Command and Conquer: Renegade Official Forums - RDF feed
C&C: Renegade --> Dying since 2003™, resurrected in 2024!
I am presenting this in two versions. The short version for those of you with ADD, and the long version for those of you who want to debate about the subject and/or know all the gory details. SHORT VERSION BlackIntel discovered a bug in the points calculation code while doing research for BIATCH. Fixing this bug results in a better-balanced gameplay by (most noticeably) removing the disproportionate point gains you would get from doing negligible damage to heavy-armored units. This points fix has been running on a few servers, such as Jelly (AOW1), n00bstories, SpoonyServ, and BlackIntel for roughly 2 months. The Ladder Team is confident that this fix provides a more balanced and more fun game experience for the majority of players. We also feel that this is a crucial component to balancing the ladder calculations and will therefore be requiring the use of this fix for servers that wish to participate in the ladder. LONG VERSION (under spoiler) (if you wish to debate this subject, we INSIST that you become familiar with these facts and figures) Click here to read the LONG VERSION StealthEye of BlackIntel (emphasis added) It definitely is a bug, notice how it behaves differently on health than on armor as well. (You don't get many points for shooting health with those weapons). The bug affects all damage on armor with a warhead multiplier of != 1, because it is the warhead multiplier that is missing. Actually, it calculates points like this: vehicledamagemultiplier * rawdamage * warheadmultiplier / warheadmultiplier It should be: vehicledamagemultiplier * rawdamage * warheadmultiplier Because the warheadmultiplier is low for ramjets, and rawdamage (see the tables on http://www.blackintel.org/?page=projects/biatch/weaponinfo) is high, the effect of the missing multiplier is highest. Repair guns have a warheadmultiplier of 1, so those are not affected. C4 2 -> will do half of the points it should do. All other weapons are <1, therefore all those will give more points than they were supposed to. Because the multipliers are closer to 1 it will be less visible though. With the bug fixed, you always get half of the points for repairing than for damaging a vehicle, and you always (regardless of the weapon you used) get the same amount for damaging or killing a vehicle (assuming it was not repaired ofcourse). Without the bugfix, it mostly depends on the weapon you use to damage something with. More than it matters which thing you are damaging or the amount of damage you actually do. Spoony has made the following observations: Letting the WF die isn't valid anymore. On some maps - notably Field, but to a lesser extent Walls Flying and Islands, GDI could turn a losing situation into an advantage by purposely letting their Weapons Factory die. It then became an uphill struggle for Nod, to the point where Nod would still lose despite having a better team. The only reason this worked at all was the points ramjets gained against tanks, something which has always been a bug and something nobody has been able to logically justify why it should happen at all. The points fix means that letting certain buildings die is no longer the clear advantage it used to be, which helps balance these maps. Gaining an advantage by letting buildings die is clearly wrong, and the fact it only worked because of a bug Westwood didn't intend goes to show it's better off fixed. One person in a vehicle isn't teamhampering. Often, many players would dissuade their teammates from using tanks because they'd feed huge points to enemy ramjets (again, something that shouldn't happen). The points fix wipes this problem clean - one new player buying a mammoth or stank or flame tank is no longer a hindrance to their team, even if they don't achieve much with it. People have to use ramjets for stuff they're meant to do (light vehicles and infantry) instead of getting massive points doing something they're meant to useless for. More aggressive play is generally more beneficial. For example, on Field, tanks can attack enemy tanks from relative safety close to their base entrance, as opposed to moving all the way up to attack enemy buildings. Taking this higher risk is now worth relatively higher rewards. Spoony has noted no detrimental effects whatsoever to clan games or 1v1's. On the following chart, "Previous points per shot" value is based on shots on the armour wth a PIC/Rave/havoc/sakura. "Current points per shot" is based on PIC/RAVE doing 80 real damage on a vehicle. For vehicles with light armour it might deal more damage and thus get more points. Object name Damage points Previous points per shot Current points per shot CnC_GDI_Mammoth_Tank 0.06 12 4.8 CnC_Nod_Harvester 0.04 8 3.2 CnC_GDI_Harvester 0.04 8 3.2 CnC_Nod_Apache 0.15 30 12 CnC_GDI_Orca 0.15 30 12 CnC_Nod_Stealth_Tank 0.11 22 8.8 CnC_GDI_Medium_Tank 0.05 10 4 CnC_Nod_Flame_Tank 0.05 10 4 CnC_Nod_Transport 0.09 18 7.2 CnC_GDI_Transport 0.09 18 7.2 CnC_Nod_Light_Tank 0.05 10 4 CnC_Nod_APC 0.04 8 3.2 CnC_GDI_APC 0.04 8 3.2 CnC_GDI_MRLS 0.06 12 4.8 CnC_Nod_Mobile_Artillery 0.06 12 4.8 CnC_GDI_Humm-vee 0.06 12 4.8 CnC_Nod_Buggy 0.06 12 4.8 The following chart details "Damage points" (point gain per 1 damage dealt), "Death points" (bonus for causing the final death), "Total death points" (points gained for causing damage from start to finish): Object name Damage points Death points Total death points CnC_GDI_Mammoth_Tank 0.06 75 147 CnC_Nod_Harvester 0.04 50 98 CnC_GDI_Harvester 0.04 50 98 CnC_Nod_Apache 0.15 45 90 CnC_GDI_Orca 0.15 45 90 CnC_Nod_Stealth_Tank 0.11 45 89 CnC_GDI_Medium_Tank 0.05 40 80 CnC_Nod_Flame_Tank 0.05 40 80 CnC_Nod_Transport 0.09 35 71 CnC_GDI_Transport 0.09 35 71 CnC_Nod_Light_Tank 0.05 30 60 CnC_Nod_APC 0.04 25 49 CnC_GDI_APC 0.04 25 49 CnC_GDI_MRLS 0.06 23 46.5 CnC_Nod_Mobile_Artillery 0.06 23 46.5 CnC_GDI_Humm-vee 0.06 18 35.5 CnC_Nod_Buggy 0.06 15 30 Some people will come back and say that you get "no points" for shooting tanks. These charts prove that is NOT the case. Spoony has also discovered that if you look at the "Total Death Points" for vehicles and round them to the nearest multiple of 5, then compare them to the cost of the vehicle, you get this: Quote: syntax: vehicle/total points/cost Mammoth Tank: 150/1500 Harvester: 100/not applicable Apache/Orca: 90/900 Stealth Tank: 90/900 Medium Tank: 80/800 Flame Tank: 80/800 Chinook: 70/700 Light Tank: 60/600 APC: 50/500 MRLS: 45/450 Artillery: 45/450 Hummvee: 35/350 Buggy: 30/300 Many people are already aware that for infantry, the total points gained for start-to-finish death is 10% of the cost of the unit. (exception: free infantry = 3 points) This also proves that the previous point calculation was definitely a bug. What happens on a server with the fix installed? Actual damage is not affected at all. What changes is points. Points gained by attacking green-health vehicles are calculated the way Westwood intended them to be, the way they currently are against yellow/red health vehicles. Therefore, all