUD modification not be considered a cheat either.
pvtschlag wrote on Thu, 22 January 2009 19:28 Goztow wrote on Thu, 22 January 2009 06:58 So I agree that using voip is also an unfair advantage but I don't agree that because you allow it that you need to allow other things as well. Then what determines what to allow and what to call a cheat? I would think a cheat would be determined by how great the advantage is. Since this HUD mod gives less of an advantage then players using VoIP software, then it is only logical that this HUD modification not be considered a cheat either. Consider the smallest of cheats: radar hack. It's nothing but a few dots in another color on the HUD. Still, people dislike it even more than final renegade, because it's so hard to catch...
reborn wrote on Thu, 22 January 2009 03:41 The only way I would be happy to see it released is if it was closed source, and you had to press a button for it to pop up, and even then it had a black screen behind it to stop you seeing what was happening in game. But that isn't going to happen. Then there would no point in having it on the HUD if you're going to black out the screen. :/ it'd be an uglier version of the existing "K"-key popup. :/
Proving the point that people want it because it is an advantage.
Goztow wrote on Thu, 22 January 2009 06:58 It's not because one cheat is freely available that you should release other cheats. Of course teamspeak gives an advantage over people that don't use it. However, in public games it's of way less matter because you won't ever have more than a very small percentage of the players on TS. So you can yell "incoming flame tank" and only 1 % of your team will hear it, so you'll need to type it out anyway. You can say the same thing about the HUD. And to even more of an extreme extent. Not everyone will be running the HUD. And given the fact that you gain no advantage when using it, to players not running the HUD, they will have absolutely no idea that they are apparently being "cheated." Not in obvious means and not in statistical means (Scores, K/D, or a team's victory are all things that this HUD cannot possibly effect). So if you don't gain any advantage by using it, why is it a cheat? Why isn't VoIP a cheat? Using TeamSpeak should be considered a cheat. I don't mind other people using it against me, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered a cheat. And as a cheat, it is exponentially worse than simply having building health bars on your HUD. Why? Because it allows you to cut out your vulnerability while chatting when you use TeamSpeak. However, you gain no advantage by glaring at a building health bar on the side of the screen. You still have the same amount of vulnerability glaring at the side of the screen as when you press the K button for a half a second. Not to mention that you can check building's health also by pressing a button on your keyboard where as with VoIP, only people that have it can use it. Meaning people running teamspeak are using a 3rd party program that gives them the ability to do something no one else can. You don't gain an notable advantage with the HUD, but you gain a excessive advantage with VoIP. However, you want to allow the obvious cheat but ban artistic expression? Goztow wrote on Thu, 22 January 2009 13:54 Consider the smallest of cheats: radar hack. It's nothing but a few dots in another color on the HUD. Still, people dislike it even more than final renegade, because it's so hard to catch... But turning the radar on when it is set to not be on is a cheat. Regardless of how big the difference is in the HUD, it is a serious cheat. But the difference is, you obviously gain an advantage over other people and that can, in turn, affect your statistics (such as score and K/D ratio), when using this cheat. Using this HUD gives you absolutely no advantage at all. reborn wrote on Thu, 22 January 2009 13:59 Proving the point that people want it because it is an advantage. All it proves is that people don't want their game made ugly...
I think you didn't understand that I actually do claim that TS2 can be seen as a cheat. However, it's an advantage in teamwork only, whereas the building health bars give an individual advantage. So there's the real difference: you get an advantage over the rest of the players, whereas TS gives your team an advantage over the other team. However, we'll never agree on this. Because you said: Quote: Using this HUD gives you absolutely no advantage at all. because you claim that having a glance at the side of your screen is as much handicapping as pressing the 'k' button every 4 seconds. It's your right to think that, I simply cannot agree with that... About ugliness: some people make their skins bright pink or green as advantage, which proofs those couldn't care less for ugliness, really..
So I can make a cheat that simply helps teamwork and then it wont be considered a cheat? I'll get right on that...
Goztow wrote on Tue, 20 January 2009 04:50 b00tz92 wrote on Tue, 20 January 2009 11:35 when will this be released It will hopefully not be released because it's an obvious cheat. /me waits for 50 replies saying the contrary here's my reply.. no it's not a cheat.. all u have to do is press k or j or something to see building health.. no offense but that's stupid of you to say tbh..
*cough* http://andr3w282.bitpwns.com/hud_hide.wmv Trying to expand on my c++
andr3w282 wrote on Thu, 22 January 2009 18:53 *cough* http://andr3w282.bitpwns.com/hud_hide.wmv Trying to expand on my c++ You do realize that with Scripts 3 or beyond (I dunno the number specifically) you can do that ingame normally?
