Command and Conquer: Renegade Official Forums - RDF feed
type: channel
description: C&C: Renegade --> Dying since 2003™, resurrected in 2024!
items: in regard to the points fix
items: Re: in regard to the points fix

in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: "Points Fix - fixes an error in the way points are calculated when attacking vehicles with green health. Against all other targets, points are directly proportionate to damage, but not green-health vehicles due to a coding mistake. This is why, for example, snipers could get illogically high points for attacking heavy vehicles they did very little damage to." a coding mistake? Was there not any testing done on this game before it came out? Yes, there was, just like there is with any other game Do you think while the testing going on everyone testing (or the majority, because there are some pretty unobservant people), noticed what was going on regarding the point fix? Yes Do you think westwood if they had intended it to be so, would have fixed this issue prior to releasing the game to the public? Of course. The implementation of this points fix, which the majority of the renegade community does not promote, is just a way for a few people to get what they want... Spoony and everyone else supporting it can say whatever they want but the point fix does more bad than good. Hopefully they will do the right thing and abandon it before forcing it onto everyone. I don't think even Spoony can deny that the majority of people don't like the pointsfix, which is why he goes to his argument of Westwoods' intentions. Leave the game alone how it was obviously meant to be (the way it was released) and even if the small chance appears that westwood did intend for the points fix to be put in, Spoony should try something that sometimes can be hard for him to do. Listen. Westwood has nothing to do with this game anymore other that they made it, so why not listen to the people that really matter. The ones that play it. for those who may have just heard about the points fix, it is pretty easy to see that the majority of the community doesn't support it. I'm not positive but I believe clanwars uses it, although reluctantly. I'm absolutely sure that Jelly, the most popular community in Rene…
creator: i0ncl0ud9
date: 2008-07-02T00:29:55-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: I'll copypaste the reply on jelly. i0ncl0ud9 wrote on Tue, 01 July 2008 19:26 "Points Fix - fixes an error in the way points are calculated when attacking vehicles with green health. Against all other targets, points are directly proportionate to damage, but not green-health vehicles due to a coding mistake. This is why, for example, snipers could get illogically high points for attacking heavy vehicles they did very little damage to." a coding mistake? yes. i0ncl0ud9 wrote on Tue, 01 July 2008 19:26 Was there not any testing done on this game before it came out? Yes, there was, just like there is with any other game Do you think while the testing going on everyone testing (or the majority, because there are some pretty unobservant people), noticed what was going on regarding the point fix? Yes Do you think westwood if they had intended it to be so, would have fixed this issue prior to releasing the game to the public? Of course. every time someone brings this up, I point out the terrible flaw, which is this: - by your logic, backwalking the ob is intended. - by your logic, base to base - even the most unfair example, i.e. a MRLS behind the barracks on Islands - is intended. - by your logic, bluescreening is intended. i0ncl0ud9 wrote on Tue, 01 July 2008 19:26 Spoony and everyone else supporting it can say whatever they want but the point fix does more bad than good. I hear this a lot, and I always make a point of asking the person to elaborate. More often than not I get either an embarrassed silence or an insult in response. Please feel free to do better than that; Why does it do more bad than good? I can make a long, long list of the good it does. I've still yet to hear a single convincing "bad" thing it does. i0ncl0ud9 wrote on Tue, 01 July 2008 19:26 I don't think even Spoony can deny that the majority of people don't like the pointsfix, which is why he goes to his argument of Westwoods' intentions. I'm afraid the flaw here is the argument of Westwood's intentio…
creator: Spoony
date: 2008-07-02T00:45:28-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: at least 5 pages!
creator: Herr Surth
date: 2008-07-02T00:50:08-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: It'd be fairest if there was a way to switch the 'fix' on or off, then everybody wins. To be honest, I'm happy to see people's habits change in-game. Fewer idiots with ramjets shooting at tanks for the points, means more people buying PIC's/Railgun's to actually put the tanks out of commission.
creator: nikki6ixx
date: 2008-07-02T00:51:12-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: I don't know how to do all this quoting stuff, so ill reply to each of your responses by separating them into different paragraphs. If yes is the best response you have to this, then I win this argument by logic. Unless you have proof to back up what you say, it can't be considered true. It should be assumed by default that if Westwood intended anything then they would have done it themselves. I doubt westwood knew about any of those things at the time, and if they did, probably just hoped nobody would exploit them. To say that Westwood left a coding error in the game that could have easily been fixed before its release is just stupid Spoony, come on. Sorry, I was already writing a long post and didn't want to make it any longer than it needed to be. Here's how I explained it in my other post: [Why is this point fix so important. Basically the only thing that will happen now is 1) people will get even more bored from lack of money, 2) people who want to use infantry will be at a huge disadvantage to get points, which I actually find more of a pointsbug than what we currently have now... This is basically forcing people who want to get points to use tanks.] Sorry, I didn't give you credit that you would be able to create a backup plan in advance of the community not accepting the pointsfix idea. Thats your opinion Spoony, which for some reason you think trumps everyone else's. Your not making much sense. A balance disaster? It is the thing that balances out the game itself Spoony, not that hard to see. Actually, I'm just trying to show that there are multiple reasons why not to put in the points fix, but call it whatever you want. Im sorry Im able to backup my reasoning better than yours.
creator: i0ncl0ud9
date: 2008-07-02T01:15:53-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: In fact, you only "backed up" your reasonings by your own opinions. I don't see how that suddenly validates your own arguments and invalidates Spoony's when he tries to present "his opinions". People get bored with no money? Here's something they could try: defend their Refinery and make sure it doesn't get destroyed. They could also make themselves useful by attacking the enemy base. You shouldn't win by losing buildings. Of course tanks should get more points. They do more damage against buildings than small arms and thus should get a bigger reward. Westwood didn't fix it probably because they were broken up before they had the chance to fix it. That's why it's called a bug, and hasn't been fixed.