weapons gain points which are directly proportional to the amount of damage they're doing. Examples of how this will fix the game: Ramjets, 500 snipers, Auto rifles, shotguns and pistols will get practically nothing for attacking vehicles they don't damage (i.e. heavy armoured tanks) Ramjets, 500 snipers, Auto rifles, shotguns, pistols, APCs, humvees/buggies, and orca/apache machineguns get the right points for attacking light armoured vehicles - in other words, the same points a tank would get for doing the same amount of damage APCs, humvees/buggies, and orca/apache machineguns get the right points for attacking heavy armoured vehicles - in other words, an apache or an APC gets the same points for killing a harvester that a tank would get for killing a harvester C4 gets somewhat more points for attacking vehicles than they do now, roughly double. Tanks get somewhat less points for attacking green-health vehicles than they do now - they get what they're supposed to get, which is what they currently get against yellow/red health vehicles. In a nutshell, it no longer matters what weapon is used to kill, for example, a harvester - the total points gain is constant whether it is destroyed by infantry C4, a tank, an APC or an Apache. Other observations seen: A team who loses the field early has a much better chance of getting it back, whereas before the team who took the field early almost always held it. Also, in most cases, the points difference is not as vast as it was before, meaning the team that got the field back has a real chance of coming back to win. Mammoths are actually worth 1500 points and people who are new to the game can buy one without hurting their team as much Failed Stealth Tank rushes don't give GDI nearly as many points as it used to. The result of this is that you aren't stuck trying these rushes all game because you are so behind on points that base destruction is your only chance to win. Closer scores overall make for more exciting and fun games rather than 30+ minutes of domination and boredom for the losing team. New players will find that: [list type=square] [*]If they save up for a mammoth, stank, or flamer thinking they'll devastate the enemy team single-handedly, or if they fix the Weapons Factory in the belief that keeping it alive will help the team, they don't get barraged with insults by their teammates anymore. [*]They're no longer fooled by the points bug into thinking that shooting heavy tanks with an automatic rifle is helping their team's situation [/spoiler] Remember, POINTS, NOT DAMAGE, are the only thing affected by this fix!
Very nice work. The Orca's/Apache's machine guns can get you an incredible amount of points when shooting at vehicles. Not that I did not enjoy those nice points...but fair gameplay FTW! P.S. I read the whole thing!
Why now? Many servers (including us) have already been through this shit storm since we started running this months ago. Why are we visiting it again now?
Crimson, You gave us ADD'ers a bad name. ;(
luv2pb wrote on Sun, 23 September 2007 21:19 Why now? Many servers (including us) have already been through this shit storm since we started running this months ago. Why are we visiting it again now? Because the people who play in servers that are not running the points fix need to know about it, too.
Ryu wrote on Mon, 24 September 2007 00:46 Crimson, You gave us ADD'ers a bad name. ;(
Has it now been officially released then or have I missed that?
Things I won't miss: * "snipers" pecking away at my tank (IMO they shouldn't do any damage to tanks whatsoever, but at least now they don't get points). * Shotgunners blasting the harvester for early points * Mammy = bullet magnet
It has not been officially released. It will be part of a patch/DLL/whatever that will make it a requirement to be on the official ladder. Servers are still welcome to not use the fix, but those games will not count towards their ladder rank.
*info* This patch should not be compatible with Resurrection, which already fixed the bug anyway.
*info* All servers running Resurrection would thereby be unladdered.
basically you made GDI unstobable if you kno how to drive a med.. because the points fix is all about owning the other tanks and hitting the buildings. And GDI Med if you can drive you can rape many tanks.. ltanks get raped by meds..so do artys + stanks do.. But for public servs youve made it more balanced. only map where nod is better now is Field.
Not really, because it just effects the way points are given, it doesnt mean nod is gonna own in field because of this, this just balances the poitns so you dont get more than you should.
I Created a topic about it on the gamerz0ne/fnfall server forums, hoping to get it introduced. This also means that Snipers mostly will not get MVP's anymore and the game will be more as --> Getting points with Vehicles, and the effectivness of what your weapon can do (Harming light vechs with ramjet, Heavy with railgun)? Also, Enforcing teams with only a barracks by getting more pics/ravs then havocs as point whoring with ramjets wont work anymore in points?
In a nutshell, you get the points for the damage you're doing, not what you're using to do the damage. Significantly, buildings are worth more than tanks and infantry are, which rewards offensive play and successful offensives. For example, on Field you it's now much more worthwhile to move further up and hit buildings, rather than simply sitting at your base entrance and hitting enemy tanks. Moving up is riskier, therefore more skill is involved. It works out nicely. SoQReaL wrote on Mon, 24 September 2007 06:37 basically you made GDI unstobable if you kno how to drive a med.. because the points fix is all about owning the other tanks and hitting the buildings. And GDI Med if you can drive you can rape many tanks.. ltanks get raped by meds..so do artys + stanks do.. But for public servs youve made it more balanced. only map where nod is better now is Field. and under, and wallsfly. The other maps are fair anyway... those three weren't, and now they are. as for meds owning all, if anything the pointsfix addresses it, rather than making it worse. Look at Field... GDI didn't even need to leave their half of the map to win it before. Now they do. Quote: Also, Enforcing teams with only a barracks by getting more pics/ravs then havocs as point whoring with ramjets wont work anymore in points? Havocs are still powerful against light vehicles, and they still get respectable points for doing so. They get less than they did, however (the points they did get was frankly ridiculous) and they get diddly squat against heavy armour, which is absolutely logical and definitely improves gameplay.
I took the advantage of this point bug on mesa when I was Nod. Since the GDI harvy doesn't stay very long like the Nod harvy, I would purposely buy a shotty throw my C4 just shoot at it to gain points so I could get a early tech/arty to defend against any early APC rushes. I don't see this fix as a good thing or a bad thing. Im mainly in a tank and I don't notice the points going up, I just kill the easist target.