Goztow wrote on Thu, 22 January 2009 16:28 However, it's an advantage in teamwork only... Not true. Though that is an advantage I had not even thought that VoIP gave you, it's a minor one. The major one is that it cuts your chatting vulnerability out of the game. With VoIP you can give commands to your team mates or just chat it up while toe-to-toe with an enemy sniper rifle in your face, whereas if you don't have VoIP, you have to wait until it's safe to chat or else you will be standing still, vulnerable, while you type what you want to say. Not only that, but it also eliminates the problem with incomprehensible text riddled with spelling errors and typos. It's also much quicker to say what you want rather than stopping to type what you want. Those are big, game breaking advantages that lead you and your team on the road to an unfair victory. And for that matter, what do you mean an advantage in teamwork only? This is a team based game. If you alone are running a cheat, your entire team gains the benefits because your score and K/D is added into the total team's score and K/D. Goztow wrote on Thu, 22 January 2009 16:28 ...whereas the building health bars give an individual advantage. So there's the real difference: you get an advantage over the rest of the players, whereas TS gives your team an advantage over the other team. However, we'll never agree on this. Because you said: Quote: Using this HUD gives you absolutely no advantage at all. because you claim that having a glance at the side of your screen is as much handicapping as pressing the 'k' button every 4 seconds. It's your right to think that, I simply cannot agree with that... You missunderstand my point. I never said I thought that pressing K was a handicap nor did I ever say glancing over the screen was/wasn't easier/harder. All I said is that you gain no advantage. Thus meaning: Pressing K in battle leaves you with no negative drawbacks unless you are stupid and hold the button down for 5 seconds with a mammoth tank 2 meters in front of you. Glancing to check the side of the screen and pressing K to check the buildings might be of two different difficulties, but the end result is exactly the same and you gain no advantage either way. What difference does it make pressing a button to check the buildings or looking at the side of the screen to check the buildings? The only difference is the way you do it, you still get the same information in the same amount of time with the same amount of risk. Therefore it provides no advantage one way or the other. Goztow wrote on Thu, 22 January 2009 16:28 About ugliness: some people make their skins bright pink or green as advantage, which proofs those couldn't care less for ugliness, really.. To be honest, this is all up to personal opinion. Some people might like the look of said skins. Obviously, you don't. I don't either, but there are people out there that may, so you don't have the right to force an opinion on them. But in any case, you can't use that as a way to prove something entirely unrelated. I like this HUD for one reason: It looks nice and has a nice constant design. That's the only reason I keep it, despite it's flaws (like about how hard it is to realize how fast you reach near-death). Despite that obvious disadvantage, I keep the HUD for the single reason because I like the way it looks. Also, giving myself a disadvantage makes the game more fun for me. u6795 wrote on Thu, 22 January 2009 20:15 You do realize that with Scripts 3 or beyond (I dunno the number specifically) you can do that ingame normally? This is true, however in his video you can clearly see his reticle is still visible. With the HUD0/1 command, it removes everything from the screen, including scores, text, and your reticle.
R315r4z0r wrote on Thu, 22 January 2009 21:02 u6795 wrote on Thu, 22 January 2009 20:15 You do realize that with Scripts 3 or beyond (I dunno the number specifically) you can do that ingame normally? This is true, however in his video you can clearly see his reticle is still visible. With the HUD0/1 command, it removes everything from the screen, including scores, text, and your reticle. Exactly. Not to mention the building health bars are on a seperate toggle
pvtschlag wrote on Thu, 22 January 2009 22:42 So I can make a cheat that simply helps teamwork and then it wont be considered a cheat? I'll get right on that... "Goztow" I think you didn't understand that I actually do claim that TS2 can be seen as a cheat.
Considering something a cheat and saying something can be seen as a cheat aren't the same. How do you decide what cheats to allow?
pvtschlag wrote on Fri, 23 January 2009 15:05 Considering something a cheat and saying something can be seen as a cheat aren't the same. How do you decide what cheats to allow? Especially if the cheat you are allowing is exponentially worse than the "cheat" you aren't allowing.
Because I can't come up with my own argument. I piggyback off the defense side of the HUD I just don't consider it a cheat when you actually have access to all that information anyway....(woo, probably beating a dead horse, but meh - been said over and over)
pvtschlag wrote on Fri, 23 January 2009 21:05 Considering something a cheat and saying something can be seen as a cheat aren't the same. How do you decide what cheats to allow? I suppose that's up to every server owner. Why do some server owners allow bright skins and others don't? I suppose tracability plays a big part. It's hard to catch someone using bright skins, so it's easier to allow it. It's hard to check if people use TS, voip over MSN, are on the telephone so it's allowed. It's hard to check hud's, so some people allow it. It doesn't make it less a cheat.
I think the building bars arent a cheat. Its "only" a advantage. Because Renegade have the same but u have to press K before u can see the building bars. And a cheat is something that isnt included in the original Game.
pe21789 wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 12:40 I think the building bars arent a cheat. Its "only" a advantage. Because Renegade have the same but u have to press K before u can see the building bars. And a cheat is something that isnt included in the original Game. K does not show in real time, you have to tap it fastly, so it's an advantage that makes you a cheater
Jesus Christ, guys. It's a fucking HUD. How can you honestly make such a big deal over it? If anything, this hud is the LEAST of our problems, when it comes to cheaters.