creator: cmatt42
date: 2008-07-02T01:38:36-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: nikki6ixx wrote on Tue, 01 July 2008 20:51 It'd be fairest if there was a way to switch the 'fix' on or off, then everybody wins. Exactly, then there's no need to have 10 page flame wars about it.
creator: Homey
date: 2008-07-02T02:09:50-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: i0ncl0ud9 wrote on Tue, 01 July 2008 20:54 If yes is the best response you have to this, then I win this argument by logic. I'm afraid you don't. It's already been proven that the error in the points calculation formula is exactly that - an error. i0ncl0ud9 wrote on Tue, 01 July 2008 20:54 It should be assumed by default that if Westwood intended anything then they would have done it themselves. I doubt westwood knew about any of those things at the time, and if they did, probably just hoped nobody would exploit them. Oh dear... they hoped that just because there's a place inside the GDI base where the most powerful GDI long-range tank can completely safely hit the Nod base for the entire game, doesn't mean anybody would. They hoped that just because a GDI player can walk right into the Nod base, doesn't mean anybody would. As for bluescreening, you can't even pretend to claim Westwood hoped nobody would exploit that, since it isn't even a tactic in itself. i0ncl0ud9 wrote on Tue, 01 July 2008 20:54 Sorry, I didn't give you credit that you would be able to create a backup plan in advance of the community not accepting the pointsfix idea. I don't understand - could you clarify what the "backup plan" is? i0ncl0ud9 wrote on Tue, 01 July 2008 20:54 Thats your opinion Spoony, which for some reason you think trumps everyone else's. hmmm. that's an odd statement. I do always go to the trouble of asking people to justify their opinions. contrary to what you seem to think, that's not actually a bad thing. i0ncl0ud9 wrote on Tue, 01 July 2008 20:54 A balance disaster? It is the thing that balances out the game itself Spoony, not that hard to see. oh, wow. I can't believe you just said that. The game is completely fair with the pointsfix. With the pointsbug, quite a few maps are horribly one-sided. That's not even mentioning the absurdity of defensive gameplay trumping offensive gameplay, the sheer nonsense of killing the WF being a disadvantage on some maps, etc etc etc. i0nc…
creator: Spoony
date: 2008-07-02T02:11:59-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: I concede my argument. For anyone who is interested... It really just boils down to preference of the player. http://jelly-server.com/nuke/modules.php?name=FUDForums&file=index&t=msg &th=9528&start=0&S=f9bace9359cea7a4c7f4b9f9b4b426ac
creator: i0ncl0ud9
date: 2008-07-02T03:43:17-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Westwood probably didn't know about it, otherwise they would have fixed it. This all comes down to a coding error in an alorythm, which was discovered by Stealtheye. Maybe he should show the code so people can understand what happened. Or do you think it's normal that without the point fix, Under is won on points by GDI only using APC's versus anything Nod can throw at them? I don't understand how people can actually argue against the point fix: havocs getting 10 points for every shot on a tank, wtf? Every character's points are always related to the damage they do, except for the characters that were fixed by the points fix. Strange stuff, isn't it? If many people say that they're against it, it's probably because it's new and people like to keep things they know. I haven't heard any real argument against the point fix, really, other than "it sucks". Yes, you need to slightly change some tactics, no it doesn't change the game a lot. I'm personally not against an option to turn it off server side, though: a server owner should be able to do whatever he wants to do. Edit: can't read the jelly topic either.
creator: Goztow
date: 2008-07-02T06:48:57-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: the fact is error or not pointfix is something which imo most ren'rs do not want. Back walking the ob, c4 glitching are things that are just lame, but point fix is something not that many people have a problem with. I don't see why point fix can't just stay server side and therefore be able to be turned on or off by the server owner. As far as I can see the point fix is being forced upon us. TT team is giving us the choice between *cheat name removed*and pointfix. Which is a no brainer. 'Gozy wrote' I'm personally not against an option to turn it off server side, though: a server owner should be able to do whatever he wants to do. This is what I think should be done.
creator: Jamie or NuneGa
date: 2008-07-02T09:19:52-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: NuneGa wrote on Wed, 02 July 2008 17:19 the fact is error or not pointfix is something which imo most ren'rs do not want. Back walking the ob, c4 glitching are things that are just lame, but point fix is something not that many people have a problem with. I don't see why point fix can't just stay server side and therefore be able to be turned on or off by the server owner. As far as I can see the point fix is being forced upon us. TT team is giving us the choice between *cheat name removed*and pointfix. Which is a no brainer. 'Gozy wrote' I'm personally not against an option to turn it off server side, though: a server owner should be able to do whatever he wants to do. This is what I think should be done. How about you just let them work on it instead of complaining in your poorly written, poorly executed "Points Fix is BAD!" posts. There have been several other posts on the subject, and I'm sure they're going to do what they think is best for the community as a whole. And if that means a switch for the goddamned point fix, then they'll do it. In the meantime, please shut the hell up.
creator: TruYuri
date: 2008-07-02T10:25:38-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: TruYuri, I think these kind of discussions DO matter: this must be a patch by and for the community. So it's not a matter of TT forcing things on people.
creator: Goztow
date: 2008-07-02T11:20:43-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Goztow wrote on Wed, 02 July 2008 06:20 TruYuri, I think these kind of discussions DO matter: this must be a patch by and for the community. So it's not a matter of TT forcing things on people. I know that they matter, and personally I think they should (and probably will) create a switch for the points fix. I want these discussions, I want a Renegade (and any W3D projects) that is (as much as we can do) bug-free and exploit-less. I just want him and his, as I said, "poorly written, poorly executed" posts to come to a stop. He STILL hasn't given these "reasons" that he claimed he has and Spoony has asked for.