Well, first I've heard about it and it sounds total shite to be honest. This sounds like ego boosting, e-penis crap bullshit aswell. You should get points for shooting anything with whatever weapon or vehicle you are using.
IronWarrior wrote on Mon, 24 September 2007 15:59 Well, first I've heard about it and it sounds total shite to be honest. This sounds like ego boosting, e-penis crap bullshit to be honest. You should get points for shooting anything with whatever weapon or vehicle you are using. And you do but what they're saying is you're getting far too many points shooting a mammy with a ramjet when you aren't doing fuck all damage.
Caveman wrote on Mon, 24 September 2007 10:01 IronWarrior wrote on Mon, 24 September 2007 15:59 Well, first I've heard about it and it sounds total shite to be honest. This sounds like ego boosting, e-penis crap bullshit to be honest. You should get points for shooting anything with whatever weapon or vehicle you are using. And you do but what they're saying is you're getting far too many points shooting a mammy with a ramjet when you aren't doing fuck all damage. That's how Renegade has always been, who would dare to go against Westwood wishs? And, if a player is shooting a tank with a ramjet, sniper, whatever, then he is a fucking n00b, aswell as being an useless bag of wank juice who should be doing something more productive like killing the enemys building instead of being a point whore.
IronWarrior wrote on Mon, 24 September 2007 09:59 Well, first I've heard about it and it sounds total shite to be honest. This sounds like ego boosting, e-penis crap bullshit aswell. You should get points for shooting anything with whatever weapon or vehicle you are using. I don't follow you. For me to say you should get points based directly on the damage you're dishing out, rather than - for example - a ramjet or auto rifle getting the same points off a harvester as a flame tank gets off a building - is "total shite" and "ego boosting, e-penis crap bullshit"? I see it as common sense, a vast improvement in game balance, and a closer game experience to what Westwood intended... each to our own, I suppose. Caveman wrote I took the advantage of this point bug on mesa when I was Nod. Since the GDI harvy doesn't stay very long like the Nod harvy, I would purposely buy a shotty throw my C4 just shoot at it to gain points so I could get a early tech/arty to defend against any early APC rushes. tip: in situations like the harv fight, forget how many points you're getting and just focus your attention on killing their harv and saving yours. If you genuinely help in the effort to kill their harvester (which DOESN'T mean throwing one c4 - it means rushing it three times with an engineer), chances are you'll kill theirs and save yours... that's 300 or 600 credit variance, depending on how you look at it mathematically. The best thing about the points fix is new players aren't suckered into bad habits like the habit you've just described. Shooting heavy armour with weapons that don't damage it, just to get points and money, is a bad habit. You aren't helping your team's situation.
IronWarrior wrote on Mon, 24 September 2007 10:16 That's how Renegade has always been, who would dare to go against Westwood wishs? You're right about one thing: the "I don't get it" emoticon. Renegade with the points bug is not what Westwood wanted. Renegade with the points fix is what Westwood wanted. IronWarrior wrote on Mon, 24 September 2007 10:16 And, if a player is shooting a tank with a ramjet, sniper, whatever, then he is a fucking n00b, aswell as being an useless bag of wank juice who should be doing something more productive like killing the enemys building instead of being a point whore. Yes, he is, and he shouldn't affect the scores as conclusively as he did with the bugged points system.
This can only ever be a good thing.
so..... Download link please? Also... what file would this be modifing?
Technically speaking you are modifying server.exe(aka it will be a DLL). -Ghost-
If it modifies scripts.dll then I cant use it. I would like to add this because of once in a while, you take a break from renegade, then nubs that do nothing but point whore are #1, this would slightly help with the problem.This would make it so, you get points for what you do, not being nub.
If you're going to debate this, please read the bit under the spoiler tag. It's obvious that you did not or you would know that: 1) Points awarded are now DIRECTLY proportional to the amount of damage you do (40 points of damage gets you the same amount of points no matter what weapon you use to deal it - this is not the case when the server is not patched) 2) There is overwhelming, indisputable evidence that this is EXACTLY what Westwood intended but failed to do, which is why it is called a "bug fix" rather than a "change", "enhancement", or "mod".
Nightma12 wrote on Mon, 24 September 2007 17:29 so..... Download link please? Also... what file would this be modifing? Link will be posted as soon as the ladder team is ready with the other important things of the ladder. The file it would be modifying would probably be XWIS.dll, blackintel's xwis implementation which makes WOLAPI a thing of the past, and also auto-reconnects to XWIS.
Spoony wrote on Mon, 24 September 2007 16:19 Caveman wrote I took the advantage of this point bug on mesa when I was Nod. Since the GDI harvy doesn't stay very long like the Nod harvy, I would purposely buy a shotty throw my C4 just shoot at it to gain points so I could get a early tech/arty to defend against any early APC rushes. tip: in situations like the harv fight, forget how many points you're getting and just focus your attention on killing their harv and saving yours. If you genuinely help in the effort to kill their harvester (which DOESN'T mean throwing one c4 - it means rushing it three times with an engineer), chances are you'll kill theirs and save yours... that's 300 or 600 credit variance, depending on how you look at it mathematically. The best thing about the points fix is new players aren't suckered into bad habits like the habit you've just described. Shooting heavy armour with weapons that don't damage it, just to get points and money, is a bad habit. You aren't helping your team's situation. This may be true but you do not always get people on a public server willing to get an engi and throw c4 etc...
Caveman wrote on Mon, 24 September 2007 12:09 This may be true but you do not always get people on a public server willing to get an engi and throw c4 etc... You will once the points fix is more widespread and they realise that shooting the harvester with their machinegun isn't anywhere near the best thing they could be doing at the time, as opposed to being tricked by the current points system bug into thinking they're doing something useful.
Spoony wrote on Mon, 24 September 2007 20:11 Caveman wrote on Mon, 24 September 2007 12:09 This may be true but you do not always get people on a public server willing to get an engi and throw c4 etc... You will once the points fix is more widespread and they realise that shooting the harvester with their machinegun isn't anywhere near the best thing they could be doing at the time, as opposed to being tricked by the current points system bug into thinking they're doing something useful. Ok, can you honestly say that you believe that will happen? You honestly think once most of the servers get this fix that people will go "Hmm I dont get points for shooting harv with my rifle, I better start team playing instead"?