BlueThen wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 09:51 Jesus Christ, guys. It's a fucking HUD. How can you honestly make such a big deal over it? If anything, this hud is the LEAST of our problems, when it comes to cheaters. I actually finally agree with Gozy on the ridiculous nature of these HUDS and why they should be banned. Of course it does not really compare against the cheaters using the solid cheats like aim, auto-aim, wall-hack... What this HUD does is simply take away a strategic aspect of the game. In many ways, this destroys the game for the ENTIRE opposing team in a different way compared to one lone cheater sniping in the tunnels with aimbot. Just imagine if a tech is in base all the time with such an advantage HUD...he will have mine counter, building health meter...the base is virtually secure under a watchful eye that is aided by this HUD. Serious problem here and in no way the "least of our problems."
TANKY wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 10:10 BlueThen wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 09:51 Jesus Christ, guys. It's a fucking HUD. How can you honestly make such a big deal over it? If anything, this hud is the LEAST of our problems, when it comes to cheaters. I actually finally agree with Gozy on the ridiculous nature of these HUDS and why they should be banned. Of course it does not really compare against the cheaters using the solid cheats like aim, auto-aim, wall-hack... What this HUD does is simply take away a strategic aspect of the game. In many ways, this destroys the game for the ENTIRE opposing team in a different way compared to one lone cheater sniping in the tunnels with aimbot. Just imagine if a tech is in base all the time with such an advantage HUD...he will have mine counter, building health meter...the base is virtually secure under a watchful eye that is aided by this HUD. Serious problem here and in no way the "least of our problems." You guys are putting this WAY out of proportion... it's just a hud! The advantage it gives is so insignificant, we shouldn't really be caring now. But a good deal of you are making a big deal out of it, as if it ruins the ENTIRE game.
Renegades gameplay (including its tactical) is already destroyed by overmodded thousand-player-marathon servers with nearly infinite money.
TANKY wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 09:10 BlueThen wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 09:51 Jesus Christ, guys. It's a fucking HUD. How can you honestly make such a big deal over it? If anything, this hud is the LEAST of our problems, when it comes to cheaters. I actually finally agree with Gozy on the ridiculous nature of these HUDS and why they should be banned. Of course it does not really compare against the cheaters using the solid cheats like aim, auto-aim, wall-hack... What this HUD does is simply take away a strategic aspect of the game. In many ways, this destroys the game for the ENTIRE opposing team in a different way compared to one lone cheater sniping in the tunnels with aimbot. Just imagine if a tech is in base all the time with such an advantage HUD...he will have mine counter, building health meter...the base is virtually secure under a watchful eye that is aided by this HUD. Serious problem here and in no way the "least of our problems." The mine counter you speak of only shows the TEAM mine count.
for me this huds are ok,bulding bars and gps hud no exist in orginal game because scripts 3.4.4 no exist in this time.If this hud release to public can be in standard so isnt cheat,or release the code what need to add to orginal hud so evryone can make building bar in any hud.
Zack wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 11:24 The mine counter you speak of only shows the TEAM mine count. Won't it much easier to know then if someone is disarming your mines...you can see your mine count decrease.
TANKY wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 12:40 Zack wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 11:24 The mine counter you speak of only shows the TEAM mine count. Won't it much easier to know then if someone is disarming your mines...you can see your mine count decrease. Exactly. Even if everyone had the HUD's, it would make it way easier to detect sneak attacks and the like... which makes games go at a standstill. Which is boring.
As I mentioned before I don't want this to be released, but it does appear that my point was finally accepted that the logic being used to declare it a cheat was flawed. I can accept that server owners can call it a cheat if they want. That is their right, but that is also their opinion. So this HUD modification is only a cheat on servers where the owner declares it a cheat. Very similar to things like clear scope. Check with the owner of your server and see if it is allowed, if they say no then plan on being banned if caught with it.
pe21789 wrote on Tue, 20 January 2009 15:15 You should stop making Weapon replacments, if u dont like Renegade how it is then G T F O! ^^ then why are you in the mod forum
pvtschlag wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 13:51 As I mentioned before I don't want this to be released, but it does appear that my point was finally accepted that the logic being used to declare it a cheat was flawed. I can accept that server owners can call it a cheat if they want. That is their right, but that is also their opinion. So this HUD modification is only a cheat on servers where the owner declares it a cheat. Very similar to things like clear scope. Check with the owner of your server and see if it is allowed, if they say no then plan on being banned if caught with it. there really is no way to tell what kind of skins/huds you have unless you post a screenshot..