creator: TruYuri
date: 2008-07-02T11:31:30-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: The announcement, which states WHY it is obviously a coding error. Unless you can prove otherwise Ion... I would recommend reading hte long version too, if you decide to not do that, you should perhapss choose a simpler game to play, pinball perhaps? Crimson wrote on Mon, 27 August 2007 17:47 I am presenting this in two versions. The short version for those of you with ADD, and the long version for those of you who want to debate about the subject and/or know all the gory details. SHORT VERSION BlackIntel discovered a bug in the points calculation code while doing research for BIATCH. Fixing this bug results in a better-balanced gameplay by (most noticeably) removing the disproportionate point gains you would get from doing negligible damage to heavy-armored units. This points fix has been running on a few servers, such as Jelly (AOW1), n00bstories, SpoonyServ, and BlackIntel for roughly 2 months. The Ladder Team is confident that this fix provides a more balanced and more fun game experience for the majority of players. We also feel that this is a crucial component to balancing the ladder calculations and will therefore be requiring the use of this fix for servers that wish to participate in the ladder. LONG VERSION (under spoiler) (if you wish to debate this subject, we INSIST that you become familiar with these facts and figures) Click here to read the LONG VERSION StealthEye of BlackIntel (emphasis added) It definitely is a bug, notice how it behaves differently on health than on armor as well. (You don't get many points for shooting health with those weapons). The bug affects all damage on armor with a warhead multiplier of != 1, because it is the warhead multiplier that is missing. Actually, it calculates points like this: vehicledamagemultiplier * rawdamage * warheadmultiplier / warheadmultiplier It should be: vehicledamagemultiplier * rawdamage * warheadmultiplier Because the warheadmultiplier is low for ramjets, and rawdamage (see the tables on http://www.b…
creator: EvilWhiteDragon
date: 2008-07-02T11:37:00-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: i0ncl0ud9: go play on BI1 or TK2 AOW for a few weeks. Then tell me what your opinion of the pointsfix is. Also: C4 not getting enough points really hurts the opening of clan games. Now that this is fixed, Engi rushing the harvester on Field and Walls has taken its rightful place as an early-game staple. Finally, what's so great about buying a Havoc/Sakura on non-Flying maps?
creator: =HT=T-Bird
date: 2008-07-02T15:20:30-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: What about the marathon servers? Have you ever tried joining into a game with no refinery(which is a very common thing). That's unbearable enough, but when pointsfix is on, there'll be no way to get credits in an effective way. Sure the points fix makes sense, but it makes the game so much duller. I'd rather have an extremely fun game over one that makes sense. This is just an opinion I don't want to get my post dismantled commented on and then flamed, because it won't change my opinion.
creator: nope.avi
date: 2008-07-02T15:39:57-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Baker wrote on Wed, 02 July 2008 17:39 What about the marathon servers? Have you ever tried joining into a game with no refinery(which is a very common thing). That's unbearable enough, but when pointsfix is on, there'll be no way to get credits in an effective way. Sure the points fix makes sense, but it makes the game so much duller. I'd rather have an extremely fun game over one that makes sense. This is just an opinion I don't want to get my post dismantled commented on and then flamed, because it won't change my opinion. Why even bother to post in an discussion when you already state that your opinion is not going to change? That's just stupid. Though I can see your point, there should be better and more logical ways to fix this. For example just give everyone, always twice the points (and credits) for what he/she does. Or create a base income of (for ex.) 0.5 creds/s,even when ref is dead, that would imply 1 credit every 2 seconds, besides of what you get for doing damage. Also, you shouldn't loose your refinery, and if you do it would be fair for it to make you loose the game. Else you can say the same thing for the WF and barracks. If those 2 are already destroyed when you get ingame you're also fucked... Or just 1 of the 2 and you are reasonably fucked.
creator: EvilWhiteDragon
date: 2008-07-02T15:47:42-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Baker wrote on Wed, 02 July 2008 17:39 What about the marathon servers? Have you ever tried joining into a game with no refinery(which is a very common thing). That's unbearable enough, but when pointsfix is on, there'll be no way to get credits in an effective way. I'll simply ask: You join a game halfway through, after your refinery has died, and you think the pointsfix is why you've got cashflow problems?
creator: Spoony
date: 2008-07-02T15:50:28-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: In part, yes. With points fix it's much harder to get credits. But without you can get shooters and hit enemy tanks etc.
creator: nope.avi
date: 2008-07-02T16:35:06-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Baker wrote on Wed, 02 July 2008 18:35 In part, yes. With points fix it's much harder to get credits. But without you can get shooters and hit enemy tanks etc. And in fully logic, you think it's fair that though you don't do any damage, you get more points than an engi with remotes? Something is not right here...
creator: EvilWhiteDragon
date: 2008-07-02T16:57:45-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: If your Ref is dead and you need credits, GET AN ENGI AND RUN AROUND, FIXING YOUR TEAM'S JUNK. Is that easier said than done?
creator: =HT=T-Bird
date: 2008-07-02T17:31:03-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: In Dutch we have an expression that, translated, would say: "there's no man more deaf than the one that doesn't want to hear".
creator: Goztow
date: 2008-07-02T17:42:13-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Baker wrote on Wed, 02 July 2008 11:35 In part, yes. With points fix it's much harder to get credits. But without you can get shooters and hit enemy tanks etc. It makes no sense whatsoever that you should get credits shooting something you do no damage to, nor was it intended to be in the game, and the fact you also get points for it clearly misbalances the game. As for the case of not having enough money, there are two points to be made here. Firstly, joining a game halfway through, when half your base might already be dead, is strategically stupid. If you want to do join at that time, by all means do so. But don't complain if you can't buy a tank because your WF's dead, if you can't buy advanced infantry because your barracks is dead, or if you are strapped for money because your refinery is dead. Secondly, here are some things you can do if you don't have money: - Get an engineer and heal your teammates. You do get some credits for this, but more importantly, you are very much helping your team. - GDI soldier, and to a lesser extent Nod soldier. These are deceptively useful against light vehicles and infantry. Sure you'll die quite a lot, but that's a small price to pay for helping your team kill them. This won't help much if the entire attacking enemies are heavy vehicles, in which case it's very likely they'll be shelling your base, in which case you can just fix the building for money. - Try sneaking, even with an engineer. On most maps this is at least plausible, if not easy; on other maps you can grenade buildings. All of the above have something in common which the idea of shooting heavy tanks with a soldier does not; they all help your team, and they all make sense.