Caveman wrote on Mon, 24 September 2007 21:10 Spoony wrote on Mon, 24 September 2007 20:11 Caveman wrote on Mon, 24 September 2007 12:09 This may be true but you do not always get people on a public server willing to get an engi and throw c4 etc... You will once the points fix is more widespread and they realise that shooting the harvester with their machinegun isn't anywhere near the best thing they could be doing at the time, as opposed to being tricked by the current points system bug into thinking they're doing something useful. Ok, can you honestly say that you believe that will happen? You honestly think once most of the servers get this fix that people will go "Hmm I dont get points for shooting harv with my rifle, I better start team playing instead"? No, but they might buy something like a rocket launcher, and then fire it at the harv. Anyone can work out that the aim is to make points, and if they don't make points doing one thing, they'll try another thing to make points.
CarrierII wrote on Mon, 24 September 2007 21:29 Caveman wrote on Mon, 24 September 2007 21:10 Spoony wrote on Mon, 24 September 2007 20:11 Caveman wrote on Mon, 24 September 2007 12:09 This may be true but you do not always get people on a public server willing to get an engi and throw c4 etc... You will once the points fix is more widespread and they realise that shooting the harvester with their machinegun isn't anywhere near the best thing they could be doing at the time, as opposed to being tricked by the current points system bug into thinking they're doing something useful. Ok, can you honestly say that you believe that will happen? You honestly think once most of the servers get this fix that people will go "Hmm I dont get points for shooting harv with my rifle, I better start team playing instead"? No, but they might buy something like a rocket launcher, and then fire it at the harv. Anyone can work out that the aim is to make points, and if they don't make points doing one thing, they'll try another thing to make points. Yes but generally you don't have enough credits at the start of the game to buy a rocket soldier. As I was trying to say, the only time I really abused the points is at the start when I need them to get a early med/arty/tech. Once the game gets going im generally killing the tanks or hitting buildings. Edit: I just wanted to add that I think the point fix works best when its on a ClanWar server. It will stop one clan from getting a havoc and gaining points to win. But its a different story in public servers when everyone isn't willing to team play.
Or they'll take thier cue from other players, who would be using Engis, or even 'naders etc.
I am glad that this is getting fixed. Considering that Resurrection already contains a fix for this, will Resurrection servers be allowed onto the BHS ladder or will the existing fix in Resurrection be deprecated by the xwis.dll version?
Dutch Neon wrote on Mon, 24 September 2007 10:57 This also means that Snipers mostly will not get MVP's anymore Snipers can still get MVP quite easily, it's just morons who shoot tanks with sniper rifles and do no damage that won't be getting MVP.
LOL but thats how probably more than half of the "MVP Elite" snipers get their points. If you don't believe me, drive a Mammy out of the base and watch how many Sakuras whore on it...then they brag about their "skill"...hah.
...AND FIVE YEARS LATER THIS SMALL BUG GETS FIXED!
Viking wrote on Mon, 24 September 2007 17:31 ...AND FIVE YEARS LATER THIS SMALL BUG GETS FIXED! Guess what, they're not Westwood, nor could Westwood find and fix this bug in time. Better than no fix at all.
I have read this entire thread and then resigned up because my account has long since expired through time. One point I have not noticed being discussed is the situation that skimming points off of machine gun type weapons and making it based on actual damage will make the refinery extremely valuable. Think about it. The main way you get cash from NO INCOME, is getting a minigunner and shooting heavy vehicles. With this gone the game would be an entirely money based war. Take out the ref first then camp with apc's which the enemy team now gets a total of 100? credits at 2 credits a point. On a no defense map after the ref dies, it's basically playtime for the team with a refinery. ( I am aware these are incorrect and not exact values ) If this does get forced into the ladder, It should probably only apply to the sniper scales to make them do what snipers are meant to do. Kill infantry.
Caveman wrote on Mon, 24 September 2007 15:10 Ok, can you honestly say that you believe that will happen? You honestly think once most of the servers get this fix that people will go "Hmm I dont get points for shooting harv with my rifle, I better start team playing instead"? If they are even remotely observant to what's going on in regard to the scores, yes. Silent_Paws wrote have read this entire thread and then resigned up because my account has long since expired through time. One point I have not noticed being discussed is the situation that skimming points off of machine gun type weapons and making it based on actual damage will make the refinery extremely valuable. Think about it. The main way you get cash from NO INCOME, is getting a minigunner and shooting heavy vehicles. With this gone the game would be an entirely money based war. Take out the ref first then camp with apc's which the enemy team now gets a total of 100? credits at 2 credits a point. On a no defense map after the ref dies, it's basically playtime for the team with a refinery. ( I am aware these are incorrect and not exact values ) There's nothing bad about the scenario you're describing. You SHOULD NOT get points or money for attacking something you don't damage. Aside from anything else, you get more money for fixing buildings (assuming they're under attack by anything with some firepower) than you would shooting most vehicles with a soldier. If you can't or won't do that, here's a crazy thought: instead of ineffectually shooting the enemy tank that's raping your base with your automatic rifle, try to kill it with a flamethrower, grenadier or engi, or heal your teammates in their efforts to do so. Sure, you probably won't take it out by yourself, but you can help your team's situation rather than standing there like a monkey unloading clip after clip at something you are doing negligible damage to while your base is being bulldozed. Losing your refinery SHOULD cripple your economy. If it didn't, what the hell would be the point killing the enemy's refinery?
Spoony wrote on Tue, 25 September 2007 08:23 Caveman wrote on Mon, 24 September 2007 15:10 Ok, can you honestly say that you believe that will happen? You honestly think once most of the servers get this fix that people will go "Hmm I dont get points for shooting harv with my rifle, I better start team playing instead"? If they are even remotely observant to what's going on in regard to the scores, yes. You sure do have alot of faith in people that you obvously do not know. If someone is out to point whore, they'll find another way to do it. Some people just like being pricks. This fix isn't going to change them.
Caveman wrote on Tue, 25 September 2007 10:15 Spoony wrote on Tue, 25 September 2007 08:23 Caveman wrote on Mon, 24 September 2007 15:10 Ok, can you honestly say that you believe that will happen? You honestly think once most of the servers get this fix that people will go "Hmm I dont get points for shooting harv with my rifle, I better start team playing instead"? If they are even remotely observant to what's going on in regard to the scores, yes. You sure do have alot of faith in people that you obvously do not know. If someone is out to point whore, they'll find another way to do it. Some people just like being pricks. This fix isn't going to change them. It is, the only way to really whore now ( on the BI servers and the otehrs running it) is to attack buildings. Oh, wait, that's a good thing. You want your team to attack buildings. And believe me when I say I have seen some players behaviour change, in a good way. As in, not sniper whoring vehicles and stuff. Btw, Cavemen, have yu read the full story? Then you should have noticed that with an machine gun, you get more points then attacking with a med for example. This does NOT make sense. Why would you get more points with the weapon you are totally useless with?
spoony exactly.. if you can drive a fucking med tank decent youre gona rape every map.. Simple because meds hittin every shot> any other tank. how the fuck was it unfair when both sides could get massive points.. you say youve made it "fairer" like fuck.. maybe on a couple of maps.
the only thing left to fix with the point system now, is getting points for destroying a vehicle after the opponent has jumped out. In clanwars, its a common thing to jump out of your vehicle right before it gets blown up, to avoid giving the opponents the points they deserve for destroying it. This new point fix depends on those points to make the game more balanced between tank fights and attacking buildings. Maybe thats why westwood left the point flaw in in the first place?