2GLOCK9S wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 15:20 there really is no way to tell what kind of skins/huds you have unless you post a screenshot.. That would be up to the developer of it. If I were making it I would include a way for servers to detect it being used so that it could be disallowed.
pvtschlag wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 14:08 2GLOCK9S wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 15:20 there really is no way to tell what kind of skins/huds you have unless you post a screenshot.. That would be up to the developer of it. If I were making it I would include a way for servers to detect it being used so that it could be disallowed. Just wait for TT - according to gozzy they're doing a PB-like system for screenshots
pe21789 wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 05:40 I think the building bars arent a cheat. Its "only" a advantage. Because Renegade have the same but u have to press K before u can see the building bars. And a cheat is something that isnt included in the original Game. No it isn't. Even though we are on the same side of the argument here, it is not in any way an advantage. You aren't gaining anything that other players don't have. And, to make another point, building bars should be a LEGAL upgrade allowed by all servers so everyone has the option to LEGALLY upgrade to balance out with all the people who went and spent money on those keyboards that do the exact same thing we are talking about. IDEA!: TT should make a default HUD themed building bar addon to the HUD and release it in a patch. Side note: I agree with BlueThen. Even if we all considered this to categorize as a cheat, you aren't upsetting the balance of the gameplay or the final result of the battle, and as such, should not even be bothered with. More attention should be made towards ACTUAL cheats.
Bright texture replacements are worse than this.
2GLOCK9S wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 21:06 pe21789 wrote on Tue, 20 January 2009 15:15 You should stop making Weapon replacments, if u dont like Renegade how it is then G T F O! ^^ then why are you in the mod forum Weapon replacment is only one way to modify Renegade, u know?
R315r4z0r wrote on Sun, 25 January 2009 00:27 pe21789 wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 05:40 I think the building bars arent a cheat. Its "only" a advantage. Because Renegade have the same but u have to press K before u can see the building bars. And a cheat is something that isnt included in the original Game. No it isn't. Even though we are on the same side of the argument here, it is not in any way an advantage. You aren't gaining anything that other players don't have. And, to make another point, building bars should be a LEGAL upgrade allowed by all servers so everyone has the option to LEGALLY upgrade to balance out with all the people who went and spent money on those keyboards that do the exact same thing we are talking about. IDEA!: TT should make a default HUD themed building bar addon to the HUD and release it in a patch. Side note: I agree with BlueThen. Even if we all considered this to categorize as a cheat, you aren't upsetting the balance of the gameplay or the final result of the battle, and as such, should not even be bothered with. More attention should be made towards ACTUAL cheats. I don't know how long you've played this game, or how good you're at it, but I don't think you never had a situation where (in for ex city) there where arts pounding your PP, and you went over there, together with another engi (there where 3 arts, so you need more then one engi). At some point, one art gets smart and will attack the refinery. You won't get the building is under attack message, and if you press K you can't repair. With this HUD, you don't need to, and you'll directly see that the building is under attack, and can take action. While otherwise you would've had to press K every 5 to 10 seconds. That can really cost you the building. (you need 2 full techs to cover from 3 arts afaik). Another point, if you really think it is not an advantage, then why do you want this so badly? I mean, the "normal" advanced HUD is already released. And don't try to get smart with "because you like the looks". There is nothing pretty about 6, 8 or 10 static pictures of buildings next to your renscreen. If you do think that they're pretty, then you can print them on paper and put it next to your monitor (then you're not even waisting screenspace). This mod isn't just there to be pretty, and if you really like it and still believe it is not an advantage, then why not create a couple of static pictures there? This together with the minecount you can overlook the entire base while not even in base. First you mine everything properly, and then you can go anything else, just as long as you can back to the base quicky, when you seen the mines go down. This means that your team basically has a player more then the other team. Sounds pretty advantageous don't you think? That is the mayor argument against this. It will harm gameplay if everyone has it. And if not everyone has it, then it would be unfair for the ones that don't have it. Another point in this is, if you allow the game to be made easier (yes this will really make it easier, if you use it right), then where does it end? I mean, if you allow buildingbars then you're not far away from allowing brightskins. They only make the enemy easier to see, much like buildingbars only makes the base easier to oversee. If you allow brightskins, then you might also allow radarhack. As you would be able to see him anyway, when he got around that corner. If you allow radar hack, then you might as well allow spectate. I mean, you know he was around the corner, so why not just go through the wall to kill him eh? It's just easier and faster.... If we can go through a wall it would also be easier if we could look through it, so we don't get surprised when we go through. Oh and now we're here, let's also allow aimbot. I mean, you didn't have to be careful anymore, because you knew he was around the corner, kwen exactly where he was, you just had to align and press the trigger. You know what? Let's also allow triggerbot, then you only have to press shift to get a kill. Oh wait, then you've taken away about all aspects of the game.... That's my point, This will take certain tactics/strategies of the game. That'd be a pity, would it not? For the TS being a cheat argument: I have used TS often enough in public games, but there's one mayor problem with it. There is at best perhaps half of your team on TS. For proper teamplay, you'll still need to type every thing out. Simply because otherwise you're handicapping your own team. Half of the team can't do teamwork then. Basically you have a disadvantage of having about half of your players less then the other team. Simply because they will use F3 chat, and will hopefully work as a team, with ALL players. And we all know that 1/2 VS 1/4 isn't a match..... Edit: shit, I bet that at least half of the pro-buildingbars is not going to read my post because they think it's too long. Does rove something then....