creator: Spoony
date: 2008-07-02T18:35:36-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: As a server owner, with a community with very mixed vies on the fix, and servers where game play is very different, I'd like the option of the points fix. I do not think this should be forced on anyone. As I stated in a topic I made earlier, I do not want to install the patch on our marathon server if it involves the points fix being mandatory. Every other thing in the patch is excellent. I've asked for it to be optional, to which I have had neither a yes or a no. If the answer is no, then why? Surely having run a community for over 4 years I have some idea on what's best for the people that play in our servers?
creator: Jellybe4n
date: 2008-07-02T18:37:56-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: I don't mind an option if does not cause any problems. However I still have not heard any argument against the points fix. The marathon thing comes closest, but you should see that there are more fair ways to fix this than to enforce the players to shoot on heavy armored vehicles with weapons that are clearly not made for that. The argument that it would not be a bug is ridiculous, it doesn't make sense anywhere, as explained in the full version of the original points fix announcement. It is undenyably a bug. About the shotgunner -> grenadier thing, that's indeed a minor change of tactics, but as you already said does not really matter uch after you get used to pressing E-3 instead of E-2 . The point fix hardly affects existing tactics. Many "arguments" I hear about that the points fix would be bad are simply not true, and make me doubt whether the ones posting them even know what they are talking about. This does not apply to all of you, but please try the point fix before trying to argue about it.
creator: StealthEye
date: 2008-07-03T10:10:29-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Funny how Ion stopped posting...
creator: sadukar09
date: 2008-07-03T11:23:17-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: This whole pointfix things does actually make sense and makes the game fair and I respect TT's efforts to defend it. The problem is that it should have been fixed years ago, now time has passed, peoples perceptions have changed. 5 years ago people would say " why the fuck do you get so many points for shooting a harvy with a ramjet when it does so little damage? Shouldnt Westwood fix that shit? Its not fair!" The above scenario never was fixed because Westwood is no more. Because it was never fixed, people got used to it and their perception accepted that it was a normal feature of renegade. The current state of affairs is that now people are actually defending the flaw. Is it even a flaw? To a person who thinks logically and methodically it is, the current system is no doubt a complete flaw! But the inconvenient truth is Human nature, people are reluctant to change, dont force it on them..... IMO the time to apply the points fix passed a long time ago, better to leave things the way they are and enjoy what time renegade has left.....Peace out!
creator: kannies
date: 2008-07-03T13:02:23-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: So your whole argument is: yes, it's a bug, yes it should have been fixed a long time ago but as it hasn't been, we got used to it so you shouldn't fix it anymore because otherwise people might need to change their well known strategies ever so slightly. That's a bit like saying: Mugabe is a bad dictator for Zimbabwe, we've known that for a very long time, he shouldn't have had the power all this time but now that we get the possibility to elect someone else, we shouldn't do so because we're used to Mugabe being bad now.
creator: Goztow
date: 2008-07-03T13:16:09-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: I don't struggle with income on lost-refinery-marathon games, and I play marathon (Jelly-RA) only, and I use the tactics Spoony detailed in his post.
creator: CarrierII
date: 2008-07-03T16:22:12-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Goztow wrote on Thu, 03 July 2008 08:16 So your whole argument is: yes, it's a bug, yes it should have been fixed a long time ago but as it hasn't been, we got used to it so you shouldn't fix it anymore because otherwise people might need to change their well known strategies ever so slightly. That's a bit like saying: Mugabe is a bad dictator for Zimbabwe, we've known that for a very long time, he shouldn't have had the power all this time but now that we get the possibility to elect someone else, we shouldn't do so because we're used to Mugabe being bad now. you're comparing the points system in renegade to a dictator in africa?
creator: liquidv2
date: 2008-07-05T05:09:55-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
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description: Yes sir!
creator: Goztow
date: 2008-07-05T08:08:18-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
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description: Odd comparison or not, it's a fair one.
creator: Craziac
date: 2008-07-05T16:37:34-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Actually, that would only work if they people didn't know he was "bad" per se and accepted it as norm.
creator: cmatt42
date: 2008-07-05T20:03:55-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: cmatt42 wrote on Sat, 05 July 2008 22:03 Actually, that would only work if they people didn't know he was "bad" per se and accepted it as norm. How do you think the people in Zimbabwe live?
creator: Goztow
date: 2008-07-05T20:26:57-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Are you guys going to refund my money for renegade when you force online to suck?
creator: Rocko
date: 2008-07-05T21:03:17-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Goztow wrote on Sat, 05 July 2008 15:26 How do you think the people in Zimbabwe live? I don't see where you're going with this, but we're going off topic now. Rocko wrote on Sat, 05 July 2008 16:03 Are you guys going to refund my money for renegade when you force online to suck? Yes, how dare they make the game better with boatloads of fixes and improvements.
creator: cmatt42
date: 2008-07-05T23:17:09-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Rocko wrote on Sat, 05 July 2008 23:03 Are you guys going to refund my money for renegade when you force online to suck? Why don't you refund the time I spend using and moderating your stupid messages?
creator: Goztow
date: 2008-07-06T10:15:14-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Rocko wrote on Sat, 05 July 2008 23:03 Are you guys going to refund my money for renegade when you force online to suck? Are you going to pay for the patch? Are you donating any member of the staff currently? Have you donated for the great piece of work called Renguard? have you donated for something called Corepatch 1/2? Have you donated for something called scripts.dll? Have you donated BlackIntel for BIATCH? Are you donating the serverowner of the server where you currently play the most? I bet that you don't do any of these things, so I also bet that none has ANY reason to refund ANYTHING to you. Besides that, as you should've read, Renegade got a notice ingame, which says that gameplay may change with online play. So you got really NO reason at all to ask for a refund. Actually we should ask for money, jsut because of lame fucktards like you who don't even show a tiny bit of appreciation.