If they're going to fix the jump out of your vehicle thing, you might aswell jump out anyway, use one of your remotes (or one that you placed on it when you bought it) and blow it up yourself.
Dethdeath wrote on Tue, 25 September 2007 16:40 If they're going to fix the jump out of your vehicle thing, you might aswell jump out anyway, use one of your remotes (or one that you placed on it when you bought it) and blow it up yourself. Should be easy to solve: Once the vehicle is left, it does not turn neutral but friendly fire is allowed (without removing score).
Um, I dont really agree with this "points fix" idea, but it does balance out public server gameplay (in bigger servers).My concern: -Smaller servers (which includes clanwars) -A few gameplay issuses For those of you who havent played with it, you wouldnt think it makes a big differene right? Wrong. Some Maps which where completely lobsided for 1 team, are now even, BUT some just go completely the other way. Again, less noticable in bigger servers, smaller servers will take the but of it. I also dont agree with deny access to the beta ladder if you don't agree with the points fix, and dont install it on your server..... This is not just some random decision to be made, nor to be immediatly forced upon us right away, weight the cons, weight the pros, then base a decision on what the community thinks. The only real way I see this working, is if EVERYONE agrees to this, and not 1 person disagrees, and it becomes the new norm. If this doesn't happen, a reoccurance of what happened @ cw.cc will happen.
Caveman wrote on Tue, 25 September 2007 01:15 Spoony wrote on Tue, 25 September 2007 08:23 Caveman wrote on Mon, 24 September 2007 15:10 Ok, can you honestly say that you believe that will happen? You honestly think once most of the servers get this fix that people will go "Hmm I dont get points for shooting harv with my rifle, I better start team playing instead"? If they are even remotely observant to what's going on in regard to the scores, yes. You sure do have alot of faith in people that you obvously do not know. If someone is out to point whore, they'll find another way to do it. Some people just like being pricks. This fix isn't going to change them. People started doing the current lame tactics because of points, when they discover it doesn't work, they'll stop and find something else. With the points fix in place, they can really only get points for doing things that help the team. So if they want to be point whore, they'll have to help their team in order to get points. I don't see a downside.
trooprm02 wrote on Tue, 25 September 2007 09:22 This is not just some random decision to be made, nor to be immediatly forced upon us right away, weight the cons, weight the pros, then base a decision on what the community thinks. The only real way I see this working, is if EVERYONE agrees to this, and not 1 person disagrees, and it becomes the new norm. If this doesn't happen, a reoccurance of what happened @ cw.cc will happen. We're not doing that. We have been evaluating the fix for over 2 months now (read the first post, duh)... and we're warning you about this fix well in advance of it being required.
trooprm02 wrote on Tue, 25 September 2007 12:22 The only real way I see this working, is if EVERYONE agrees to this, and not 1 person disagrees, and it becomes the new norm. If this doesn't happen, a reoccurance of what happened @ cw.cc will happen. Why do you talk about crap that you know nothing about?
You can still hold your left mouse button not even looking at your monitor and get loads of points, even with the fix.
Caveman wrote on Tue, 25 September 2007 04:15 You sure do have alot of faith in people that you obvously do not know. If someone is out to point whore, they'll find another way to do it. Some people just like being pricks. This fix isn't going to change them. What are you talking about? What is this "point whore" crap? I'm saying what I've been saying for ages: you should not get points for attacking things you don't damage. What is the problem with getting points for attacking things you do damage? For roshambo: if someone's hitting a building with an arty, MRLS, whatever, are you aware it takes one person to stop them?
Spoony wrote on Tue, 25 September 2007 19:32 Caveman wrote on Tue, 25 September 2007 04:15 You sure do have alot of faith in people that you obvously do not know. If someone is out to point whore, they'll find another way to do it. Some people just like being pricks. This fix isn't going to change them. What are you talking about? What is this "point whore" crap? I'm saying what I've been saying for ages: you should not get points for attacking things you don't damage. What is the problem with getting points for attacking things you do damage? For roshambo: if someone's hitting a building with an arty, MRLS, whatever, are you aware it takes one person to stop them? I agree with you..Re-read my posts. I said that people shouldn't get points for doing no damage. But having this on a public server isn't as effective as a CW server because not everyone wants to play as a team. In a public server people will choose to shoot the harv with a sak to get points (Point whoring) if they can't do it via sak's they'll just find another way to be useless. Like spend the whole map snipering basic inf in the tunnels. Which is what im trying to get at... If people want to play like a prick they will find a way to do it. If they can't they'll just goto a server without the fix.
Caveman wrote on Tue, 25 September 2007 20:09 ... If they can't they'll just goto a server without the fix. Then all the good players go into a server with the fix and we're all happy!
CarrierII wrote on Tue, 25 September 2007 14:21 Caveman wrote on Tue, 25 September 2007 20:09 ... If they can't they'll just goto a server without the fix. Then all the good players go into a server with the fix and we're all happy! LESS NOOBS FTW!