I pretty much agree with everything EWD just said. He's right on the money. Plus, a release would mean even worse cheats would get made and released. I'm not a pro-coder at all, far from it. But having looked into this, it's quite obvious what is possible, and it's not nice. There would end up being some little ass turd rene coder who wants a name for themselves make, and release a horrid cheat.
EWD talked about ClanWars, but i didnt talked about Clanwars... I ClanWars u should never use any advantage. And the most public server are modified as hell, so there is a custom hud with building bars the smallest problem which change the gameplay.
pe21789 wrote on Sun, 25 January 2009 15:32 EWD talked about ClanWars, but i didnt talked about Clanwars... I ClanWars u should never use any advantage. And the most public server are modified as hell, so there is a custom hud with building bars the smallest problem which change the gameplay. I never said OR meant to say clan, clanwar, or similar. So no, I'm talking about a relatively normal renegade server. Perhaps some small mods, but nothing really big. Like it is on the BI-TK2 server when it's running BI-style. In TK2 style there are hardly any mods besides donation. I don't know on which apparently modded server you play, but I know for sure it's not mine. So now you got a clue from where I'm coming from, you might understand why I'm against this. Even apart from the sensitive parts issue.
Most people play at abnormal "renegade" servers.
donation changes the game like ten times as much as a building bar hud ever could.
Frontier Psychiatrist wrote on Sun, 25 January 2009 18:17 donation changes the game like ten times as much as a building bar hud ever could. Not true. Yes it does change the game pretty much, certainly. But you're forgetting that that can be used by anyone, and can lead to new tactics. Having one player with this lowers the requirement for basedefence, as sneaking would be harder. Mines disappearing, and seeing directly which building's health is going down. Anyway, it would lock up the gameplay, because now you can often in a deadlock situation sneak in and cause at least some havoc.
Quote: That is the mayor argument against this. It will harm gameplay if everyone has it. And if not everyone has it, then it would be unfair for the ones that don't have it. Another point in this is, if you allow the game to be made easier (yes this will really make it easier, if you use it right), then where does it end? I mean, if you allow buildingbars then you're not far away from allowing brightskins. They only make the enemy easier to see, much like buildingbars only makes the base easier to oversee. If you allow brightskins, then you might also allow radarhack. As you would be able to see him anyway, when he got around that corner. If you allow radar hack, then you might as well allow spectate. I mean, you know he was around the corner, so why not just go through the wall to kill him eh? It's just easier and faster.... If we can go through a wall it would also be easier if we could look through it, so we don't get surprised when we go through. Oh and now we're here, let's also allow aimbot. I mean, you didn't have to be careful anymore, because you knew he was around the corner, kwen exactly where he was, you just had to align and press the trigger. You know what? Let's also allow triggerbot, then you only have to press shift to get a kill. Oh wait, then you've taken away about all aspects of the game.... That's my point, This will take certain tactics/strategies of the game. That'd be a pity, would it not? Change gameplay, yes it would. But old tactics get boring also...Having to change your tactics is part of real combat; the enemy will try to find new ways to, in your words, "cheat", their enemy. (Note this is not a support for cheating - I did not mean anything related to allowing cheats) You have to be on your toes and alert. Your argument describing a chain-reaction of allowing building bars is bull----. Here's a suggestion for a compromise(though it'll probably fall on deaf ears) Re-draw the screen that shows building info (the one that shows when you press "K") to appear on the HUD. Not saying make it completely do away with that screen shipped with renegade altogether...simply redraw the info shown on the screen to the HUD - KEEPING the immobile nature of the existing screen. Quote: For the TS being a cheat argument: I have used TS often enough in public games, but there's one mayor problem with it. There is at best perhaps half of your team on TS. For proper teamplay, you'll still need to type every thing out. Simply because otherwise you're handicapping your own team. Half of the team can't do teamwork then. Basically you have a disadvantage of having about half of your players less then the other team. Simply because they will use F3 chat, and will hopefully work as a team, with ALL players. And we all know that 1/2 VS 1/4 isn't a match..... All you really need is about ~5 players on TS and you have a good team/teamplay. Quote: Edit: shit, I bet that at least half of the pro-buildingbars is not going to read my post because they think it's too long. Does rove something then.... lol.