creator: EvilWhiteDragon
date: 2008-07-06T13:56:45-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Rocko wrote on Sat, 05 July 2008 16:03 Are you guys going to refund my money for renegade when you force online to suck?
creator: Rocko
date: 2008-07-06T21:11:31-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Have you actually played on a server with the pointsfix on?
creator: Ghostshaw
date: 2008-07-06T21:24:14-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Rocko wrote on Sun, 06 July 2008 23:11 Rocko wrote on Sat, 05 July 2008 16:03 Are you guys going to refund my money for renegade when you force online to suck? No. <Rocko> Thanks for answering You're welcome.
creator: StealthEye
date: 2008-07-06T22:08:52-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: you're doing a lot of hard work for a lot of people who are fine with renegade the way it was released and have played it consistently that way for 6 years that's what Rocko is saying
creator: liquidv2
date: 2008-07-06T22:18:44-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: liquidv2 wrote on Sun, 06 July 2008 17:18 you're doing a lot of hard work for a lot of people who are fine with renegade the way it was released and have played it consistently that way for 6 years that's what Rocko is saying They have put plenty of stress on how this tiny pointsfix will make NEGLIGIBLE changes to your actual gameplay.
creator: TruYuri
date: 2008-07-06T23:07:29-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: so wat, if its "negligible" then why bother putting it in? lol obviously there's something there that is going to be changed a great deal. and living without points fix is not as bad as living under a zimbabwe dictator. that's a really silly thing to say. it's not worth it.
creator: Rocko
date: 2008-07-07T01:43:45-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: This is clearly a bug in renegade and should be fixed like any other bug in renegade. Westwood should have fixed it but they did not do so If westwood were still around and making patches for renegade, I am sure they would fix this bug in exactly the same way we did. As a programmer, I refuse to deliberatly leave a bug unfixed just because some players are used to how the gameplay works with the old broken code. Westwood never intended for you to get so many points for shooting a harvester with a sniper rifle or other small arms.
creator: jonwil
date: 2008-07-07T02:26:32-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: no one is saying you can't fix it instead some people are saying they'd rather not play with it fixed i watched a server i've played on for years nearly empty out since the pointmod was added if the pointmod was removed i guarantee more people would play there not everyone wants renegade changed now, six years later after they've learned and embraced it the way it was is it really fair to force it on everyone now? at least make it a serverside option
creator: liquidv2
date: 2008-07-07T03:49:35-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Our server has more players now compared with the days before we had the pointfix. But I am very sure that the pointfix has anything to do with it. Maybe you should check for other reasons why the server you're referring to has gone emty. However, ppl who leave a server due to the pointfix missed the idea of winning on renegade IMO. I can't really beliefe that westwood intended to win games on points in the first place. For me it looks more obvious that the prime goal is to win on base destruction. In that POV it seems totally unlogical to shoot a harv with a shotgunner or tanks with a sniper instead of killing the vehicles. It would also explain why the map under which is used for multiplayer training was the map that suffered most from the points bug. Without the fix it was a pure sniper/apc point whore map. Nowadays I do have some great games on this map with a quit a variaty of tactics and oportunities.
creator: Wiener
date: 2008-07-07T06:51:06-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Rocko wrote on Mon, 07 July 2008 03:43 so wat, if its "negligible" then why bother putting it in? lol obviously there's something there that is going to be changed a great deal. and living without points fix is not as bad as living under a zimbabwe dictator. that's a really silly thing to say. it's not worth it. For the 999th time, it's a negligible effect if you play the game normally. It mostly effects people abusing the bug to get more points.
creator: StealthEye
date: 2008-07-07T09:32:37-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: One reason why I would like point fix to remain server side is when I hear 'Harvester under attack' In small games I can look at the enemy teams points and can usually tell what is hitting the harvester, for example if points are going up in 1's really really fast, then it is probably an apache / orca. Different point intervals will indicate different vehicles. I know that it is ridiculous to get 500 points for killing a stank with a orca but I don't really care(once I got 2000 points because some guy kept teching his buds stank ).
creator: Jamie or NuneGa
date: 2008-07-07T15:46:14-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Quote: Different point intervals will indicate different vehicles. That's not different with points fix.
creator: Goztow
date: 2008-07-07T15:57:03-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: you can get a rough idea of what's hitting it by what points are going up... quicker they're going up, more points will be awarded, they're now directly proportionate.
creator: Spoony
date: 2008-07-07T17:06:06-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: NuneGa wrote on Mon, 07 July 2008 17:46 One reason why I would like point fix to remain server side is when I hear 'Harvester under attack' In small games I can look at the enemy teams points and can usually tell what is hitting the harvester, for example if points are going up in 1's really really fast, then it is probably an apache / orca. Different point intervals will indicate different vehicles. I know that it is ridiculous to get 500 points for killing a stank with a orca but I don't really care(once I got 2000 points because some guy kept teching his buds stank ). So basicaaly you're saying that it is perfectly normal and fair to get 2000 points of a stank, just because you're firing on it with a orca. If you where firing on it with a med, then you would've gotten WAY less points, is that fair? About as fair as going ingame with 2 accounts and have one donating the other, so you get twice the starting credits, right Nunega?
creator: EvilWhiteDragon
date: 2008-07-07T19:55:21-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: can we just please have a yes or no if installing the point fix will be optional?
creator: GrimmNL
date: 2008-07-07T20:55:24-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: GrimmNL wrote on Mon, 07 July 2008 21:55 can we just please have a yes or no if installing the point fix will be optional? If you meet a good programmer that is willing to do some hacking for you then sure.
creator: jnz
date: 2008-07-07T21:15:11-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: a simple yes or no would suffice on whether it will be optional to install points fix
creator: Rocko
date: 2008-07-07T21:34:44-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Depends on the beta testing. If we notice during beta testing that it seriously effects gameplay on say marathon servers then we might make iot configurable (depending on wether or not there might be other (better) solutions).