Caveman wrote on Tue, 25 September 2007 14:09 I agree with you..Re-read my posts. I said that people shouldn't get points for doing no damage. But having this on a public server isn't as effective as a CW server because not everyone wants to play as a team. In a public server people will choose to shoot the harv with a sak to get points (Point whoring) if they can't do it via sak's they'll just find another way to be useless. Like spend the whole map snipering basic inf in the tunnels. Which is what im trying to get at... That's not what you said... you said people will find another way to "point whore", With the points fix, you can only get points for doing something useful. If what you're trying to say is people will intentionally try to get points whether they're helping the team or not, the points fix is a big step forward in getting them to help the team (whether they're consciously trying to or not). If what you're saying is people will intentionally "find a way to be useless", then I really don't know what to say to you. Caveman wrote on Tue, 25 September 2007 14:09 If people want to play like a prick they will find a way to do it. If they can't they'll just goto a server without the fix. Cool, everybody wins
Ok let me explain this abit better, I think I have confused people. I fully agree that people shouldn't get mass points for doing fuck all damage, like I did on mesa when I was Nod. But i'm mainly talking about people that will just do it for the entire game, be it a havoc, shotty or whatever. If said people join a server with the fix and get a havoc and just hit the harv and realize that they aren't getting any points, I really can't see them going.. Fuck this I better get a tech/hotty and repair my teams tanks, or I think i'll get a med and join the battlefield. I can see them refilling and going into the tunnels and killing basic inf all day doing nothing for the team or I could see them leaving the server because they can't whore and coming to a server that doesn't have the fix and turning it into a server that just has noobs. I play on a server that doesn't have the fix, this isn't by choice, I played there before this fix was released and I intend to keep playing there. I don't want to see it full of noobs because they can't go anywhere else. This is why I think it should only be put on clanwar servers so if one clan is losing they can't just snipe the harv or w/e to win by points. I will say what I said to EWD on msn this morning. The fix is great but I think its too late to try and force it on everyone. (If you don't run it you can't use the ladder) If this was released a few year ago then it would have been ok. Not that I don't appreciate whats been done, so please don't take offense to that statement.
Wow, I haven't played Renegade for quite a while and I've completely missed this. I wish somebody could have found a way to do this a long time ago. That bug has been the main thing spoiling an otherwise brilliant multiplayer game. Bravo for having the balls to force this on the ladder, because this is one case of there being no justifiable reason for keeping it the way it was.
THey don't intend to be useless. What the game tells them via thier disproportionately high score is that they're being helpful, when in reality they aren't. With the fix, they will notice their score isn't going up and do one of these things: Ask why "My score isn't going up" - (To which the reply should be something like "Try using an engi or a nader / flamethrower to attack the harv" or similar - the number of stupid, rude replies to newbs probably put as many people off this game as the number who currently play it... I'm digressing) Look at what they can buy, and realise (through common sense, or just a simple knowledge that "Rockets > Tanks"), then buy a rocket soldier, and do something useful (Attack the harvester, which gives your team points and potentially limits the other side's credits) Think the game is broken and quit. (lol) Trust me, they will try something different. Everyone knows that the aim of just about every game is to make points. If they don't make points one way, they'll try another. If they cannot work it out, they will look at what other people are doing, or ask. Only a very sad pointwhoring individual would actually leave. Yes, some people would just snipe all day. Is that any different from now? No, except now, the snipers (tank snipers) don't make the score stupidly unfair. Or maybe even... READ THE DAMN MANUAL, or try the "multiplayer practice" element before trying online. I did, who else did? Anyway... I play on Jelly AOW1, and I noticed no difference to my typical end-of-game scores - Why? because I always used tanks and techs/hotties, because I knew that it was pointless to use havocs/saks on tanks, because I wasn't REALLY HELPING, sure I was making points (Which a newcomer would percieve as useful) but I sure as hell wasn't making that med explode... I have also seen (before this fix) games on Jelly AOW1 have thier otherwise certain (read - fair) outcome changed by this stupid bug. (Field - GDI lost everything save rax. Ten people buy havocs and tank snipes. Nod can't get the rax down, but every attempt gives too many points away. GDI win by high score, when they were, theoretically, the worse team for losing all those structures.) I've been on both sides of this exploit, and I didn't enjoy being on the noobjetting team (I was using a PIC, you wouldn't catch me with a havoc, unless Nod have lots of arties at a distance) and I didn't enjoy being on the team that worked together, soundly beat our opponent up, and then lose due to an exploit and a timer that is just too short. The point of the last paragraph is, using this bug to win is not restricted to clanwars, by a long way.
trooprm02 wrote on Tue, 25 September 2007 11:22 Um, I dont really agree with this "points fix" idea, but it does balance out public server gameplay (in bigger servers).My concern: -Smaller servers (which includes clanwars) -A few gameplay issuses When's the last time you played a clanwar? You've never participated in the league apart from losing a few odd games here and there, so stfu please. I know you love the attention acting like some clanwars pro on this forum full of noobs, but the only reason people over at clanwars know about you is because you make a fool out of yourself on this forum right here. www.damirworld.com
Thank you BlackIntel--this is a great thing.
fix what whiskey said and then i think you got youreself something decent... but its abit late TBFH. and 5 yrs into a game you guys still cant make an anticheat programe.. holyshit
SoQReaL wrote on Wed, 26 September 2007 12:19 fix what whiskey said and then i think you got youreself something decent... but its abit late TBFH. and 5 yrs into a game you guys still cant make an anticheat programe.. holyshit I don't see you doing a better job either. Now I could start a flame war here, but I won't, just please GTFO of this topic, ok?
Real is basically the trooprm02 of clanwars...just ignore that idiot, he got banned from clanwars not once, but twice...now he posts here.
johndoe is the guy who thinks hes 100% perfect and guess what hes a nazi... ohsnap
EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Wed, 26 September 2007 10:48 SoQReaL wrote on Wed, 26 September 2007 12:19 fix what whiskey said and then i think you got youreself something decent... but its abit late TBFH. and 5 yrs into a game you guys still cant make an anticheat programe.. holyshit I don't see you doing a better job either. Now I could start a flame war here, but I won't, just please GTFO of this topic, ok? im not the nerd youre the nerd who makes those shitty things that end up not working. and guess what youre doing a shitty job face it.