@zack also making it show real time would be cool
EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Sun, 25 January 2009 05:51 I don't know how long you've played this game, or how good you're at it, but I don't think you never had a situation where (in for ex city) there where arts pounding your PP, and you went over there, together with another engi (there where 3 arts, so you need more then one engi). At some point, one art gets smart and will attack the refinery. You won't get the building is under attack message, and if you press K you can't repair. With this HUD, you don't need to, and you'll directly see that the building is under attack, and can take action. While otherwise you would've had to press K every 5 to 10 seconds. That can really cost you the building. (you need 2 full techs to cover from 3 arts afaik Incorrect. This happens to me basically every single time I play Renegade. Let me tell you that the most common time that I use the K button to check my team's other structures is when I'm busy repairing another structure. It is very easy to notice if all of a sudden the structure you are repairing starts to stop taking damage. If that happens then I just press the K key repeatedly until I notice if any other buildings are under attack. It's also very easy to notice a slight difference in the amount of damage the structure you are repairing is taken. For example, if 3 artilleries open fire on the Weapons factory and you are repairing it with a few team mates. It is very easy to notice when 1 or 2 of the 3 artilleries quits and starts to fire on another structure. The damage is notably different an therefore is a red flag to pull up the building status screen. "But wait," you might be thinking, "pressing K while you are repairing a structure is dangerous and you put the entire structure's survival at risk because you are busy reading another screen!" This might be true in theory, but in fact there is no better time to check the status screen. Here are a few useful tips about the building status screen: -The status screen doesn't refresh on its own. If your power plant is taking damage and you hold down K, the power plant icon will stay at the damage it had when you first opened the screen. If you continue to hold down the button, the structure can still take damage and you wouldn't even know until it was destroyed or you exited the menu and opened it again. -The best way to use the status screen is by repeatedly pressing the K button to rapidly flash the screen on and off. Using the power of optical illusion, you will be able to see what's going on in that screen, clear as day, constantly refreshing, as well as what is going on in the game. These next 2 are important: -If you are firing your weapon using PRIMARY fire at the same time you press K to check the screen, your weapon will stop shooting until you press PRIMARY fire again. -If you are firing your weapon using SECONDARY fire at the same time you press k to check the screen, your weapon will stop shooting while you are in the menu, but instantly BEGIN firing again once you exit. What do those last two points have to do with anything? Well I'll tell you. If you are repairing a structure, it is better to hold down SECONDARY fire while using the repair gun and at the same time, repeatedly press K to constantly see if any of your other structures are taking damage. Because you are holding down secondary fire, your gun will begin shooting every time you release the K button. That means if you are rapidly pressing K on and off, it will be hard to notice any interruptions in your 'constant fire' from the outside. And as a plus, the constant flickering of the refreshed status screen gives you a constant update on all of your other structures with no negative drawbacks at all. EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Sun, 25 January 2009 05:51 Another point, if you really think it is not an advantage, then why do you want this so badly? I mean, the "normal" advanced HUD is already released. And don't try to get smart with "because you like the looks". There is nothing pretty about 6, 8 or 10 static pictures of buildings next to your renscreen. If you do think that they're pretty, then you can print them on paper and put it next to your monitor (then you're not even waisting screenspace). This mod isn't just there to be pretty, and if you really like it and still believe it is not an advantage, then why not create a couple of static pictures there? I have already explained my views on this HUD. If you don't care to read my posts and just assume things that's fine, it doesn't bother me. However, my stance on this HUD is this: It should NOT be released. I've clearly stated a number of times that I do not use the building health bar HUD nor do I support its release into the public because of all the controversial problems that arise from all the people with incorrect outlooks on what it would do to the game. I've also said that the only reason why I keep the current version of the HUD is because I think it looks nice... despite all the negative flaws that hurt my game. When I use this HUD, I feel as if I have a disadvantage from other people. And that's another reason why I like it. (I don't mean that as an insult to Deathlink. This HUD is excellent!) EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Sun, 25 January 2009 05:51 This together with the minecount you can overlook the entire base while not even in base. First you mine everything properly, and then you can go anything else, just as long as you can back to the base quicky, when you seen the mines go down. This means that your team basically has a player more then the other team. Sounds pretty advantageous don't you think? I don't quite understand what you mean. What do you mean by "having another player?" In another thread I've also said that it isn't possible to watch the tiny mine counter in the corner of the screen while you are consciously playing the actual game. If mines go down, you will not notice it unless you are consciously watching and waiting for mines to go down. And if that is the case, you trade off your awareness and make yourself more vulnerable to enemies. Would you rather: -Play a game of Renegade for an hour? -Watch a tiny number in the bottom corner of the screen for an hour? Try as you like, can't do both. Therefore there is a trade off between the two. Not to mention there is the !C4 command which is available to all players already, thus meaning you are gaining no advantage over anyone.
R315r4z0r wrote on Sun, 25 January 2009 12:59 I don't quite understand what you mean. What do you mean by "having another player?" He means there is no need for anyone to be in base standing guard because with this advantage HUD, you can always fall back to defend when you see the mine counter decreasing AND or you can alert your mates about the decreasing mines. That's a big change to gameplay. R315r4z0r wrote on Sun, 25 January 2009 12:59 In another thread I've also said that it isn't possible to watch the tiny mine counter in the corner of the screen while you are consciously playing the actual game. If mines go down, you will not notice it unless you are consciously watching and waiting for mines to go down. And if that is the case, you trade off your awareness and make yourself more vulnerable to enemies. Would you rather: -Play a game of Renegade for an hour? -Watch a tiny number in the bottom corner of the screen for an hour? Try as you like, can't do both. Therefore there is a trade off between the two. Not to mention there is the !C4 command which is available to all players already, thus meaning you are gaining no advantage over anyone. It takes less than a fraction of a second to notice the tiny minecounter and your brain to process that information and alert your mates or do something yourself. Say you are in an APC and you been shooting with the mounted machine gun, does it take you 5 minutes to realize that your ammo is at 17 and you need to reload by pressing "R"? Players will easily get used to the mine counter. The mines are there to slow down the enemy and hence, to stop a building from getting infiltrated. If a player DOES sneak into a base and begins disarming the mines without the enemy team's knowledge, then that player fully deserves to blow the damn hell out of that building. The mine counter negates that player's skill and gives the advantage to the enemy team in making them instantly aware of the fact that their base is being infiltrated. Say goodbye to a strong facet of Renegade's online gameplay! Same goes for building health meters.