creator: Ghostshaw
date: 2008-07-07T21:47:09-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Ghostshaw wrote on Mon, 07 July 2008 17:47 Depends on the beta testing. If we notice during beta testing that it seriously effects gameplay on say marathon servers then we might make iot configurable (depending on wether or not there might be other (better) solutions). Like 1 point = 2 creds?
creator: Homey
date: 2008-07-07T22:02:00-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Baker wrote on Wed, 02 July 2008 11:39 I'd rather have an extremely fun game over one that makes sense. I agree with that statement
creator: Creed3020
date: 2008-07-07T22:46:43-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: On AOW servers the pointsfix makes a fun game. No more "letting the WF die and whoring w/ ramjets to win even though Nod got the field" games. FAIR. No more people whoring your tank w/ a ramjet so as a med, I give away more points than I would otherwise. FAIR. Failing to see where the unfairness or lack of fun is here. (And, points don't matter on marathon)
creator: CarrierII
date: 2008-07-07T22:54:04-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Creed3020 wrote on Mon, 07 July 2008 17:46 Baker wrote on Wed, 02 July 2008 11:39 I'd rather have an extremely fun game over one that makes sense. I agree with that statement Its more fun if its balanced. If you dont realise that, all hope is lost.
creator: Herr Surth
date: 2008-07-07T23:02:46-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Homey wrote on Tue, 08 July 2008 00:02 Ghostshaw wrote on Mon, 07 July 2008 17:47 Depends on the beta testing. If we notice during beta testing that it seriously effects gameplay on say marathon servers then we might make iot configurable (depending on wether or not there might be other (better) solutions). Like 1 point = 2 creds? Perhaps something like that, or a completely alternative way to recieve credits. But this will be discussed with the owners of marathon servers, so we know that will not pose a real problem.
creator: EvilWhiteDragon
date: 2008-07-08T08:20:30-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Goztow wrote on Wed, 02 July 2008 01:48 Westwood probably didn't know about it, otherwise they would have fixed it. This all comes down to a coding error in an alorythm, which was discovered by Stealtheye. Maybe he should show the code so people can understand what happened. Any chance that Seye would paste the code and show how easily the coding error might have been to make?
creator: bmruze
date: 2008-07-08T09:34:36-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Not exactly the code, but it at least gives you an idea... StealthEye of BlackIntel (emphasis added) It definitely is a bug, notice how it behaves differently on health than on armor as well. (You don't get many points for shooting health with those weapons). The bug affects all damage on armor with a warhead multiplier of != 1, because it is the warhead multiplier that is missing. Actually, it calculates points like this: vehicledamagemultiplier * rawdamage * warheadmultiplier / warheadmultiplier It should be: vehicledamagemultiplier * rawdamage * warheadmultiplier Because the warheadmultiplier is low for ramjets, and rawdamage (see the tables on http://www.blackintel.org/?page=projects/biatch/weaponinfo) is high, the effect of the missing multiplier is highest. Repair guns have a warheadmultiplier of 1, so those are not affected. C4 2 -> will do half of the points it should do. All other weapons are <1, therefore all those will give more points than they were supposed to. Because the multipliers are closer to 1 it will be less visible though. With the bug fixed, you always get half of the points for repairing than for damaging a vehicle, and you always (regardless of the weapon you used) get the same amount for damaging or killing a vehicle (assuming it was not repaired ofcourse). Without the bugfix, it mostly depends on the weapon you use to damage something with. More than it matters which thing you are damaging or the amount of damage you actually do.
creator: EvilWhiteDragon
date: 2008-07-08T10:00:38-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Surth wrote on Mon, 07 July 2008 19:02 Creed3020 wrote on Mon, 07 July 2008 17:46 Baker wrote on Wed, 02 July 2008 11:39 I'd rather have an extremely fun game over one that makes sense. I agree with that statement Its more fun if its balanced. If you dont realise that, all hope is lost. qft
creator: a000clown
date: 2008-07-08T12:04:18-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: How very tempted I am to [B][SIZE=50][COLOR=deeppink] this thread. However, I will refrain from doing so. Instead, let me just ask: Why is it so hard to agree to allow it to be an option? That means servers who want it, will have it. Servers who don't, won't have it. If you have a favorite server, but it has the option against what you want, then either suck it up, or play another server. Or, if you REALLY want it changed, talk to the server owners via a nicely written essay as to why you want what you want. Be sure to have supporters to back you up that play on the server regulerly. Otherwise, you're just being a douche trying to mess up a potentially good change for a server, and should go find another server.
creator: GEORGE ZIMMER
date: 2008-07-08T14:19:00-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: HARHARHAR
creator: Herr Surth
date: 2008-07-08T14:29:21-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: StealthEye of BlackIntel (emphasis added) Actually, it calculates points like this: vehicledamagemultiplier * rawdamage * warheadmultiplier / warheadmultiplier It should be: vehicledamagemultiplier * rawdamage * warheadmultiplier Not that I know anything about coding (and I am FOR the pointsfix, for the record), but I have to ask this. If you're a coder, isn't a mistake like that a little hard to make? How do you accidentally do A*B*C/C if your intention was A*B*C? Too bad nobody who was involved with Renegade from Westwood could give any input on this. At the least, it'd stop all the arguing about it.
creator: Chuck Norris
date: 2008-07-08T15:43:04-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Copy-paste of an incomplete line. It's very easy to make these kind of mistakes, and they probably didn't notice it because the damage was correct.
creator: Goztow
date: 2008-07-08T17:56:48-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Chuck Norris wrote on Tue, 08 July 2008 17:43 StealthEye of BlackIntel (emphasis added) Actually, it calculates points like this: vehicledamagemultiplier * rawdamage * warheadmultiplier / warheadmultiplier It should be: vehicledamagemultiplier * rawdamage * warheadmultiplier Not that I know anything about coding (and I am FOR the pointsfix, for the record), but I have to ask this. If you're a coder, isn't a mistake like that a little hard to make? How do you accidentally do A*B*C/C if your intention was A*B*C? Too bad nobody who was involved with Renegade from Westwood could give any input on this. At the least, it'd stop all the arguing about it. Don't forget that when you code something like this, that it looks a *little* more complicated eh So that should be one of the reasons why you can miss such thing.