since when aren't you a nerd? you're still reading every post in the clanwars forum you're banned of and begging people to post for you and spoony to unban you...so sad black intel is actually developing programs like biatch that have caught cheaters like your buddy soqashy...but perhaps thats the reason why you hate him
Crimson wrote on Tue, 25 September 2007 11:54 trooprm02 wrote on Tue, 25 September 2007 09:22 This is not just some random decision to be made, nor to be immediatly forced upon us right away, weight the cons, weight the pros, then base a decision on what the community thinks. The only real way I see this working, is if EVERYONE agrees to this, and not 1 person disagrees, and it becomes the new norm. If this doesn't happen, a reoccurance of what happened @ cw.cc will happen. We're not doing that. We have been evaluating the fix for over 2 months now (read the first post, duh)... and we're warning you about this fix well in advance of it being required. Oh, well I did read the post (obviosuly), and it read as if it was requried asap to continue beta testing the new ladder system, I guess we have some time. Still don't agree with it, because as this thread points out, alot of people disagree about what exactly it changes, so force-implimenting it wouldnt be a good idea. My main concern is still just what happens differently on which maps. I'd say hold off for a bit longer
Actually, after testing a few games in a points fix server, the gameplay benefits outweight the cons. Thing is tho, this fix is still somewhat buggy, like the fact some 3rd shots do like 3x the damage issue
trooprm02 wrote on Wed, 26 September 2007 14:42 My main concern is still just what happens differently on which maps. I'd say hold off for a bit longer Volcano, Complex, Canyon and Islands are more or less unchanged. Field, Under and Walls Flying are re-balanced to fairness, rather than GDI being dominant. City Flying is more strategic in the sense that ramjets, while still deadly anti-air, don't do shit against tanks - therefore tanks are more valid and the paper-scissors-rock aspect Westwood were going for actually makes sense now. Furthermore, you get less money from sniping, which sets the skilled snipers apart from the n00bjetters - the n00bjetters will find themselves unable to replace their ramjet when they die. Also, one failed stank rush doesn't give GDI thousands of points anymore, thank god. Arguably Mesa is slightly unfair in Nod's favour now, although the jury's still out on that one. Hourglass - not sure, but let's be honest, it's a pretty poor map anyway, points fix or no
SoQReaL wrote on Wed, 26 September 2007 18:23 EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Wed, 26 September 2007 10:48 SoQReaL wrote on Wed, 26 September 2007 12:19 fix what whiskey said and then i think you got youreself something decent... but its abit late TBFH. and 5 yrs into a game you guys still cant make an anticheat programe.. holyshit I don't see you doing a better job either. Now I could start a flame war here, but I won't, just please GTFO of this topic, ok? im not the nerd youre the nerd who makes those shitty things that end up not working. and guess what youre doing a shitty job face it. Well, call me a nerd, or what ever you like, but at least I have a social live, and besides that can be nice (in general, against people that aren't total fucktards) on the internatz. Something that you have problems with. So maybe you're not a nerd, but you aren not a social friendly guy either. I know I am.
trooprm02 wrote on Wed, 26 September 2007 15:33 Actually, after testing a few games in a points fix server, the gameplay benefits outweight the cons. Thing is tho, this fix is still somewhat buggy, like the fact some 3rd shots do like 3x the damage issue Hourglass aint a poor map in pubs servs where hill camping is allowed, like 'king of the hill' fights, but for cw's, your right (as HG always has been a crap map for that).
Spoony wrote on Wed, 26 September 2007 15:58 trooprm02 wrote on Wed, 26 September 2007 14:42 My main concern is still just what happens differently on which maps. I'd say hold off for a bit longer Volcano, Complex, Canyon and Islands are more or less unchanged. Field, Under and Walls Flying are re-balanced to fairness, rather than GDI being dominant. City Flying is more strategic in the sense that ramjets, while still deadly anti-air, don't do shit against tanks - therefore tanks are more valid and the paper-scissors-rock aspect Westwood were going for actually makes sense now. Furthermore, you get less money from sniping, which sets the skilled snipers apart from the n00bjetters - the n00bjetters will find themselves unable to replace their ramjet when they die. Also, one failed stank rush doesn't give GDI thousands of points anymore, thank god. Arguably Mesa is slightly unfair in Nod's favour now, although the jury's still out on that one. Hourglass - not sure, but let's be honest, it's a pretty poor map anyway, points fix or no Hourglass goes in nod favour aswell. GDI can't get as many points as nod can (1 nod chem warrior=gdi harvy=dead), gets a quick arty on hill, G?g.
I dunno, I always found GDI to be very strong mid-late game Hourglass, because of Mammoths on the hill. Get a couple of them up there and they basically kill all Artillery and infantry with homing Tusk Missiles. Stealth Tanks work good as a counter, because they can trade missiles with the Mammoths from behind the hill, and can strafe about whereas the Mammoths just get hit... but if the GDI has PICs up there, they can't kill them like the Mammoths can kill Raveshaws. And the Mammoths can shoot the Obelisk from the hill. Without the points issue to worry about, I would expect GDI Mammoth Tanks to really dominate Hourglass. Especially in larger games where there's no chance of getting in around the sides. It might end up being fairly balanced in the sense that Nod has a better shot at taking control early, with GDI getting hard to stop if they can hold off the Artillery for long enough.
JohnDoe wrote on Wed, 26 September 2007 11:50 since when aren't you a nerd? you're still reading every post in the clanwars forum you're banned of and begging people to post for you and spoony to unban you...so sad black intel is actually developing programs like biatch that have caught cheaters like your buddy soqashy...but perhaps thats the reason why you hate him youre so fucking wrong... i dont beg? u dipshit im askin so i can flame like you do? youre sad! i never said anything about biatch? i said rengaurd.. fuckin retarded german. go sit back in youre corner SS
SoQReaL wrote on Wed, 26 September 2007 23:52 JohnDoe wrote on Wed, 26 September 2007 11:50 since when aren't you a nerd? you're still reading every post in the clanwars forum you're banned of and begging people to post for you and spoony to unban you...so sad black intel is actually developing programs like biatch that have caught cheaters like your buddy soqashy...but perhaps thats the reason why you hate him youre so fucking wrong... i dont beg? u dipshit im askin so i can flame like you do? youre sad! i never said anything about biatch? i said rengaurd.. fuckin retarded german. go sit back in youre corner SS This is the wrong thread for this man, you have a problem with JD then take it to PM. Im tired of reading yours and his posts.
john doe is 100% correct about everything
SoQReaL wrote on Wed, 26 September 2007 23:52 JohnDoe wrote on Wed, 26 September 2007 11:50 since when aren't you a nerd? you're still reading every post in the clanwars forum you're banned of and begging people to post for you and spoony to unban you...so sad black intel is actually developing programs like biatch that have caught cheaters like your buddy soqashy...but perhaps thats the reason why you hate him youre so fucking wrong... i dont beg? u dipshit im askin so i can flame like you do? youre sad! i never said anything about biatch? i said rengaurd.. fuckin retarded german. go sit back in youre corner SS ANd BI are part of BHS, who make Renguard. I return to my favourite saying; Read. Learn. Post. (Ignore button)
good bugfix. nearly every guy buying a 1000cred soldier buys a noobjet just because he can run havoc on inf/ligthveh andeven without damage can get loads of points from thick armor. Hate those guys. whole day runing around and hit everything crosshair turns red without tactic and thinking (yes there are some good havoc/sakuras) AND helping their team with points while a good player who wants to kill base/work with veh get n00bed for teamhampering cause he give them loads of points. Reff is now a really worth. Without it you get a good disadvantage like loosing the other buildings. and if you loose your reff early and your base get filled up with tanks those machingunsoldiers never help you. it takes to long to get good anti tank inv without damaging those tanks. A flamethrower needs more skill to do damage yes, but is much more worth.