O_O Where have you been? ----- Anyway. I know when to reload because I fired a shot. Why would my ammo be at 15 and I not know about it? I'd know with my eyes closed that I should reload... However, basing of the idea that your metaphor worked in this argument, the difference is that the ammo counter for your weapon pops up in the center of the screen where your eyes should be by default. You might not think so, but you heavily rely on that popup in the middle of the screen to tell you your health and ammo. (much less for ammo, but you still rely on it a lot) The original release of this HUD didn't have the popups in the middle of the screen that showed you when you lost health, were at low health, or when you were spending ammo. I died and ran out of ammo a lot without realizing it. Many other people did also. They complained, and that's why those popups are now in the new version of the HUD. So if you think I'm joking when I say you wont notice anything that goes on on the side edges and corners of your HUD, I'm not. You don't notice anything that happens on the edges of your HUD. Be it your health dropping or ammo dropping, or anything else. You don't notice it. So if you can't notice a large number that shows you how much something as important as your HEALTH is left, what makes you think something as irrelevant and tiny as the mine counter will be actively noticed? Or even remembered is there? This mine counter is out of the way, small in size, and requires a conscious effort to see. Therefore if you are doing anything else that requires your attention, anything, you wont even remember you have the counter. But when you do realize you have the counter and consciously watch it like a hawk, then you put yourself at a disadvantage because you would be staring at a little counter waiting for it to drop where as you could be doing something constructive with your time. The point is, if the counter is at 30 and it begins to drop 1 mine at a time, you wont even notice it. Why wont you notice it? I said so above. But in case that isn't good enough, think about this: Because it takes time to disarm a mine. About 3-8 seconds depending on the repair gun you are using. If you glimpse down and see the number 28 in the mine counter, you would simply assume that your team has 28 mines out. It only takes you about a second to check that thing. You wont sit there waiting 3-8 seconds to see if it goes down. But lets say you remember it being at 28 mines, then 10 min later, look down to see it has 15 mines. What does that mean? That someone blew up/disarmed some mines in the past 10 min? The best thing to do would just to say to your team "Someone mine the base!" Just like any other player would without the mine counter HUD. You might be thinking what I'm saying is all circumstantial and isn't anything really solid to prove it's irrelevancy. Well think about this: If you are in a server, how often do you use the !c4 command or its respective key binding? The amount of times you use that command is essentially the same amount that you will actually remember to look at your counter. Also, not to mention, the !c4 command gives you the counts of both Remote and proximity C4, where as this counter only shows you proximity mines.
Yo! It may just be me but I have never noticed the flashing round countdown. The ammo counter in the corner is where my eyes look because it not only shows the rounds in the magazine but also many rounds I got left. You have a point with the mine counter in respect to the disarming time but I think a lot depends on how many players have the HUD and who is looking and not looking and how many Hots/Techs are disarming it. It's like having a rear view mirror attached in front of your head so you know what's behind you without needing to turn around! You may have to take your eyes off the road to look at the mirror but only for an instant and I think you will agree it is far more advantageous than actually turning around.
Just to burst your bubble but ever since I downloaded the hud with the mine counter I tend to look at it every 30secs or so. Just like I do with my ammo. I dont have the pop up thing with the ammo I couldn't be bothered downloading it. But when im in an apc or hummer I ALWAYS have a quick look to see where my ammo is. Yeah we had the !c4 command but you have to stop type !c4 and then wait 3seconds for it to disappear before you could use it again. Same the the building bars. I DONT often press K unless I notice that there is X amount of artys shooting yet its really easy to repair against it. I press K and I look to see what building has been hit and I run there. With having the bars on screen all the time you wouldn't even get to the point where you think hold on 3 artys 1 tech this is really easy to repair because you WILL look at the screen and instantly notice your other building is being hit. That extra 2 seconds you have just earned yourself could end up saving the building and thus winning the game. Stop being so naive. If we have the information at hand we will use it. Its in our nature to do something the easiest way possible.