creator: EvilWhiteDragon
date: 2008-07-08T20:30:21-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: you would know because you can read westwoods mind right
creator: Rocko
date: 2008-07-08T21:22:47-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Rocko wrote on Tue, 08 July 2008 16:22 you would know because you can read westwoods mind right We so totally can.
creator: saberhawk
date: 2008-07-08T21:23:37-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Not that I won't take your guys' word for it, but it does seem to me like it'd be hard to make a mistake like that still. Goztow, copy and paste makes no sene. That'd make sense for omitting something, but here something was added. The latter seems far less likely to accidentally happen. Also, surely they would notice when testing that a Ramjet gets those huge points from shooting a tank? I mean, even IF it was intended, I might be forced to say I'm against it (everything about the pointsfix is both LOGICAL and FAIR), but knowing Westwood's intentions would let me decide if it should be madatory. If it was intended, don't make it mandatory. If it was not intended, and this was indeed a mistake, then it should be fixed and made mandatory, and since this is what you guys think, I totally afree with your reluctance to make this an option. There shouldn't be two versions out there anyway. Anyway, I'm not trying to argue your finds, and I DO believe them, but I just had to get my question answered. It seemed to be like it'd be hard to make a mistake like that if it was done by professionals who likely checked it over, let alone tested it, but we know they were rushed to put the game out afterall (it wasn't even finished), and you guys are coders, so I'll take your word for it. As of now, given what I know, I think the fix should be mandatory.
creator: Chuck Norris
date: 2008-07-09T08:19:43-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Chuck Norris wrote on Wed, 09 July 2008 03:19 Not that I won't take your guys' word for it, but it does seem to me like it'd be hard to make a mistake like that still. Goztow, copy and paste makes no sene. That'd make sense for omitting something, but here something was added. The latter seems far less likely to accidentally happen. Also, surely they would notice when testing that a Ramjet gets those huge points from shooting a tank? I mean, even IF it was intended, I might be forced to say I'm against it (everything about the pointsfix is both LOGICAL and FAIR), but knowing Westwood's intentions would let me decide if it should be madatory. If it was intended, don't make it mandatory. If it was not intended, and this was indeed a mistake, then it should be fixed and made mandatory, and since this is what you guys think, I totally afree with your reluctance to make this an option. There shouldn't be two versions out there anyway. Anyway, I'm not trying to argue your finds, and I DO believe them, but I just had to get my question answered. It seemed to be like it'd be hard to make a mistake like that if it was done by professionals who likely checked it over, let alone tested it, but we know they were rushed to put the game out afterall (it wasn't even finished), and you guys are coders, so I'll take your word for it. As of now, given what I know, I think the fix should be mandatory. It's copy/paste/adapt. It's very possible that the damage code was directly copied from an RTS game of Westwood's by an intern where it may have included an additional modifying value that was just removed. WW code quality seems generally lax
creator: saberhawk
date: 2008-07-09T08:50:21-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Saberhawk wrote on Tue, 08 July 2008 23:23 Rocko wrote on Tue, 08 July 2008 16:22 you would know because you can read westwoods mind right We so totally can. Well, technically you could call the renegade engine "Westwoods mind". This because they wrote it with a certain motive. @ Chuck Norris: the multiplying and then dividing shows in my view more that it was a mistake. Otherwise you wouldn't multiply and not divide. This would be more effective, and faster to code. So, it certainly is a mistake, and the most logical error is that the divide was placed there unintentionally. Otherwise the same could've been done with less CPU work.
creator: EvilWhiteDragon
date: 2008-07-09T09:13:53-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: You will not get any closer to Westwood's mind than this, I suppose.
creator: Goztow
date: 2008-07-10T11:11:50-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Well, that does it. It clearly seems like nothing but a bug, and it's fair and logical with the pointsfix. That's just about as close to official confirmation as you'll get. I say it be made mandatory, but I think you guys already have that decided so anyway.
creator: Chuck Norris
date: 2008-07-11T01:31:21-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: ok
creator: liquidv2
date: 2008-07-11T01:37:46-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: watever nazis trying to force stuff on people
creator: Rocko
date: 2008-07-11T02:18:53-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Rocko wrote on Fri, 11 July 2008 04:18 watever nazis trying to force stuff on people the reason we're forcing it is because some people are just being gay and don't even want to consider why it's bad. A good HONEST discussion in which everyone can admit that they are wrong that is what we need to not force it...
creator: EvilWhiteDragon
date: 2008-07-11T15:03:15-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: so you're forcing it on everyone to prove that you're right about it seeming to be and acting like a bug despite the fact that people don't have a problem with it and have played with it for over 6 years you're trying to help but this might damage renegade more than help it and quicken its death overall but ok
creator: liquidv2
date: 2008-07-13T03:05:49-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: liquidv2 wrote on Sat, 12 July 2008 22:05 so you're forcing it on everyone to prove that you're right about it seeming to be and acting like a bug despite the fact that people don't have a problem with it and have played with it for over 6 years you're trying to help but this might damage renegade more than help it and quicken its death overall but ok tl;dr Seriously, you're not reading at all and your above post was too convoluted for any sort of comprehension.
creator: cmatt42
date: 2008-07-13T04:41:16-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: cmatt42 wrote on Sat, 12 July 2008 23:41 liquidv2 wrote on Sat, 12 July 2008 22:05 so you're forcing it on everyone to prove that you're right about it seeming to be and acting like a bug despite the fact that people don't have a problem with it and have played with it for over 6 years you're trying to help but this might damage renegade more than help it and quicken its death overall but ok tl;dr Seriously, you're not reading at all and your above post was too convoluted for any sort of comprehension. what do you mean you can't understand what he said? are you retarded
creator: Rocko
date: 2008-07-13T05:09:33-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Seriously, I understand both parties. It's true that it's just found its way into the silent Renegade tradition that if removed, would make gameplay noticeabley different. On the other hand, it IS a bug, and should be removed to change gameplay for the better. So basically there's three sides here. The people who don't want the points fix atall, the people who want the points fix to be the only option, and people who want it to be an optional feature that only server hosts can control. I'm the third one.