trooprm02 wrote on Wed, 26 September 2007 16:39 Spoony wrote on Wed, 26 September 2007 15:58 trooprm02 wrote on Wed, 26 September 2007 14:42 My main concern is still just what happens differently on which maps. I'd say hold off for a bit longer Volcano, Complex, Canyon and Islands are more or less unchanged. Field, Under and Walls Flying are re-balanced to fairness, rather than GDI being dominant. City Flying is more strategic in the sense that ramjets, while still deadly anti-air, don't do shit against tanks - therefore tanks are more valid and the paper-scissors-rock aspect Westwood were going for actually makes sense now. Furthermore, you get less money from sniping, which sets the skilled snipers apart from the n00bjetters - the n00bjetters will find themselves unable to replace their ramjet when they die. Also, one failed stank rush doesn't give GDI thousands of points anymore, thank god. Arguably Mesa is slightly unfair in Nod's favour now, although the jury's still out on that one. Hourglass - not sure, but let's be honest, it's a pretty poor map anyway, points fix or no Hourglass goes in nod favour aswell. GDI can't get as many points as nod can (1 nod chem warrior=gdi harvy=dead), gets a quick arty on hill, G?g. Awesome tactic right there, troop...fuckin idiot. Mesa definitely doesn't favor Nod in smaller games...we won a 3v3 by about 4000 points although we lost our AGT at the start and only killed their hand with 10 minutes to go. In those huge public servers Nod seems to have an advantage on most maps because Arts are usually the units that deal the most damage to buildings in games and that's the only way you get points with the fix (which is a good thing). GDI now needs teamwork as well, not lone Havocs pointwhoring.
CarrierII wrote on Thu, 27 September 2007 09:47 SoQReaL wrote on Wed, 26 September 2007 23:52 JohnDoe wrote on Wed, 26 September 2007 11:50 since when aren't you a nerd? you're still reading every post in the clanwars forum you're banned of and begging people to post for you and spoony to unban you...so sad black intel is actually developing programs like biatch that have caught cheaters like your buddy soqashy...but perhaps thats the reason why you hate him youre so fucking wrong... i dont beg? u dipshit im askin so i can flame like you do? youre sad! i never said anything about biatch? i said rengaurd.. fuckin retarded german. go sit back in youre corner SS ANd BI are part of BHS, who make Renguard. I return to my favourite saying; Read. Learn. Post. (Ignore button) So you still havent managed to make a anti-cheat programme after 5 yrs? if i was you i would quit wilst youre ahead. go speak to the guy who made punkbuster least that shit works.
trooprm02 wrote on Wed, 26 September 2007 23:39 Hourglass goes in nod favour aswell. GDI can't get as many points as nod can (1 nod chem warrior=gdi harvy=dead), gets a quick arty on hill, G?g. Um, the problem with that is everyone who's interested in helping the team will rush the hill and harvesters at the beginning of the game, since it's practically the only way you CAN help the team on Hourglass before tanks are afforded. What's more, GDI can get an MRLS up there before the first arty does, and while the MRLS may not kill the arty it can at least keep the arty off your PP until meds come into play.
Sorry Real, but PB is its own can o' worms, FYI.
BI isn't "part of" BHS... we are partners.
Apologies for the minor error. The ignore button is remaining pressed.
Spoony wrote on Thu, 27 September 2007 06:21 trooprm02 wrote on Wed, 26 September 2007 23:39 Hourglass goes in nod favour aswell. GDI can't get as many points as nod can (1 nod chem warrior=gdi harvy=dead), gets a quick arty on hill, G?g. Um, the problem with that is everyone who's interested in helping the team will rush the hill and harvesters at the beginning of the game, since it's practically the only way you CAN help the team on Hourglass before tanks are afforded. What's more, GDI can get an MRLS up there before the first arty does, and while the MRLS may not kill the arty it can at least keep the arty off your PP until meds come into play. if 2v2 (or more), gdi can get to ob (without backwalking) tho too.
Meh, Hourglass is well balanced on marathon servers, the guys who arty whore will get a mvp mostly, not that they will actually cause a boost to the winning, as GDI mostly just has some1 repping the ref. As mostly Nod will rush with stanks or a light tank mass ( mostly fails ) GDI tends to mass rush or mammy, but overall, on Marathon servers its balanced (7 hour games ftw, and then being in it from start ) Naders are also good though
trooprm02 wrote on Thu, 27 September 2007 16:36 Spoony wrote on Thu, 27 September 2007 06:21 trooprm02 wrote on Wed, 26 September 2007 23:39 Hourglass goes in nod favour aswell. GDI can't get as many points as nod can (1 nod chem warrior=gdi harvy=dead), gets a quick arty on hill, G?g. Um, the problem with that is everyone who's interested in helping the team will rush the hill and harvesters at the beginning of the game, since it's practically the only way you CAN help the team on Hourglass before tanks are afforded. What's more, GDI can get an MRLS up there before the first arty does, and while the MRLS may not kill the arty it can at least keep the arty off your PP until meds come into play. if 2v2 (or more), gdi can get to ob (without backwalking) tho too. no duh.. they can do that on almost every map LOL
Crimson wrote on Thu, 27 September 2007 15:56 BI isn't "part of" BHS... we are partners. That, and Crimson, I know it's not your style, but since the importance of this thread, could you remove SoQReal's posts from this topic? (And all post replying at him?)
Dutch Neon wrote on Thu, 27 September 2007 16:06 Meh, Hourglass is well balanced on marathon servers, the guys who arty whore will get a mvp mostly, not that they will actually cause a boost to the winning, as GDI mostly just has some1 repping the ref. Forcing GDI players to be stuck in the ref/PP all game is a HUGE boost to winning... firstly the mass of points, secondly tank rushes on the AGT are far more likely to work when a chunk of GDI's stuck at the back of the base where they can't do shit about it without risking losing the PP. trooprm02 wrote if 2v2 (or more), gdi can get to ob (without backwalking) tho too. yes, and that goes against your earlier statement, since GDI has another infantry option and Nod doesn't... yet one single Nod player will easily kill the harv without any repercussions from GDI, apparently. If every game of Hourglass you've played was against people who always shotgun fight in the tunnels, then I forgive you