TBH, I could care less about the mine counter(even though all I have to do is press the "END" key). Also, this argument isn't worth 3 pages of topic to read and keep up with. It's mostly just the same thoughts going back and forth with a few examples added in and some very lengthy descriptions, too. Both sides have their opinions and they're more than welcome to be entitled to their opinion. As for me personally, I don't consider this a cheat. I've expressed two (if not three?) possible compromises to the building bars on the HUD and andr3w282 has already shown it's possible to do my suggestion. Both sides and consider they've won; I've seen both sides of the argument and both sides have valid points.
andr3w282 wrote on Thu, 22 January 2009 17:53 *cough* http://andr3w282.bitpwns.com/hud_hide.wmv Trying to expand on my c++ nice
@ Caveman: Congratulations. You know how to physically contradict points that have already been made. For all I know, you downloaded the HUD with all my arguments already in mind and purposely made sure you acted against what I said. I'm not taking a word you say as factual because you give no proof that you did what you say. I don't even know that you even downloaded the HUD, let alone tried it in an actual server! However, I said in my last post that you rely heavily on the popups in the middle of the screen, such as the health and ammo. Much less the ammo because it isn't vital to your survival. It's more important to know how much reserve ammo you have left, which is why it is more efficient to glare down at the corner when you are reloading or in a standstill. However, your Health is something you don't notice. You said yourself you didn't bother downloading the popup addon. So play a few rounds of Renegade on some servers and tell me if you find that you die seemingly faster than you would with the normal HUD. That is the key. Not being able to see something vital to your game.
Dude? I was one of the first people to notice the HP popup. I was the one who said Deathlink I love your hud but can you fix it but he said he didn't know how. http://www.renegadeforums.com/index.php?t=msg&rid=19777&prevloaded=1&amp ;th=31360&start=75 Scroll down to around half the page you will see a post from me asking the creator to make the HP flash cos I was dying and not noticing it. I said in that post that I didn't download the AMMO popup since Sabar released 2 version one with just the HP flashing and then he released another with the ammo which I didn't download. I have ALWAYS relied on looking down the bottom at my ammo, I do it so much that I have a habbit of pressing R every bloody 10 seconds because I see i've used my ammo and I want a full clip. I'll repeat what I said, ever since I downloaded the hud I find myself looking at the mine count every 30 seconds or so. I can only imagine that if I had the building bars on there aswell I would look at that too.
Well, whatever. My mistake. I rarely ever look at it. And if I do, it isn't purposely. My point is, I don't consider it a cheat in the slightest, and I encourage, no, I want other people to use this HUD against me.
I think the arguments for and against this have been repeated enough now. Let's try to talk about another subject and let this one die a peaceful dead.
Goztow wrote on Tue, 27 January 2009 07:11 I think the arguments for and against this have been repeated enough now. Let's try to talk about another subject and let this one die a peaceful dead. http://www.n00bstories.com/image.fetch.php?id=1184529682 discuss
andr3w282 wrote on Tue, 27 January 2009 08:21 Goztow wrote on Tue, 27 January 2009 07:11 I think the arguments for and against this have been repeated enough now. Let's try to talk about another subject and let this one die a peaceful dead. http://www.n00bstories.com/image.fetch.php?id=1184529682 discuss Why stop there? Might aswell add the enemy positions too, and not just dots, but what each of the players characters are too, and any vehicle they might be in. There health would be good too. That's outrageous. I can't believe you can justify to yourself that using that is acceptable.
Why not add GDI while you're at it? And maybe add a little cursor that allows you to replace people's position, just like in C&C . That'll make it much more like C&C was. Oh and Sir Kane made this about ermm 1,5 to 2 years ago, I think. I hope it helped your coding knowledge and that you will be fair enough not to use it.
That feature needs a right click -> "kill" option.
Goztow wrote on Tue, 27 January 2009 00:11 I think the arguments for and against this have been repeated enough now. Let's try to talk about another subject and let this one die a peaceful dead. hehe. Familiar statement
@reborn/Goztow: I'm 100% sure he didn't intend for the enemy team to be shown on that display...
Saberhawk wrote on Tue, 27 January 2009 17:24 @reborn/Goztow: I'm 100% sure he didn't intend for the enemy team to be shown on that display... I was trying to make a point, please work with me!
If you guys actually looked clearly at that screenshot you'll notice there is NOT any enemy information being displayed. I actually added the proper code to NOT display enemy information. @reborn you must really need to chill the fuck out. Clearly if i was going to add additional information I would have by now. I would have thought you, as a learning programmer would understand my situation that im simply trying to learn and do more from a programming aspect. When did i say using this is justified? do you see me releasing the source or a compiled version of it ? and if you REALLY must know that screenshot was taken in a server to actually visibly see all the units, as apposed to where I do any of my testing in a PRIVATE empty hosted LAN game. @Goztow read my above comment of "If that is the case I would have by now". Also, not to be rude.. but no shit SK made that a very long time ago. Just like the custom hud, custom sounds, and many different serverside addons and fixes. I give him full credit for his creativity on these different things and respect him for it. There's no harm in me using his creative ideas to practice and improve on my programming. Also, of course I would continue to play the game fairly. Why did I post that link? pretty much just for shits and giggles to see the reactions people have to it. Also ty saberhawk for the reply. And just an fyi, saberhawk has seen the progression of the random shit i've been doing and he realizes im doing it just to learn shit.