creator: GEORGE ZIMMER
date: 2008-07-13T09:01:39-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: During beta testing points fix will be mandatory. What happens after will be decided after (or maybe during) beta testing...
creator: Ghostshaw
date: 2008-07-13T09:05:56-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: I still fail to see why it has to be mandatory, if a server owner wants to keep the game how it is, let them do so. If that then raises the question of servers being calculated different as regards to the main ladder, then add a stipulation that non-points fix servers will not count towards the ladder. We will run the points fix on certain server/servers, however not on others. I support the "fix" in the right environment, and will continue to do so as I've done since the day it went beta. However if this is merely pushed down our throats, and we're told we have no choice, and to like it or lump it, I'm going to be far less supportive.
creator: Jellybe4n
date: 2008-07-13T09:24:51-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: What I say to any server owner (or player) who complains about the pointsfix (on a marathon server or otherwise) is to not complain unless you have actually PLAYED a game with the pointsfix and seen for themselves what the fix actually does (and e.g. what strategies are available to use when in a mid-game marathon server with no refinery left)
creator: jonwil
date: 2008-07-13T09:36:02-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: jonwil wrote on Sun, 13 July 2008 05:36 What I say to any server owner (or player) who complains about the pointsfix (on a marathon server or otherwise) is to not complain unless you have actually PLAYED a game with the pointsfix and seen for themselves what the fix actually does (and e.g. what strategies are available to use when in a mid-game marathon server with no refinery left) I have played on one thanks, since the day BI made made it available. We've run it as long as anyone. And I understand how to play the game just fine. I'd still like the choice (key word here) of whether I want to install it on a particular server. I don't want a group of people dictating that it will be installed, regardless of what myself, and the server regulars want. After all, logical doesn't always make things more fun, making things fair doesn't always make things fun. The purists of the game will argue until they drop dead that it makes the game more fun, and for them it may well do that, and they'll argue reputably with anyone who has their own opinion, on what makes the game fun for them. Basically, all the logic and fairness in the world could be implemented in this fix, that isn't the issue though for me, what players find fun, is what matters to me as a server owner. Like I said, I am all for the fix, I prefer it, on the right server. I just want the option when I install, that's all. If the fix is so unbelievably good you should have some faith in it, and players will make their way to a points fix server, or they will stay away, and that will tell you whether the fix is wanted or not. Just give server owners the choice, that's all I want, that's all I'm asking. Then the players too have a choice, and the number of players that join a points fix / non-points fix server will give you your answer as to whether it makes the game more fun or not. If after reading this all I get back is, "bring us an argument as to why the fix is bad" type comment, then you clearly haven't read …
creator: Jellybe4n
date: 2008-07-13T09:56:10-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: In regards to marathon servers and the point fix, please continue in the Serverowners subforum.
creator: EvilWhiteDragon
date: 2008-07-13T10:28:41-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Jellybe4n wrote on Sun, 13 July 2008 11:56 If you have so much faith in the fix, and think it will make the game so much better, then I see no reason why you wouldn't give us the option. That is because from a developer's POV, it is a very bad practice to leave bugs unfixed. It leads to sloppy code and bad programming. Like I said before, the marathon thing is the only real reason I have heard for not using the points fix. I do think however that there is probably a more fair and just as fun solution to that problem without having the points fix.
creator: StealthEye
date: 2008-07-13T12:34:36-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Preference is a real reason.
creator: Homey
date: 2008-07-13T14:13:26-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Jellybe4n wrote on Sun, 13 July 2008 04:24 I still fail to see why it has to be mandatory, if a server owner wants to keep the game how it is, let them do so. If that then raises the question of servers being calculated different as regards to the main ladder, then add a stipulation that non-points fix servers will not count towards the ladder. This is perfectly reasonable.
creator: cmatt42
date: 2008-07-13T16:09:51-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
creator: liquidv2
date: 2008-07-13T16:43:25-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: liquidv2 wrote on Sun, 13 July 2008 12:43
creator: T0RN
date: 2008-07-13T17:25:44-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Jellybe4n wrote on Sun, 13 July 2008 04:24 If that then raises the question of servers being calculated different as regards to the main ladder, then add a stipulation that non-points fix servers will not count towards the ladder. that's a given.
creator: Spoony
date: 2008-07-13T17:34:56-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Then I see no reason what so ever to not make it an option on installing the patch. If a server accepts that their results do not effect the WOL ladder, then that server should be allowed to do so. They are not effecting anyone elses play, they are not gaining an advantage over players on other servers, as they will not be competing with them, simple as that.
creator: Jellybe4n
date: 2008-07-13T17:39:12-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Considering the current point fix is server side, I suppose the new one would also be?
creator: Goztow
date: 2008-07-13T18:09:26-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: just make a pointsunfix mod for those who dont like it O.o
creator: Herr Surth
date: 2008-07-13T18:17:16-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: ^ that would seem the best idea imho. make the pointsfix an automatic update, becoming the "official" renegade (as it clearly should) - but if people really want it, also release an unofficial "pointsbug" you can download, which also makes the server unladdered (if that's possible)
creator: Spoony
date: 2008-07-13T19:26:27-00:00

Re: in regard to the points fix
type: item
description: Do it whichever way floats your boat, call it whatever you want to amongst your little team. Just give server owners an option, and not back them into a corner where they have to install something they really don't want in order to benefit the rest of the patch. Which is effectively what will happen on some servers.
creator: Jellybe4n
date: 2008-07-13T19:31:41-00:00